/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-06-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jun 16 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:20] <Dashiva> Lachy: Don't give up! Don't let him confuse you!
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  12. # [00:52] <Lachy> Dashiva, what are you referring to?
  13. # [00:57] <Lachy> are you referring to Rob's bugzilla responses?
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  80. # [08:25] <virtuelv> Wow. Microsoft provided the feedback in a readable form
  81. # [08:31] <Dashiva> Lachy: Yes
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  86. # [08:49] <Hixie> if anyone wants to reply to microsoft's feedback, i sent a plain text version with the bs cut out
  87. # [08:53] <hsivonen> I think I have a couple of observations, but perhaps I should refrain from poking this stuff
  88. # [08:53] <hsivonen> (nothing that hasn't been said before)
  89. # [09:04] <hsivonen> whoa! UPnP lets device configuration state be changed by GET with a magic header? that's sad.
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  91. # [09:16] <Hixie> uPnP is a disaster
  92. # [09:17] <othermaciej> that is scary
  93. # [09:17] <othermaciej> but I guess that means it is unsafe to allow custom headers beyond a specific whitelist for cross-site requests?
  94. # [09:17] <Hixie> i thought we already had established that
  95. # [09:17] <othermaciej> (or that server-side preflight opt-in is required?)
  96. # [09:17] <othermaciej> I'm not 100% sure of the state of things but I had assumed that was so as well
  97. # [09:17] <Hixie> didn't XHR2 have a whitelist for headers already?
  98. # [09:18] <Hixie> i've kinda lost track of the way the spec is
  99. # [09:18] <Hixie> it keeps bouncing back and forth
  100. # [09:18] <othermaciej> there's server out there that will have side effects based on GET with a query string as well
  101. # [09:18] <Hixie> yup
  102. # [09:18] <Hixie> lots, ven
  103. # [09:18] <Hixie> even
  104. # [09:18] <hsivonen> hmm. one of the key arguments against CS-XHR is that clueless PHP programmers will shoot themselves in the foot if you give them enough rope
  105. # [09:19] <othermaciej> I think I might actually prefer to meet with Mozilla+Opera+Google than the full f2f at this point, to make progress on this topic
  106. # [09:19] <hsivonen> but then the key rationale why XDR doesn't suck is that MS advices people not to shoot themselves in the foot
  107. # [09:19] <othermaciej> hsivonen: that argument applies to XDR as well
  108. # [09:20] <Hixie> othermaciej: i'd be happy to attend such a meeting
  109. # [09:20] <othermaciej> well, maybe we can take time out from the f2f for that
  110. # [09:20] <Hixie> wfm
  111. # [09:21] <Hixie> i guess i should book a hotel
  112. # [09:21] <othermaciej> I don't want to devote a huge amount of time to Microsoft's feedback if they are not interested in coming up with an interoperable solution
  113. # [09:21] <othermaciej> yeah I gotta get that set up as well
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  135. # [10:51] <Lachy> MikeSmith, can the bugzilla prefs be changed so that public-html-bugzilla doesn't receive mail for simple things like changing the CC field, and only receives mail for substantial changes/comments
  136. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> Lachy: yeah, sure
  137. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> will do it now
  138. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> I had not really intended originally that the list be something that people actually subscribed to
  139. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> I had thought of it as just being a place to have a record
  140. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> But I can see it needs to be more usefl
  141. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> will change the prefs right now
  142. # [10:54] <Lachy> thanks
  143. # [10:55] <Lachy> I assumed lots of people would subscribe to it, since it's easier than manually adding oneself to individual bugs each time
  144. # [10:55] <Dashiiva> Yeah
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  146. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> Lachy: btw, based on your heads-up previously, I did get the list perms set such that only the bugzilla mailbot can post to the list
  147. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> so no more spam
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  149. # [11:03] <Lachy> ok, thanks
  150. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> Lachy: OK, mail goes out now only for the following cases:
  151. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> The bug is resolved or reopened
  152. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> New comments are added
  153. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> New attachments are added
  154. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> Some attachment data changes
  155. # [11:06] <Dashiiva> The first case includes new bugs?
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  157. # [11:08] <MikeSmith> Dashiiva: yeah
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  159. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> actually, there's one more case:
  160. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> I'm added to or removed from this capacity
  161. # [11:09] <Dashiiva> So if someone assigns a bug to the email alias user, we'd get email? :)
  162. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> "added" also covering the case where the address is in the default Cc to begin with
  163. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> Dashiiva: yeah
  164. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> I can't see how to prevent that if someone were to want to be a smartass and do it
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  167. # [11:11] <Dashiiva> Just keep it in as a way to detect and filter out smartasses
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  171. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> Dashiiva: :)
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  179. # [12:14] <annevk> Lachy, the toDataURL line you paste should be added, it should not reply any existing line
  180. # [12:17] <Philip`> Does "[Variadic] in any args" mean any number of arguments, including zero?
