/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-06-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jun 19 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <shepazu> nor am I, usually... though on channels where we have the feature, it's been used a lot
  4. # [00:00] <Philip`> "it's been used a lot" could be considered an argument against it
  5. # [00:00] <zcorpan_> so what if someone in the channel logs and publishes without hiding [off] lines?
  6. # [00:00] <Lachy> I would prefer that everything was logged and people were just careful with what they said
  7. # [00:00] <shepazu> krijnh: I would be against logging someone's comment at all, even their nick, if they used [off]
  8. # [00:01] <shepazu> zcorpan_: then that's really rude
  9. # [00:01] <Lachy> shepazu, how does RRSAgent handle [off] lines in the logs?
  10. # [00:01] <krijnh> shepazu: you mean against saving it in some static file?
  11. # [00:01] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-5c2c701080c40a44)
  12. # [00:02] <shepazu> krijnh: well, at the very least, against making it public
  13. # [00:02] <krijnh> I think it's pretty confusing if some lines are missing inside a discussion, without any notion of that fact
  14. # [00:02] <krijnh> For people reading afterwards
  15. # [00:02] <shepazu> just because I'm having a conversation on my mobile phone in public doesn't mean I want someone to record it and broadcast it on the radio
  16. # [00:03] <krijnh> Eh, okay
  17. # [00:03] <shepazu> krijnh: then just put all redacted lines as "[off]"
  18. # [00:03] <hober> krijnh: agreed. there needs to be some indication that (someone|nick) said something that they didn't want logged.
  19. # [00:03] <shepazu> including the nick
  20. # [00:03] <krijnh> I replied 'Oki' to that :)
  21. # [00:04] <shepazu> yeah, but then other people went on from there
  22. # [00:04] * Joins: joaoesos (n=jta@193.126.198.20)
  23. # [00:04] <shepazu> just making it clear :)
  24. # [00:04] <zcorpan_> shepazu: if you call a radio station when they're on air then you know it'll be broadcasted on the radio. would you want an [off] feature in that case so you can say things without getting it broadcasted?
  25. # [00:04] <krijnh> That's just the WHATWG cabal, ignore them
  26. # [00:04] <krijnh> *runs*
  27. # [00:04] <krijnh> zcorpan_: that's more what this is, indeed
  28. # [00:05] <shepazu> zcorpan_: I'm not going to debate privacy issues with you :) if you don't want privacy, awesome... but don't impose your prefernce on everyone else
  29. # [00:05] <zcorpan_> i want privacy, but not in irc channels :)
  30. # [00:06] <Lachy> shepazu, if people want privacy, the easy option is to take the discussion out of the public channel
  31. # [00:06] <zcorpan_> that are publically logged
  32. # [00:06] <Philip`> It's more like a Reality TV show, where you have discussions that are intended to just be between you and the people you're talking to, but you know there's the possibility that loads of other people will be looking in on what you're doing
  33. # [00:06] <shepazu> Lachy: RRSAgent doesn't honor "[off]" (I think), but it doesn't log lines starting with "/me"
  34. # [00:06] <Lachy> but I think for a public WG, that's not something that should happen often when discussing WG related stuff
  35. # [00:06] <hober> Lachy: exactly
  36. # [00:06] * Joins: anne-olpc (n=opera@ip-22-17-149-91.dialup.ice.no)
  37. # [00:06] <Lachy> shepazu, I think the fact that RRSAgent doesn't log /me lines is an annoying bug.
  38. # [00:06] * Philip` [off] wonders if this will hide the line from everyone
  39. # [00:07] <zcorpan_> Lachy: agreed
  40. # [00:07] <shepazu> Lachy: me too
  41. # [00:07] <shepazu> cool, guys, if you don't want to use "[off]", then don't
  42. # [00:07] <krijnh> Philip`: come again?
  43. # [00:07] <anne-olpc> fwiw, I think it would be better if [off] was logged; don't say things you don't want logged in a public channel
  44. # [00:07] * krijnh is confused
  45. # [00:08] <anne-olpc> (as in, not kept out of the logs)
  46. # [00:08] <Philip`> krijnh: If "/me ..." hides from RRSAgent, and "[off] ..." hides from your logs, I was wondering if "/me [off] ..." would work for both
  47. # [00:08] <krijnh> What would be a good use case for [off] anyway?
  48. # [00:08] * anne-olpc might have missed the last minute on this discussion, sorry
  49. # [00:08] <gsnedders> I think anne-olpc is right: don't say things you don't want logged in the channel.
  50. # [00:08] <shepazu> anne-olpc: check the logs :)
  51. # [00:08] <krijnh> anne-olpc: see the logs ;)
  52. # [00:09] <krijnh> What kind of statements would you put in [off] btw?
  53. # [00:09] <anne-olpc> perf and keyboard are not too great on the OLPC
  54. # [00:09] <anne-olpc> Opera helps, but still
  55. # [00:09] <krijnh> [off] Opera sucks, btw
  56. # [00:10] <Lachy> krijnh, insults, mostly ;-)
  57. # [00:10] <krijnh> Opera rules!
  58. # [00:10] <krijnh> [off] My previous line was a lie, hrhr
  59. # [00:10] <zcorpan_> krijnh: can't reveal what [off]'d be used for in public of course
  60. # [00:10] <shepazu> cursing, jokes, private info like email addresses or sikkrit URLs
  61. # [00:10] <gsnedders> [off] f off, Lachy!
  62. # [00:10] <krijnh> Email: that's a good one
  63. # [00:10] <hober> It makes me happy that /me's in #html-wg show up in krijnh's logs
  64. # [00:11] <smedero> that's the only one in the list that caught my attention.... email harvesting.
  65. # [00:11] * gsnedders is happy too
  66. # [00:11] <Philip`> "[off]" sounds like useful metadata that indicates interesting and/or juicy lines
  67. # [00:11] <Philip`> You should extract them all and publish them anonymously
  68. # [00:11] <shepazu> for money
  69. # [00:11] * jcranmer seconds Philip` 's idea
  70. # [00:11] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@137.164.255.6)
  71. # [00:11] * Quits: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@day114.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  72. # [00:11] <gsnedders> [off] The truth is, I'm gay.
  73. # [00:11] <Lachy> if people who post to the W3C WG mailing lists are worried about email harvesting, I have news for them!
  74. # [00:11] <krijnh> smedero: that would be solved by a regex (yeah yeah, I know they suck for URIs) changing it to some obfuscated string
  75. # [00:12] <Philip`> Reading through complete IRC logs is normally really boring, so it's good to highlight to private and controversial bits
  76. # [00:12] <shepazu> Lachy: anyone who posts to w3c mailing lists signs a waiver
  77. # [00:12] <Lachy> and since most, if not all people in #webapps would, it's not a problem worth worrying about in the IRC channel
  78. # [00:12] <anne-olpc> exchanging sensitive info is what /msg is for
  79. # [00:12] <krijnh> gsnedders: note to you gayman, [off] lines are still logged
  80. # [00:12] <smedero> right.
  81. # [00:12] <gsnedders> krijnh: I know :)
  82. # [00:12] <jcranmer> note to self: start a spambot who uses [off] lines
  83. # [00:12] <krijnh> gsnedders: I know you know :)
  84. # [00:12] <Lachy> shepazu, yeah, I know. I was just pointing out the futility of protecting email addresses in here, while they're all public in the list archive
  85. # [00:13] <gsnedders> krijnh: I know everything, but you don't know that.
  86. # [00:13] <Philip`> anne-olpc: /msg isn't for sensitive information - "Note: this server is INSECURE; you should assume that anyone could be listening to anything you say here."
