/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-06-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jun 12 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:12] <Dashiva> gsnedders: #emo-wg seems like a better bet
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  12. # [00:23] <hober> Dashiva: what would such a WG's deliverables be?
  13. # [00:24] <Dashiva> The emo specification, for one. I see lots of uses for MUST and SHOULD in correct behavior designation :)
  14. # [00:27] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Emos SHOULD be bisexual. Emos SHOULD self-harm. Emos SHOULD wear black. Emos SHOULD listen to depressing music.
  15. # [00:28] <gsnedders> (regarding the first of those, according to a friend of mine (jokingly, though): "Bisexuals are people who are desperate")
  16. # [00:29] <Dashiva> I'd say the last one is a MUST.
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  18. # [00:30] * Dashiva adds a "/me MUST go to sleep" to that list.
  19. # [00:30] <jgraham_> You should do proper research e.g. http://www.google.com/search?q=emos%20SHOULD
  20. # [00:33] <jgraham_> The last result on page 2 is particularly nasty: "emos SHOULD just kill themselves". Having a spec with that in seems to be a bad idea though
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  22. # [00:38] <jgraham_> gsnedders: FWIW I think I had exactly the same issue as you about the dual meanings of the word "section" in the outline spec
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  24. # [00:45] <jgraham_> gsnedders: I _think_ you should end up with a different outline for each outline root element and I _think_ that if you feed the document root in, you should be able to construct a set of all outlines in a single pass of the algorithm (but that is from reading my code, not the spec)
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  49. # [02:01] * Philip` finds half a dozen XSS vulnerabilities in cam.ac.uk pages
  50. # [02:02] <Philip`> (I'm surprised that most (i.e. more than 50%, though not a lot more) actually escaped their output correctly)
  51. # [02:02] <Philip`> *most forms
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  54. # [02:14] <dbaron> So, a canvas text question: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas.html#font has wording for em, ex, larger, smaller, bolder, lighter, etc. that is relative to computed values on the canvas element. If the canvas element isn't currently in the document, what computed values should be used?
  55. # [02:15] <dbaron> (We have an intern implementing this who wants to know... :-)
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  57. # [02:16] <Philip`> dbaron: "If the computed values are undefined for a particular case (e.g. because the canvas element is not in a document), then the relative keywords must be interpreted relative to the normal-weight 10px sans-serif default."
  58. # [02:16] <dbaron> oh, right
  59. # [02:16] <dbaron> ok
  60. # [02:16] <Philip`> ( http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1733&to=1734 )
  61. # [02:16] <Philip`> (which was a couple of days ago)
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  74. # [03:00] <Philip`> Ooh, success - a week after I complained, the IE8 Tech Beta newsletter got republished as PDF instead of OOXML
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  76. # [03:03] <Hixie> oops
  77. # [03:03] <Hixie> my mail client stuck a ***DHSPAM*** marker on the last mail i sent
  78. # [03:03] <Hixie> i hope dave doesn't take offence
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  91. # [03:54] <dbaron> Hmmm. So the changes annevk made in the editor's draft of css3-mediaqueries require failing the Acid3 media queries test.
  92. # [03:54] <dbaron> I think I preferred it the old way, too.
  93. # [03:55] <othermaciej> what are the changes?
  94. # [03:55] <dbaron> it's the question of whether "not all and (bogus)" should match
  95. # [03:55] <dbaron> the spec changed to say the query should be ignored
  96. # [03:55] <othermaciej> I see
  97. # [03:55] <othermaciej> but that breaks the logic of not, kind of
  98. # [03:55] <dbaron> whereas before unknown features always failed
  99. # [03:55] <othermaciej> the new way you describe seems less future-compatible
  100. # [03:56] <dbaron> probably, yeah
  101. # [03:56] <dbaron> I just won an argument with anne about a similar case for the media type part.
  102. # [03:56] <dbaron> But I hadn't noticed it had also changed for features.
  103. # [03:56] <dbaron> Or maybe I noticed but didn't realize it was a change.
  104. # [03:56] <dbaron> or something
  105. # [03:58] <dbaron> of course, i wrote a bunch of other tests now that depend on anne's way
  106. # [03:58] <dbaron> hooray for self-contradictory sets of regression tests
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  135. # [05:38] <Hixie> so uh
  136. # [05:39] <Hixie> anyone remarked yet on the ultimate irony of sunava posting a link to an attachment on his internal corp e-mail as his feedback?
  137. # [05:39] <roc> you're tempting me to subscribe to public-html
  138. # [05:39] <Hixie> this was on public-webapps
  139. # [05:39] <Hixie> the new public-webapi / public-appformats list
  140. # [05:40] <dbaron> is that a working link or a requires-auth link?
