/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-06-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jun 06 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.100.60) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  5. # [00:07] <Hixie> what happened to that guy who was looking at the two-way networking thing
  6. # [00:08] <othermaciej> I don't know
  7. # [00:08] <othermaciej> he seemed to be on a good track
  8. # [00:09] <annevk> someone with a nick of closure asked about that earlier today
  9. # [00:11] <annevk> he was going gog work on http://code.google.com/soc/2008/esos/about.html
  10. # [00:11] <annevk> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080605#l-298
  11. # [00:11] <othermaciej> that might be him (can't remember)
  12. # [00:12] <annevk> s/going/doing/
  13. # [00:13] <annevk> apparently the ES Operating System is implementing HTML5 as well
  14. # [00:13] <annevk> per http://code.google.com/p/es-operating-system/
  15. # [00:14] <Hixie> well i'm sure the extra 3 users we'll get from that will be great :-P
  16. # [00:14] <annevk> i guess it has some potential, otherwise google wouldn't sponsor it, right?
  17. # [00:14] <othermaciej> Hixie: zomg you're ignoring implementors!!!111
  18. # [00:14] <gsnedders> What on earth?
  19. # [00:15] <gsnedders> That seems crazy.
  20. # [00:15] <Hixie> othermaciej: hey if they send feedback i'll be all over it :-)
  21. # [00:15] <Hixie> annevk: it's a very interesting research project, for sure
  22. # [00:15] <annevk> maybe we should get gog money for html5lib next year
  23. # [00:16] <Hixie> i can certainly push for you to be accepted if you do a SoC submission
  24. # [00:16] <annevk> s/money/resources/
  25. # [00:16] <Hixie> i have no idea if the people who make these decisions put any weight on my opinion, though
  26. # [00:16] * gsnedders ponders
  27. # [00:16] <Hixie> :-)
  28. # [00:16] <gsnedders> No, I'm not 18 by then
  29. # [00:16] <gsnedders> Which makes any thoughts entirely irrelevant
  30. # [00:16] <Hixie> gsnedders: can you partake in GHOP?
  31. # [00:17] <annevk> a new version of html5lib written in C/C++ with Python bindings :)
  32. # [00:17] <gsnedders> Hixie: If it weren't for the fact I've never even heard of GHOP :)
  33. # [00:18] <gsnedders> Hixie: Yeah, seemingly, if it runs again
  34. # [00:19] <gsnedders> Hixie: Now, if it weren't for the fact that the dollar sucks so badly atm :(
  35. # [00:20] <Philip`> annevk: Should a C version provide all the features that html5lib does, particularly in terms of the varieties of treebuilder?
  36. # [00:21] <gsnedders> Now, g'nite y'all
  37. # [00:22] <Hixie> Philip`: depends if it's a c version exposed to python or a c version exposed to c
  38. # [00:22] <Hixie> Philip`: presumably, it would expose whatever is conventional for that platform
  39. # [00:25] <Hixie> onbeforeprint and onafterprint
  40. # [00:25] <Hixie> opinions?
  41. # [00:25] <Hixie> othermaciej?
  42. # [00:25] <annevk> i haven't seen any requests for them
  43. # [00:25] <roc> i've had requests for them
  44. # [00:25] <annevk> well, a few actually
  45. # [00:26] <Hixie> there are definitely requests
  46. # [00:26] <Hixie> the question is whether @media is a better answer
  47. # [00:26] <roc> seems like anywhere a page has a "print" link, onbeforeprint would be useful ... and there are plenty of those
  48. # [00:26] <roc> I don't think we should expect CSS to provide a total solution always
  49. # [00:26] <Hixie> so i should add them
  50. # [00:26] <Hixie> okie dokie
  51. # [00:27] <Hixie> the next question is how should they work
  52. # [00:27] * roc ducks out
  53. # [00:27] <othermaciej> Hixie: yes?
  54. # [00:27] <Hixie> if we expect interop with IE, it seems that they require UAs to synchronously snapshot the DOM and styles
  55. # [00:27] <Hixie> othermaciej: see two lines above where i said your name, to here
  56. # [00:27] <othermaciej> oh the print events?
  57. # [00:27] <othermaciej> I have no idea what they do
  58. # [00:28] <annevk> yeah, and Access control review while you're at it :)
  59. # [00:28] <roc> why do these events require DOM snapshotting?
  60. # [00:28] <Hixie> it appears they fire just before and just after the DOM is snapshotted
  61. # [00:28] <Hixie> roc: window.print() fires the events but isn't synchronous (i.e. it returns straight away and the printing UI is async)
  62. # [00:28] <Hixie> in IE, at least
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  64. # [00:29] <roc> in Gecko window.print() is synchronous
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  66. # [00:29] <roc> so I don't see that onbeforeprint is introducing a new requirement
  67. # [00:29] <Hixie> hm, fair enough
  68. # [00:29] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.100.60)
  69. # [00:30] <roc> except for the requirement that we not crash when onbeforeprint does something insane, but that's normal
  70. # [00:35] <annevk> in Opera print() doesn't work unless invoked through some user generated thingie
  71. # [00:36] <roc> so? That's why onbeforeprint is useful
  72. # [00:37] <annevk> I mean that you need onclick=print() to make it work
  73. # [00:38] <annevk> user initiated event is probably a better word (not sure if event types are restricted)
  74. # [00:39] <annevk> both events are probably useful in case the user uses UI to activate the print dialog
  75. # [00:41] <Hixie> trusted interaction event i think is the most accurate term
  76. # [00:41] <Hixie> since you don't want an author-dispatched click event to do it either
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  80. # [00:57] <Dashiva> What. How is debugging JS and CSS easier in XHTML? It's the exact opposite if you want to do the proper XML way...
  81. # [00:58] <jgraham_> Would anyone like to try a test package of html5lib-0.11? http://james.html5.org/temp/html5lib-0.11.zip I think it might be broken in some obscure way but it might just by some sort of icky setuptools residue on my system
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  84. # [01:01] <Philip`> jgraham_: It unzips and installs and runs the README example alright for me
  85. # [01:01] <jgraham_> Can you run the tests?
  86. # [01:01] <smedero> same here. os x 10.5.3... running some of the tests now
  87. # [01:02] <Philip`> jgraham_: "python setup.py test" gives 2 errors
  88. # [01:02] <jgraham_> Ah, it is broken then. OK, I'll have to sort that out tomorrow
  89. # [01:02] <Philip`> ERROR: runTest (test_treewalkers.TestCase) ---- TypeError: runTest() takes exactly 6 arguments (1 given)
  90. # [01:02] <smedero> same.