  87. # [00:13] * Quits: heycam` (n=cam@124-168-70-30.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  88. # [00:13] <krijnh> gsnedders: just go do your outlining thing ;p
  89. # [00:13] <gsnedders> krijnh: Done, now :P
  90. # [00:13] <anne-olpc> as far the thing about krijnh being offline, the W3C should start competing!
  91. # [00:13] <krijnh> Really?
  92. # [00:13] <anne-olpc> that'd be great
  93. # [00:13] <gsnedders> krijnh: There were basically two bugs: one in the spec, one in the impl (because the spec was unclear)
  94. # [00:13] <krijnh> Ah okay
  95. # [00:14] <shepazu> anne-olpc: they plan to, iirc, but they are still setting up the bot to do it
  96. # [00:14] <gsnedders> krijnh: There's nothing yet to actually properly build it up into a TOC, though
  97. # [00:14] <krijnh> anne-olpc: should I introduce new features then as well?
  98. # [00:14] <anne-olpc> or the W3C could offer krijnh a more stable server or something
  99. # [00:14] <anne-olpc> krijnh:
  100. # [00:14] <krijnh> :D
  101. # [00:14] <anne-olpc> krijnh, sure, when needed :)
  102. # [00:15] <krijnh> I've introduced 30 subtitles this morning already ;)
  103. # [00:15] <gsnedders> krijnh: http://pastebin.com/mcdbe30b — that's a magic outline!
  104. # [00:15] <krijnh> That's enough for a while
  105. # [00:15] <shepazu> there are a lot of people (some team, some members) who are concerned about the privacy implications of logging at all, so I think this is a good compromise
  106. # [00:15] <anne-olpc> krijnh, yaeh, hehe
  107. # [00:15] <Hixie> these people realise that webapps is a public wg right?
  108. # [00:15] <anne-olpc> dude, typing sux0rs
  109. # [00:16] <krijnh> anne-olpc: you're not a child anymore, so in some way it makes sense an olpc sucks for you
  110. # [00:16] <anne-olpc> plastic buttons designed for people with small hands
  111. # [00:16] <krijnh> ^^
  112. # [00:16] <shepazu> anne-olpc: the keyboard is made for little kids, and you're like 8 feet tall
  113. # [00:16] <anne-olpc> uhuh
  114. # [00:16] <Philip`> Outline of the HTML5 spec: .--. | | '--'
  115. # [00:16] <anne-olpc> but it's nice :)
  116. # [00:16] <Philip`> Oh wait, that didn't work
  117. # [00:16] <Philip`> .--.
  118. # [00:16] <Philip`> | |
  119. # [00:16] <Philip`> '--'
  120. # [00:16] <Hixie> Philip`: hah
  121. # [00:16] <Philip`> There you go
  122. # [00:16] <krijnh> So, bottom line, do I want to go down the [off] route thingy?
  123. # [00:16] <shepazu> yeah, it's a cute lil machine
  124. # [00:16] <Hixie> your ratio is way off
  125. # [00:16] * Philip` wonders why irssi eats newlines
  126. # [00:17] <Hixie> it's like a 1000 page document by now
  127. # [00:17] <Philip`> Hixie: How about:
  128. # [00:17] <Philip`> |
  129. # [00:17] <Hixie> hah
  130. # [00:17] <Hixie> yeah
  131. # [00:17] <Philip`> assuming you have a very narrow font
  132. # [00:17] <Hixie> that's more like it :-)
  133. # [00:17] <Hixie> even a wider font
  134. # [00:17] <anne-olpc> krijnh, nope?
  135. # [00:17] <gsnedders> Nah, more like:
  136. # [00:17] <gsnedders> |
  137. # [00:17] <gsnedders> |
  138. # [00:17] <Hixie> krijnh: if you do, please make sure it doesn't work in #whatwg :-)
  139. # [00:17] <shepazu> krijnh: please, yes
  140. # [00:18] <krijnh> Bidding starts at $50
  141. # [00:18] <shepazu> if only on channels that request it
  142. # [00:18] * Joins: zendak (n=zendak@X446e.x.pppool.de)
  143. # [00:18] * anne-olpc bids against :)
  144. # [00:18] <zcorpan_> let's vote! :-p
  145. # [00:18] <krijnh> shepazu: I'll fix it for #webapps
  146. # [00:19] <anne-olpc> anyways, already said why it's a bad idea
  147. # [00:19] <shepazu> krijnh: thanks
  148. # [00:19] <shepazu> oops..
  149. # [00:19] <shepazu> [off] krijnh, thanks for furthering the cause of the privacy cabal
  150. # [00:19] <Hixie> anne: it's a terrible idea, but it makes perfect sense that the w3c would ask for it :-)
  151. # [00:19] <krijnh> shepazu: Although, having some experience in creating buggy stuff, I don't want to commit myself to this too much
  152. # [00:20] <hober> I find it worrisome, given that the wg is public
  153. # [00:20] <shepazu> heh
  154. # [00:20] <Philip`> krijnh: Opera 9.5 interacts badly with your log site
  155. # [00:20] * Quits: joaoeso1 (n=jta@193.126.199.180) (Connection timed out)
  156. # [00:20] <anne-olpc> Hixie, :/
  157. # [00:20] <krijnh> [off] Philip`: Opera sucks
  158. # [00:20] <anne-olpc> Hixie, some of the stuff recently...
  159. # [00:20] <krijnh> Ow, shit, it doesn't work in here :p
  160. # [00:20] <Philip`> krijnh: Its address bar tends to remember the address when I just type 'k', whereas Opera 9.2 was rubbisher and I had to keep typing in krijnhoetmer.nl and therefore learnt how to spell your name
  161. # [00:21] <anne-olpc> my OLPC says it's 17:14, but I think I'll go to bed
  162. # [00:21] <anne-olpc> nn
  163. # [00:21] <krijnh> :w
  164. # [00:21] <tndH> why not have a user option on the logs site? [ ] show secret conversations :D
  165. # [00:21] <krijnh> Philip`: I don't really see what you mean
  166. # [00:21] <Philip`> tndH: That can be a premium registration feature
  167. # [00:21] <krijnh> Pro accounts, tee hee
  168. # [00:21] <shepazu> nn, lil anne
  169. # [00:22] * zcorpan_ should go to bed as well
  170. # [00:22] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-219-217.dsl.pipex.com) ("I get eaten by the worms")
  171. # [00:22] <Hixie> i wonder if we should ask for an [off] feature for the wg mailing list archives as well
  172. # [00:22] * Philip` estimates he will go to bed in four hours, and then wake up an hour late tomorrow and get into work two hours late
  173. # [00:23] <krijnh> Hixie: that doesn't involve extra work for me, so I'm okay with that :)
  174. # [00:23] <shepazu> Hixie: people already sign a waiver there, so it's a false analogy
  175. # [00:24] <Hixie> hmm, maybe a better solution then is to make them sign a waiver for irc :-)
  176. # [00:24] * smedero supposes he'll go streaking through the public square with an [off] banner covering his twig and berries
  177. # [00:24] <shepazu> yep, that's a thought
  178. # [00:24] <shepazu> um, Hixie's thought, not smedero's :)
  179. # [00:24] <smedero> :)
  180. # [00:25] <smedero> now I suppose you want retroactive [off] too? :)
  181. # [00:25] <shepazu> no, I'll use my what-ifs for much more important things
  182. # [00:26] <smedero> haha, fair enough
  183. # [00:27] <smedero> maybe when our IRC nodes implement Dmitry Turin's IRC6 protocol the world will be a better place.
