/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-06-25 / end

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1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 25 00:00:00 2008
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:02] <hsivonen> wishful thinking from many years ago: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/misc/table-scroll/
4. # [00:02] <roc> wishful thinking? that would work in Gecko
5. # [00:03] <hsivonen> roc: I wasn't aware. With what CSS?
6. # [00:03] <hsivonen> no action in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53702
7. # [00:04] <roc> see this example https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=310440
8. # [00:04] <roc> and ignore the background-painting bug
9. # [00:05] <hsivonen> roc: cool! do the theads/tfoots of nested tables stack as in my illustration when a nested table is showing?
10. # [00:05] <roc> no, nothing special there
11. # [00:07] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2008Jun/0036.html is special
12. # [00:08] <Hixie> "we work with browser developers" "which ones?" "well i hope we work with browser developers"
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15. # [00:16] <gsnedders> browsers? peh!
16. # [00:16] <gsnedders> Google is the future!
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24. # [01:10] <othermaciej_> Hixie: hilarious
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26. # [01:12] <jgraham__> I really have no idea how one would respond to the TAG's finding that transmitting passwords in plain text is A Bad Idea...
27. # [01:13] <Philip`> We should respond by deprecating <input type="password"> if the document has been served over HTTP
28. # [01:14] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
29. # [01:14] <jgraham__> Philip`: That wouldn't help because it would just make people more likely to use something that didn't even do password masking
30. # [01:16] <jgraham__> (or to roll their own solution, or to use javascript to set the input type to password)
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34. # [01:33] <takkaria> I would like to know why they spent so much time working out that transmitting passwords in the clear is bad
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38. # [01:41] * Philip` has a site which just sends username=foo, password=whatever cookies on every request
39. # [01:43] <Philip`> "When a password is transmitted in clear text, it is vulnerable in many ways:" "2. The password is available in browsing history. Most web browsers provide 'back' navigation to previous pages, with content locally cached for performance as well as ease of use for the user. These pages are stored in memory and are relatively easy to examine." - what has that point got to do with transmission?
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41. # [01:43] <Philip`> Caching of form field values seem orthogonal to any issues of clear/encrypted transmission
42. # [01:43] <Philip`> *seems
43. # [01:44] <Philip`> "It is estimated that between 1 and 2 percent of e-commerce transactions are related to fraud." [citation needed]
44. # [01:46] <Philip`> It would be helpful if they defined what a password is
45. # [01:47] <Philip`> If I'm typing my pet's name into a "forgot your password?" page, does that count as a password itself?
46. # [01:47] <Philip`> What if it's a one-time password, and nobody could use it later even if they intercepted it?
47. # [01:48] <Philip`> "There are no scenarios where it is possible to transmit passwords in the clear without risk." - how about connecting to my local router's web interface?
48. # [01:49] <Philip`> The only machines involved are mine and the router, so nobody's going to be able to intercept anything during transmission
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51. # [02:08] <Hixie> yay http://www.google.nl/intl/nl/doodle4google/
52. # [02:08] <Hixie> (look at the source)
53. # [02:09] <Philip`> It's non-conforming :-(
54. # [02:10] <Philip`> <img src="images/logo.png" alt="Google"> needs to say alt="Doodle 4 Google - Mijn Nederland" to be equivalent to the image
55. # [02:12] <Philip`> (Actually, HTML5 is too hard to read for me to work out whether that's what alt should be in that case, but it seems the only logical text for an image that contains words)
56. # [02:13] <Hixie> The image only conveys "Google", imho, given that the rest of hte text in the image is already on the page elsewhere
57. # [02:13] <Hixie> so actually i'd defend the page
58. # [02:13] <Hixie> though both could probably be argued
59. # [02:13] <Philip`> The image conveys "Doodle 4 Google - Mijn Nederland" to me, given that that's what it says :-p
60. # [02:14] <Hixie> :-)
61. # [02:14] <Hixie> I don't think it would be better for the page to say that twice when the image isn't shown
62. # [02:15] * Hixie slams into an html-koolade-vacuum on the ietf uri mailing list
63. # [02:15] <Philip`> What "would be better" is not necessarily related in any way to what's conforming HTML5
64. # [02:15] <Hixie> html5-koolade-vacuum, i should say
65. # [02:15] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah
66. # [02:15] <Hixie> Philip`: not sure what the spec should say to handle this case
67. # [02:16] <Hixie> "A client or browser MUST NOT transmit passwords in clear text."
68. # [02:16] <Hixie> well
69. # [02:16] <Hixie> that could be a problem
70. # [02:16] <Hixie> someone please make a special build of firefox for the tag
71. # [02:17] <roc> one without support for text inputs?
72. # [02:17] <Hixie> one that refused to transmit type=password inputs over http
73. # [02:18] <Hixie> refuses
74. # [02:18] <Hixie> as in, won't include the contents of such form fields in unencrypted http requests
75. # [02:19] <Philip`> I think the spec should just give guidelines like "if all images on the page are replaced with their alt text, then the page should make sense and not lose information" that people can read and understand and apply in every case they come across - the more the spec tightens its grip on specific cases with 'must' requirements, the more unhandled cases will slip through its metaphorical fingers (and the more people will say "tl;dr" and ignore it entirely
76. # [02:19] <Philip`> )
77. # [02:19] <roc> I've sometimes thought it would be cool to figure out what your credit card number is and refuse to submit it over HTTP
78. # [02:19] <Philip`> Well, maybe that's not a very good metaphor :-(
79. # [02:20] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, maybe
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81. # [02:23] <Philip`> roc: Web developers seem quite ingenious at working around arbitrary restrictions - I imagine someone would publish an article saying you just have to do <form onsubmit="ccnumber.value = ccnumber.value.split('').reverse().join('')"> and give some PHP code to undo the effects on the server, and then millions of people will start doing that
82. # [02:23] <roc> yeah
83. # [02:23] <othermaciej> dedicated attackers with fraudulent sites are probably more of a threat these days than developers making honest mistakes and information being leaked by sniffing
84. # [02:23] <roc> especially phishers
85. # [02:24] <roc> actually the goal would be to stop phishers
86. # [02:24] <roc> so you'd have additional restrictions
87. # [02:24] <roc> but it wouldn't really work
88. # [02:24] <roc> because they'd do keystrokes + AJAX or have the user click on a keypad or something
89. # [02:25] * Hixie tries to reply to the tag politely
90. # [02:26] <Philip`> There could be a special anti-phishing meta tag, that causes web browsers to take a screenshot of the page, and then whenever you visit a page on a different domain it compares against the original screenshot and if it looks too similar then the new page is probably a phishing attempt
91. # [02:27] <roc> we could just do that always
92. # [02:27] <roc> too bad if a site changes domains
93. # [02:27] <Hixie> that would be awesome in so many ways
94. # [02:27] * Hixie objects in advance on behalf of google
95. # [02:30] <Philip`> Perhaps what we should do is allow passwords in plain text, but require URLs to be encrypted
96. # [02:30] <Philip`> Then an attacker would know your password but wouldn't know what sites they could use it on
97. # [02:33] <Hixie> frank's advice about how to handle the uri mess: "stay out of trouble"
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100. # [02:55] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/g3s3s1$7jg$1@ger.gmane.org is also pretty special
101. # [02:55] <Hixie> "please don't complicate our standards process with reality"
102. # [03:10] <othermaciej> what is a LEIRI?