  91. # [01:02] <Philip`> ERROR: test_chardet (test_encoding.Html5EncodingTestCase) ---- IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: './testdata/encoding/chardet/test_big5.txt'
  92. # [01:02] <smedero> (i only get that one error actually)
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  94. # [01:03] <jgraham_> Thanks for checking (I got the same errors)
  95. # [01:04] <jgraham_> (but I'm not sure why, especially the runTest() takes exactly 6 arguments one)
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  99. # [01:10] <jgraham_> Hmm, it looks like the test data isn't being packaged up properly
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  102. # [01:23] <MikeSmith> jgraham_: I can test html5lib if you still need testing
  103. # [01:23] <jgraham_> MikeSmith: I think I've just found the problem I know about
  104. # [01:23] <MikeSmith> OK
  105. # [01:24] <jgraham_> I'll upload a new build in a minute then go to bed :)
  106. # [01:24] <Philip`> I can probably test on Python 2.3 if you care :-)
  107. # [01:28] <jgraham_> MikeSmith: btw, Bugzilla sounds like a good idea. It would be cool if we could get the UI to encourage people to write RFE-type proposals in the use-case/solutions style that Hixie has tried to encourage
  108. # [01:28] <Hixie> good luck
  109. # [01:28] <Hixie> it would be nice to have a single place i can go to where i can just go down the list of all feedback the spec has received and just deal with them one by one
  110. # [01:28] <Philip`> Sounds like an attempt at a technical solution to a social problem :-)
  111. # [01:29] <Hixie> public-html isn't working for this purpose, sadly (unlike whatwg, which has worked quite well)
  112. # [01:32] <jgraham_> Philip`: ? I think UI that encourages useful behaviour is not really a technical solution to a social problem. Maybe bugzilla coud be accused of being a technical solution to a social problem
  113. # [01:33] <othermaciej_> some social problems are well-solved by technical solutions
  114. # [01:33] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  115. # [01:33] <Hixie> Philip`: the page splitting seems to cut at poor points (e.g. look at where http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded.html#focus starts)
  116. # [01:33] <Hixie> voting is a technical problem to a social one
  117. # [01:33] <Hixie> so is money
  118. # [01:34] <Dashiva> And filtering email :)
  119. # [01:34] <othermaciej> voting is solving a social problem with a social problem
  120. # [01:34] <Hixie> my definition of "technical" may be a bit broad :-)
  121. # [01:35] <Dashiva> You have a social problem, and you think to yourself "I know, I'll use democracy." Then you have two problems.
  122. # [01:36] <othermaciej> money is a solution to the price calculation problem
  123. # [01:36] <othermaciej> so I'll buy that
  124. # [01:36] <othermaciej> (well, money + relatively free exchange)
  125. # [01:37] <Philip`> Hixie: Oops, that was probably meant to cut at #embedded0 instead of #embedded
  126. # [01:37] <othermaciej> Dashiva: yes, exactly
  127. # [01:39] <Hixie> Philip`: your script breaks the back button :-(
  128. # [01:40] <Philip`> jgraham_: I think my point was that the problem is people not providing detailed real use cases and balancedly presenting various possible solutions, and that seems far too complex and subtle a problem to solve by providing some labelled textareas
  129. # [01:41] <Philip`> Hixie: Is that only in the cases where you follow a broken link, and therefore it's better than just dumping you on the wrong page?
  130. # [01:41] <Hixie> any comments on the new text in this section?: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#print
  131. # [01:41] <Philip`> Also, is there any way to fix it, or are back buttons just fundamentally broken?
  132. # [01:42] <Hixie> Philip`: well i'm now using it to create multipage links (i find the right section in the big page, then stick "multipage/" in the uri and copy the result when giving links to people)
  133. # [01:42] <Hixie> Philip`: and then i can't get back to the big page easily :-)
  134. # [01:42] <Hixie> no idea how to fix it
  135. # [01:42] <Hixie> location.replace() maybe?
  136. # [01:42] <Philip`> Hixie: You need a slower web browser, so you can hit the back button twice
  137. # [01:43] <jgraham_> Philip`: Well obviously we can't force people to get things right but good UI can certainly make it more likely. Compare a blank textarea to a solution (better than the one that I was proposing) where you have a whole page with textareas labelled with things like "Use case: this should be a statement of a problem that you are trying to solve, without reference to the particular means of solving it (example)"
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  139. # [01:44] <Hixie> Philip`: my slower browsers can't handle the big html5 page :-/
  140. # [01:44] <Hixie> Philip`: .replace() should do it, iirc
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  142. # [01:45] <Hixie> i wish i knew why the annotation script didn't work in safari (editing seems to fail silently)
  143. # [01:45] <Dashiva> I wish I knew how to get an error console in safari
  144. # [01:48] <Hixie> the develop menu is supposedly able to do it
  145. # [01:48] <MikeSmith> yeah
  146. # [01:49] <Hixie> but the inspector thing can't handle the html5 spec
  147. # [01:49] <Hixie> so it doesn't help me much
  148. # [01:49] <MikeSmith> Develop -> Show error console
  149. # [01:49] <MikeSmith> Hixie: html5 spec in WI seems to work for me in Webkit nightly at least
  150. # [01:49] <MikeSmith> or did the last time I tried it
  151. # [01:50] <Hixie> for js debugging?
  152. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> ah
  153. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> no, have not tried that with html5 doc
  154. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> you mean for the js for the annotations?
  155. # [01:51] <Hixie> yeah
  156. # [01:51] * jgraham_ destroys his python installation by mistake
  157. # [01:51] <Hixie> editing annotations just seems to fail
  158. # [01:51] <jgraham_> this could be evidence that I should be asleep
  159. # [01:52] <MikeSmith> jgraham_: the sleep thing does help some
  160. # [01:52] <jgraham_> html5lib-0.11 will have to wait for the morning. Goodnight :)
  161. # [01:52] <Hixie> nn
  162. # [01:52] <MikeSmith> 'night
  163. # [01:53] <Dashiva> Where's this develop bar thing? I can't seem to find it in the menus or the preferences.
  164. # [01:54] <Dashiva> Safari on mac only thing?
  165. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> maybe only mac-only, I dunno
  166. # [01:56] <hdh> there's a preference to display the Dev menu
  167. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> I have never tried Safari for windows
  168. # [01:56] <hasather> Dashiva: http://developer.apple.com/internet/safari/faq.html#anchor14
  169. # [01:58] <Dashiva> Nice. It tells me to add it to a file that doesn't exist. :)
  170. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> there's op
  171. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> an option in the UI also
  172. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> now
  173. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> or is in my Safari 3.1 on Mac at least
  174. # [01:59] <Dashiva> I got it now, I think
  175. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> Preferences/Advanced/Show Develop menu in menu bar
  176. # [02:00] <Dashiva> It was at the very bottom of the advanced preferences
  177. # [02:01] <Dashiva> It would've been a bit worrying if manual config file editing actually was required :)
  178. # [02:01] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: it used to be
  179. # [02:02] * MikeSmith wishes Safari had a about:config or safari:config thing
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  184. # [02:15] * Philip` updates the multipage thing, but then realises it's probably a bad idea that http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded.html is now 404
  185. # [02:15] <Hixie> why?