  184. # [00:27] <krijnh> Testint, testing
  185. # [00:27] <krijnh> [ow-damn-previous-line-should-be-off]
  186. # [00:27] <krijnh> That's my new feature when the W3C is going to compete with my logs ^
  187. # [00:28] <Philip`> http://futureoftheinternet.org/blog/ - Opera 9.5 puts the bottom half of the page in a <code> font, because there's a "<p>...<code></p>" - Opera really needs to use the HTML5 parsing algorithm :-)
  188. # [00:30] <Hixie> yes
  189. # [00:30] <Hixie> yes it does
  190. # [00:30] <Philip`> Also, good job blurring out the email address in the Passport screenshot
  191. # [00:31] <Hixie> krijnh: i wouldn't worry too much about the w3c competing with you... experience with html5 suggests that they are easy to compete with :-P
  192. # [00:31] <krijnh> lol
  193. # [00:31] <krijnh> Yeah well
  194. # [00:31] <krijnh> Depends on who's competing ;)
  195. # [00:31] <krijnh> Err, on who they're competing with
  196. # [00:31] <Hixie> the first step seems to be "Do something"
  197. # [00:32] <krijnh> Yeah, I'm busy, relax :)
  198. # [00:32] <Hixie> after that, you're home dry
  199. # [00:33] <Hixie> actually that's probably not fair, the w3c does do things, even if very slowly
  200. # [00:33] <Hixie> they just tend to do the wrong thing
  201. # [00:33] <krijnh> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/webapps/20080619
  202. # [00:33] <Hixie> you should make it white on black text :-)
  203. # [00:33] <Hixie> instead of italics
  204. # [00:34] <shepazu> yeah, Hixie is much faster about doing the wrong thing :)
  205. # [00:35] <Philip`> But none of us can beat Mozilla|Opera|Microsoft|Apple|etc at rapidly doing things wrong :-)
  206. # [00:37] <roc> we shipped 82 terabytes of wrongness yesterday and I'm pretty happy about that
  207. # [00:39] <Philip`> All we can do is write some words that will probably be ignored - there's no way to compete fairly :-(
  208. # [00:39] <roc> they won't be ignored
  209. # [00:39] <roc> this isn't 2001
  210. # [00:39] <Philip`> Well, that depends on which specs we're writing :-)
  211. # [00:39] <Philip`> and who "we" is
  212. # [00:40] <roc> oh sorry, are you working on XHTML2?
  213. # [00:40] <Philip`> "We" could be inclusive of the people who are
  214. # [00:41] <Philip`> I should probably say "is" instead of "could be" because then it'd look like I understood what I was saying before I said it, instead of making it up as I'm going along
  215. # [00:42] <Philip`> Anyway, HTML5 does seem to be one of the most efficient specs for getting wrongness deployed, since browser developers seem to trust it, so that's okay
  216. # [00:46] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
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  218. # [00:48] <othermaciej> written wrongness has much less effect than wrongness shipped in software, regardless of number of copies distributed
  219. # [00:49] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@user-64-9-232-182.googlewifi.com)
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  226. # [01:07] <Philip`> Have I already mentioned that I don't like it when the spec has identical paragraphs with different meanings?
  227. # [01:09] <othermaciej> when does that happen
  228. # [01:09] * Joins: joaoeso1 (n=jta@193.126.194.182)
  229. # [01:11] <Philip`> othermaciej: It says things like "If the image argument is an HTMLImageElement object whose complete attribute is false, then the implementation must raise an INVALID_STATE_ERR exception." referring to drawImage one time, and createPattern another time
  230. # [01:12] <Philip`> and I associate test cases with bits of the spec by copying the relevant spec text, and it gets all confused when trying to work out where in the spec that text came from if it's there twice :-(
  231. # [01:13] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@137.164.255.6) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  232. # [01:13] <roc> crikey, the IE layout team is huge
  233. # [01:13] <othermaciej> how many people are on it?
  234. # [01:14] <othermaciej> ad how do you know?
  235. # [01:14] <roc> I'm just counting the number of Microsoft people who've popped up in www-style and w3c-css-wg
  236. # [01:14] <Hixie> Philip`: heh
  237. # [01:15] <Hixie> roc: i'm not sure it's really working in their favour, to be honest
  238. # [01:15] <jcranmer> roc: there are some people on /. who think that MS's IE people don't contribute to CSS/HTML AT ALL
  239. # [01:15] <Hixie> i still can't get the 7 months it took to get the IE team's feedback on XHR
  240. # [01:16] <Hixie> still can't get over, even
  241. # [01:16] <jcranmer> Hixie: that's probably their backlog ;-)
  242. # [01:16] <Hixie> they were promising it any time now the whole time along
  243. # [01:16] <Hixie> and at the end even put it out under a clickthrough license before finally sending it to the list
  244. # [01:17] <Hixie> it's not like they said "it'll take 2 years" or whatever
  245. # [01:17] <othermaciej> roc: probably a lot of them are "Program Managers", not actual developers
  246. # [01:17] <hober> I thought this was nice: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jun/0114.html
  247. # [01:18] <roc> maybe so, but still makes for a big team
  248. # [01:20] <Hixie> i really wish i could see inside their day to day workings to see what's really going on
  249. # [01:20] * Quits: zendak (n=zendak@X446e.x.pppool.de) ("Ciao!")
  250. # [01:20] <Hixie> maybe someone can sue them and we can get some e-mails out in discovery like in comes vs microsoft
  251. # [01:20] <Hixie> (it's clear from those e-mails that they really were "evil" back in the late 90s)
  252. # [01:21] <Philip`> Hixie: That's why you should quit Google and get a job at Microsoft
  253. # [01:21] <Hixie> uh huh
  254. # [01:24] <Philip`> It'd be much more productive to work from the inside
  255. # [01:24] <roc> I count 7 people who seem to be doing technical work appearing on the CSS lists
  256. # [01:24] <roc> of course that's neither an upper nor a lower bound, but still
  257. # [01:25] <othermaciej> there also seem to be totally separate AJAX and JScript teams
  258. # [01:25] <Hixie> how about the other lists?
  259. # [01:25] <Hixie> yeah
  260. # [01:25] <Hixie> the "AJAX swat team" has been cc'ed multiple times on the webapps threads
  261. # [01:25] <Hixie> sometimes along with half a dozen other @microsoft.com addresses
  262. # [01:26] <othermaciej> and I'm like, "they have a whole team for XHR, and their main goal is not to change it in any way?"
  263. # [01:26] <roc> of course, if I was writing a new layout engine from scratch in 3 years I'd want a big team too
  264. # [01:26] <othermaciej> I wouldn't
  265. # [01:26] <hober> well, I bet it's more of an XDR team...
  266. # [01:26] <othermaciej> I would want 3 or 4 really good people
  267. # [01:26] <roc> I wouldn't at the start but I would at the end
  268. # [01:26] <othermaciej> maybe at the end
  269. # [01:26] <jcranmer> othermaciej: I don't that'd work for a 3-yr timeline
  270. # [01:27] <othermaciej> Safari was created in 1.5 years from project start
  271. # [01:27] <jcranmer> s/don't/doubt/
  272. # [01:27] <othermaciej> with a surprisingly small team
  273. # [01:27] <hober> you had khtml to start with
  274. # [01:27] <othermaciej> of course, we were building on an existing engine
  275. # [01:27] <jcranmer> othermaciej: but didn't Safari take webkit from elsewhere?
  276. # [01:27] <othermaciej> and expectations were lower
  277. # [01:27] <othermaciej> but the khtml of those days was far away from what was needed for compatibility, standards compliance, performance, etc
  278. # [01:28] <Hixie> woot, finally finished annotating the spec for the url stuff
  279. # [01:28] <othermaciej> then again, Microsoft has the old IE engine to look at and borrow code from
  280. # [01:29] <othermaciej> I would guess it is lower in code quality than the KHTML of 7 years ago though
  281. # [01:29] <othermaciej> if higher in compatibility
  282. # [01:29] <Hixie> why are we assuming a rewrite?
