/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-06-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Jun 15 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:29] <gsnedders> Bug hunt! http://pastebin.ca/1048182
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  10. # [00:34] <gsnedders> elif for starters, in end()
  11. # [00:34] <Dashiva> Needs more goto
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  14. # [00:38] <gsnedders> Dashiiva: Are you just trying to be witty, or not?
  15. # [00:38] <Dashiva> I didn't know goto was valid python, so the former
  16. # [00:39] <gsnedders> Dashiva: I don't know if it is myself :)
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  18. # [00:45] * gsnedders dares attempt to create an outline for HTML 5
  19. # [00:46] * gsnedders gets an exception
  20. # [00:48] <gsnedders> Hixie: I can't use the outline algorithm for the HTML 5 spec! It doesn't support @class='no-toc'!
  21. # [01:09] * gsnedders sends mail
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  38. # [03:32] <Philip`> http://www.middlebury.govoffice.com/ - <html xmlns:msxsl="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:xslt" xmlns:vbscript="http://mycompany.com/mynamespace"> - yay for copy-and-paste from example code
  39. # [03:32] * Joins: mcarter (n=mcarter@pool-72-87-174-63.lsanca.btas.verizon.net)
  40. # [03:35] <MikeSmith> Philip`: heh
  41. # [03:35] <Philip`> http://www.freeamerican.com/ - <all Clay About><Y</all><all Clay About><Y</all><all Clay About><Y</all> a zillion times - ?!
  42. # [03:37] <MikeSmith> Philip`: man, that page is a goldmine in many ways
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  45. # [03:38] <MikeSmith> mcarter: hei. what's status on the JS implementation you were doing related to the connection API? haven't heard anything about it for a while
  46. # [03:39] <Philip`> MikeSmith: I'm not sure I'd call what you find there "gold"
  47. # [03:39] <MikeSmith> "THC is a cure for Cancer!"
  48. # [03:39] <MikeSmith> I like that part at least
  49. # [03:41] <mcarter> MikeSmith, I implemented the html5 TCPConnection as specified, both api and protocol
  50. # [03:42] <mcarter> MikeSmith, I've been waiting to release until I get it going in opera, which I'm working on today
  51. # [03:43] <mcarter> actually, i don't suppose any opera developers are around? annevk? there seems to be an incompatibility between 9.27 and 9.5 for SSE with the application/x-dom-event-stream content-type
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  53. # [03:46] <MikeSmith> mcarter: virtuelv (Arve B.) might be a good person to ask about
  54. # [03:46] <MikeSmith> about that
  55. # [03:46] <MikeSmith> he is a web app developer at Opera
  56. # [03:47] <MikeSmith> virtuelv_:
  57. # [03:47] <mcarter> MikeSmith, thanks
  58. # [03:48] <mcarter> virtuelv_, in opera 9.5 the problem is if i do this: "var source = document.createElement("event-source"); source.setAttribute('src', url); document.body.appendChild(source);" then it connects TWICE. once when i setAttribute 'src', the other time when i put the element in the document
  59. # [03:49] <mcarter> virtuelv_, older versions of opera would only connect to the event source once
  60. # [03:50] <othermaciej_> mcarter: what ever happened to your plans to propose an HTTP-tunneled version of the protocol?
  61. # [03:51] <othermaciej_> I really want to add some kind of two-way persistent communication mechanism to WebKit but the current TCPConnection just seems like a bad design
  62. # [03:51] <mcarter> othermaciej_, I wanted a working implementation first. And that proved harder than I thought
  63. # [03:51] <mcarter> othermaciej_, the good news, is I have one now, and i'm just putting on the finishing touches. like opera support
  64. # [03:51] <othermaciej_> mcarter: so this sorta works like a reverse proxy I assume?
  65. # [03:52] <othermaciej_> the client does two-way messaging and some intermediary handles that and maintains a persistent connection to the real server?
  66. # [03:52] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  67. # [03:52] <mcarter> othermaciej_, yeah. the api in the browser is the standard, and the protocol out the back of the proxy is the proposal
  68. # [03:53] <othermaciej> I guess that might even still be useful for load reduction, so long as the intermediary has a good policy for when to tear down the persistent connection
  69. # [03:53] <othermaciej> (reduces load on your real server and the reverse proxy bit is easily scalable given its nature)
  70. # [03:54] <mcarter> othermaciej, tear down which persistent connection? the one to the backend or the one to the browser?