103. # [03:10] <othermaciej> why must *RIs be renamed every two years?
104. # [03:11] <Philip`> Is it pronounced "lairy"?
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349. # [06:01] <MikeSmith> Shyam Habarakada from Microsoft -- who's been posting to the Geolocation list -- seems to be an actual developer
350. # [06:01] <MikeSmith> as opposed to PM or whatever
351. # [06:01] <MikeSmith> http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamhabarakada
352. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> Sr. Development Lead at Microsoft
353. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> cool to have an actual developer from MS participating in something
354. # [06:12] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
355. # [06:16] <MikeSmith> looks like he's a Safari user also
356. # [06:16] <MikeSmith> http://shyamh.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!D3D369DD6211F237!1168.entry
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366. # [06:21] <othermaciej> so mixed messages regarding his taste in browsers
367. # [06:28] <mcarter> that post doesn't send a mixed message at all
368. # [06:29] <mcarter> it says "safari won't use my favorite search engine, live search, but i managed to change the settings so that its just like my favorite browser, IE"
369. # [06:30] <othermaciej> he doesn't really say IE is his favorite, just indirectly seems to favor its "search democracy"
370. # [06:32] <mcarter> i suppose so
371. # [06:33] <mcarter> has the IE team ever sent the webkit team a cake around the time of a major release?
372. # [06:48] <roc> the downside of not doing webkit releases, eh
373. # [07:08] * roc wonders who was responsible for deciding that SVG gradients and patterns should be able to "inherit" attributes from other gradients and patterns referenced by ID
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385. # [08:54] <takkaria> hmm, is it really "resolve a URL" and "parse a URL"?
386. # [08:55] <takkaria> I'd have thought it should be "an URL"
387. # [08:55] <takkaria> I guess it depends if you spell out URL or not... we obvious need some of RB's abbr tag extensions here
388. # [08:55] <hsivonen> takkaria: I think the expected pronunciation doesn't start with a vowel: you are ell
389. # [08:59] <takkaria> everyone else has weird expectations. :)
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392. # [09:06] <Dashiva> When in doubt, rephrase the sentence to use definite articles
393. # [09:07] <Hixie> i call them "you are ells" because "earl" is just silly
394. # [09:08] <Hixie> but then i call it "ess queue ell" and not "sequel" so what do i know
395. # [09:08] <Hixie> however, since i'm writing the spec... :-)
396. # [09:09] <takkaria> I talk about earls and spell out SQL
397. # [09:09] <takkaria> sequel is blatantly a lie
398. # [09:10] * gavin_ is in the "earl is silly" camp
399. # [09:13] <mcarter> are Frode Børli or Philipp Serafin in this channel?
400. # [09:14] <mcarter> I'm a little confused by their tcp connection discussion on th elist
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402. # [09:18] <Hixie> man at some point i need to go through the spec and make it more consistent about whether attributes are their value, contain their value, or have their value
403. # [09:18] <Hixie> right now i use all three interchangeably and it sounds like three different people wrote the spec
404. # [09:18] <Hixie> how embarassing
405. # [09:21] <takkaria> I'm sure it can be forgiven given the size of the spec, really :)
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411. # [09:50] <takkaria> ah, all these "Act as if ... had been seen" bits are doing my head in
412. # [09:52] <Hixie> oh?
413. # [09:52] <Hixie> why?
414. # [09:53] <gDashiva> Act as if you understand this part of the spec
415. # [09:53] <takkaria> I think it's probably because I'm going about implementing it the wrong way but sometimes it just seems unnecessary
416. # [09:55] <takkaria> in the "in table body" tree construction step, for example, for some cases it tells you to act as if an end tag with the same tag name as the current node had been seen
417. # [09:55] <takkaria> when all that actually amounts to is popping the current node from the stack of open elements
418. # [09:56] <takkaria> I understand that if you want to update things in the future, this makes it a bit easier, but it can get a little annoying
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420. # [09:57] <takkaria> I think I'm just best sorting out an easy to to call the tree construction phase from within itself to save all the faffing
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422. # [09:58] <Hixie> takkaria: when i implemented it myself i just called the tree constructor again with a fake token whenver the spec said that
423. # [09:59] <Hixie> i'll probably optimise those calls away when the spec is more stable
424. # [10:00] <takkaria> yeah, I'm going that route I think, but the data structures are set up such that it's a good ten lines of code to create a token and whatnot :)
425. # [10:00] * takkaria blames C
426. # [10:00] <Hixie> write a macro :-)
427. # [10:01] <Hixie> (or a function)
428. # [10:01] <takkaria> macro is looking more likely
429. # [10:01] <Hixie> hsivonen: the e-mail you sent to www-archive just now is pretty much exactly what i told the w3c legal team a few days ago independently when they said that they were scared of having the html5 spec mention that the whatwg version was under a more permissive license
430. # [10:02] <Hixie> (the ultimate irony here, that html5 _itself_ proves that copyright doesn't stop forks, is apparently lost on them)
431. # [10:03] <Hixie> (indeed, the copyright on html4 actually helped the fork, as it prevented us from going down the obvious, but flawed, route of starting from the html4 spec instead of a blank slate)
432. # [10:14] <hsivonen> takkaria: I think the most non-obvious as ifs are that </p> and </br> may cause an implicit <p> or <br> which trigger breaking out of foreign content
433. # [10:15] <takkaria> heh, I'm not up to there yet
434. # [10:15] <takkaria> I look forward to it ^_^
435. # [10:15] <Philip`> takkaria: Just use goto
436. # [10:15] <takkaria> goto Philip`; /* useful advice here */
437. # [10:17] <takkaria> mm, this code really isn't structured for emitting fake tokens
438. # [10:17] <hsivonen> takkaria: I inlined as ifs
439. # [10:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: as far as UI goes if there's an open source spec for SVG5 and a W3C Document License doc for SVG 1.1, chances are that I'd take UI strings from the SVG5 spec even if it was otherwise less successful
440. # [10:19] <takkaria> is SVG in need of a SVG5?