  283. # [01:29] <jcranmer> othermaciej: that's not a big a boon as you might expect
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  285. # [01:29] <mcarter> othermaciej, so are you a webkit developer, or are you on the safari team at apple, or are those the same thing?
  286. # [01:29] <othermaciej> well, that is how they described it
  287. # [01:29] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@137.164.255.6)
  288. # [01:29] <jcranmer> trust me, someone who's written the same code over three different times
  289. # [01:30] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64) (Remote closed the connection)
  290. # [01:30] <othermaciej> but it sounds like the only major reworking was layout, not other things like scripting or the DOM
  291. # [01:30] <othermaciej> and I don't know how truly "from scratch" that was
  292. # [01:30] <othermaciej> mcarter: I'm the manager of the WebKit team at Apple
  293. # [01:31] <othermaciej> (and I sideline as a developer on the WebKit open source project)
  294. # [01:31] <Hixie> i would imagine their "rewrite" is no more expansive in scope than firefox3's gecko "rewrite"
  295. # [01:31] <othermaciej> the WebKit team is part of the Safari Team though
  296. # [01:32] <Hixie> that is, lots of new code, lots of code replaced, but still an evolutionary path
  297. # [01:32] <mcarter> othermaciej, oh hey, thats great! That means there is actually a chance of seeing WebSocket native in a browser in the forseeable future, right?
  298. # [01:32] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  299. # [01:34] * Hixie renames the tcpconnection folder to "websocket"
  300. # [01:36] <othermaciej> mcarter: Apple doesn't comment on future product releases
  301. # [01:36] <othermaciej> I'm not sure I like the name WebSocket but I am not inclined to paint the bikeshed
  302. # [01:36] <othermaciej> I like that Web is in the name though :-)
  303. # [01:37] <Hixie> yeah basically i started from SocketConnection, added Web, then dropped Connection
  304. # [01:37] <Hixie> i'm open to better ideas
  305. # [01:38] <mcarter> I think WebSocket is pretty good. I mean, Web being in the name is nice. Socket implies that its a real duplex stream
  306. # [01:38] <mcarter> WebConnection sounds like a conference name or magazine or something
  307. # [01:39] <Hixie> hah
  308. # [01:45] <roc> othermaciej: there's one strange thing about not commenting on future product releases
  309. # [01:45] <roc> how does an open source project not make public comments about future plans?
  310. # [01:45] <Hixie> webkit doesn't have releases
  311. # [01:45] <Hixie> they do talk about plans, as far as i can tell
  312. # [01:45] <Hixie> at least that's my impression
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  314. # [01:46] <Hixie> i think i'm going to restructure sections 2 and 3 so that instead of being DOM and Structure, they're, like, "infrastructure" stuff, and then "semantics" stuff
  315. # [01:46] <Philip`> mcarter: Why should WebSocket have Web in the name, when pretty much every other web technology doesn't?
  316. # [01:46] <Philip`> The webbiness is implicit in the context, since you're going to be using it in a web page
  317. # [01:47] <Hixie> the whatwg puts "web" in the name of everything it does
  318. # [01:47] <mcarter> Philip`, so as not to confuse a WebSocket with a Socket due to the protocol differences
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  320. # [01:47] <gavin> I agree with Philip`. Also, just "Socket" is too long. It should be called "Sock".
  321. # [01:47] <mcarter> really we should name the protocol, and then name the api after the protocol
  322. # [01:47] <Hixie> Web Forms 2.0, Web Apps 1.0, Web Controls, Web Binding Language (the "whatwg internal name" for what is published as xbl2), etc
  323. # [01:48] <Hixie> the protocol is the Web Socket Something Protocol
  324. # [01:48] <Hixie> not sure what "Something" is. Not Transfer, not Transport, not Control
  325. # [01:48] <mcarter> given that the protocol name is the Web Socket Something Protocol, I think WebSocket sounds like a good name for the api
  326. # [01:48] <mcarter> Web Socket Stream Protocol?
  327. # [01:48] <Hixie> that works
  328. # [01:48] <Hixie> or Web Socket Streaming Protocol
  329. # [01:49] <Hixie> then again, that might make people think of streaming video
  330. # [01:49] <mcarter> yeah, thats a good point
  331. # [01:49] <takkaria> Web Socket Socket protocol?
  332. # [01:49] <mcarter> Web Socket Framing Protocol?
  333. # [01:49] <Hixie> Web Socket Duplex Framed Text And Binary Data Protocol
  334. # [01:49] <Hixie> WSDFTABDP
  335. # [01:50] <takkaria> just put a - after the WS and you can make people even more confused
  336. # [01:50] <Hixie> wsdftadbp://damowmow.com:81/news
  337. # [01:50] <mcarter> wow
  338. # [01:50] <Hixie> (though i think the scheme should just be ws:// actually)
  339. # [01:51] <Hixie> oh right, Web Socket Duplex Protocol is what i was thinking earlier
  340. # [01:51] <Hixie> WSDP
  341. # [01:51] <Hixie> or just Web Socket Protocol :-)
  342. # [01:51] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@user-64-9-232-182.googlewifi.com)
  343. # [01:51] <Philip`> Hixie: All those "Web"s are only in the names, not in the APIs
  344. # [01:52] <hober> I hope ws:// annoys soap people :)
  345. # [01:52] <mcarter> Philip`, really though, the reason that WebSocket should have the word web in it is that historically the Web hasn't had sockets. Calling something a web socket will be really good for establishing a strong recognition as to what the technology is and how it changes web applications
  346. # [01:52] <Hixie> what mcarter said
  347. # [01:52] <Philip`> Fair enough :-)
  348. # [01:53] * Philip` wonders if he'll be able to use it for peer-to-peer communication in the future
  349. # [01:53] <Hixie> not the way the current protocol is set up
  350. # [01:53] <mcarter> Philip`, what are the use cases of peer-to-peer connections?
  351. # [01:54] <mcarter> I was trying to justify the need for peer connections last night
  352. # [01:54] <roc> games
  353. # [01:54] <Philip`> mcarter: Sharing music illegally
  354. # [01:54] <roc> well, some games
  355. # [01:54] <Hixie> peer to peer across multiple subnets would be interesting, though a whole different problem than what the Web Socket Protocol solves
  356. # [01:55] <Hixie> not clear we could even use the same handshaking mechanism
  357. # [01:55] <Hixie> you have to deal with NATting and all kinds of issues
  358. # [01:55] <Hixie> (as in NATting on both ends)
  359. # [01:55] <roc> content distribution
  360. # [01:56] <roc> I was talking to some friends who work at a peer to peer content distribution company, mostly video. They're distributing a browser plugin to do it
  361. # [01:56] <Philip`> PC games often seem to work around NATs by using a third server to help initiate the connection, and that sometimes seems to work alright
  362. # [01:56] <roc> it's always nice if we can avoid the need for plugins
  363. # [01:56] <Hixie> well opera has built in bittorrent support :-)
  364. # [01:57] <roc> I don't think we want to write bittorrent into HTML5
  365. # [01:57] <Philip`> (though that probably only really works for UDP, not TCP, unless your NAT/firewall is dumb)
  366. # [01:58] <Philip`> (and I don't think HTML5 wants to reinvent TCP on top of UDP)
  367. # [01:58] <Hixie> that's all we need
  368. # [01:58] <Hixie> reaching even further down the stack to reinvent the web!