  141. # [05:41] <Hixie> requires auth
  142. # [05:41] <Hixie> if one was cynical one could see this as yet another stalling tactic (they promised the feedback last november originally), but i honestly think in this case he just made a mistake
  143. # [05:41] <dbaron> I'm cynical.
  144. # [05:42] <Hixie> aha, he posted a new link
  145. # [05:42] <Hixie> http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/xdsecuritywp
  146. # [05:42] <Hixie> requires agreeing to a license
  147. # [05:42] <dbaron> read it carefully
  148. # [05:42] <Hixie> oooh, the license grants us their patents
  149. # [05:43] <dbaron> save a copy, then
  150. # [05:43] <Hixie> i ain't agreeing to it
  151. # [05:43] <Hixie> i'll ask him to forward the paper without the license
  152. # [05:43] * dbaron heads home
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  181. # [09:31] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  182. # [09:31] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
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  222. # [12:55] <Hixie> MikeSmith: see the bottom of the message i just sent
  223. # [12:55] <Hixie> nn
  224. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> Hixie: will do
  225. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> 'night
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  238. # [14:37] <zcorpan> hmm, shouldn't <video controls> be considered interactive for the purposes of content models?
  239. # [14:37] <zcorpan> should user events on the native controls interface be eaten or not?
  240. # [14:38] <roc> they shouldn't be visible to content
  241. # [14:38] <zcorpan> makes sense
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  264. # [17:26] <zcorpan> what should happen if you try to do HTMLMediaElement.empty = 42; or HTMLMediaElement.prototype.EMPTY = 42; ?
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  266. # [17:28] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cscript%3E%20Node.ELEMENT_NODE%20%3D%2042%3B%20w(Node.ELEMENT_NODE)%20%3C%2Fscript%3E
  267. # [17:28] <zcorpan> opera and firefox say 42, safari says 1
  268. # [17:32] <annevk> 42 is obviously the correct answer
  269. # [17:32] <annevk> oh wait, that's what you set it to yourself
  270. # [17:32] <annevk> :)
  271. # [17:33] <zcorpan> i'd expected an exception to be thrown
  272. # [17:33] <zcorpan> same as readonly attributes
  273. # [17:33] <zcorpan> does webidl say?
  274. # [17:35] <annevk> i guess it should
  275. # [17:35] <annevk> setting .empty diretly shouldn't work though, I think
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  277. # [17:36] <zcorpan> um, i meant .EMPTY
  278. # [17:37] <zcorpan> but why shouldn't it work?
  279. # [17:37] <annevk> .empty sounded readonly
  280. # [17:37] <annevk> .EMPTY is different :)
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  282. # [17:38] <annevk> I guess WebIDL should say what happens when setting constants
  283. # [17:38] <zcorpan> there's no .empty on HTMLMediaElement
  284. # [17:38] <annevk> meh
  285. # [17:39] <zcorpan> web idl is public-webapps right
  286. # [17:40] <annevk> yeah
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  289. # [18:01] <zcorpan> does ie support some constant in the dom?
  290. # [18:04] <annevk> I don't think so
  291. # [18:06] <Philip`> http://www.opera.com/docs/changelogs/linux/950/ - "Canvas.getImageData and Canvas.putImageData methods, including support for creating an ImageData object using the ImageData interface" - too bad it's a totally non-standard way of creating ImageData objects, and the standard way is not supported
  292. # [18:12] <Philip`> "xml tags within HTML documents are now given a documentElement attribute." - I don't see that...
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  294. # [18:21] <annevk> Philip`, yeah, we should probably mention that
  295. # [18:23] <Philip`> (Also the path transformation thing is not fixed)
  296. # [18:27] <Philip`> (Also, there's a security bug)
  297. # [18:28] <annevk> bugs.opera.com/wizard
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  299. # [18:30] <annevk> and :/
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  302. # [18:57] <Philip`> (annevk: https://bugs.opera.com/show_bug.cgi?id=337562)
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  306. # [19:27] <Philip`> (I suppose it's not a particularly severe problem, since it reveals at most four bytes of memory, but it's the principle that matters)
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  341. # [21:23] * hsivonen is now curious about garbage collecting the XHR document
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  350. # [22:11] * gsnedders blames Hixie for making the spec so unclear
  351. # [22:11] <Hixie> well that's not one i can easily duck the blame on
  352. # [22:12] <Hixie> you know, all these people complaining about how xhr depends on html5 bring up a very good point
  353. # [22:12] <gsnedders> That HTML 5 should suck less?