441. # [10:19] <hsivonen> takkaria: oh yes
442. # [10:20] <shepazu> yeah, takkaria, anything these guys didn't invent, they need to control and call "xxx5"
443. # [10:20] <takkaria> ah, there the whatwg goes again, destroying my faith in the ability of people to get things right
444. # [10:21] <Hixie> believe me, i don't want to control svg
445. # [10:21] <shepazu> hmmm... try again, this time with feeling
446. # [10:22] <hsivonen> shepazu: my point was that if one spec lets me reuse content and another doesn't, chances are that I'd end up using the one that I'd be allowed to use and, hence, not licensing specs as open source may actually encourage people looking for alternative expressions of the content
447. # [10:24] <shepazu> that is rather convoluted reasoning... if I release a software product, and someone creates a cracked key, you endorse using the cracked version rather than the legitimate one?
448. # [10:24] <shepazu> I'm not sure that's ethical
449. # [10:24] <hsivonen> shepazu: for example, validator.nu pulls UI string from whatwg.org and not w3.org, not because I wanted to favor WHATWG but because the WHATWG versions allows me to do that
450. # [10:24] <gDashiva> shepazu: So you're saying you don't want people to use w3c specs unless they pay for a key?
451. # [10:25] <hsivonen> shepazu: your analogy seems flawed
452. # [10:25] <shepazu> but if the work is derivative, hsivonen, it amounts to the same thing, and actually promotes schisms in the implementations
453. # [10:25] <gDashiva> No, forcing people to create dervative works is what promotes schisms
454. # [10:26] <hsivonen> shepazu: no, incentivizing people to clean-room spec text creates schisms
455. # [10:26] <shepazu> gDashiva: W3C specs are royalty free... nobody's forcing anyone to create derivative works
456. # [10:26] <shepazu> "clean-room spec text"?
457. # [10:27] <hsivonen> shepazu: If I want UI text for SVG elements, I can't extract text from the SVG spec and get the result in Debian
458. # [10:27] <hsivonen> shepazu: HTML5 is not a derivative work of HTML 4.01. It is an independent creative expression.
459. # [10:27] <shepazu> that's rather a stretch...
460. # [10:27] <hsivonen> shepazu: what is?
461. # [10:28] <shepazu> the latter
462. # [10:28] <Hixie> i can vouch for the fact that not a single word from html4 was copied into html5
463. # [10:28] <shepazu> how about <h1>
464. # [10:28] <shepazu> ?
465. # [10:28] <Hixie> how about it?
466. # [10:28] <shepazu> that's not derivative?
467. # [10:29] <Hixie> not in the copyright sense
468. # [10:29] <shepazu> probably true
469. # [10:29] <gDashiva> They both use 'HTML' too. The nerve.
470. # [10:29] <hsivonen> shepazu: IANAL, but I suggest looking up court cases where it was found that strings that have to be invariant for computer program interop are copyable
471. # [10:29] <shepazu> and of course, TBL didn't create the initial syntax, it was derived from SGML
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562. # [10:34] <gDashiva> There goes the accountability
563. # [10:34] <gDashiva> And it's back
564. # [10:34] <hsivonen> shepazu: the email was primarily about companion documents for HTML5. What I said about SVG on this channel was an illustratory example.
565. # [10:36] <shepazu> hsivonen: then maybe you should consider less controversial phrasing, so you don't cause unnecessary misunderstandings before starting a friendly dialog?
566. # [10:36] <takkaria> I didn't have any problem understanding it...
567. # [10:36] <gDashiva> Maybe people should read up on context before jumping into discussions with tempers flaring
568. # [10:36] <hsivonen> shepazu: OK. I'll use FooML or MathML from now on for hypothetical non-HTML examples.
569. # [10:37] <shepazu> takkaria: you aren't the only audience that this public channel attracts
570. # [10:38] <Philip`> hsivonen: Are you insulting MathML by calling it hypothetical?
571. # [10:38] <hsivonen> shepazu: fwiw, the context was Hixie's comment about the effect of not being allowed to reuse HTML 4.01 text
572. # [10:38] <takkaria> shepazu: no, but I didn't think there an implicit threat in anything hsivonen said at all, it was about using UI strings and read in the context of the email he sent to www-archive, it was pretty clear
573. # [10:39] <hsivonen> Philip`: "hypothetical" qualifies "example"
574. # [10:40] <shepazu> takkaria: when I hear the term SVG5, I take that to mean, "a version of SVG that we have created as a competitor", and I am pretty intent on preventing a schism for SVG... and I don't believe that I'm far of in that assessment
575. # [10:40] <shepazu> far off, rather
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577. # [10:41] <takkaria> shepazu: I'm pretty sure no-one here has active plans to create a competing SVG spec, even if they think someone should
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579. # [10:42] <hsivonen> shepazu: that's indeed what "SVG5" meant. But the *point* was that licensing W3C specs more permissively would eliminate a class of cases where a competitor would be favored due to copyright considerations.
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581. # [10:42] <shepazu> takkaria: I don't share your optimism
582. # [10:42] <shepazu> hsivonen: that's reasonable
583. # [10:43] <Hixie> the hypothetical SVG5 isn't a competitor -- ideally, the SVGWG would be the one to write it
584. # [10:43] <Hixie> if they did, it would save everyone a lot of trouble
585. # [10:43] <hsivonen> I agree
586. # [10:43] <Hixie> (isn't necessarily a competitor, i should say)
587. # [10:43] <takkaria> shepazu: I'm not sure it's optimism; if someone was working on SVG5, they would have mentioned it
588. # [10:44] <shepazu> takkaria: they did... Hixie proposed it in HTML5
589. # [10:44] <shepazu> just not with that moniker
590. # [10:44] <takkaria> that's not the same as "working on", though
591. # [10:44] <othermaciej> he did?
592. # [10:45] <hsivonen> shepazu: no, an "SVG5" would tweak the above-DOM parts
593. # [10:45] <shepazu> hsivonen: by your definition, perhaps
594. # [10:45] <hsivonen> shepazu: what Hixie proposed in the SVG spec and what I implemented in the Validator.nu parser is on the same level as XML 1.0 is to SVG
595. # [10:45] <shepazu> but I don't agree with your definition
596. # [10:45] <Hixie> surely hsivonen's definition is the one that matters if you're going to be offended by him using the term
597. # [10:46] <othermaciej> I find the term SVG5 offensive to persons of Polish descent
598. # [10:46] <shepazu> I'm actually more concerned about your definition, Hixie
599. # [10:46] <takkaria> othermaciej: I don't find it offensive, and I'm of Polish descent
600. # [10:46] <othermaciej> please stop use of this obvious racist slur
601. # [10:46] <takkaria> though the Latvian bit of me isn't very happy with it
602. # [10:47] <othermaciej> takkaria: maybe by your definition
603. # [10:47] <hsivonen> s/what Hixie proposed in the SVG/what Hixie proposed in the HTML5/
604. # [10:47] <shepazu> yeah, mockery is a pretty effective way of deflecting truth
605. # [10:48] <othermaciej> it tends to be more effective at deflecting self-important indignation
606. # [10:48] <gDashiva> Sounds like SVG has a lot to be afraid of
607. # [10:48] <shepazu> FWIW, I'm already on public record saying that SVG needs some major cleanup... I know I've talked to Hixie and Maciej, among others about it
608. # [10:48] <othermaciej> truth holds up against mockery
609. # [10:49] <shepazu> othermaciej: nah, in the right audience, mockery suffices for anything
610. # [10:49] <hsivonen> shepazu: if the SVG WG is on the case, what's there to be threated or offended about?
