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- # Session Start: Sat Jun 14 00:00:00 2008
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
- # [00:01] <othermaciej> what is TRACK about?
- # [00:01] <bzed> jgraham_: uploaded.
- # [00:01] <annevk> TRACK is method that causes issues for old IIS server
- # [00:01] <annevk> it's basically TRACE
- # [00:01] <annevk> (not supported by newer IIS)
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- # [00:06] <Philip`> What counts as "old"?
- # [00:06] <annevk> version 6 or so?
- # [00:06] <annevk> I don't remember
- # [00:06] * weinig|away is now known as weinig
- # [00:06] <annevk> I only know UAs shouldn't support it
- # [00:06] <gsnedders> 6 is the second latest release
- # [00:06] <gsnedders> came with 2003 Server
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- # [00:08] * Philip` sees 40 IIS/7.0 in his pages (from some months ago), vs 327 IIS/4.0 and ~7000 IIS/5.0 and ~22K IIS/6.0
- # [00:08] <Philip`> (and 33K Apache/1 and 26K Apache/2 and 22K unversioned Apache)
- # [00:09] <gsnedders> Philip`: 2008 Server only just shipped, so it isn't that surprising
- # [00:09] <jgraham_> bzed: Great
- # [00:09] <Philip`> (so it's significantly different to what Netcraft says)
- # [00:09] <gsnedders> Philip`: ms.com has been running on it for at least a year, though
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- # [00:42] <blahamjaha> Are you working on HTML 5?
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- # [00:44] <Philip`> blahamjaha: Yes
- # [00:44] <blahamjaha> :S
- # [00:44] <blahamjaha> Please don't do silly things.
- # [00:45] <blahamjaha> Is multiple levels of OPTGROUPs gonna make it?
- # [00:46] <smedero> Well Web Forms 2.0 says "The optgroup element may now be nested inside other optgroup elements. "
- # [00:46] <smedero> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#changes
- # [00:47] <blahamjaha> :O
- # [00:47] <blahamjaha> I have no idea what Web Forms 2.0 is, though.
- # [00:47] <blahamjaha> Fancy name for a part of HTML 5?
- # [00:48] <Philip`> The short answer is "yes", and I won't bother with the long answer :-)
- # [00:48] <blahamjaha> :-[
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- # [00:49] <blahamjaha> I am sort of worried by this. It would be pretty "nice" to know that the OPTGROUPs would still be one level in the future.
- # [00:49] <blahamjaha> Because then I would have to force myself to think in a certain way.
- # [00:49] <Philip`> Why would it be a problem? You could still choose to only write single-level optgroups
- # [00:50] <blahamjaha> Yes, but this makes it feel as if it was a random choice from the beginning.
- # [00:51] <blahamjaha> Not done for a good reason.
- # [00:51] <smedero> Work on Web Froms 2 is delayed at the moment ... you can take that up with the W3C Forms Task Force: http://www.w3.org/2007/10/forms-tf/
- # [00:53] <smedero> Hrm, "The Forms Task Force expects to be done by July 2008."
- # [00:54] <smedero> via: http://www.w3.org/2007/10/forms-tf/charter-proposal
- # [00:54] <Philip`> The Forms Task Force also expected to manage to actually do something
- # [00:55] <smedero> heh, I decided to not open any more old wounds and leave my comments at that. : /
- # [00:55] <Philip`> so I'm not sure how much I trust those expectations :-)
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- # [00:58] <Philip`> It seems entirely factual and uncontroversial to say that the Forms TF has done nothing, so I'm just not attempting to suggest the reasons why (particularly since I don't know the reasons) :-)
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- # [01:13] <zcorpan_> http://forums.whatwg.org/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=309 looks like a spammer..
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- # [02:42] <Philip`> http://dlmf.nist.gov/5/7/ - MathML in (X)HTML, though it only sends that to Firefox and sends HTML4+PNGs instead to browsers like Opera
- # [02:43] <Philip`> (which seems sensible, particularly since Opera 9.5 claims to support MathML but does it rubbishly)
- # [02:44] <Philip`> s/Firefox/Gecko/ (or at least it works in both Firefox and Minefield)
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- # [10:55] <gsnedders> Hixie: But Europe is awesome!