  186. # [02:16] <Hixie> crap, forgot to change the subject line of my last message
  187. # [02:16] <Philip`> Because I copied your link (minus the fragment bit) and then it didn't work (and didn't redirect me)
  188. # [02:17] <Philip`> Does /(?:...)/ work in all JS implementations?
  189. # [02:17] <Hixie> it should work :-)
  190. # [02:19] <MikeSmith> Hixie: so I see that YouTube is adding a way for users to put text annotations in their videos
  191. # [02:20] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.68.118)
  192. # [02:23] <Philip`> Hixie: Should be split more sensibly now - http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded.html is no longer the top of a page
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  194. # [02:23] <Philip`> Also it uses window.location.replace(), which avoids the problems with Safari's broken back button
  195. # [02:26] <Philip`> (The section splitting is partly manually defined now (because that's the only reasonable way I can find to make sure the page gets split sensibly into 100-200KB chunks), so someone should poke me if it seems to be doing something silly and splitting in the wrong places)
  196. # [02:28] <Hixie> the 404 fixing didn't work on that link
  197. # [02:28] <Hixie> but cool
  198. # [02:28] <Hixie> oh, it worked on reload
  199. # [02:28] <Hixie> weird
  200. # [02:28] <Philip`> Probably caching the script?
  201. # [02:28] <Hixie> caching issue yeah
  202. # [02:28] <Philip`> Opera seems particularly bad at that
  203. # [02:30] <Hixie> ok i need a break
  204. # [02:30] <Hixie> bbl
  205. # [02:38] <MikeSmith> dear lazyweb
  206. # [02:39] <MikeSmith> or rather Dear LazyWags
  207. # [02:39] <MikeSmith> Question -
  208. # [02:40] <MikeSmith> If if want to truncate some text down to some reasonable but arbitrary length that's appropriate for putting in an e-mail Subject header
  209. # [02:40] <MikeSmith> ...what should length be?
  210. # [02:41] <Philip`> My mail client shows about 50 characters of subject
  211. # [02:41] <Dashiva> After a few levels of replies, the nesting hides the subject anyway :)
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  213. # [02:41] <MikeSmith> do any RFCs or anything authoritative elsewhere advise about Subject headers over a certain length
  214. # [02:42] <Philip`> Gmail shows about 90
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  216. # [02:42] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: this would be for automated public-html-diffs mail that nobody will be responding to anyway
  217. # [02:42] <MikeSmith> Philip`: thanks
  218. # [02:42] <Philip`> Both truncate longer messages, so it's reasonable to expect clients to truncate appropriately
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  220. # [02:43] <Philip`> so it's probably reasonable to send significantly more and trust the client
  221. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> I think the RFCs say that content of headers must/should be wrapped if it longer than a certain number of chars
  222. # [02:43] <Philip`> where "significantly more" might be 128 to the nearest binary order of magnitude
  223. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> but I can't remember that the number is
  224. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> for this case, I don't need all that must of it preserved
  225. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> maybe I should just pick a number
  226. # [02:45] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Do you mean http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2822.html talking about 78-character lines?
  227. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> Philip`: aha
  228. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> yeah, prolly
  229. # [02:45] <Philip`> MikeSmith: I imagine it's hard to do this without picking a number :-)
  230. # [02:46] <MikeSmith> :)
  231. # [02:46] <MikeSmith> I meant pick a number without worrying about the header-wrapping thing or what clients do with longer subjects and trying to max out to what they can handle or whatever
  232. # [02:47] * MikeSmith used to did some work on e-mail delivery systems when he was at Openwave but his RFC-memory sucks
  233. # [02:47] <Philip`> I suppose you could have some heuristic that assigns a Gaussian-ish weight distribution centered on some particular region and sum that with some spikes at nice cut points like the ends of sentences, and pick whatever point has the highest weight
  234. # [02:48] <Philip`> but then you'd still have to pick a center for that distribution, so it doesn't solve the indecisiveness problem
  235. # [02:48] <MikeSmith> heh
  236. # [02:50] <MikeSmith> well, I'll go with 78, because I have seen some mail systems and clients that muff up the unwrapping and end up inserting some non-visible or other funked-up character in long unwrapped subjects
  237. # [02:51] <Dashiva> Then you should make sure it's 78 bytes and not characters, in case the diff starts using fancy code points
  238. # [02:52] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: only way it would in this case is if Hixie starts putting such into his svn commit descriptions
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  241. # [02:57] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i recommend 80 - length('Subject ')
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  243. # [02:58] * Hixie will not use non-ascii
  244. # [02:59] <Hixie> ok, xml:base vs <base>
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  246. # [03:01] <MikeSmith> Hixie: thanks
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  290. # [08:46] <met_> http://www.wait-till-i.com/2008/06/05/north280-bring-keynote-to-the-web/
  291. # [08:46] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  292. # [08:47] <met_> He told thay made abstract language for canvas, svg and flash
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  297. # [09:43] <Lachy> MikeSmith, yt?
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  300. # [09:56] <annevk> wow, that's impressive ( http://280slides.com/Editor/ )
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  312. # [10:39] <annevk> Hixie, shouldn't the events be called beforeprint and afterprint?
  313. # [10:40] <annevk> Hixie, IE prefixes all their event names with "on" and we're not calling the focus event onfocus either...
  314. # [10:40] * Philip` sees http://hackademix.net/2008/06/05/site-security-policy-aka-content-restrictions/
  315. # [10:40] <annevk> Hixie, of course, the Window object should probably define two event handler DOM attributes called onbeforeprint and onafterprint
  316. # [10:43] * Philip` also sees http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/06/05/the-next-gen-web-html5-will-we-ever-see-a-real-standard/
  317. # [10:44] <annevk> wow, comparing HTML5 with HTML 3.0 misses the point entirely
  318. # [10:44] <hsivonen> uh oh. we're now on the TechCrunch radar
  319. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> Lachy: here now
  320. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> Lachy: btw, in hindsight, I think you should have dropped some Crockford into your @media presentatin
  321. # [10:46] <hsivonen> are we going into the deadpool yet?