611. # [10:50] <othermaciej> this channel's audience is probably not one of those
612. # [10:51] <shepazu> I never said I was offended... I just popped in to ask why you're so keen to make an incompatible version of SVG... you cited a reasonable concern about certain kinds of reuse, and that's something productive we can build on...
613. # [10:51] <othermaciej> hsivonen's comments really weren't about SVG
614. # [10:52] <othermaciej> they were about the W3C Document License and how it is problematic for free software projects
615. # [10:52] <shepazu> and to suggest that the best way of being productive is not to threaten others without first trying to work with them
616. # [10:52] <hsivonen> shepazu: first, the comment wasn't about SVG in particular but about a W3C spec foo and a more liberally licensed independent expression.
617. # [10:52] <shepazu> yep, that's a legitmate concern, imo
618. # [10:53] <othermaciej> (I think the W3C software license is similarly problematic and at least some specs claim it applies to the IDL interfaces they define)
619. # [10:54] <Hixie> SVG5, by my definition at least, can't be non-backwards-compatible
620. # [10:54] <Hixie> that would defeat the point
621. # [10:54] <hsivonen> shepazu: the second "oh yes" comment to the need of an SVG5 was about SVG. In particular, a version of SVG that treated full-stack browsers as its compatibility target. (not previous SVG specs or non-full-stack mobile implementations)
622. # [10:54] <othermaciej> Hixie: non-backwards-compatible with the spec, or with existing implementations/content?
623. # [10:54] <shepazu> all of this is a way, however flawed, of trying to prevent incompatible derivatives that damage the technology, which is a good goal... it's possible the way it's being done needs work
624. # [10:55] <Hixie> othermaciej: with Web content
625. # [10:56] * hsivonen leaves to get food
626. # [10:56] <othermaciej> if the W3C document license is intended to prevent incompatible derivatives, then it has not worked very well
627. # [10:56] <shepazu> society doesn't really have a good way of dealing with strange cases like this... it's more geared up, legally, to deal with physical products
628. # [10:56] <othermaciej> Exhibit A: Web browsers
629. # [10:57] <shepazu> othermaciej: but those aren't specs
630. # [10:57] <shepazu> anyway, back to work
631. # [10:57] <Hixie> the specs are somewhat empty of meaning if you discount their implementations as irrelevant...
632. # [10:58] <shepazu> that's neither what I said nor meant, but I guess that is irrelevant to you ;)
633. # [10:58] <othermaciej> an implementation is a spec, just an overconstrained one
634. # [10:58] <othermaciej> implementations are where the rubber hits the road
635. # [10:58] * Hixie prefers to look at it the other way around -- that a spec is an implementation, just one with weird users
636. # [10:59] <othermaciej> the important thing is for implementations to be interoperable, and it doesn't really matter if someone wrote down an incompatible spec
637. # [11:00] <takkaria> except to the extent is stops people being able to interoperate successfully
638. # [11:00] <takkaria> s/iss/it
639. # [11:01] <annevk> this URL thread is long
640. # [11:01] <shepazu> othermaciej: actually, it does... if different implementers code to different specs, it's pretty bad... the point of making a spec good enough that there aren't incompatibilities is a good one, but that doesn't negate the importance of a single point of reference
641. # [11:01] <shepazu> copyright is just another of those inadequate social mechanisms to try to create interop
642. # [11:01] <shepazu> oops
643. # [11:02] <shepazu> that is being used to try to create interop, that is
644. # [11:02] <othermaciej> it's not much consolation that there isn't a spec for the weird things IE6 does with CSS
645. # [11:02] <shepazu> yup
646. # [11:02] <othermaciej> in fact, the world might be a better place if there was
647. # [11:03] <jgraham__> This sounds a lot like the argument that open source is bad because people can fork it whereas in practice forks turn out to be rare and, when hty happen, beneficial
648. # [11:03] <othermaciej> so it would probably be better to allow making derivative works of the spec to document known implementation bugs
649. # [11:03] <shepazu> one would think that with some of the CSS editors being from MS, that would help
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651. # [11:03] <othermaciej> I don't think any of them want to make the CSS spec require IE6 behavior
652. # [11:04] <shepazu> othermaciej: only if there weren't multiple incompatible derivative specs
653. # [11:04] <othermaciej> I don't follow
654. # [11:04] <gDashiva> If someone wants to be incompatible, it's not like they need a competing spec as an excuse...
655. # [11:05] <shepazu> gDashiva: actually, that is often the case
656. # [11:05] <shepazu> it gives it credibility
657. # [11:05] <gDashiva> Credibility is something you add on later, it's not necessary
658. # [11:06] <othermaciej> if your goal is incompatibility as such, it's probably easier to achieve by not copying the spec text, so that there is more accidental incompatibility and so it's harder to tell what is different
659. # [11:07] <othermaciej> but if your goal was to, say, document implementation bugs for the benefit of authors, quoting the spec text to indicate differences would be useful
660. # [11:08] <Hixie> if your goal is being incompatible, simply doing a bad job at implementing the spec is far easier than anything else
661. # [11:08] <shepazu> sure... and I agree that W3C should move in that direction, to some degree
662. # [11:09] <shepazu> that is, documenting what's out there, and trying to make sure that there aren't incompatibilities in the first place by writing better specs
663. # [11:14] <annevk> why HTML5 will never fly: "It tries to reinvent the Web, if not the Internet."
664. # [11:14] <annevk> at which point I wonder, what Web?
665. # [11:14] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
666. # [11:15] <othermaciej> annevk: quote from somewhere?
667. # [11:16] <annevk> the URI mailing list
668. # [11:16] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2008Jun/
669. # [11:16] <annevk> specifically, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2008Jun/0052.html
670. # [11:16] <Hixie> that thread is quite something
671. # [11:16] <Hixie> a somewhat pure collision of the old guard and the whatwg ethos
672. # [11:20] <othermaciej> come on Hixie, you should have known that "URIs are specified in RFC 3986, not in RFC 3987."