  369. # [01:58] <Hixie> maybe i can get vint to contribute
  370. # [01:59] <Philip`> Use case: I want to write an internet router in HTML
  371. # [01:59] <Hixie> feel free to file that in bugzilla
  372. # [02:00] <Philip`> Who needs fancy Cisco boxes when I could use a commodity PC running Firefox?
  373. # [02:04] <takkaria> I think a <scene> tag is more important than writing internet routers in HTML
  374. # [02:04] <Philip`> I want a <scone> tag
  375. # [02:04] <hober> I'm surprised Dmitry didn't beat Philip` to proposing one...
  376. # [02:05] <jmb> Philip`: that'd just open a huge bikeshed about how to pronounce it
  377. # [02:05] <takkaria> it wouldn't, you clearly pronounce it as "'s gone"
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  379. # [02:07] * Philip` fortunately agrees with takkaria
  380. # [02:22] <Hixie> don't look now, but the top of the spec right now is a mess.
  381. # [02:22] <Hixie> in case anyone is wondering what's going on
  382. # [02:23] <Hixie> i'm in the middle of reorganising everything again
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  386. # [02:45] <othermaciej> roc: I can comment on project plans, but I can't comment on when or whether Apple will ship anything in a product
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  388. # [02:46] <othermaciej> roc: although I don't have a formal authority role in the open source project or anything so I can only speak based on my knowledge, not as an official project representative
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  390. # [03:12] <roc> the distinction seems rather fine
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  392. # [03:15] <mcarter> Hixie, there may be some value to allowing the client to set headers on the WebSocket handshake
  393. # [03:26] <othermaciej> I can say "the WebKit project is interested in FooML, and John Doe might be working on it soon" but I can't say "Safari 5 will ship in 2 months with full FooML support"
  394. # [03:26] <roc> yeah
  395. # [03:30] <othermaciej> and yes, there could be confusing borderline cases, but that's the rough outline
  396. # [03:31] <othermaciej> the WebKit project is a technology provider, not a product organization
  397. # [03:31] <othermaciej> which I guess is somewhat unusual in the realm of open source projects
  398. # [03:31] <roc> not really
  399. # [03:31] <roc> the Linux kernel is the same
  400. # [03:32] <othermaciej> well I guess the fact that they ship releases is ultimately not very relevant to either what people get from Linux distros, or what totally bleeding edge fanboys run (which is probably straight out of someone's git tree)
  401. # [03:33] <othermaciej> so yeah, I can tell you we're working on the scheduler but not when Red Hat will ship those changes
  402. # [03:33] <othermaciej> to draw the analogy
  403. # [03:33] <roc> I'm actually surprised you haven't had to do some labelling of builds to indicate which ones are better than others
  404. # [03:34] <othermaciej> of nightly builds you mean?
  405. # [03:34] <roc> of any builds
  406. # [03:35] <roc> someone said you don't do releases
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  408. # [03:36] <othermaciej> well we have release/update branches which are generally managed by a specific port/vendor, but the project as a whole just develops on trunk, and we try to keep it stable enough that nightlies or even trunk SVN builds are usuable
  409. # [03:37] <othermaciej> the only releases that count are done by vendors/packagers though
  410. # [03:37] <roc> how do they know when to branch?
  411. # [03:37] <othermaciej> (well I guess others might look at it differently and say HEAD is the only release that counts)
  412. # [03:38] <othermaciej> they know when to branch by whatever their release cycle is, and hopefully by participating in the project enough to know what revisions are relatively stable and what fixes may need to be merged from trunk
  413. # [03:38] <roc> I see
  414. # [03:39] <roc> thanks
  415. # [03:39] <othermaciej> in practice many (though not all) vendors try to branch from the same point as Apple's releases, but sometimes with different fixes on top of that
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  418. # [03:50] <takkaria> there is now an up-to-spec C HTML5 tokeniser
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  446. # [06:43] <Hixie> i'm amused with the people who are complaining about http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0180.html
  447. # [06:43] <Hixie> e.g. in http://www.w3.org/mid/20080619005249.GI5647@sideshowbarker
  448. # [06:43] <Hixie> it's not clear to me what exactly the complaint is
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  468. # [08:32] <Dashiva> "'quality of argument' is a qualitative statement, showing support for an argument reinforces the argument"
  469. # [08:32] <Dashiva> In other words, if you repeat it enough times it becomes true?
  470. # [08:43] <takkaria> I would have thought showing support for an argument is only a quantitive measure, not a qualitative one
  471. # [08:44] <takkaria> sounds like a category mistake to me
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  477. # [08:57] <gsnedders> Hixie sure is doing well at not doing the URL section :)
  478. # [09:00] <Dashiva> It's like seeing myself procrastinate studying for exams, only way beyond my league
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  483. # [09:49] <shepazu> takkaria: you're assuming that the number is attached merely statistically... in fact, each +1 is the result of a qualitative judgment by a person on the subject matter, not merely an iteration of an instance
  484. # [09:50] <shepazu> Dashiva, in other words, if enough people agree with it, it may be worth taking a further look at it
  485. # [09:51] <shepazu> this isn't physics, folks... it's not modeling the real world... it's an interactive exercise in what direction people want the web to move
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  487. # [09:55] <Dashiiiva> And someone has to say stop when people are suggesting to move into brick walls :)
  488. # [09:58] <takkaria> shepazu: good counterargument
  489. # [09:59] <shepazu> Dashiiiva, agreed, but it's not being done correctly yet
  490. # [09:59] <shepazu> takkaria, thanks
  491. # [10:00] <shepazu> fwiw, I wasn't sitting here thinking of that the whole time... I just saw your comment :)
  492. # [10:01] <shepazu> mikesmith is doing good work in trying to impose a little order, mind you
  493. # [10:02] <takkaria> shepazu: I study philosophy, I'm in the business of arguing, not in the buisness of being right or wrong :)
  494. # [10:03] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-219-217.dsl.pipex.com) ("I get eaten by the worms")
  495. # [10:03] <shepazu> takkaria, then your qualitative assessment on my argument is worth even more :)
  496. # [10:03] <shepazu> ... or less
  497. # [10:03] <shepazu> ... or both!
  498. # [10:04] <Dashiiiva> Superposition until the specific judgement is observed
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  501. # [10:06] <shepazu> one of my smartest friends studied philosophy as his major... he knows about 5 languages, including japanese and some chinese... he now writes pen-and-paper RPGs, and jokes that he's a "dozenaire" :)
  502. # [10:06] <takkaria> I don't know about all that, I just appreciate good arguments :)
  503. # [10:07] <shepazu> heh
  504. # [10:09] <GDashiva> takkaria: Philosophize on the futility of quantitative judgement in a self-selecting, non-representative group of people :)
  505. # [10:18] <takkaria> actually, I've spent a fair bit of time recently thinking about consensus vs. dictatorial decision-making
  506. # [10:18] <shepazu> what's your conclusion?
  507. # [10:19] <takkaria> well, for the individual, consensus is best, but for the organism as a whole, some dictatorship/domination is required
  508. # [10:19] <takkaria> not an earth-shattering conclusion by any means, really
  509. # [10:20] <takkaria> but a similar problem exists when thinking about freedom of expression; for the individual, no restrictions on it are best, but for a society as a whole, some may be justified
  510. # [10:20] <takkaria> as such, there is an inevitable and eternal conflict where some people will be beaten down at the expense of others
  511. # [10:20] <takkaria> er, s/be beaten down/the dominating voices/
  512. # [10:21] <takkaria> and that there's not much one can do about it, really. bit pessimistic but there you go
  513. # [10:21] <shepazu> heh
  514. # [10:22] <shepazu> I prefer to think of it in terms of guides rather than controllers
  515. # [10:23] <shepazu> a smart leader knows when and how to follow the will of his constituents
  516. # [10:26] <takkaria> that only works in groups small enough, I'd say
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  518. # [10:27] <Hixie> i wonder how to split the spec up in terms of defining documents and defining the HTMLDocument object and defining the actual members
  519. # [10:27] <Hixie> same with elements, content models, HTMLElement, and the actual members
  520. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> Hixie: what would be the goal of splitting it in that way?