  71. # [03:54] <othermaciej> to the back end
  72. # [03:55] <othermaciej> to the browser it can't have a persistent two-way connection, right?
  73. # [03:55] <othermaciej> though I guess it can use event-source or XHR for something one-way persistent
  74. # [03:55] <mcarter> othermaciej, well no, it has a server->browser persistent connection, and another connection for xhr browser->server
  75. # [03:56] <mcarter> othermaciej, but i figure the backend server can close the connection whenever it wants
  76. # [03:56] <othermaciej> mcarter: how can you ensure that a persistent browser->server connection is maintained?
  77. # [03:57] <mcarter> othermaciej, i don't know if you can necessarily ensure it for all browsers. But in practice, if you use keep alive and send a ping or something every so often, the browser->server connection tends to remain open
  78. # [03:58] <mcarter> also, after creating this api, I made some more protocol implementations on top
  79. # [03:58] <othermaciej> oh?
  80. # [03:58] <mcarter> for instance, there is an IRC client written in javascript thats pretty neat (this uses an alternative proxy->backend protocol. just raw tcp with no initial handshake)
  81. # [03:59] <mcarter> I've come upon a number of issues for some protocols though
  82. # [03:59] <mcarter> for instance, in implementing the STOMP protocol (simple messaging protocol for message queues) it uses a '\0' byte which the browsers won't all send
  83. # [04:00] <mcarter> I know these protocols aren't the target case for the html5 specification -- i was just experimenting
  84. # [04:01] <mcarter> in implementing xmpp, I found that some servers require TLS handshake and its really not feasible to implement encryption directly in the browser
  85. # [04:08] <othermaciej> it would be kinda slow, certainly
  86. # [04:08] <othermaciej> newer JS implementations are getting better at code like that but still not as fast as C, and there is always IE to deal with still
  87. # [04:11] * Philip` wonders if "still not as fast as C" means "still two orders of magnitude slower than C"
  88. # [04:11] <mcarter> yeah... the funny thing about implementing xmpp in the browser is that you get buddy icons back as byte arrays (javascript list of integers)
  89. # [04:11] <mcarter> you can base64 encode it and set the img src="data:base64string", at least in firefox. but again, no IE support
  90. # [04:12] <othermaciej> Philip`: probably around 20 times slower, in the fastest JS implementations (at least without static typing extensions)
  91. # [04:12] <mcarter> it would be really nice to have more of the native image decoder and ssl stuff exposed directly to javascript
  92. # [04:14] <weinig> real bytearrays would be a nice start
  93. # [04:18] <Hixie> mcarter: if you could send whatever feedback you have soon, that'd be great -- i really have to start working on that part of the spec (either fix it, or remove it)
  94. # [04:30] <mcarter> Hixie, ok, sorry for the delay. I was trying to hard to perfect my implementation. I'll send the feedback soon.
  95. # [04:30] <Hixie> np
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  98. # [04:50] <Hixie> well that didn't take long
  99. # [04:50] <Hixie> rb just sent his complaint that i was dismissing him
  100. # [04:55] <Hixie> gsnedders: yt?
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  122. # [09:52] <Dashiva> I know there exists userjs for using xpath in fragment identifiers. But I don't know of anyone using them.
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  125. # [10:18] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jun/0074.html
  126. # [10:19] <Lachy> looks like he's asking for a new editor, simply based on the fact that Hixie disagrees with him.
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  129. # [10:31] <gsnedders> Hixie: Let me ask the same question of you: yt?
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  134. # [10:45] <Dashiva> Lachy: I wonder what it means that RB chose to CC html4all, but not public-html
  135. # [10:50] <Lachy> Dashiva, because it's discussing a process related issue, which shouldn't be discussed on public-html
  136. # [10:55] <gavin_> "Focussing on things like demand and whether implementors will
  137. # [10:55] <gavin_> implement is entirely unhelpful."
  138. # [10:55] <gavin_> !?