  181. # [12:17] <heycam> Philip`, yes
  182. # [12:17] <Lachy> annevk, why? WebIDL says [Variadic] is zero or more
  183. # [12:19] <annevk> :/
  184. # [12:19] <annevk> that's confusing
  185. # [12:20] <Lachy> why is that confusing? Did you expect it to be at least 1?
  186. # [12:20] <annevk> yes
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  188. # [12:21] <Philip`> It makes me think of C functions like "int printf(char*, ...)" where the ... can be zero or more arguments
  189. # [12:22] <Lachy> I wonder if there are any cases where a Variadic requires at least 1 argument, and whether it would be worth adding an argument like [Variadic=0] or [Variadic=1]. But I can't think of any such methods right now.
  190. # [12:22] <annevk> well, making it minimal 1 doesn't hurt anyone
  191. # [12:22] <annevk> as the optional case can be explicitly listed due to overloading
  192. # [12:22] <heycam> though you could just do void f(in int requiredArg, [Variadic] in int optionalArgs)
  193. # [12:23] <heycam> an alternative would be to put the [Variadic] on the operation itself, but at least on the argument you get to keep the type there
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  195. # [12:23] <heycam> and a hook for language bindings that don't do varargs
  196. # [12:23] <heycam> (where that [Variadic] argument could map to an array or whatever)
  197. # [12:25] <annevk> (it was also not entirely clear to me Variadic would mean 1 or more, I thought it was just about accepting various types)
  198. # [12:26] <annevk> but maybe I should just read the spec first
  199. # [12:30] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/mid/48561744.40604@css-class.com -_-
  200. # [12:31] <Lachy> heycam, why did you call it Variadic? Isn't there a more understandable name that could be used?
  201. # [12:31] <heycam> hmm, i thought it was the appropriate word
  202. # [12:31] <heycam> (being what the "var" stands for in "varargs")
  203. # [12:31] <heycam> [MultiArgs!] :)
  204. # [12:31] <Lachy> [Varargs] would make more sense
  205. # [12:32] <hsivonen> I supposed I should trust that vtab is gone for good from the parsing algorithm
  206. # [12:33] <heycam> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variadic_function)
  207. # [12:34] <Lachy> yeah, I found that. I'd never heard of the term before.
  208. # [12:34] <Lachy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varargs redirects there, so maybe either is acceptable
  209. # [12:37] <roc> Variadic is a word
  210. # [12:37] <roc> Varargs is not
  211. # [12:38] <heycam> although i'd say varargs might be more widely recognised, i'd go for variadic for the reason roc says
  212. # [12:38] <Lachy> according to which dictionary?
  213. # [12:38] <roc> any dictionary that wasn't written by C hackers
  214. # [12:38] <Lachy> neither answers.com or dictionary.com know of it.
  215. # [12:39] <annevk> they're prolly done in C then!
  216. # [12:39] <heycam> most dictionaries don't have technical terms
  217. # [12:40] <Lachy> ok, I believe you now. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-adic
  218. # [12:40] <heycam> is the root of the word the same as that of "monadic", i wonder?
  219. # [12:40] <heycam> ah there you go :)
  220. # [12:41] <roc> btw you need subject lines in all your IRC messages
  221. # [12:42] <heycam> Subject: Re: btw you need subject lines in all your IRC messages\n\nreally?
  222. # [12:42] <annevk> so you'd say "print() is a niladic function"?
  223. # [12:43] <heycam> well i wouldn't, that sounds silly :)
  224. # [12:43] <roc> Mathematicians actually do talk about nullary functions sometimes
  225. # [12:43] <annevk> or maybe "print() is niladic"
  226. # [12:44] * hsivonen wonders if the differences in the notion of whitespace between HTML5, XML 1.0 and XML 1.1 have caused any exploitable TOC/TOU security holes
  227. # [12:45] <roc> hmm, following the -ary suffix, Wikipedia suggests 'multary' or 'multiary'
  228. # [12:45] <roc> variary
  229. # [12:45] <heycam> hehe
  230. # [12:47] * hsivonen zaps vtab, is going to be unhappy if it makes a comeback
  231. # [12:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: regarding the generic [R]CDATA algorithm: Gecko seems to be happy to execute a script even if an empty script element is appended to the DOM first and then the entire script is appended as one text node child to it
  232. # [12:49] <hsivonen> WebKit, too
  233. # [12:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: so the unusual point of view of the control where the tree builder starts pulling tokens is unnecessary if the tree builder buffers text node contents
  234. # [12:50] <hsivonen> (unless I'm missing something, of course)
  235. # [12:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: (tested with the tree builder executing in Java but driving browser DOMs through the magic of GWT hosted mode)
  236. # [12:51] <hsivonen> (and the tree builder executing as GWT-compiled JS)
  237. # [13:16] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Jun/0078.html
  238. # [13:17] <hsivonen> I wonder what general assumptions about CDNs are wrong
  239. # [13:23] * Quits: ROBOd2 (n=robod@89.122.216.38) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  240. # [13:40] <hsivonen> does anyone happen to remember what the unresponsive script timeout time is in Gecko and WebKit?