  521. # [10:29] <Hixie> which way?
  522. # [10:32] <hsivonen> how come it's OK for aptest.com to host the issue list of the XHTML2 WG but people complain about http://www.whatwg.org/issues/ being outside w3.org space?
  523. # [10:32] <Hixie> because i host whatwg.org, i guess
  524. # [10:33] <Hixie> same reason it wasn't ok for me to host the css issues list but fantasai can host it
  525. # [10:33] <Hixie> aha, this basic structure makes more sense
  526. # [10:33] <hsivonen> hmmkay.
  527. # [10:33] * Hixie has added a top-level section to the spec
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  529. # [10:34] <Hixie> hsivonen: (real answer is i've no idea, but i've long given up caring. though if you find out, do let me know.)
  530. # [10:34] <Philip`> hsivonen: Maybe just because more people are involved with HTML5 than with XHTML2, so if a small fraction objects then that's 0 people in XHTML2 but >= 1 people in HTML5
  531. # [10:35] <Hixie> heh
  532. # [10:39] <othermaciej> it's more because HTML5 is both successful and controversial
  533. # [10:39] <othermaciej> so people opposed to aspects of it are inclined to object
  534. # [10:39] <othermaciej> but people opposed to XHTML2 mostly just ignore it
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  538. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: is there a published doc/spec somewhere that includes a link to that aptest.com list?
  539. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> or that otherwise reference it?
  540. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> Hixie: same things for the CSS issues list?
  541. # [10:49] * GDashiva is now known as gDashiva
  542. # [10:49] <Hixie> i linked to it from my blog
  543. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> are those just referenced in editor's drafts or other WG-internal docs
  544. # [10:49] <Hixie> fantasai's is linked to from the csswg home page
  545. # [10:49] <Hixie> iirc
  546. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> Hixie: OK
  547. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> thanks
  548. # [10:49] <Hixie> (i'm absolutely fine with it myself)
  549. # [10:49] <Hixie> (and maybe people have complained, i don't know really. haven't heard of any complaints, but i don't follow css closely any more)
  550. # [10:50] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I see references from Virtual F2F minutes
  551. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> OK
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  553. # [10:53] <hsivonen> also in a draft Implemtation Report: http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/implementation-report/
  554. # [10:53] <Hixie> Philip`: just as a heads-up, when i'm done with this reorg, you'll probably want to update the spec splitter ids
  555. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: cool, thanks, that's even better
  556. # [10:54] <Hixie> hey did we ever hear back from the xhtml2wg about your request, mike?
  557. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I have not heard a peep
  558. # [10:55] <Hixie> k
  559. # [10:55] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I don't have a problem with the XHTML2 WG having a tracker outside w3.org
  560. # [10:55] <Hixie> and i assume the tag is still looking at my request and the svgwg still looking at the parsing issue
  561. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> I guess I could/should bring it up on the Hypertext CG call
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  563. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> Hixie: your TAG request is the one about the HTML features that affect Web architecture?
  564. # [10:56] <Hixie> MikeSmith: only if you think you can't get away with saying "well i asked and got no reply" when we try to publish
  565. # [10:56] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yeah
  566. # [10:56] <Hixie> the mathml wg was a breeze to work with
  567. # [10:56] <Hixie> i wish other wgs were that easy
  568. # [10:57] <Hixie> heck the mathml wg actually took over part of the html5 spec in an automated fashion (david carlisle, specifically, iirc)
  569. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> no idea of status on TAG thing. as far as SVG WG feedback on parsing issue, that's something else I can bring up on Hypertext CG call
  570. # [10:57] <Hixie> eh, don't worry about it
  571. # [10:57] <Hixie> there's no rush
  572. # [10:58] <Hixie> i'd rather they did a good thorough job, who knows, they might find some idea i missed
  573. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I have no problem with the XHTML2 WG having a tracker outside w3.org either
  574. # [10:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: fwiw, I just implemented SVG-in-text/html according to Hixie
  575. # [10:58] <hsivonen> (parsing that is)
  576. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, saw that
  577. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> Hixie: ok
  578. # [10:59] <Hixie> i expect one of the main browsers will do it at some point, and once they ship, well, too late
  579. # [10:59] * othermaciej wonders if Hixie maybe hopes the SVG WG's feedback doesn't arrive until after HTML5 reaches REC with no SVG support
  580. # [10:59] <Hixie> if we get to LC and they still haven't replied, i'll just un-comment-out the svg bits
  581. # [10:59] <Hixie> and they can send lc comments
  582. # [10:59] <Hixie> that gives them more than a year, which should be plenty of time :-)
  583. # [10:59] <shepazu> we are working on it, and plan to make a proposal in the next couple weeks... we are posting something public this week to our list
  584. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: for the record, I think WGs should have the discretion to be able to link to outside resources in their specs if they care to
  585. # [11:00] <Hixie> shepazu: awesome
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  587. # [11:00] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i'm surprised few people have mentioned the normative links to the whatwg wiki in html5 so far
  588. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> well, given that the HTML WG charter specifically mentions WHATWG, I don't think anybody should be very surprised to see those links there
  589. # [11:02] <Hixie> logic doesn't always prevail so successfully
  590. # [11:04] <Philip`> The "normative links to a wiki" aspect seems like more of a problem than the "normative links to WHATWG-controlled sites" aspect
  591. # [11:05] <Hixie> yeah i haven't heard much about that either
  592. # [11:05] <Hixie> in fact i've heard more positive noises than negative noises
  593. # [11:05] <Hixie> which really surprises me, given how radical an idea this is for the w3c world
  594. # [11:05] <Hixie> (e.g. MikeSmith, contrast that idea to what rigo said)
  595. # [11:05] <Hixie> (about the copyright thing)
  596. # [11:07] <Philip`> It could be considered fine to have those references for now while the spec is under development, because it's just a way of delegating editorship to anyone who has a wiki account, as long as it's folded into the spec in the future so that there's a stable language to implement
  597. # [11:08] * Hixie gets an internal error on v.nu
  598. # [11:08] <Philip`> so there's no need to complain about the wiki references now, but there will be if such a crazy idea makes it significantly further into the process towards REC
  599. # [11:08] <Hixie> Philip`: if people are expecting us to expect that to happen, i have news for them :-)
  600. # [11:08] <Hixie> but i think the spec is pretty clear about hte intent being permanent
  601. # [11:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: with what input?
  602. # [11:10] <Hixie> it said you were notified
  603. # [11:10] <hsivonen> Hixie: out of heap space
  604. # [11:10] <Hixie> input was the spec, but it runs fine when i do it using curl
  605. # [11:10] <Hixie> failed when i did it from the web
  606. # [11:10] <hsivonen> I guess I need to do some adjustments
  607. # [11:10] <Hixie> same source document
  608. # [11:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/source-whatwg is 404
  609. # [11:11] <Hixie> yeah it's transient, only works while the spec is being regenned
  610. # [11:11] <Hixie> do you want a copy?