  139. # [10:55] <othermaciej> because rob burns knows those things as well as Hixie does
  140. # [10:55] <othermaciej> so it's insulting to bring them up
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  143. # [11:21] <Hixie> hey if rob burns convinces the htmlwg to remove me as editor i'd probably be the happiest person on the working group
  144. # [11:21] <Hixie> i'd no longer have to deal with rob burns, for one
  145. # [11:21] <Hixie> if it ever comes to w3c html5 vs whatwg html5, i have absolutely zero doubt about who would be able to move faster
  146. # [11:22] <Hixie> the motivation alone would probably double my prouctivity
  147. # [11:22] <othermaciej> the w3c bugzilla isn't the first one he's abused
  148. # [11:22] <Hixie> gsnedders: here now, but i e-mailed you anyway
  149. # [11:23] <Hixie> the funniest aspect of this rob burns thing is that of all the people on the wg, i think i'm the one who has spent the most time trying to consider his proposals and comments
  150. # [11:23] <Hixie> e.g. as far as i can tell most of his process complaints just fall on deaf ears
  151. # [11:23] <gsnedders> Hixie: Could you reply to my email to public-html from several days ago first?
  152. # [11:23] <gsnedders> Hixie: That will ensure I'm not being stupid
  153. # [11:24] <Hixie> um... sure
  154. # [11:24] <Hixie> let's see if i can work out where i put that!
  155. # [11:24] <gsnedders> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0172.html
  156. # [11:24] <Hixie> probably the sections folder
  157. # [11:24] <gsnedders> I finally found someone who has as many unread emails as Hixie, BTW
  158. # [11:24] <gsnedders> My dad.
  159. # [11:26] <gsnedders> Hixie: You've actually done some of the things, now
  160. # [11:26] <Hixie> does he plan to reply to that mail?
  161. # [11:26] <othermaciej> Hixie: I wish Rob's energy could be turned in useful directions that would help the group
  162. # [11:27] <gsnedders> Hixie: Oh, he hasn't looked at it yet, so he doesn't know that yet.
  163. # [11:27] <othermaciej> but that kind of turnaround can be hard to achieve
  164. # [11:27] <gsnedders> Hixie: I just got rather urgent emails forwarded from him that he got a month ago
  165. # [11:28] <Hixie> othermaciej: you can't convert heat energy into mechanical energy
  166. # [11:28] <Hixie> othermaciej: in any sort of efficient manner
  167. # [11:28] <othermaciej> Hixie: what if I redirect his complaints to public-carnot-cycle@w3.org?
  168. # [11:28] <Hixie> gsnedders: oh i read all my e-mail straight away
  169. # [11:28] <Hixie> gsnedders: i just don't deal with it straight away
  170. # [11:29] <gsnedders> Hixie: I know that — I do the same :)
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  172. # [11:29] <othermaciej> it may not be the most efficient way but team-maxwells-demon is not publicly accessible
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  174. # [11:31] <roc> Has any open source project discovered a way to efficiently eliminate time-wasters? I'd like to know about it
  175. # [11:33] <gsnedders> roc: A dictatorship?
  176. # [11:35] <roc> how does that help?
  177. # [11:36] <Lachy> roc, doing anything with time-wasters is inherently inefficent.
  178. # [11:36] <Lachy> most of all, trying to elimiate them.
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  181. # [11:41] <gsnedders> roc: You just completely ignore them, then they give up
  182. # [11:41] <Hixie> gsnedders: replied
  183. # [11:42] <Hixie> roc: see the talk by fitz and co about poisonous people
  184. # [11:42] <anne-olpc2> bugzilla entries are fun
  185. # [11:42] * anne-olpc2 is now known as anne-olpc
  186. # [11:44] <Hixie> (by sussman and fitz)
  187. # [11:44] <Hixie> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645
  188. # [11:44] <Hixie> right bed time now
  189. # [11:44] <Hixie> nn
  190. # [11:46] <roc> actually the hardest time-wasters I've found are people who are really nice and eager to help, and completely clueless
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  192. # [11:49] <othermaciej> WebKit has been relatively free of time-wasters
  193. # [11:49] <othermaciej> I think because it has no UI
  194. # [11:50] <othermaciej> and most of what it does is readily judged by objective criteria like standards and performance metrics
  195. # [11:56] <Dashiva> roc: Those can be channeled into doing manual labor, though
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  221. # [16:00] <gsnedders> Something is badly broken with my impl.. Ergh.
  222. # [16:01] <gsnedders> assert self.current_section != self.current_section.subsections[-1]
  223. # [16:12] <gsnedders> See, the oddness is that as far as I can see, you shouldn't ever be able to reach the assertion
  224. # [16:13] <gsnedders> (Well, you should reach it, it should just never ever throw an assertion error)
  225. # [16:15] <gsnedders> http://pastebin.com/m6cd75910 — anyone see anyway anything can become a subsection of itself?