- # [10:56] <Hixie> i know
- # [10:56] <Hixie> i'm european
- # [10:56] <Hixie> but copying it doesn't make europe
- # [10:56] <Hixie> it makes a fake copy
- # [10:56] <gsnedders> Hixie: I know :)
- # [10:56] <Hixie> and that's just tacky
- # [10:56] <Hixie> people should develop their own culture
- # [10:56] <Hixie> not try to copy others
- # [10:57] <gsnedders> Hixie: Looking at modern America, all I can think of is huge glass skyscrapers, though
- # [10:58] <anne-olpc> morning
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- # [11:08] <Lachy> good morning
- # [11:09] <MikeSmith> Lachy: hei
- # [11:10] * gsnedders reloads the spec again, knowing Hixie may well have changed what he's implementing again :)
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- # [11:17] <Hixie> ok bed time for me
- # [11:18] <gsnedders> g'nite
- # [11:19] <gsnedders> Hixie: You actually gone yet?
- # [11:19] * gsnedders comes across one minor thing that makes no sense
- # [11:19] <gsnedders> Oh, wait, it does.
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- # [11:21] <anne-olpc> the Dutch won!
- # [11:22] <anne-olpc> without zidane the French are not as good anymore it seems...
- # [11:25] <Lachy> can we make it a condition that people posting new bugs to bugzilla have actually read and understood the relevant section of the spec? Rob's last 2 bugs don't make sense.
- # [11:25] * Lachy wonders how to enforce that
- # [11:31] <anne-olpc> i'd suggest not wasting your time on that :)
- # [11:33] <Lachy> yeah, but I don't want bugzilla to degrade as badly as the wiki did, or be flooded with totally useless non-issues
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- # [11:40] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I also really don't want bugzilla to get flooded with non-substantial issues. but I think at least the for issues that are easily identifiable as instances where the person who raised them didn't understand the spec, those issues are quicker (I hope) for Hixie to notice and resolve than they would be if they were posted to public-html, and with interruption to fewer people
- # [11:40] <MikeSmith> I hope that's the case at least
- # [11:43] <MikeSmith> anyway, I was just dropping on to post the do's-and-don'ts message about bugzilla. I gotta drop off now
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- # [12:25] <Dashiva> If Hixie gets too much noise from NEW bugs, couldn't we just throw in a step up to CONFIRMED? :)
- # [12:26] <gsnedders> Dashiiva: Like, GSNEDDERSTHINKSITSPOINTLESS?
- # [12:26] <Dashiva> Kinda like how the issue tracker had a limited amount of people who could add
- # [12:39] * gsnedders notes he's got to the point where he can now write python well enough to write it without syntax errors
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- # [12:43] * gsnedders notes in this case either his impl. or HTML 5 is wrong
- # [12:44] <gsnedders> UnboundLocalError: local variable 'new_candidate_section' referenced before assignment
- # [12:45] <Philip`> "Let new candidate section be the section that contains candidate section in the outline of current outlinee. Let candidate section be new candidate section."
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- # [12:45] <Philip`> Seems like it should be impossible to reference before assigning, since that's the only place it's used
- # [12:45] <gsnedders> And with how I've implemented it, that means there is no section that contains candidate section, which Hixie said should never happen
- # [12:46] <Philip`> Oh
- # [12:48] <gsnedders> The only outline I have is one for the body element
- # [12:51] <gsnedders> And that outline is empty
- # [12:52] <gsnedders> This is with <h1/><h2/><h2/>
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- # [12:58] * gsnedders thinks it's a spec bug
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- # [13:42] <zcorpan_> so does ReadOnly mean silently ignore or throw exception?