  611. # [11:12] <hsivonen> yes, please
  612. # [11:12] <hsivonen> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/source works
  613. # [11:12] <hsivonen> I wonder if this is a transient issue of someone else validating something big at the same time
  614. # [11:12] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/source-whatwg-frozen
  615. # [11:13] <Hixie> i was doing it from the command line and the web interface simultaneously
  616. # [11:13] <Hixie> web died
  617. # [11:13] <Hixie> works now
  618. # [11:13] <hsivonen> ok. thanks
  619. # [11:13] <hsivonen> I suppose I should expose OOM in the UI
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  624. # [11:31] <Hixie> ok i've massively (and i do mean massively) reorganised the spec, moving a lot of stuff around
  625. # [11:31] <Hixie> (had to do all this to provide a logical place for the URLs section)
  626. # [11:32] <Hixie> i'd be interested in feedback on (a) whether i missed anything where paragraphs refer to "above" or "below" or whatever in now meaningless ways, and such problems, and (b) on whether the new structure makes sense to you and is at least as readable as the previous version.
  627. # [11:32] * MikeSmith gets ready for muffed-up diffs
  628. # [11:33] <Hixie> the text didn't change in any meaningful way, it was mostly just moving sections and updating headings, but i did make some very minor editorial changes here and there to keep things sane
  629. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> Hixie: request: when you do reorgs, preferably don't actually change any content at the same time
  630. # [11:33] <Hixie> yeah i try to keep it to an absolute minimum
  631. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> because then the diffs hide/obscure the content changes
  632. # [11:33] <hsivonen> hum does this relate to LEIRIs?
  633. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> Hixie: cool
  634. # [11:34] <Hixie> e.g. just changing "as it says above" to "as it says in the bla section" and things like that
  635. # [11:34] <Hixie> certainly nothing substantive
  636. # [11:34] <Hixie> hsivonen: who nows?
  637. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> holy god... 971K diff
  638. # [11:34] <Hixie> yeah like i said
  639. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> Hixie: you should apply for a world record
  640. # [11:34] <Hixie> major reorg :-)
  641. # [11:34] <Lachy> Hixie, why is the section discussing Link elements and relationships within the Web Browser section, instead of within the Element section?
  642. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> :)
  643. # [11:35] <Hixie> Lachy: it's within the hyperlinks subsection, which is within the section that introduces browsing contexts
  644. # [11:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: I thought LEIRIs were like IRIs but allow more control chars and take the LEIRI-to-URI conversion encoding from the context instead of assuming UTF-8
  645. # [11:36] <Lachy> and shouldn't the irrelevant attribute be in the Global attributes section?
  646. # [11:36] <Hixie> part of my URL plan is to remove all mention of IRIs
  647. # [11:36] <Hixie> so...
  648. # [11:37] <Hixie> Lachy: seemed more like an interaction thing
  649. # [11:37] * hsivonen expects reality to suck for my current IRI-wise correct code
  650. # [11:37] <Lachy> ok. Other than that, the new order looks reasonable.
  651. # [11:37] <Hixie> Lachy: but both those things didn't change with this reorg, so send mail or file a bug if you want those changed :-) (i could be very easily convinced to move them around)
  652. # [11:37] <Hixie> Lachy: sweet
  653. # [11:38] <Hixie> hsivonen: reality is certainly proving to suck huge genitals when it comes to the writing of the spec, so that wouldn't surprise me indeed.
  654. # [11:38] <Hixie> did you know that non-ascii characters are treated differently in the path section than the query section of a URL?
  655. # [11:38] <Lachy> ok, I review it a bit more thorougly and see whether or not it works as-is
  656. # [11:39] <hsivonen> that I didn't know
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  658. # [11:39] <Hixie> neither did i until very recently
  659. # [11:39] <Hixie> "dismayed" would be an appropriate word to use to describe my reaction to learning this
  660. # [11:39] <Hixie> anyway
  661. # [11:40] <Hixie> URLs are fun for tomorrow or friday
  662. # [11:40] <Hixie> for now i shall sleep
  663. # [11:40] <Hixie> if anyoen has input on the new structure, send mail or file a bug, i'll fix the fallout tomorrow
  664. # [11:40] <annevk> nn
  665. # [11:40] <Hixie> and thanks again everyone for the help :-)
  666. # [11:40] <Hixie> nn
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  672. # [12:33] <annevk> that diff is a mess
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  694. # [16:08] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  695. # [16:08] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
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  701. # [17:25] <annevk> aroben, would delaying script execution be really bad?
  702. # [17:25] <aroben> annevk: how do you delay it?
  703. # [17:25] <annevk> aroben, similarly to how it's done for layout today?
  704. # [17:26] <annevk> several engines at least first compute layout before returning offsetLeft or something for instance
  705. # [17:26] <aroben> annevk: in that case you're not waiting for IO, however
  706. # [17:28] <annevk> true, don't know whether that matters
  707. # [17:32] <aroben> annevk: in general I would think that waiting for a read from disk could take much longer than a layout could
  708. # [17:33] <annevk> maybe it should delay but there should also be an event that would be the recommended usage pattern?
  709. # [17:34] <annevk> I don't really want sessionStorage / localStorage to become async
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  713. # [17:51] <othermaciej> annevk, aroben: if you are talking about localStorage, all you have to do is wait for the local storage data (if there is any for that site) to load from disk before you start running the first script
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  715. # [17:51] <othermaciej> that's the same as waiting for the data for an external script pretty much
  716. # [17:51] <othermaciej> not quite the same thing as the offsetLeft case, which is stopping in the middle of script execution
  717. # [17:51] <othermaciej> I don't think the API needs to be async, just the implementation
  718. # [17:51] <aroben> annevk: if you allow authors to read before the event, then I don't think they'll ever wait for the event
  719. # [17:52] <aroben> othermaciej: yeah, waiting to start script execution seems a little better than pausing during script execution
  720. # [17:53] <othermaciej> pausing during script execution blocks the UI waiting on I/O, which is bad
  721. # [17:54] <othermaciej> and you can also have a master index of which sites have any per-site data, so you'd know up front whether the possible disk read is even needed
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  723. # [17:58] <annevk> in Opera it wouldn't block the UI
  724. # [17:58] <annevk> but I gues that's a problem other browsers have, yes
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  731. # [18:51] <Philip`> Hmm, does anyone want an IE8 Tech Beta invitation code?
  732. # [18:56] * smedero waves
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  735. # [19:03] <Dashiva> Was the xhtml2 wg this possessive about XHTML 1.0 all along?
  736. # [19:03] <annevk> prolly
  737. # [19:04] <annevk> I guess Steven made sure that the HTML WG charter didn't mention XHTML
  738. # [19:05] <Dashiva> Sucks to be xhtml then
  739. # [19:06] <om_meet> I guess the XML serialization of HTML we are mandated to do is somehow at the same time not XHTML
  740. # [19:06] * om_meet shrugs
  741. # [19:06] <Dashiva> But good news! They're going to remove appendix C from XHTML 1.0 to distance themselves from HTML as much as possible
  742. # [19:07] <annevk> It just happens that our XHTML means HTML as XML
  743. # [19:07] <annevk> It's not at all the same! :p
  744. # [19:07] <Dashiva> That means everyone agrees no xhtml over text/html
  745. # [19:08] <jcranmer> will IE 8 accept application/xhtml+xml, then?
  746. # [19:09] <annevk> What does this have to do with IE 8?
  747. # [19:09] <Dashiva> I don't think MS cares much about xhtml2
  748. # [19:12] <hober> I guess nothing ever came of the XHTML2 rebranding effort
  749. # [19:14] <Dashiva> They rebranded?
  750. # [19:14] <annevk> they're calling themselves the XHTML WG and are working on XHTML 1.x stuff mostly
  751. # [19:14] <hober> "Those design choices have led to XHTML 2.0 having an identity distinct from HTML. With the chartering of the XHTML 2 Working Group,
  752. # [19:14] <annevk> the original XForms WG asked to be renamed to Forms WG to make it more clear that they were about all Forms, but then they're calling themselves XForms WG everywhere...