673. # [11:20] <Hixie> it's not clear to me why he thinks i thought otherwise
674. # [11:20] <Hixie> but anyway
675. # [11:21] <Hixie> (87 is the iri spec)
676. # [11:21] <annevk> allowing links with a space, how dare you!
677. # [11:21] <Hixie> html5 doesn't allow links with space either :-P
678. # [11:21] <annevk> next you're telling me I'm confusing UA and author requirements :D
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680. # [11:22] <Hixie> :-P
681. # [11:28] <othermaciej> that's one heck of a long thread
682. # [11:54] <Hixie> time to sleep
683. # [11:54] <Hixie> nn
684. # [11:55] <annevk> g'n
685. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> http://sideshowbarker.net/2008/06/25/html5-uris/
686. # [12:03] <annevk> ah, I was planning on blogging about that too "Passing of the old Guard"
687. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> "Pissing off the old Guard"
688. # [12:05] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that seems to be the case :-(
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693. # [12:31] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM60-254-207-5.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
694. # [12:41] * annevk is confused by Charles Lindsey
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700. # [13:01] <hsivonen> I'm not sure it's worthwhile to allow xmlns talismans only on namespace boundaries.
701. # [13:01] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
702. # [13:02] <hsivonen> I guess this comes down to how much useless and harmless cruft passes as valid and to what extent validity captures some aesthetic notion of source neatness
703. # [13:08] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM60-254-207-5.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Excess Flood)
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706. # [13:12] <hsivonen> It's weird that the named character reference table is mostly lexicographically sorted but the trailing semicolon doesn't obey the sort.
707. # [13:12] <hsivonen> (probably too trivial to file a spec bug about)
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711. # [13:29] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
712. # [13:38] * Parts: gDashiva (n=noone@195.18.164.170)
713. # [13:42] * Joins: gDashiva (n=noone@195.18.164.170)
714. # [13:44] <hsivonen> aargh! I try to add the MathML entities and the compiler tells me that the static initializer then exceeds the 65535-byte limit
715. # [13:45] <annevk> not an argument to remove support for them! :p
716. # [13:57] <annevk> DNS has interop issues too: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=196852
717. # [13:57] <annevk> awesome
718. # [14:00] <hsivonen> wow
719. # [14:00] <annevk> on the Web, everything that can go wrong, will go wrong
720. # [14:01] <gDashiva> Especially when 'wrong' is some arbitrary behavior defined in a spec
721. # [14:03] <hsivonen> at least the MathML entities didn't break any html5lib test cases
722. # [14:03] <annevk> they're not part of html5lib yet
723. # [14:04] <hsivonen> annevk: I mean: there weren't any test cases that expected MathML entities not to expand
724. # [14:05] <annevk> ah
725. # [14:05] <takkaria> it should be possible to generate a test suite for HTML entities directly from the entities list in SVN
726. # [14:05] <takkaria> I was toying with the idea but wasn't sure it was worth it
727. # [14:22] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
728. # [14:26] <Philip`> A test suite for entities ought to check to every string that isn't a recognised entity does not get expanded
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731. # [14:28] <Philip`> (I suppose that might be infinitely too many, but at least it should test ones that are implemented in some cases in practice, like &pdf; and whatever)
732. # [14:28] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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734. # [14:32] <Philip`> Web browsers need error-handling for URLs in HTTP redirect responses, because lots of those have spaces or | characters - would that be covered by HTML5's specification of URL handling?
735. # [14:33] <annevk> in theory it's an HTTP issue :/
736. # [14:34] <Philip`> Who cares about theory? :-p
737. # [14:34] * Quits: gDashiva (n=noone@195.18.164.170) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
738. # [14:35] <takkaria> Philip`: practically, the only way you'll ever do that check for entities is with a test coverage tool and the source code for your implementation to hand
739. # [14:37] * Joins: gDashiva (n=noone@195.18.164.170)
740. # [14:39] <gsnedders> Philip`: That'll be defined in http-parsing
741. # [14:40] <gsnedders> Philip`: But yes, it'll likely be very similar to HTML 5, if not identical
742. # [14:40] * Philip` wouldn't care except that his dmoz.org-scraping program using HttpClient results in dozens of error messages due to invalid URIs-or-whatever-they're-called-today
743. # [14:40] <gsnedders> (I haven't had time to look at it yet)
744. # [14:41] <Philip`> <error type="io" uri="http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&amp;city=Hoffman&amp;state=MN&amp;slt=45.816101&amp;sln=-95.800598&amp;mlt=45.834900&amp;mln=-95.786700&amp;country=us&amp;mag=7&amp;cs=7&amp;newmag=8" message="Invalid redirect location: /map?q1=Hoffman MN us&amp;mag=7&amp;ard=1"/>
745. # [14:41] <hsivonen> I like it how they are called URLs in the new spec text
746. # [14:41] <Philip`> etc
747. # [14:43] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yeah, the stuff in http-parsing will be more or less identical
748. # [14:43] <gsnedders> I see ambiguity in what Hixie wrote, so I'll need to send mail about that
749. # [14:47] <annevk> hsivonen, me too
750. # [14:47] <annevk> +1
751. # [14:49] <hsivonen> Does Safari allow UTF-8 errors in feed parsing?
752. # [14:50] <Philip`> http://www.ppqu.com/
753. # [14:50] <Philip`> In the links panel at the bottom, middle column, fifth row, "舞蹈"
754. # [14:51] <Philip`> links to http://www.ppqu.com/search.php?search_input=%%CE%E8%B5%B8
755. # [14:51] <Philip`> which gives "Not Acceptable: An appropriate representation of the requested resource /search.php could not be found on this server. Microsoft-IIS/6.0 Server at www.ppqu.com Port 80"
756. # [14:52] <Philip`> but it seems to give that in every browser (IE6/Firefox/Opera) so I guess it's not an interoperability problem
757. # [14:52] <hsivonen> Philip`: which reminds me: wasn't there sume non-standard UTF-16-based query string escaping scheme?
758. # [14:53] <hsivonen> s/sume/some/
759. # [14:55] <Philip`> hsivonen: %uXXXX
760. # [14:56] <hsivonen> Philip`: looks like Hixie hasn't specced that yet
761. # [14:57] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://10.pro.tok2.com/%7ehonetsugi408/ used to link to http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=yp.%u3057%u304a%u3084%u6574%u9aa8%u9662~yp.%u3057%u304a%u3084%u63a5%u9aa8%u30fb%u6574%u9aa8%u9662&cp=35.790005~139.439234&style=r&lvl=18&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000
762. # [14:58] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
763. # [14:58] <Philip`> which doesn't work if you rewrite it like http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=yp.%25u3057%25u304a%25u3084%25u6574%25u9aa8%25u9662~yp.%25u3057%25u304a%25u3084%25u63a5%25u9aa8%25u30fb%25u6574%25u9aa8%25u9662&cp=35.790005~139.439234&style=r&lvl=18&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000
764. # [14:59] <hsivonen> Philip`: have you found other instances?