  226. # [16:15] <Philip`> Add lots of 'print' statements wherever any of those variables are modified, to see where the error gets introduced?
  227. # [16:15] <gsnedders> Philip`: I've added loads of assert statements, which should cause an error before it reaches there
  228. # [16:17] <Philip`> Shouldn't the assert on line 105 say "not in" rather than "!=", if you're trying to detect the cases where a section might become its own subsection?
  229. # [16:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: Both are single section objects, so no
  230. # [16:18] <Philip`> Oh, indeed, I'm just being confused
  231. # [16:18] <gsnedders> it's line 149 when an assertion is thrown: nowhere else
  232. # [16:19] <gsnedders> (and of course around line 149, if it is a subsection, you're in an infinite loop)
  233. # [16:19] <Philip`> If you want people to debug your code, you should give them a runnable example that demonstrates the problem :-)
  234. # [16:20] <gsnedders> Philip`: I'm just playing around with the interactive interpreter :P
  235. # [16:21] <Philip`> gsnedders: That seems to be irrelevant to my point :-p
  236. # [16:23] <gsnedders> Philip`: http://pastebin.com/m55b99a32 — will that do? :P
  237. # [16:25] <gsnedders> Philip`: Just remove line 26 if you want it to actually run
  238. # [16:29] <Philip`> <h2></h2><h3></h3><table><tr><td></table>
  239. # [16:29] <Philip`> That seems to trigger the error
  240. # [16:32] <gsnedders> td is a sectioning root
  241. # [16:34] <Philip`> Ah - <h1></h1><h2></h2><figure> seems like a possibly minimal case, then
  242. # [16:35] <gsnedders> The first <h1> becomes the heading of the body
  243. # [16:35] <gsnedders> <h2> hits the otherwise substeps in "When entering a heading content element"
  244. # [16:41] <hdh> http://mg.pov.lt/blog/object-graphs-with-graphviz prints a object reference graph, may be it can help
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  254. # [18:18] <Lachy> Philip`, do you have a full list of pages that use /> on unknown elements published somewhere?
  255. # [18:19] <Philip`> Lachy: No
  256. # [18:19] <Lachy> ok
  257. # [18:19] <Lachy> do you know if there are pages that use /> on some of the newly introduced HTML5 elements? e.g. <section/>, etc.?
  258. # [18:20] <Philip`> I just grepped for <(?!a|b|...|br|dd|...)\w[^>]*/>
  259. # [18:20] <Philip`> using the list of element names from hsivonen's parser
  260. # [18:21] <Philip`> Mostly it finds RDF (Creative Commons, Trackback, etc) in comments, and VML
  261. # [18:21] <Philip`> (where the VML is also in (conditional) comments)
  262. # [18:22] <Philip`> If you have a list of the newly introduced HTML5 elements, I could look for that
  263. # [18:23] <Philip`> (I think it's unlikely to find anything, since none of the HTML5 element names are used significantly)
  264. # [18:24] <Philip`> (unless you count <embed> etc)
  265. # [18:25] <zcorpan_> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/#new-elements
  266. # [18:25] <Philip`> (<header> seems to be the most common, on 40 out of 130K pages)
  267. # [18:27] <Lachy> article|aside|audio|canvas|command|datagrid|datatemplate|details|event-source|figure|footer|header|mark|meter|nest|progress|rule|section|source|time|video
  268. # [18:29] <Philip`> http://www.outbackatisa.com.au/AttractionsatOutbackatIsa/RiversleighFossilsCentre.aspx
  269. # [18:30] <Philip`> <time hour="8" minute="30" /><span style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">8.30am - 5.00pm</span></time />
  270. # [18:32] <Lachy> is that it? One page is hardly significant evidence.
  271. # [18:33] <Philip`> Wait a few minutes :-)
  272. # [18:33] <Lachy> ok
  273. # [18:33] <takkaria> I'm pretty sure I've seen Hixie show pages which have it in quantity that would screw up if parsed as empty elements
  274. # [18:33] <takkaria> (except s/bad grammar/good english/)
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  276. # [18:34] <Philip`> takkaria: On unknown elements?
  277. # [18:34] <takkaria> mm, perhaps not
  278. # [18:34] <Philip`> There's loads of known elements where it'd break, but IE already parses unknown elements as effectively empty so nobody should be intentionally relying on that behaviour
  279. # [18:35] <Lachy> it's ok. I have other argument's against Rob's proposal that doesn't depend on this particular evidence.