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- # [13:45] <Dashiva> It does seem like a candidate for a NO_MODIFICATION_ALLOWED
- # [13:47] <zcorpan_> how about const foo = 1; foo = 2;
- # [13:47] <Philip`> I think ReadOnly assignment (and DontDelete deletion) were just silently ignored, when I tested it for various canvas things
- # [13:48] <zcorpan_> Philip`: ok
- # [13:57] <anne-olpc> it does mean we have to implement actual const support, but that's ok I suppose
- # [14:04] <othermaciej> per the ECMAScript spec, assigning to ReadOnly properties is silently ignored
- # [14:05] <othermaciej> it is possible, of course, to invent a state besides ReadOnly
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- # [14:46] <asianCool> anyone familiar with orbeon,i can save form using the builder
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- # [14:52] <Lachy> I wonder whether what asianCool wrote was a question, or a statment directed at those familiar with orbeon
- # [14:53] <Lachy> either way, it doesn't make much sense
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- # [15:05] <asianCoolz> hi all
- # [15:08] <annevk> hey, this is not the right place for orbeon questions
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- # [15:54] <gsnedders> Hixie: ping
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- # [16:02] <gsnedders> jgraham_: Do you have a working version of your outliner web UI?
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- # [16:49] <zcorpan_> hmm, i guess i should escape the bugzilla discussion with rob
- # [16:51] <Philip`> If the discussion is not productive, it seems unlikely that it will become productive in the future, so it seems sensible to minimise its ability to harm productiveness in other areas
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- # [17:00] <zcorpan_> Lachy: ul in p isn't conforming since the december content model change
- # [17:01] <annevk> I've yet to see the first productive discussion with RB
- # [17:10] <Lachy> zcorpan_, oops. you're right. I misread the spec.
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- # [20:55] <Hixie> well so far the bugzilla idea has led to a whole lot of INVALID, WONTFIX, LATER, and NEEDSINFO resolutions.
- # [20:55] <Hixie> and no FIXEDs.
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- # [21:07] <Lachy> Hixie, in bug 5753, although Rob's example was non-conforming, the same issue seems to apply to, e.g. <table><tr>.
- # [21:07] <Lachy> but you were right to mark the bug as invalid.
- # [21:08] <Hixie> with <Table><tr> you get an extra <tbody>, big deal
- # [21:08] <Lachy> yeah, I know. It's not a big issue.
- # [21:09] <Lachy> aargh, he reopened the object element bug again :-(
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- # [21:27] <Lachy> can we revoke some people's right to reopen bugs, if they continually do so without providing substantial info?
- # [21:32] <Hixie> if they reopen without substantial i just reassign to mike asking for arbitration
- # [21:32] <Hixie> my query is for open bugs in the htmlwg component not assigned to mike
- # [21:34] <Lachy> ok, fair enough
- # [21:34] <Hixie> i especially liked his "Yes"
- # [21:38] <Hixie> wow he hasn't reopened an issue in several minutes now
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- # [21:51] <Dashiva> Hixie: careful, you'll jinx yourself :P
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- # [22:01] <Dashiva> So has anyone who isn't RB filed a bug yet?
- # [22:03] <Hixie> yes
- # [22:03] <Hixie> the first one wasn't rob burns'
- # [22:03] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5744
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- # [22:36] <gsnedders> Hixie: you didn't pong me!
- # [22:36] * gsnedders is sad now
- # [22:37] <gsnedders> Hixie: Now, <h1/><h2/><h2/> seems to give the wrong outline
- # [22:38] <gsnedders> Actually, it doesn't.
- # [22:38] <gsnedders> I stopped developing for all afternoon thinking he'd found a major bug in the spec, but I've just realised the spec just does stuff in a different way
- # [22:40] <Hixie> i didn't pong you cos i didn't have time to work :-)
- # [22:40] <Hixie> i'm about to go
- # [22:40] <Hixie> i'll be back around 6pm my time
- # [22:40] <gsnedders> Hixie: I'll be asleep then :)
- # [22:41] <Hixie> send mail :-)
- # [22:41] <Hixie> bbl
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- # Session Close: Sun Jun 15 00:00:00 2008
The end :)