  354. # [22:12] <gsnedders> :P
  355. # [22:12] <gsnedders> "Let candidate section be the section that contains the previous candidate section in the outline of current outlinee." — if it's the first time we're running that, _what_ previous candidate section?
  356. # [22:12] <Hixie> well no, it's just that if the people who want html5 split out for what they want, we'd just have a massive tangle of interdependent specs
  357. # [22:13] <Hixie> gsnedders: um
  358. # [22:13] <gsnedders> Hixie: Hey, you wrote that! :P
  359. # [22:13] <Hixie> i know, i know
  360. # [22:13] <Hixie> and this is the simplified version :-/
  361. # [22:14] * gsnedders wonders whether to be an asshole and just implement something HTML 4 like for TOC construction :P
  362. # [22:17] <Hixie> so would <body><h1> be a case where you hit that?
  363. # [22:17] <gsnedders> I haven't thought about how you'd hit it yet :P
  364. # [22:19] <gsnedders> Hixie: No, you wouldn't hit that
  365. # [22:19] <Hixie> <body><h1><h2>?
  366. # [22:19] <gsnedders> Hixie: You'd hit "If the current section has no heading, let the element being entered be the heading for the current section."
  367. # [22:19] <gsnedders> Hixie: That has an implied </h1>, right?
  368. # [22:19] <Hixie> yeah
  369. # [22:19] <Hixie> i don't see how you can hit this clause without a previous section
  370. # [22:20] <gsnedders> what's the previous candidate section though?
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  372. # [22:21] <Hixie> the value of "candidate section" when you entered that step
  373. # [22:21] <gsnedders> Hixie: Huh?
  374. # [22:22] <gsnedders> Hixie: We don't change candidate section until then, so, what? The section before candidate section in the current outline?
  375. # [22:22] <Hixie> it's doing candidate section = outline of current outlinee . getSectonThatContains(candidate section)
  376. # [22:22] <gsnedders> OK.
  377. # [22:22] <Hixie> i'll rephrae it
  378. # [22:22] <gsnedders> please do
  379. # [22:23] * gsnedders has no getSectonThatContains, hmm
  380. # [22:23] <Hixie> the only way you can hit this i think is <body><h1/><h2/><h2/>
  381. # [22:24] <gsnedders> Which _is_ kinda common :)
  382. # [22:24] <Hixie> while processing the second <h2>; and it'll get hit when candidate section is the section for the first <h2/>
  383. # [22:24] <Hixie> in which case you can always go up to the <h1>'s section
  384. # [22:24] <gsnedders> Yeah, right.
  385. # [22:24] * gsnedders stops being confused
  386. # [22:25] <Hixie> it'll always work because the one case where it would fail is handled as the first "Otherwise" for heading content (before this sublist)
  387. # [22:25] <gsnedders> Yeah.
  388. # [22:25] <Hixie> clarification deployed
  389. # [22:25] * gsnedders reloads
  390. # [22:26] <gsnedders> Yeah, that's clearer
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  398. # [22:52] <Hixie> annevk: one way to sidestep a number of the problems w.r.t. the document becoming null (the issue relating to garbage collection for xhr) would simply be to say that the object in question can't be garbage collected while there's a reference to it from xhr.
  399. # [22:54] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-0c0682aa57ec2011) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  400. # [22:55] <Hixie> anyone need a dreamhost invitation code btw?
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  402. # [22:56] <krijn> Not me
  403. # [22:56] <krijn> Add it to the issue tracker :)
  404. # [22:56] <Hixie> heh
  405. # [22:56] <krijn> If you know which, of course
  406. # [22:57] <Hixie> gsnedders: i added a bunch of xrefs in the outline section
  407. # [22:57] <Hixie> and an example
  408. # [22:57] <gsnedders> Hixie: thx
  409. # [22:59] <gsnedders> Hixie: How about something crazy like <body><section><h1>foo</h1></section><h1>Place me as a heading of the body, plz?
  410. # [22:59] <Hixie> what about it?
  411. # [22:59] <gsnedders> Hixie: A crazier example, that proves you can't just build a TOC sequentially (:()
  412. # [23:01] <Hixie> you can still do it in one pass
  413. # [23:01] <Hixie> you just have to buffer the outline of a section until you get its header
  414. # [23:02] <Hixie> it's far better style generally to create a data structure and then serialise it
  415. # [23:02] <Hixie> than it is to try and do it all at once
  416. # [23:02] <Hixie> especially in these days of ample ram
  417. # [23:04] <gsnedders> Hixie: Yeah, that's what I'm doing
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  432. # Session Close: Fri Jun 13 00:00:00 2008

The end :)