  280. # [18:36] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote closed the connection)
  281. # [18:36] <Philip`> Lachy: (Finished searching) That's the only one (excluding any pages that split the tag over multiple lines)
  282. # [18:38] <Philip`> (There's a million times more pages that I didn't search than I did, so it's not possible to conclude anything much from a lack of evidence)
  283. # [18:38] <gsnedders> Philip`: Well, go search some more!
  284. # [18:38] <takkaria> it would be very confusing for future authors to have to use the solidus sometimes but not always
  285. # [18:38] <Lachy> takkaria, yeah, that's my other argument that I've written
  286. # [18:39] <takkaria> but I can see the worth in the proposal. I'm not quite sure what kind of empty elements one would want to include in the future, though...
  287. # [18:39] <Lachy> hey, why doesn't this section list any of the new void elements, like source and event-source? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#elements0
  288. # [18:40] <gsnedders> Lachy: Because Hixie sucks>?
  289. # [18:40] <gsnedders> s/>//
  290. # [18:40] <Philip`> gsnedders: I've already got too many to fit in RAM, so searches take ages, so I don't want more :-(
  291. # [18:40] <Philip`> (*I don't want more pages; I do want more RAM)
  292. # [18:41] <gsnedders> Philip`: Can't we give you more of both?
  293. # [18:41] <Lachy> how much RAM do you have?
  294. # [18:41] <Philip`> Lachy: 4GB
  295. # [18:41] <Lachy> ok, not too bad.
  296. # [18:42] <Lachy> It'd be nice when we can have 16TB of RAM. Then we would have these problems.
  297. # [18:42] <gsnedders> Lachy: 16TB of RAM should be enough for anyone!
  298. # [18:42] <gsnedders> s/16TB/640KB/
  299. # [18:42] <krijnh> hober: ping
  300. # [18:43] <Lachy> 16TB of RAM is more than I have available on hard drives.
  301. # [18:43] <Philip`> Also I'd run out of allocated disk space, and I can't remember the LVM commands to merge physical partitions and rebuild the RAID and filesystem and everything so I'd probably destroy my computer
  302. # [18:45] <Philip`> (and the sysadmin complained when I last modified the disk stuff, since I'd grown the root filesystem to 32GB when I only really needed 8GB)
  303. # [18:48] * gsnedders needs his 15GB of music
  304. # [18:49] <Philip`> That reminds me, I should compress all the cached pages to save on IO and RAM
  305. # [18:50] <Philip`> gsnedders: I keep all that on my personal laptop, not on my work machine :-)
  306. # [18:50] <gsnedders> Philip`: They are one and the same for me :)
  307. # [18:51] <Philip`> gsnedders: Clearly you have too few computers
  308. # [18:51] <gsnedders> Philip`: Clearly.
  309. # [18:51] <Lachy> yeah, you can never have too many computers.
  310. # [18:52] <Lachy> I have 4 and I'm ordering a 5th tomorrow.
  311. # [18:52] * gsnedders has far too many in this house
  312. # [18:52] <gsnedders> Only that a lot of them are from the mid/late 90s
  313. # [18:53] <Lachy> although, I'm replacing my old and mostly dead Mac Mini and really big, bulky and noisy PC with a new iMac
  314. # [18:53] <takkaria> mm, BBC BASIC
  315. # [18:57] * Philip` 's parents had about a dozen from the 90s, but threw them all out recently :-(
  316. # [19:00] * Lachy files a new bug, in the hope that it will increase the number of useful bugs from 0 to 1
  317. # [19:00] <Lachy> s/useful bugs/useful bug reports/
  318. # [19:01] <Philip`> Who's dave.null@w3.org?
  319. # [19:02] <Lachy> Philip`, just the default assignee of all bugs.