  322. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> in one of his presentations, Thomas Roessler has this great clip of Crockford
  323. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> where Crockford says that from what he's seen 99% (or something) of the JS he's seen on the Web is crap
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  326. # [10:50] <Lachy> MikeSmith, did Marcos ask you to add standardssuck.org to PlanetHTML5?
  327. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> Lachy: yeah
  328. # [10:50] <Lachy> ok
  329. # [10:51] <Philip`> "XHTML1.1/HTML4.01 do *not* need updating, they need support. The W3C should be working with and promoting their existing good specs (listed) and not inventing new specs (XForms, widgets) or creating new versions of perfectly good standards (HTML5)."
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  331. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> but I forgot about it in the space of the one hour since he asked me
  332. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> I will do now
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  335. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> Philip`: who say that?
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  338. # [10:53] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Some TechCrunch commenter
  339. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> Whoever said it, I wonder if he knows about the requirement that uttering the phrase "HTML4.01 do *not* need updating" (or similar) requires him to take an extra big hit on his crack pipe when he says it.
  340. # [10:56] <Lachy> luckily for him, we're not updating HTML 4.01. We're just creating a new standard to replace it.
  341. # [10:58] <annevk> Lachy, I made some small changes to your post on standardssuck.org
  342. # [10:58] <hsivonen> :-( at comment #17 at techcrunch
  343. # [10:58] <Philip`> Peter Kasting says: "I’m beginning to wonder how much research was actually done for this article." - me too :-)
  344. # [10:59] <Lachy> annevk, ok
  345. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> standardscuk.org added to planet html5
  346. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> but only marcos post getting through the filter
  347. # [11:03] <Lachy> wow, "...and an under representation of independent web developers and users". Ironically, there are more web developers involved with the development of HTML5, than any previous version.
  348. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> because only marcos exercised the secret special magic
  349. # [11:03] <Lachy> what's the special magic? an "HTML" tag?
  350. # [11:04] <Lachy> *html5 tag
  351. # [11:04] <hsivonen> Peter Kasting++
  352. # [11:08] <MikeSmith> heh
  353. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> most useful comment on that blog entry is, by far, "Is it just me, or does the Silverlight logo look like a pair of panties?"
  354. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> Lachy: damn, who told you the secret?
  355. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> I think I'm gonna have to change it now
  356. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> btw, you guys are breaking some new ground in geek waggish-ness with that standardssuck stuff
  357. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> a friend of mine told me to tell you that he hopes you keep it up
  358. # [11:22] <Lachy> MikeSmith, what do you mean?
  359. # [11:23] <Lachy> cool
  360. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> and that you should insert more irreverance
  361. # [11:24] <Lachy> MikeSmith, we'll save that for when we talk about specs we don't like
  362. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I mean that some of this material is ripe to for picking as far as poking fun some of it goes
  363. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> I mean, that's what my friend means
  364. # [11:24] <Lachy> like RDF, GRDDL, XHTML2, Semantic Web nonsense
  365. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> the one who asked me to pass it on
  366. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I'm not naming any name here
  367. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> take your pick
  368. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> I think I also remember my friend suggested sprinkling the phrases like "architectural astronautics" and "a plan to build a rocket ship to the moon" in reference to particular specs or groups
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  371. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> I personally would not condone that, though
  372. # [11:27] <hsivonen> hmm. will the next standards sucks episode be hosted by Steve Faulkner?
  373. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> my friend also mentioned something about he wondered if he could find a way to contribute to the standardssuck effort anonymously in some way
  374. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> Lachy: do you have favorite comedy film or TV comedy or animation?
  375. # [11:30] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: perhaps your friend could appear as a black silhouette with a heavily DSP-distorted voice
  376. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> heh
  377. # [11:30] <Lachy> MikeSmith, why?
  378. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> OK, I'll pass that on to him
  379. # [11:30] <annevk> hsivonen, heh :)
  380. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> Lachy: just wondering
  381. # [11:31] <annevk> hsivonen, how it currently went is not at all intentional
  382. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> I mean what your perspective on comedy is
  383. # [11:31] <Lachy> MikeSmith, I like lots of different shows. At the moment, I'm watching Friends cause I bought the DVDs in London
  384. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> one of my colleagues on the team really like Ren & Stimpy but I never found it very funny myself
  385. # [11:32] <annevk> Eric Cartman <<
  386. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> cartman++
  387. # [11:32] <Lachy> Simpsons is still one of the best cartoons ever
  388. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> Homer Simpson should be on the US 1 dollar bill
  389. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> he is the perfect representation of America and its values and collective intelligence
  390. # [11:33] <Lachy> of course, he deserves it more than Washington does!
  391. # [11:33] <Lachy> (it is George Washington on the $1 note now, right?)
  392. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> yeah
  393. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> btw, the ss.org "Unbiased journalism on Web standards since May 2008" masthead slogan in particular is solid gold
  394. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> my friend said
  395. # [11:38] <annevk> thanks
  396. # [11:40] <Philip`> "Unbiased journalism on Web standards since <del>May</del><ins>June</ins> 2008"
  397. # [11:40] <Lachy> MikeSmith, who is this anonymous friend of yours?
  398. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> Lachy: he's a mouse in my pocket
  399. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> so to speak
  400. # [11:41] <Lachy> oh, Stuart Little? Cool!
  401. # [11:42] <annevk> Philip`?
  402. # [11:45] * hsivonen wonders what the business model of Cooliris, Inc. is (the makers of PicLens)
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  405. # [11:50] <Philip`> annevk: I think I was thinking of something along the lines of http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/03/19/
  406. # [11:50] * hsivonen reads the comments at http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2008/06/applying_svg_ef.html
  407. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> Philip`: that is classic
  408. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> it reminds me of course they have in the United State Marine Corps
  409. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> it's called "Your Ass from a Hole in the Ground: A Comparative Study"
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  413. # [11:59] <roc> enjoy
  414. # [11:59] <annevk> roc, quite cool stuff btw
  415. # [12:00] <roc> let me know if you can figure Chris Lilley out
  416. # [12:00] <roc> also, please cast votes for where you think this should be specced out
  417. # [12:01] * Philip` thinks the people on standardssuck.org need to work out what to look at when they're not talking
  418. # [12:03] <annevk> roc, maybe chris is saying that if you define the coordinate system for HTML (or anything other than SVG) you don't need new specs
  419. # [12:03] <annevk> (not sure about his other comments about things that you're doing wrong though...)