765. # [15:02] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
766. # [15:04] <Philip`> http://www.chnrailway.com
767. # [15:04] <Philip`> <a href="/Product/Product_listS.aspx?keywords=%u6A21%u677F" target="_blank">Ä£°å</a>
768. # [15:04] <Philip`> but it looks like they've changed their site now
769. # [15:07] <Philip`> hsivonen: Those two are the only ones matching (?i)href=\S*%u
770. # [15:07] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok. thanks
771. # [15:08] <hsivonen> I trust that Hixie can check Google's cache to see if %uXXXX matters
772. # [15:09] <Philip`> There might be others in other attributes but I didn't check for those
773. # [15:10] * Philip` still really needs to write some code so he can search attribute values nicely and quickly
774. # [15:18] <Lachy> oh wow, rob's responses are becoming less coherent all the time. http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5772#c12 - I'm definitely not responding to that.
775. # [15:20] * Joins: qwert666 (n=qwert666@ett207.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
776. # [15:21] <gDashiva> You're implying they are coherent? :)
777. # [15:21] <annevk> I'm glad we have bugzilla
778. # [15:21] <jcranmer> "I want to strengthen uniqueness by changing the scope of uniqueness"
779. # [15:22] <annevk> and that I'm not on it :)
780. # [15:23] <jcranmer> that to me implies "I'm going to make everyone pass by simply defining failure to be this specific score"
781. # [15:24] * Joins: jgraham_ (n=jgraham@xpc9.ast.cam.ac.uk)
782. # [15:25] <gDashiva> All ids are unique, but some are more unique than others.
783. # [15:27] <Lachy> I didn't imply they were ever coherent, just that it's possible to go from incoherrent to even more incoherrent.
784. # [15:28] <jcranmer> o_O I'm reading his last comment and it makes less and less sense
785. # [15:28] <jcranmer> this is the gist of it: "unique IDs are a problem, so we should allow non-unique IDs and then pretend they're unique"
786. # [15:28] <takkaria> he's doing a PhD in something related to politics, economics and Marx, he spends a lot of time arguing things which don't make sense
787. # [15:29] <gDashiva> jcranmer: You left out the part about xml:ID being perfect and awesome
788. # [15:29] <jgraham_> hsivonen: Re: testcases, I'm +1 on your idea but I would just use the full strings math and svg unless there is some good reason not to
789. # [15:29] * Philip` sees http://camendesign.com/ using HTML5 elements
790. # [15:29] <jcranmer> gDashiva: ah, yes I did
791. # [15:29] <hsivonen> jgraham_: like <svg foreignContent>?
792. # [15:30] <jgraham_> yeah
793. # [15:30] <hsivonen> jgraham_: ok. makes sense
794. # [15:30] <annevk> wfm too
795. # [15:31] * jcranmer recommends RESO THISBUGISACONTRADICTION
796. # [15:31] <hsivonen> takkaria: are you suggesting that Marxist economics don't make sense?
797. # [15:32] <jcranmer> takkaria: that should explain it; politicians try to take every side of the issue
798. # [15:32] <takkaria> hsivonen: I merely suggest that maybe they're not very practical and somewhat idealistic :)
799. # [15:33] <Lachy> oh, look, now he's proposing an attribute with my name: "That could be “<element lachy='value'>” It is up to the document specification to determine where an element ID comes from."
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801. # [15:35] <annevk> it's tempting to reply to RB, but pointless
802. # [15:35] <jgraham_> Philip`: I note that person complains about <figure><legend>
803. # [15:35] <Lachy> annevk, I know it's tempting. I've failed to resist temptation before. But a really big waste of time.
804. # [15:35] <jgraham_> and also seems to misuse <header>
805. # [15:37] <Philip`> Lachy: Removing oneself from the CC list is quite effective
806. # [15:37] <gDashiva> (unless you're also on the mailing list)
807. # [15:37] <annevk> not having a W3C Bugzilla account is too
808. # [15:37] <Philip`> (Then unsubscribe from the mailing list :-p )
809. # [15:38] <Philip`> (and when the new-bug-notification message is sent to public-html, CC yourself if you think it's going to be a worthwhile bug, instead of defaulting to following everything)
810. # [15:38] <Lachy> Philip`, I'm subscribed to public-html-bugzilla, and I'm not on the CC list.
811. # [15:38] <Lachy> Philip`, I'm too lazy for that.
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813. # [15:39] <Philip`> Lachy: Then unsubscribe to public-html-bugzilla, and don't CC yourself ever
814. # [15:39] <Philip`> That's the best solution for lazy people :-)
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817. # [15:43] <Lachy> Philip`, I need a solution that lets me keep track of everything that goes on
818. # [15:43] <Philip`> Lachy: That is incompatible with laziness
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820. # [15:45] * aaronlev_ is now known as aaronlev
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822. # [15:48] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
823. # [15:56] <takkaria> Philip`: not if you redefine laziness such that it includes not being lazy
824. # [15:57] <Philip`> takkaria: That kind of redefinition would take too much effort
825. # [15:57] <takkaria> not under my definition :)
826. # [16:00] <takkaria> parody of RB is far too easy...
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828. # [16:11] <Lachy> the XHTML2 WG are having another telcon. Apparently they didn't like the HTMLWG's response to there issue.
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830. # [16:12] <Lachy> but they will discuss it more over email and then follow up in next week's telcon.
831. # [16:13] <Lachy> s/there issue/their issue/
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833. # [16:27] <gsnedders> telecons ftl
834. # [16:29] <Philip`> They appear to result in all actions and decisions taking a positive integer number of weeks, which seems bad if the group is active enough to work faster than that
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836. # [16:30] <gsnedders> Philip`: like a negative integer number of weeks?
837. # [16:30] <Lachy> gsnedders, yes. Everything should be finished last week.
838. # [16:30] <Philip`> Like a non-integer number of weeks :-p
839. # [16:31] <Philip`> or a non-positive non-negative integer
840. # [16:31] <Lachy> the only non-positive, non-negative integer is 0
841. # [16:31] <Philip`> Indeed
842. # [16:32] <gsnedders> so it should be done NOW?