  320. # [19:03] * Philip` wonders if it's related to a real person called Dave, or just a joke on /dev/null
  321. # [19:03] <Lachy> it's either an archived list, or just an email address that files everything in /dev/null
  322. # [19:04] <Lachy> and it's not listed in either the Public or Member lists. It could be in Team, but unlikely
  323. # [19:08] <Philip`> Hmm, Gentoo has opera-9.50 (and marked stable) now
  324. # [19:08] * Philip` wonders if he should risk upgrading
  325. # [19:18] <gsnedders> Philip`: Even more minimalistic test case: "<table><tr><td>foo"
  326. # [19:20] <Philip`> Ah, that's confusingly non-monotonic - I had tried removing just one of the headings, which made the error go away, and didn't try removing both
  327. # [19:20] <gsnedders> Philip`: I still got the error with one header
  328. # [19:21] <Philip`> Oh
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  332. # [19:33] * weinig|away is now known as weinig
  333. # [19:33] <zcorpan_> i wonder why i'm not getting any email
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  335. # [19:37] * gsnedders is tempted to go and play through GTA4 again, making all the choices he didn't make before
  336. # [19:37] * weinig is now known as weinig|food
  337. # [19:38] <Philip`> You didn't make the choice to not play the game, so that means you would have to make that choice now
  338. # [19:39] <gsnedders> s/choices/choices within the game/
  339. # [19:40] <Philip`> You didn't make the choice to be a perfectly law-abiding citizen within the game
  340. # [19:42] <gsnedders> s/choices within the game/choices that occur while completing the game storyline/
  341. # [19:43] <Philip`> You didn't make the choice to walk backwards all the time
  342. # [19:44] <gsnedders> oh fuck off.
  343. # [19:44] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  344. # [19:44] <Philip`> You're just being insufficiently precise
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  347. # [19:56] <takkaria> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Parser_tests says that the tests have a correctness flag
  348. # [19:56] <takkaria> er, that doctypes have a correctness flag
  349. # [19:57] <takkaria> whilst now they have a force-quirks flag
  350. # [19:57] <takkaria> I assume that force-quirks is = !correctness
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  352. # [19:57] <Philip`> takkaria: It is
  353. # [19:57] <takkaria> ta
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  362. # [20:59] <gsnedders> Going back to <http://pastebin.com/m6cd75910>, it seems section.subsections gets set somewhere
  363. # [20:59] <gsnedders> I can't see where, though
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  365. # [21:07] * weinig|food is now known as weinig
  366. # [21:09] <gsnedders> I just had the error vanish for one run
  367. # [21:09] <gsnedders> Huh.
  368. # [21:17] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@71.39.129.225)
  369. # [21:18] <Philip`> gsnedders: Shouldn't line 128 be "pass" instead of "return", else it won't run the "In addition, whenever you exit a node, ..." bit?
  370. # [21:19] <gsnedders> Philip`: Peh. That's irrelevant! It doesn't even associate anything apart from elements with sections anyway. It's broken there.
  371. # [21:19] <gsnedders> Philip`: And I've removed that from my local copy entirely now
  372. # [21:21] <Philip`> Ooh
  373. # [21:21] <Philip`> Your definition of 'class section' is broken
  374. # [21:22] <Philip`> because the 'subsections = []' etc is assigning a single list object when the class is first defined, whereas you want a new list object for each instance of that class
  375. # [21:23] <Philip`> so the .subsections of all section objects is exactly the same list
  376. # [21:23] <Philip`> (so when one section is added to another's subsections, it's being added to its own subsections too)
  377. # [21:24] <gsnedders> ahah!
  378. # [21:27] <gsnedders> Something is certainly broken with the algorithm
  379. # [21:27] <gsnedders> <h1/><h2/><h2/> Never picks up the second h2
  380. # [21:28] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@cm-84.215.63.253.getinternet.no)
  381. # [21:28] <Philip`> ((And obviously the same problem applies to the 'toc' class, if you're using it more than once))
  382. # [21:29] <gsnedders> hmm…
  383. # [21:29] <gsnedders> it seems to be quicker to have stack as a normal list and not a deque, as len() is quicker on a normal list
  384. # [21:30] <Philip`> You can avoid lots of uses of len by doing "if foo" instead of "if len(foo) > 0", which should be faster
  385. # [21:31] <Philip`> Also doing stacks as lists is sensible anyway, since lists are optimised for adding/removing from the end, which is exactly what you do to a stack
  386. # [21:31] <gsnedders> Yeah, that is quicker
  387. # [21:31] <gsnedders> Philip`: deque should be quicker for any frequently changing list, AFAIK
  388. # [21:32] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@cm-84.215.63.253.getinternet.no)
  389. # [21:33] <Philip`> gsnedders: That depends entirely on how you're changing it :-)
  390. # [21:33] <gsnedders> Philip`: I meant changing it from the right end
  391. # [21:33] <gsnedders> (because if you're not, deque is obviously going to quicker, due to it being an O(1) op. there, and an O(n) one in a list)
  392. # [21:35] <Philip`> By "right end", do you mean "correct end" or "end with highest index value"?