  420. # [12:03] <roc> defining the coordinate system for HTML *is* a new spec
  421. # [12:04] <roc> You also need to amend the parts of the SVG spec that say what 'filter', 'clip-path' and 'mask' apply to
  422. # [12:04] <annevk> true
  423. # [12:04] <annevk> the CSSWG is the best place, but probably only in theory
  424. # [12:05] <roc> ok
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  426. # [12:06] <hsivonen> CSSWG and WHATWG seem like potential candidates
  427. # [12:06] <roc> however, it's the SVG specs that need to be amended
  428. # [12:06] <hsivonen> coordinates for HTML rendering seem more like a CSS thing
  429. # [12:06] <roc> it's SVG behaviour that needs to be "reinterpreted"
  430. # [12:07] <roc> what a pain
  431. # [12:07] <roc> it would be simpler if Ian was the chair of all the working groups
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  437. # [12:08] <annevk> haha
  438. # [12:08] <annevk> if the WHATWG had a patent policy...
  439. # [12:09] <annevk> btw, I think I agree with dhyatt in that the simple stuff should probably be doable using a select set of CSS properties without requiring SVG fragments
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  443. # [12:10] <roc> I agree
  444. # [12:11] <roc> although we may not agree on what the "simple stuff" is
  445. # [12:12] <roc> the other thing I'm thinking about is how to handle this as a vendor extension
  446. # [12:12] <roc> it feels stupid to introduce -moz versions of the properties that are exactly the same as the standard properties except they apply to more stuff
  447. # [12:13] <annevk> there's precedent for simply putting your foot down in such cases
  448. # [12:13] <annevk> WebKit implements the multiple background stuff simply in 'background'
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  450. # [12:13] <Lachy> annevk, http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=73
  451. # [12:14] <annevk> (though i'd be nice if there was some document written up first)
  452. # [12:14] <roc> yeah
  453. # [12:14] <roc> I'll write it
  454. # [12:15] <annevk> Lachy, heh, nice, a transcript
  455. # [12:16] <annevk> Philip`, suggestions? it's troublesome :)
  456. # [12:16] <annevk> roc, cool
  457. # [12:17] <annevk> roc, btw, how do you handle script execution and such in the referenced documents?
  458. # [12:17] <roc> we don't handle external references yet
  459. # [12:18] <annevk> ah ok, I suppose that makes it easier
  460. # [12:18] <roc> and a lot less useful
  461. # [12:18] <annevk> yeah
  462. # [12:18] <roc> I hope we can add external references fairly soon
  463. # [12:18] <roc> I think at least initially we won't run script in referenced documents
  464. # [12:19] <roc> but I would like to provide a DOM API that provides access to the DOM of referenced documents
  465. # [12:20] <annevk> our "SVG as image" implementation doesn't do scripts either, but that's probably slightly different
  466. # [12:20] <roc> it's related
  467. # [12:20] * Philip` assumes it would be restricted to same-origin referenced documents
  468. # [12:20] <annevk> roc, at that point you get same-origin mess
  469. # [12:20] <annevk> hah
  470. # [12:20] <roc> sure
  471. # [12:20] <roc> doesn't Opera support general external references?
  472. # [12:20] <roc> I thought it did
  473. # [12:20] <hsivonen> IIRC, yes
  474. # [12:20] <annevk> true
  475. # [12:21] <annevk> i suppose those are different anyway
  476. # [12:21] <roc> the whole area is under-specified ... maybe you should write up what Opera does before we reverse-engineer it
  477. # [12:22] <annevk> e-mail ed@opera.com for that
  478. # [12:22] <annevk> he's lead of the SVG team and also does standards
  479. # [12:24] <roc> ok
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  481. # [12:24] <roc> the whole SVG WG has not been all that responsive to my questions
  482. # [12:25] <annevk> :(
  483. # [12:26] <annevk> they don't really have editor driven specs
  484. # [12:26] <annevk> so everything goes through the WG telcon it seems
  485. # [12:26] * Dashiva waits for a <Hixie> I told you so
  486. # [12:26] <roc> yeah
  487. # [12:27] <annevk> the CSS WG does have editor driven specs, but the process to agree upon doing a spec is lengthy
  488. # [12:27] <hsivonen> http://www.itscj.ipsj.or.jp/sc34/open/1037c.htm
  489. # [12:27] <hsivonen> what format is that?
  490. # [12:29] * hsivonen wonders if MS Office has anything to do with EOT
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  492. # [12:30] <annevk> the Open Font Format
  493. # [12:31] <annevk> "ISO/IEC 9541 is a standard of font information interchange and designed to be independent with concrete font
  494. # [12:31] <annevk> file format. The Open Font Format (ISO/IEC 14496-22) is a font file format specification that is based on
  495. # [12:31] <annevk> TrueType font file format. About the handling and utilization of the typographic properties stored in OFF font
  496. # [12:31] <annevk> file, ISO/IEC 14496-22 describes the implementations on Microsoft Windows or IBM OS/2 only. Therefore,
  497. # [12:31] <annevk> ISO/IEC 14496-22 does not define the method how to define a font resource in ISO/IEC 9541 architectures
  498. # [12:31] <annevk> from given OFF font file, because it is out of the scope. ISO/IEC 9541-4 is a standard to fill the gap between
  499. # [12:31] <annevk> OFF font file and font resource in ISO/IEC 9541."
  500. # [12:31] <annevk> -- http://www.itscj.ipsj.or.jp/sc34/open/1037.pdf
  501. # [12:31] <hsivonen> what's the point compared to .otf?
  502. # [12:32] <annevk> (it's funny that the link to the pdf file has the correct data but the incorrect metadata)
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  515. # [13:13] <annevk> oh, seems Hixie already fixed the event names, duh
  516. # [13:22] <Hixie> just did it now while reading scrollback
  517. # [13:23] <Hixie> roc_: while i am flattered by your proposal, i don't think i have the time :-P
  518. # [13:25] <roc_> well, it's like that old joke
  519. # [13:25] <roc_> first prize: chair of the WG
  520. # [13:25] <roc_> second prize: chair of two WGs
  521. # [13:25] * roc_ is now known as roc
  522. # [13:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: did you really mean to say 'id' (as opposed to 'name') under 'valid hashed reference'?
  523. # [13:27] <Hixie> roc: indeed
  524. # [13:27] <Hixie> hsivonen: i don't think i changed anything there, other than the term's name; should i have?
  525. # [13:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: isn't it supposed to point primarily to the name attribute now?
  526. # [13:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: since name is now the required attribute on map
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  528. # [13:29] * Hixie goes to actually read the part of hte spec hsivonen is talking about
  529. # [13:29] <Hixie> hm, yeah, that should be changed
  530. # [13:29] * Hixie goes to fix
  531. # [13:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks
  532. # [13:30] <Hixie> i'll change the term to "hash-name reference" while i'm at it
  533. # [13:31] <Hixie> lest i accidentally use it to refer to something expecting an id reference
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  552. # [15:04] * hsivonen reads http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/05/19-minutes.html
  553. # [15:07] <hsivonen> "Henri says they don't think that namespaces are important"
  554. # [15:08] <hsivonen> I don't recall saying exactly that. I think I've said that in retrospect, Namespaces wouldn't have been necessary.