843. # [16:32] <Philip`> Not everything, but some things should be
844. # [16:33] <Philip`> particularly when it takes less time to just do it than it would take to add it to an agenda to agree next week to do it
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846. # [16:35] <Philip`> Hmm, I've forgotten what I was talking about now
847. # [16:35] <Philip`> Oh well
848. # [16:37] * gsnedders passes Philip` some ROM for next time
849. # [16:38] <zcorpan> Philip`: we should discuss what you were talking about at the next telecon
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862. # [17:39] * takkaria reads the examples in the html5 spec for a laugh
863. # [17:41] <Philip`> There are some fairly obscure references in some of them
864. # [17:42] <mpt> In 100 years the HTML 5 spec will be the only remaining trace of Stargate SG-1
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868. # [17:45] <mpt> (well, maybe 300 years)
869. # [17:46] * gsnedders laughs at one example which is obviously Hixie talking about himself
870. # [17:53] <Philip`> Hixie: "<li value="8"><cite>A Bugs Life</cite>, 1998</li>" should say "A Bug's Life"
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874. # [18:02] <mrbkap> Hixie: http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/comments/004.html should show the text b-->c with your algorithm, right?
875. # [18:03] <Philip`> mrbkap: HTML5 says it should be http://james.html5.org/cgi-bin/parsetree/parsetree.py?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hixie.ch%2Ftests%2Fadhoc%2Fhtml%2Fparsing%2Fcomments%2F004.html
876. # [18:05] <mrbkap> Ah, I was wondering if something like that existed.
877. # [18:05] <mrbkap> Cool, thanks.
878. # [18:06] <Philip`> (Also see http://parsetree.validator.nu/ for an independent implementation that hopefully gives the same results)
879. # [18:07] <mrbkap> I think I just implemented the comment parsing in Gecko.
880. # [18:08] <Philip`> It'd be good to know if HTML5's comment parsing algorithm doesn't break the web :-)
881. # [18:09] <mrbkap> Heh, I'm sort of worried about that!
882. # [18:09] <jgraham_> I should update the html5lib on james.html5.org
883. # [18:09] <jgraham_> Although I don't think it's all that old
884. # [18:10] <smedero> it be nice if your tool had a little html5lib version # text in the footer...
885. # [18:11] <jgraham_> Should be up to date now (although validator.nu is closer to the current state of the spec)
886. # [18:11] <jgraham_> smedero: Yeah, I guess it could show the svn rev or something
887. # [18:13] * jgraham_ will investigate that this evening
888. # [18:13] <smedero> cool, thanks!
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1010. # [19:14] <Philip`> jcranmer: so it seems like scheduled maintenance, and presumably it's not scheduled frequently
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1012. # [19:15] <jcranmer> Philip`: scheduled mainteance seems to happen frequently, though
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1132. # [20:07] <KevinMarks> I'm trying to get an overview of datatemplate, rule, nest etc. Has anyone written this up with examples of use, rather than the pseudocode in the spec?
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1134. # [20:08] <mrbkap> Is there any sort of test suite for comments?
1135. # [20:08] <smedero> KevinMarks: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0119.html
1136. # [20:08] <smedero> and also Ian's follow up: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0121.html
1137. # [20:08] <smedero> might be helpful to you
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1139. # [20:10] <Philip`> mrbkap: html5lib has lots of test cases - http://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/testdata/tokenizer/ and http://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/testdata/tree-construction/
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1141. # [20:10] <Philip`> mrbkap: Someone set up something to run those tests in a web browser directly, which might be helpful if I could find it
1142. # [20:12] <Philip`> mrbkap: http://html5.org/parsing-tests/testrunner.htm though I'm not sure how recent that copy of the test cases is and I'm not sure how many comment-related tests it includes
1143. # [20:13] <mrbkap> If it includes test2, that'll work.
1144. # [20:13] <mrbkap> Thanks.
1145. # [20:14] <KevinMarks> thanks smedero
1146. # [20:14] <KevinMarks> the context is the OpenSocial template discussion, and FBML
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1148. # [20:17] <Philip`> KevinMarks: It doesn't seem likely that the datatemplate stuff will stay in HTML5, given Hixie's comments, so it should probably considered as just another nonstandard templating proposal and not as a soon-to-be-natively-implemented browser feature
1149. # [20:18] <Philip`> (It's also somewhat incomplete, e.g. it doesn't define any way of inserting data values into the templated output)
1150. # [20:36] <KevinMarks> it looks much less complete than the opensocial proposal
1151. # [20:36] <KevinMarks> http://groups.google.com/group/opensocial-and-gadgets-spec/web/opensocial-templates
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1153. # [20:44] <Philip`> KevinMarks: datatemplate lets you modify the data via the DOM and the template will automatically update to show the new data (while trying to not lose values users typed into form elements) - it looks like the OpenSocial proposal doesn't do that at all, and is just a one-time convert-some-data-into-some-HTML process
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1162. # [22:23] <mitsuhiko> html5lib still doesn't work with lxml2 :(
1163. # [22:31] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.105.130)
1164. # [22:31] <jgraham__> mitsuhiko: ? WFM...
1165. # [22:31] <jgraham__> Although there might be some corner case issues on the lxml side
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1167. # [22:32] <mitsuhiko> jgraham_ValueError: Invalid tag name u'<DOCUMENT_ROOT>'
1168. # [22:32] <mitsuhiko> that's latest html5lib trunk and lxml2.1beta3
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1170. # [22:34] <jgraham__> mitsuhiko: That's very surprising; I thought that wasn't possible with the latest html5lib trunk
1171. # [22:34] * jgraham__ goes to look
1172. # [22:34] <mitsuhiko> i could swear it worked some time ago
1173. # [22:37] <jgraham__> Oh, maybe you're trying to use the etree TreeBuilder with lxml, which won't work anymore; you need to do getTreeBuilder("lxml") instead
1174. # [22:38] <jgraham__> (I had to fork the two cases as lxml has some important differences from standard ElementTree but I should try porting the ElementTree code to the lxml way)
1175. # [22:38] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
1176. # [22:40] <Hixie> hm, it seems the URI spec defines "URL" already
1177. # [22:40] <Hixie> maybe we should use the word "address"?
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1181. # [22:56] <Philip`> Hixie: That would make the <address> element very confusing
1182. # [22:56] <Hixie> yes
1183. # [22:56] <Hixie> but then again
1184. # [22:56] <Hixie> would it make it _more_ confusing? :-)
1185. # [22:58] <Philip`> It seems generally worthwhile to avoid overloading terminology, and "address" is already overloaded enough that it'd be harmful to rely on it as a technical term with a very specific meaning that readers are somehow expected to understand
1186. # [22:58] <Dashiva> What about location?