  393. # [21:36] <gsnedders> Philip`: "correct"?
  394. # [21:39] <Philip`> lists are O(1) push-right and pop-right and get and set, and O(n) push-left and pop-left; deques are O(1) push and pop on left and right (with a larger constant factor than lists), and O(n) on get and set
  395. # [21:41] <Philip`> gsnedders: By "correct end" (for lists) I mean the end with the highest index value, since that's fast and the other end is slow
  396. # [21:41] <gsnedders> Philip`: Then why the "or", as they're both the same
  397. # [21:41] <jgraham> gsnedders; I get sensible results from <h1>foo</h1><h2>bar</h2><h2>baz</h2>
  398. # [21:42] <gsnedders> jgraham: On my impl or yours?
  399. # [21:42] <jgraham> On my imp.
  400. # [21:42] <jgraham> I think
  401. # [21:43] <jgraham> Although I no longer understand how my implementation works
  402. # [21:43] * Parts: hdh0 (n=hdh@118.71.126.11) ("Konversation terminated!")
  403. # [21:43] <jgraham> I'll see if the online copy is up to date
  404. # [21:46] <Philip`> gsnedders: Because I was unsure which you meant, and whether you meant only lists (where one end is correct) or also deques (where neither is)
  405. # [21:48] <jgraham> gsnedders: Try the case that you're having problem with at http://james.html5.org/outliner.html
  406. # [21:49] <gsnedders> jgraham: That doesn't work for me
  407. # [21:50] <jgraham> What doesn't work?
  408. # [21:50] <gsnedders> jgraham: the outliner in saf
  409. # [21:50] <gsnedders> jgraham: And in Fx2 all I get is "updating…"
  410. # [21:51] <jgraham> Oh, well try FF3 then :)
  411. # [21:51] * jgraham goes to debug Safari
  412. # [21:51] <jgraham> Or rather debug my ode in Safari
  413. # [21:52] <Philip`> An ode to Safari?
  414. # [21:53] <jgraham> Hmm I've heard that code is poetry but I'm not sure that Shakespeare is concerned with my efforts
  415. # [21:54] <Philip`> http://www.unix.com.ua/orelly/perl/prog3/ch27_02.htm
  416. # [21:55] <gsnedders> Yeah, it works fine there
  417. # [22:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: is the script (web_outline) that actually makes the structure visible available?
  418. # [22:14] * Joins: mcarter_ (n=mcarter@pool-72-87-174-244.lsanca.btas.verizon.net)
  419. # [22:19] <gsnedders> Hixie: Is line 136 of http://pastebin.com/m6cd75910 correct?
  420. # [22:19] <gsnedders> Hixie: Or am I still misunderstanding you?
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  422. # [22:36] <jgraham> gsnedders: The actual useful script is outline.py
  423. # [22:36] <jgraham> Which I can make avaliable
  424. # [22:36] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yeah, I know, but I want to see web_outline :P
  425. # [22:42] <jgraham> gsnedders: Not very useful? http://pastebin.com/d7520d64b
  426. # [22:45] <gsnedders> jgraham: http://james.html5.org/temp/outline/outline.py doesn't actually build the visible output
  427. # [22:46] <gsnedders> oh, wait, the tostring does
  428. # [22:50] <jgraham> Yeah, the tostring actually builds the visible content. Not really very elegant
  429. # [22:50] <jgraham> What did you decide was the best way to get text out of lxml elements?
  430. # [22:51] <gsnedders> jgraham: etree.tostring(element, encoding=unicode, method='text', with_tail=False)
  431. # [22:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: Thanks
  432. # [22:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: Thank Philip` too
  433. # [22:56] <jgraham> Philip`: Thanks :)
  434. # [23:00] <gsnedders> http://pastebin.com/m137dfc92 — I can't get that to create any sane TOC
  435. # [23:00] <gsnedders> Looking at the outline of the body, I find 440 sections
  436. # [23:01] <gsnedders> And there aren't that many h2 elements in HTML 5
  437. # [23:01] <gsnedders> (there are 19 in my copy)
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  496. # [23:50] <Philip`> Hmm, enumerating all combinations of {0, Infinity, -Infinity, NaN} for each argument of an 8-argument function is not a good idea
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  501. # Session Close: Mon Jun 16 00:00:00 2008

The end :)