  555. # [15:11] <annevk> i suppose you can e-mail www-tag to clarify, but it prolly doesn't matter much
  556. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> yeah
  557. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> that battle been won
  558. # [15:14] <hsivonen> I'll clarify my opinion if it comes up in the context of MathML and SVG (which is what I thought the context was initially until I realized how old the minutes were)
  559. # [15:14] <hsivonen> also, "I asked Henri and Anne if a new version of XmL that was as HTML friendly as possible would be acceptable to HTML WG, and they demurred."
  560. # [15:14] <hsivonen> demurred: showed a contradiction in legacy HTML and legacy XML requirements
  561. # [15:15] <annevk> yeah :/
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  565. # [15:34] <heycam> is 'this == evt.currentTarget' always true when an EventListener is invoked?
  566. # [15:35] <zcorpan_> Hixie: what about print preview and onbeforeprint?
  567. # [15:36] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: </noscript> fixed. thanks
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  569. # [15:37] <annevk> heycam, should be
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  571. # [15:39] <annevk> hmm, anyone with tips on how to implement dataset in JavaScript?
  572. # [15:42] <annevk> getters and setters don't seem to cover the case where someone gets an arbitrary property on an object or sets one
  573. # [15:43] <heycam> writing a whole custom [[Get]] and [[Put]] sounds like the way to go
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  575. # [15:59] <annevk> how do you go about that?
  576. # [16:12] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.atkinsfamily.ukonline.co.uk%2Fmayweek_2008.html&parser=xmldtd&laxtype=yes&showsource=yes says "Error: Attribute shape not allowed on XHTML element a at this point." when actually there's no shape attribute
  577. # [16:13] <hsivonen> Philip`: wow. That's weird. thanks
  578. # [16:13] <hsivonen> Philip`: hey! you are loading external entities
  579. # [16:13] <hsivonen> Philip`: so sure, there's an attribute shape
  580. # [16:14] <Philip`> hsivonen: Uh
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  582. # [16:14] <hsivonen> DTDs <3
  583. # [16:14] <Philip`> Do you mean there is a shape attribute on that a element?
  584. # [16:14] <hsivonen> Philip`: yeah, defaulted from the DTD
  585. # [16:15] <Philip`> Oh - that seems extremely stupid
  586. # [16:15] <hsivonen> there's a reason why that mode isn't the default :-)
  587. # [16:16] <Philip`> It works fine if I select the "XHTML 1.0 Strict, SVG 1.1, MathML 2.0 + IRI" preset
  588. # [16:16] <Philip`> just not with XHTML5 + ...
  589. # [16:17] <hsivonen> that's because shape is allowed in XHTML 1.0 but not in XHTML5
  590. # [16:17] <Philip`> Oh, right
  591. # [16:17] <Philip`> I think that almost makes sense
  592. # [16:19] <Philip`> But it is kind of confusing :-)
  593. # [16:19] <hsivonen> well, that's XML
  594. # [16:20] <Philip`> It's an attempt at validating a reasonably typical web page, and getting something crazy and seemingly inexplicable from it
  595. # [16:21] <hsivonen> should I add warnings whenever a DTD actually has an effect?
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  597. # [16:23] <Philip`> I want the DTD to have the effect of stopping the complaints about &ndash; etc since I know those are legimitate and not practical errors
  598. # [16:23] <Dashiva> Oh look, another group wanting XHR without window defined
  599. # [16:23] <hsivonen> Philip`: it seems to me you want the XML parser to default to Gecko emulation
  600. # [16:24] <hsivonen> I'd feel better about implementing Gecko emulation if it was a WHATWG spec
  601. # [16:24] <hsivonen> But I suppose I should do it anyway.
  602. # [16:26] <Philip`> I'm not sure what I want, except for it to say "this page (which happens to claim to be XHTML and I'm not going to bother telling the author to change to something else since that's a waste of time) is broken for these reasons (of which all the reasons are legitimate problems, and not stupid things like entities not quite being defined even though it'll work fine in practice)"
  603. # [16:28] <annevk> Dashiva, yeah, not sure what they're talking about
  604. # [16:28] <annevk> i'll deal with xhr feedback a bit later once it has stacked up some more
  605. # [16:35] <annevk> thanks to people doing copy and paste incorrectly HTML5 elements are now used in the wild: http://www.topxml.com/rbnews/XML/re-93299_HTML-5-and-a-different-kind-of-ruby-support.aspx
  606. # [16:35] <Philip`> <a rel="nofollow"udio>
  607. # [16:37] <annevk> nobody any idea on how to implement your custom [[Get]] and [[Set]] in JavaScript?
  608. # [16:39] <annevk> watch seems to have the same limitation as getters and setters
  609. # [16:42] <annevk> __noSuchMethod__ is closer
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  612. # [16:45] <annevk> mu
  613. # [16:46] <Dashiva> annevk: As far as I know [[Get]] would require catchalls (as in es4) or doing it in the implementation itself
  614. # [16:48] <annevk> :(
  615. # [16:48] <annevk> i had this idea that maybe making a dataset impl would be feasible
  616. # [16:48] <Dashiva> If you're willing to be really really really hackish...
  617. # [16:48] <annevk> yes? :)
  618. # [16:49] <Dashiva> Create the object on every element with data attributes on dom complete, then use mutation events on the dom to catch changes to those attributes to update the dataset, and use getters and setters to bridge the two
  619. # [16:50] <Dashiva> I'm not sure if the middle step is possible, though
  620. # [16:53] <Philip`> Element.prototype.__defineGetter__('dataset', function () { alert('Just use getAttribute("data-..."), because that\'s trivial and perfectly compatible with everything') });
  621. # [16:54] <Dashiva> Now I'm curious
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  623. # [16:55] * Dashiva goes to read dataset spec
  624. # [16:55] <annevk> that doesn't work for .dataset.x = "test"
  625. # [16:56] <annevk> which would create a data-x attribute with the value 'test'
  626. # [16:58] <Dashiva> Yeah, [[Get]] only
  627. # [16:59] <annevk> :/
  628. # [16:59] <Dashiva> of course, you can take it one step further and run a manual check on the object with a setInterval, but that's just evil
  629. # [17:00] <annevk> I thought of that but that's a) not performing well and b) doesn't work if you set using dataset and then get using getAttribute() directly after
  630. # [17:01] <Dashiva> The b) case I don't really want to care about. They should make up their mind :)
  631. # [17:02] <Philip`> They should just use [sg]etAttribute all the time :-)
  632. # [17:02] <Dashiva> Catchalls would be so nice
  633. # [17:02] <annevk> at least for this
  634. # [17:03] <annevk> Philip`, stop being so pragmatic
  635. # [17:03] <Dashiva> How many browsers support mutation events anyhow?