  241. # [13:41] <hsivonen> (does Opera have a timeout?)
  242. # [13:42] * hsivonen discovers that the timeout has an unobvious pref name
  243. # [13:43] <hsivonen> seems to be 10 seconds in Firefox 3
  244. # [13:43] <Dashiiva> security through users never guessing the name of the pref
  245. # [13:46] <annevk> I don't think Opera has a timeout, we don't really need it
  246. # [13:50] <virtuelv> I've had scripts running for 30 minutes
  247. # [13:50] <virtuelv> (Don't ask, just don't)
  248. # [13:52] <zcorpan> virtuelv: was it while(1); ?
  249. # [13:52] <virtuelv> zcorpan: no
  250. # [13:53] <virtuelv> generated some huge-ass images with canvas
  251. # [13:54] <annevk> mandelbrot++
  252. # [13:57] <virtuelv> yes
  253. # [13:57] <virtuelv> and the implementation sucks, I know
  254. # [13:58] <virtuelv> I should probably rewrite it some day
  255. # [14:09] <zcorpan> are my expectations wrong here? http://simon.html5.org/test/html/dom/interfaces/HTMLElement/HTMLMediaElement/const-unsigned-short/002.htm
  256. # [14:09] <zcorpan> i don't quite grasp ecmascript and webidl :(
  257. # [14:09] <zcorpan> or i don't know the details i guess
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  261. # [14:28] <hsivonen> what should I do with exceptions thrown out of code run via setTimeout?
  262. # [14:28] <Dashiiva> Wrap the functions used in setTimeout in a try/catch wrapper?
  263. # [14:29] <hsivonen> Dashiiva: and discard the exception in catch?
  264. # [14:29] * Joins: deane (n=dean@121.98.128.155)
  265. # [14:29] <Dashiiva> Depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Which I forgot to ask.
  266. # [14:30] <hsivonen> I'm trying not to reinvent clean error handling patterns for long-running JS code that pumps work units using setTimeout
  267. # [14:31] <hsivonen> hmm. I suppose I make an error callback for the app to set
  268. # [14:31] <Dashiiva> Sounds like a plan.
  269. # [14:38] <Philip`> virtuelv: If you're going to rewrite it, you should rewrite it in C ;-)
  270. # [14:38] <Philip`> Make a viewer like Google Maps, where each Mandelbrot tile is computed on the server, and with no limit on how far you can zoom in
  271. # [14:40] <Philip`> zcorpan: Having a function named 'assert' that sets its argument to 42 is confusingly unconventional
  272. # [14:42] <zcorpan> Philip`: yes
  273. # [14:43] <zcorpan> Philip`: i'll change it to test() :)
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  297. # [17:49] <Philip`> Wow, web browser interoperability actually sort of works - Microsoft's fancy AJAX newsgroup reader appears to mostly work fine in Opera 9.5, as long as I set "Mask as Internet Explorer"
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  299. # [18:02] <annevk> BTW, there was some confusion about Access Control and headers in this channel at some point. There's indeed a whitelist for GET requests. For headers not on the whitelist a preflight request is made. (This is not a concern for other methods where a preflight request is already a requirement.)
  300. # [18:04] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  301. # [18:08] <annevk> It seems that it is also part of the MS feedback though the later admit it's protected by a preflight request. I don't think their feedback identifies any new issues. (I've read through it twice so far.)
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  309. # [18:47] <gsnedders> huh
  310. # [18:47] <gsnedders> jgraham: is http://james.html5.org/temp/outline/outline.py out of date?
  311. # [18:47] <gsnedders> jgraham: I'm getting different results running it locally :\
  312. # [18:48] <gsnedders> <h1>Foo</h1><h2>Bar</h2><h2>Lol</h2> gives what I'd expect at <http://james.html5.org/outliner.html>, but running it locally agrees with my impl, which makes the second <h2> at the same level as the <h1>
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  322. # [20:02] <Dashiva> Anyone involved with bindings4dom here?
  323. # [20:04] <Dashiva> I'm reading 4.4.2. Host object [[Put]] method. There seems to be no way to set a property that doesn't already exist.
  324. # [20:10] <annevk> heycam is the editor
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The end :)