1187. # [22:58] <Dashiva> It matches with the location object :)
1188. # [22:59] * Hixie just wontfixed a request to change the doctype syntax to help xslt users
1189. # [22:59] <Philip`> "URL" doesn't have that problem because nobody reads RFCs and everybody already knows that URLs are just the things like http://blah that you type into web browsers
1190. # [22:59] <Hixie> "URL" has so far confused one person
1191. # [22:59] <Philip`> which is a sufficiently specific meaning for most purposes
1192. # [23:00] <Philip`> That's a whole six billion people it hasn't confused yet - I think the one is outnumbered
1193. # [23:00] <Dashiva> What about... XRX
1194. # [23:00] <Hixie> well the six billion people haven't read the spec :-)
1195. # [23:00] <Hixie> Dashiva: dude. you invented a new term AND used two "x"s in it. disqualified! :-P
1196. # [23:01] <Hixie> w is the new x
1197. # [23:01] <Dashiva> [UI]R[IL]
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1199. # [23:01] <Hixie> lord
1200. # [23:01] <Hixie> ok i'll stick to URL until someone comes up with something actually better
1201. # [23:01] <Dashiva> :(
1202. # [23:02] <Dashiva> Okay, last shot. EARL.
1203. # [23:02] <Hixie> something else that's confusing
1204. # [23:02] <Hixie> is that the spec uses the term "URL" when it talks about things that take URIs
1205. # [23:02] <Hixie> and uses the term data: URI when talking about the output of the method toDataURL
1206. # [23:03] <Hixie> maybe i should call them data: URL
1207. # [23:03] <Hixie> which would be ironic since while it's what the data: URL spec calls them, they're not actually URLs in the sense of the term as defined by 3986
1208. # [23:03] <Dashiva> As I understand it, IRI is just a way to map fancy letters into URIs, but how does URLs figure into it?
1209. # [23:04] <Hixie> the uri spec defines uri space as being further subset into url and urn sapce
1210. # [23:04] <Hixie> space
1211. # [23:04] * Hixie calls them data: URLs and moves on
1212. # [23:04] <Philip`> Who chose the name "toDataURL"?
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1214. # [23:05] <Dashiva> Does anyone care about URNs in practice?
1215. # [23:05] <Hixie> Philip`: me
1216. # [23:05] <Dashiva> As in, can we just assume URL = URI?
1217. # [23:05] <Hixie> Dashiva: lots of people living in ivory towers do :-D
1218. # [23:05] <Dashiva> That was badly formulated.
1219. # [23:05] <Dashiva> I meant, will we ever encounter URIs that aren't URLs in real life?
1220. # [23:06] * Lachy__ is now known as Lachy
1221. # [23:06] <Philip`> <html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
1222. # [23:06] <Dashiva> namespaces are just opaque strings (to me)
1223. # [23:07] <Lachy> hmm. I don't like bug 5801 for adding xmlns to all elements.
1224. # [23:09] <Hixie> me either
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1226. # [23:14] <Philip`> ('HTML URL' = HURL gives the right connotations)
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1228. # [23:15] <Dashiva> what-url
1229. # [23:15] <Philip`> Dashiva: Hmm, I can't find anything that looks like a URN like \s(?!xmlns)\S+="urn:(?!schemas-microsoft-com)
1230. # [23:16] <Philip`> (except for example code in http://www.mozilla.org/docs/xul/xulnotes/template-primer.html which isn't what I was intending to look for)
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1232. # [23:17] <Dashiva> So there's no practical difference between uri and url on the web
1233. # [23:19] <Philip`> s/the web/a tiny subset of the web/
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1235. # [23:21] <Hixie> like i said
1236. # [23:21] <Hixie> ivory towers
1237. # [23:25] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
1238. # [23:25] * Quits: aruner (n=arun@adsl-75-36-186-239.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
1239. # [23:28] * Quits: svl (n=me@60.234.159.114) (Dead socket)
1240. # [23:29] * Quits: starjive (i=beos@213-66-217-32-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
1241. # [23:30] * Joins: kingryan (n=ryan@c-24-5-77-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
1242. # [23:44] <jcranmer> Hixie++ for his latest CVS comment
1243. # [23:47] <Hixie> someone should let www-html know that html5 defines innerHTML
1244. # [23:48] <Lachy> oh, geez. www-html has had a lot of traffic in the last day.
1245. # [23:50] <Lachy> grr, I hate my ISP. Experiencing crappy, intermittent connection problems and tech support didn't even respond to my email :-(
1246. # [23:50] <Hixie> we were having huge issues with comcast the other day
1247. # [23:50] <Hixie> it just dropped off at 2am
1248. # [23:51] <gsnedders> Hixie: This is why you sleep overnight :P
1249. # [23:51] <Lachy> that's not surprising. I don't think I've ever read anything positive about comcase.
1250. # [23:51] <Lachy> *comcast
1251. # [23:51] <jcranmer> Hixie: probably in revenge for closing the bar on the people there
1252. # [23:51] <Hixie> for various reasons we were testing the network with my ipod
1253. # [23:51] <Hixie> and when the guy on the other end told my girlfriend "i'm sorry we don't support ipods" i just yanked the phone and went balistic on them
1254. # [23:52] <Hixie> nobody blames my fucking IPOD for their screwup.
1255. # [23:52] * jcranmer imagines Hixie going ballistic
1256. # [23:52] <Hixie> told them that either they sent a tech guy to fix it before the end of the weekend, or we canceled the account
1257. # [23:52] <gsnedders> s/ipod/iPod/ig
1258. # [23:52] * gsnedders runs and hides
1259. # [23:53] <Hixie> the connection magically started working again ten minutes after we hung up
1260. # [23:53] <Hixie> (it was a 1h10 minute phone call)
1261. # [23:53] <jcranmer> gsnedders: you're forgetting the trademark!
1262. # [23:53] <gsnedders> BT isn't much more fun to deal with
1263. # [23:54] <jcranmer> Verizon's pretty good... until they've decided to drop 90% of Usenet because a few newsgroups have child pr0n on them...
1264. # [23:54] <gsnedders> They were constantly saying, "Call the third party router's helpline! It isn't our fault! The fact that two routers exhibit the same issue with not connecting isn't our fault!"
1265. # [23:54] * gsnedders sends jcranmer a naked pic
1266. # [23:54] * gsnedders waits for IRC to blocked on Verizon
1267. # [23:54] <jcranmer> ha-ha, I'm not connected from my home computer
1268. # [23:55] <gsnedders> (and no, ladies and gentlemen, I didn't actually)
1269. # [23:55] <jcranmer> besides, I keep my address nice and private
1270. # [23:56] <jcranmer> only people with access to my school's Intranet know it...
1271. # [23:56] <jcranmer> ... and most anywhere I post on Usenet :-)
1272. # [23:56] <mitsuhiko> jgraham_: indeed. that works
1273. # [23:56] <mitsuhiko> thanks a lot!
1274. # [23:57] <mitsuhiko> html5lib * lxml == awesome stuff
1275. # [23:57] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
1276. # Session Close: Thu Jun 26 00:00:00 2008

The end :)