  636. # [17:03] <annevk> most?
  637. # [17:04] <Philip`> Does IE6 support mutation events?
  638. # [17:05] <Philip`> If not, then it's not very useful for a legacy-UA compatibility script :-p
  639. # [17:05] <Dashiva> Eh, none of the IEs support getters and setters anyhow :)
  640. # [17:05] <annevk> the script was more about seeing if this could actually work
  641. # [17:05] <annevk> but it seems that it can't
  642. # [17:06] <Dashiva> Just make setters for all legal strings up to 16 characters
  643. # [17:06] <Dashiva> ... on all nodes
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  646. # [17:08] <annevk> that was another idea i had, but that didn't scale
  647. # [17:08] <annevk> guess i'm glad i didn't miss anything obvious :)
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  670. # [18:41] <gsnedders> annevk: What should XHR.status return for an HTTP/0.9 response?
  671. # [18:41] <gsnedders> (that has no status code)
  672. # [18:41] <annevk> throw?
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  674. # [18:42] <gsnedders> annevk: Throw INVALID_STATE_ERR?
  675. # [18:42] <annevk> that's what the spec currently says
  676. # [18:44] <gsnedders> It just seems odd
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  678. # [18:44] <annevk> agreed
  679. # [18:45] <gsnedders> null is what I'd expect if it didn't exist and the object had a suitable state
  680. # [18:45] <annevk> or maybe just 0
  681. # [18:46] <annevk> or maybe HTTP should define what the status code is in that case :)
  682. # [18:46] <annevk> as in, if no status code is provided the status code is 200
  683. # [18:46] <annevk> that's prolly best
  684. # [18:47] * annevk goes back to his semi-sleepy state
  685. # [18:47] <gsnedders> annevk: Less drugs! :P
  686. # [18:49] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  687. # [18:50] <gsnedders> othermaciej: Happy B'day!
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  689. # [18:51] <othermaciej> thanks gsnedders
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  692. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> standardssuck needs a logo
  693. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> maybe the guy who created the Squirrelfish logo can make one
  694. # [18:53] <annevk> congrats othermaciej
  695. # [18:53] <annevk> MikeSmith, hehe
  696. # [18:53] <othermaciej> congrats on what?
  697. # [18:54] <annevk> othermaciej, your birthday, it seems :)
  698. # [18:54] <othermaciej> oh
  699. # [18:54] <othermaciej> thanks
  700. # [18:54] <othermaciej> though I'm not sure it's all that impressive to survive to 0x20
  701. # [18:54] <gsnedders> annevk: I've just managed to get -9 returned by .status
  702. # [18:55] <annevk> othermaciej, :)
  703. # [18:55] <annevk> gsnedders, impressive
  704. # [18:56] <gsnedders> othermaciej: I hope it's your birthday, seeming it claims that on Facebook ;P
  705. # [18:56] <gsnedders> annevk: "HTTP /1.1 200 OK" does all kinds of odd things.
  706. # [18:58] <gsnedders> annevk: Including giving .status = -9 in IE
  707. # [18:59] <annevk> oh, IE has all kinds of weird stuff with .status
  708. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: please provide your assessment of the following
  709. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> http://www.flickr.com/photos/goopymart/2411605231/
  710. # [19:00] <gsnedders> I need to provide assessment? Meh.
  711. # [19:00] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: WTF?
  712. # [19:00] <gsnedders> (that's my assessment)
  713. # [19:00] <othermaciej> gsnedders: it is indeed
  714. # [19:01] * MikeSmith finds fridge empty again, reduced to eating olives from jar
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  718. # [19:13] <gsnedders> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2008AprJun/0479.html — HTTP fun!
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  721. # [19:18] <annevk> HTTP is just as broken as the rest of the Web, it's just noticed by less people than the brokenness of HTML/CSS
  722. # [19:19] <annevk> MikeSmith, true that, I'm going to do some shopping
  723. # [19:22] <MikeSmith> annevk: after I deplete this jar of olives, I think only thing left will be to turn to rock soup
  724. # [19:23] <MikeSmith> minus the rocks
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  731. # [19:41] <Hixie> i'm amused at how dan and chris have just given up sending htmlwg status updates to the htmlcg list
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  734. # [19:53] <Dashiva> Hixie: For lack of content, or lack of interest, or something else?
  735. # [19:53] <Hixie> no idea
  736. # [19:53] <Hixie> just haven't seen updates in a long time
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  741. # [20:08] <annevk> maybe they don't attend the calls
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  743. # [20:08] <annevk> or maybe HTML5 just doesn't need status updates, it's all over the place already anyway :)
  744. # [20:09] <Dashiva> Yeah, it's public all over the place in htmlwg
  745. # [20:09] <Dashiva> Except that cg :)
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  747. # [20:12] <annevk> the HCG should really become a public group
  748. # [20:13] <Hixie> good luck wit hthat
  749. # [20:14] <gsnedders> HCG?
  750. # [20:14] <annevk> Hypertext Coordination Group also known as HTML CG
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  757. # [20:24] <Hixie> so who is steven faulkner going to interview for standards suck 4?
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  760. # [20:28] <annevk> there's no pattern
  761. # [20:28] <annevk> just a spoon
  762. # [20:32] <gsnedders> annevk: There is no spoon!
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  774. # [21:09] <Hixie> i've been trying to avoid defining urls for so long
  775. # [21:09] <Hixie> but it's starting to end up at the top of all my automatically generated lists
  776. # [21:09] <Hixie> folder with oldest e-mail, folder with most e-mail, etc
  777. # [21:12] <Philip`> You just need to refine your automatic list generation - "folder with oldest e-mail that is not about defining URLs", etc
  778. # [21:14] <Hixie> i've already done that with any folder about WF2, rendering, video codecs...
  779. # [21:14] <Hixie> i don't really have a good reason to do it with urls!