  753. # [19:14] <hober> W3C will continue its technical work on the language at the same time it considers rebranding the technology to clarify its independence
  754. # [19:14] <Dashiva> That could be misunderstood as even xhtml2 wg having given up on xhtml2 ;)
  755. # [19:14] <hober> and value in the marketplace." -- http://www.w3.org/2007/03/html-pressrelease
  756. # [19:14] <Lachy> apparently they plan on doing an XHTML 1.2
  757. # [19:14] <annevk> I'm not sure if there's any logic
  758. # [19:15] <Dashiva> annevk: They want to be Forms WG to own forms, but they want to be XForms WG because that makes it clear they hate all other kinds of forms
  759. # [19:15] <deane> annevk, xhtml was in the orignal charter, SP and others made timbl remove it though: http://www.w3.org/2006/11/HTML-WG-charter.html#scope
  760. # [19:16] <deane> new charter: http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter
  761. # [19:16] <hober> ugh
  762. # [19:17] <annevk> deane, actually, I think browser vendors might have requested that, because we didn't want to work on modularization
  763. # [19:18] <annevk> (and I still don't, seems like a waste of time)
  764. # [19:19] <Philip`> Monolithicity wins!
  765. # [19:19] <Lachy> annevk, that doesn't make sense. XHTML 1.0 wasn't modularised and if the charter didn't mention 1.1, then there would be no reason to assume modularisation
  766. # [19:19] <hober> right.
  767. # [19:19] <annevk> Lachy, "the series of specifications previously published as XHTML version 1" includes XHTML Modularization afaik
  768. # [19:19] <hober> I mean, it's pretty clear by now that XHTML 1.1 : XHTML 1.0 :: XML 1.1 : XML 1.0
  769. # [19:20] <Lachy> yeah, they should have rephrased it to say XHTML, but without referring to the whole series of specs
  770. # [19:20] <annevk> I can agree with that
  771. # [19:20] <Philip`> hober: Does that mean they're going to backport the XHTML 1.1 changes into XHTML 1.0?
  772. # [19:20] <Lachy> but, whatever, it says we need an XML serialisation, and that means XHTML anyway
  773. # [19:20] <annevk> I'm not sure I agree that XHTML version 1 excludes XHTML 1.1
  774. # [19:20] <hober> Philip`: heh.
  775. # [19:23] <deane> annevk, what's the deal with the forms WG? I asked if I could join and it took them 3 weeks to get back to me, then I was asked to give "some backgound info" on myself
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  781. # [19:34] * aroben|phone is now known as aroben
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  787. # [20:03] <gsnedders> jgraham__: Bug in your outliner: the header element has a rank equal to 1.
  788. # [20:04] <om_meet> does Opera 9.5 support HTML5 <video> and <audio>?
  789. # [20:06] <hasather_> om_meet: no
  790. # [20:26] <mcarter> Hixie, how goes URLs?
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  796. # [20:56] <annevk> deane, I think they (Forms and XHTML2 WG) have a stricter policy on allowing individuals to join their WG
  797. # [20:58] * annevk likes the WebSocket stuff
  798. # [20:59] <deane> annevk, yes, and I think we all know how successful closed groups are
  799. # [21:00] <mcarter> annevk, is that in a draft somewhere, or are you referring to the mailing list / irc logs about WebSocket?
  800. # [21:00] <annevk> mcarter, just the buzz :)
  801. # [21:00] <mcarter> heh
  802. # [21:01] <annevk> deane, fortunately for you there are open alternatives :)
  803. # [21:01] <mcarter> you can almost feel it just joining the irc channel...
  804. # [21:02] <Philip`> We don't keep the riffraff out!
  805. # [21:03] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.86) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  806. # [21:03] * hober drafted a personal reply to the xhtml2 wg email
  807. # [21:03] <hober> any comments / suggestions / etc. before I post?
  808. # [21:03] <hober> http://edward.oconnor.cx/tmp/xhtml2-reply.txt
  809. # [21:04] <deane> Some fool thought that the next version of XHTML was going to be XHTML2: http://digg.com/programming/HTML5_differences_from_HTML4?t=7211519#c7212068
  810. # [21:04] <deane> so I corrected him :)
  811. # [21:06] * Philip` tries to work out how to make that link show the actual comment
  812. # [21:07] <deane> hober: run it past mike first, I was talking to him today about this
  813. # [21:07] <Philip`> Hmm, now it's scrolling me back to the top of the screen every few hundred milliseconds
  814. # [21:07] <Philip`> Oh, there it goes
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  819. # [21:10] <hober> deane: I'll wait a day or so; he's in-channel and can comment on it whenever--I read the logs when I'm not present
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  830. # [22:15] <hober> Reworked that draft email w/ feedback from h3h, who signed as well.
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  836. # [22:56] <Lachy> hober, that's quite a well written draft.
  837. # [22:56] <Lachy> But I have a small issue with it...
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  839. # [22:56] * hober perks up
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  841. # [22:57] <Lachy> where you talk about how XHTML2 follows a trajectory from HTML4/XHTML1, it's not really clear to me how they have done that at all.
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  843. # [22:58] <hober> I struggled with the wording there
  844. # [22:58] <Lachy> It seems to me that the XHTML2 group simply discarded the past and started from scratch
  845. # [22:58] <hober> Because they clearly believe that they're along such a trajectory
  846. # [22:58] <hober> So I tried to describe what such a trajectory might be
  847. # [22:58] <Lachy> although, in a sense, it is somewhat inspired by (X)HTML, since it does share a few element names
  848. # [22:59] <hober> right
  849. # [23:00] <hober> I think rhetorically it's important to acknowledge both groups' stories
  850. # [23:00] <hober> whether or not I understand either
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  852. # [23:00] <hober> Maybe I can dig up a quote from them, and then skip trying to describe it myself.
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  854. # [23:01] <hober> That sound good?
  855. # [23:01] <Lachy> maybe say something about how it doesn't directly build upon XHTML1, it has been inspired by the past
  856. # [23:02] <Hixie> hober: the mail from the xhtmlwg is about the "relationship to xhtml1.x" section, not about xhtml2
  857. # [23:02] <Lachy> with a goal of building a new foundation
  858. # [23:02] <Lachy> ah, yeah. good point.
  859. # [23:03] * Lachy wonders how to tell the XHTML2 WG that their work on XHTML 1.x is irrelevant, without offending anyone.
  860. # [23:04] <Hixie> i wouldn't bother
  861. # [23:04] <Hixie> mike will take care of it
  862. # [23:04] <Lachy> ok
  863. # [23:04] <Hixie> speaking of which, is MikeSmith around?
  864. # [23:05] <Lachy> Hixie, he's probably asleep. It's 05:00 in his timezone
  865. # [23:05] <Hixie> that doesn't mean much
  866. # [23:05] <Dashiva> Not everyone is you, Hixie :)
  867. # [23:06] <Hixie> it doesn't mean much for MikeSmith either as i understand it :-)
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  869. # [23:06] <Dashiva> I must say, MikeSmith is being really chair-y. I hope he sticks to it
  870. # [23:06] <Lachy> yeah, he's been good
  871. # [23:06] <Dashiva> Things are happening, things are being done
  872. # [23:06] * gsnedders sits on MikeSmith
  873. # [23:07] <Dashiva> (I just noticed the potential cheery pun. Sorry.)
  874. # [23:08] <gsnedders> (I just made the obvious, old, joke)
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  879. # [23:22] <Hixie> annevk: i don't understand http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008AprJun/0255.html
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  887. # Session Close: Fri Jun 20 00:00:00 2008

The end :)