  780. # [21:14] <Hixie> "i don't want to find out what browsers do" doesn't seem like a valid reason
  781. # [21:14] <Hixie> bbl
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  783. # [21:19] <annevk> Hixie, adding HTML5 elements to the HTML parser has been suggested
  784. # [21:19] <annevk> Hixie, I think that would be a good thing too, fwiw
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  801. # [22:08] * gsnedders is far too indecisive to write a spec
  802. # [22:09] <annevk> if both options seem ok flip a coin
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  804. # [22:10] <annevk> (and maybe document the choices in a comment)
  805. # [22:10] <annevk> then when people complain you can change it
  806. # [22:11] <Philip`> If both options seem okay, branch the spec and produce two versions
  807. # [22:11] <Philip`> and repeat the branching for each indecision point
  808. # [22:12] <Philip`> That way you won't be acting unfairly towards any of the options
  809. # [22:14] <gsnedders> In this case it's whether HTTP-Version should be case-sensitive (per HTTP.sys (in IIS) and CFNetwork (and through that Saf and other WebKit browsers on OS X) and RFC2616) or not (per Fx, IE, and Op)
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  811. # [22:14] <gsnedders> It seems the case-insensitivity is no longer needed whatsoever
  812. # [22:16] <gsnedders> I'll send late LC comments on XHR this weekend, annevk, BTW
  813. # [22:16] <gsnedders> (I know I've been saying that for a while, but hopefully I finally will)
  814. # [22:16] <annevk> sure
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  817. # [22:20] * Philip` wonders how many invalid HTTP responses he encountered
  818. # [22:20] <Philip`> http://drmarin.galeon.com/ is one (returns just the body, no headers or status code or anything)
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  821. # [22:21] <Philip`> and same on http://galeon.com/dilandau/mokushiroku.htm
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  823. # [22:24] <Philip`> http://www.guadeloupe-fr.com/ too
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  826. # [22:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: I second annevk's and zcorpan's suggestion to address new elements in parsing
  827. # [22:26] <Philip`> http://www.truemetal.org/powermetal/ too
  828. # [22:27] <Philip`> Two send "HTTP/1.x ..." lines twice (so the second time gets parsed as a header)
  829. # [22:28] <Philip`> I don't see any other interesting problems that HttpClient detected
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  833. # [22:31] <virtuelv> did the svg wg come up with a proposal yet, btw?
  834. # [22:31] <virtuelv> for svg-in-html, that is
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  836. # [22:33] <Philip`> virtuelv: Not yet, but I believe they have said they are working on it
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  850. # [22:54] <gsnedders> Philip`: The ones without any status code or body are HTTP/0.9 servers
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  857. # [23:04] <Hixie> right. new elements.
  858. # [23:04] <annevk> add some while you're at it :)
  859. # [23:04] <annevk> <kitchensink>
  860. # [23:05] <gsnedders> <bikeshed> too
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  863. # [23:13] <Hixie> right, what are the actual elements that i should make sure i've added
  864. # [23:13] <annevk> event-source in <head>
  865. # [23:13] <annevk> command, source
  866. # [23:13] <annevk> datalist / dialog
  867. # [23:13] <annevk> various sectioning elements
  868. # [23:13] <Hixie> "event-source", "section", "nav", "article", "aside", "header", "footer", "datagrid", "command"
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  870. # [23:14] <Hixie> "source", "datalist", "dialog"
  871. # [23:14] <Hixie> what does "datalist" need?
  872. # [23:14] <annevk> does <option> close without error?
  873. # [23:15] <annevk> and <optgroup> too maybe, forgot if that was allowed
  874. # [23:15] <Hixie> uh
  875. # [23:15] <Hixie> "option" gets ignored "in body"
  876. # [23:15] <Hixie> bummer
  877. # [23:21] <Hixie> ok the following get treated as "meta" does: "event-source", "command", "source"
  878. # [23:21] <Hixie> and the following get treated like "div": "section", "nav", "article", "aside", "header", "footer", "datagrid", "dialog"
  879. # [23:22] <Hixie> s/meta/link/
  880. # [23:22] <annevk> treating <source> like <param> seems better
  881. # [23:23] <Hixie> yes
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  883. # [23:24] <Hixie> hm, <body><style scoped> gets parsed wrong
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  885. # [23:26] * Hixie makes <style> not allowed as a child of <body>
  886. # [23:26] <annevk> wtf?
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  888. # [23:26] <annevk> i mean, why?
  889. # [23:27] <Hixie> because </head><style> has to be parsed as <head><style></head><body> not <head></head><body><style>
  890. # [23:27] <Hixie> and there's no real reason to have <style> be the first element of a <body> instead of having it in the head
  891. # [23:28] <annevk> </head><style> is already taken care of
  892. # [23:28] <annevk> see "after head"
  893. # [23:29] <Hixie> right, i'm not changing the parser
  894. # [23:29] <annevk> :/
  895. # [23:30] <Hixie> i just don't want it to be possible to write pages that are conforming but parse as something very different
  896. # [23:30] <Hixie> since that would be dumb
  897. # [23:31] <annevk> is this about </head><style> still?
  898. # [23:31] <Hixie> hm, i also need to make <script> not be allowed at the start of <body> for the same reason
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  900. # [23:31] <Hixie> actually maybe i just need to make the syntax section clearer
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  902. # [23:31] <Hixie> and say that the tag can't be omitted
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  904. # [23:32] <annevk> oh, I see
  905. # [23:32] * annevk thought Hixie was proposing changing the parser
  906. # [23:32] <Hixie> no no
  907. # [23:33] <Hixie> oh hey what do you know
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  909. # [23:33] <Hixie> the writing section already covers this
  910. # [23:35] <annevk> heh, the IE people have discovered the DOM Core bug as well
  911. # [23:37] <roc> I think I pissed off someone at Adobe
  912. # [23:39] <annevk> jd hmm
  913. # [23:39] <Dashiva> roc: Your pdfs won't open anymore?
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  915. # [23:41] <othermaciej> roc: why do you say that?
  916. # [23:41] <othermaciej> annevk: I proposed errataing that years ago, sigh
  917. # [23:41] <roc> "<em>"since they're not standards they probably won't ever be invited to this party."</em> uh-oh, that sounds a little closed and exclusionary there...! :("
  918. # [23:42] <annevk> so we need to actively invest time in making stuff work with proprietary platforms we don't believe in? classic
  919. # [23:43] <Dashiva> That's what they pay w3c for, isn't it?
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  921. # [23:43] <othermaciej> as did you
  922. # [23:43] <Hixie> we don't, but it makes sense that they'd try to make us
  923. # [23:43] <roc> as a practical matter we do have to invest in plugins
  924. # [23:44] <roc> ooh
  925. # [23:44] <roc> what the Web needs: NPAPI5
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  927. # [23:44] <othermaciej> well, AIR is a valiant effort on their part to mix Flash with real Web content in more interesting ways
  928. # [23:44] <othermaciej> but it's not actually available on the web
  929. # [23:44] <othermaciej> and they intentionally crippled the WebKit part of AIR and have not been upgrading it since
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  935. # Session Close: Sat Jun 07 00:00:00 2008

The end :)