/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-07-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 02 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:11] * Philip` wonders if switching from Xerces-C to libxml2 is sane
  9. # [00:11] <Dashiva> It's got x and 2, how can it not be?
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  11. # [00:13] <Philip`> But Xerces reminds me of Persian kings, which has to count for something
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  29. # [02:15] <jacobolus> annevk: is it well known that «context».translate, «context».scale, and «context».rotate() work exactly the opposite in Opera as they do in Gecko and Webkit?
  30. # [02:15] <jacobolus> (these are canvas operations)
  31. # [02:18] <annevk> I'm not sure. I'd suggest to file a bug at https://bugs.opera.com/wizard/
  32. # [02:18] <annevk> I'm in a meeting atm
  33. # [02:18] <annevk> (and sleepy)
  34. # [02:18] <jacobolus> no worries
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  36. # [02:22] <jacobolus> Hixie: I found a whatwg mailing list post of yours which states that opera's behavior is per the spec, and gecko/webkit are doing it wrong. But it seems to me like it could go either way. Why did the spec pick Opera’s way, if it in fact did?
  37. # [02:22] <jacobolus> The way Gecko/Webkit work is that transforms affect the origin/direction/scale of the "pen" which will draw a line, but then once something is drawn, it stays put, so the way to do transformations is to apply them *before* drawing.
  38. # [02:22] <jacobolus> In Opera (and perhaps in the spec?) transformations instead affect whatever path has already been drawn, so transformations must come *after* making a path but before stroking/filling it
  39. # [02:23] <Hixie> you mean for the path construction stuff?
  40. # [02:23] <jacobolus> Either way, it means that if such transformations are to be used, they can either target webkit/gecko, or opera, but not both
  41. # [02:23] <Hixie> i believe the spec changed and opera is now wrong
  42. # [02:23] <jacobolus> ah, oky
  43. # [02:23] <jacobolus> so that mailing list message that came up in a google search is just out of date then )
  44. # [02:23] <jacobolus> :) rather
  45. # [02:24] <jacobolus> well, have some shapes: http://www.orbited.org/wiki/CanvasShapes
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  47. # [02:25] <jacobolus> Hixie: I was drawing polygons, etc. by repeatedly applying «context».rotate(«angle»); «context».moveTo(0,1)
  48. # [02:25] <Hixie> yeah, that's not longer gonna work per spec iirc
  49. # [02:25] <Hixie> no
  50. # [02:25] <jacobolus> and in opera it of course doesn’t work that way :)
  51. # [02:25] <Hixie> i expect browsers will get fixed in due course
  52. # [02:26] <jacobolus> so that is not going to be an acceptable way to draw per the spec?
  53. # [02:26] <jacobolus> because it is very convenient
  54. # [02:26] <jacobolus> and makes for quite readable code
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  57. # [02:28] <Hixie> to be honest i don't recall where the spec ended up
  58. # [02:28] <Hixie> Philip` probably knows
  59. # [02:28] <Hixie> if he's around
  60. # [02:29] <jacobolus> the spec doesn't really make it clear, IMO
  61. # [02:29] <jacobolus> it just says “The transformation matrix is applied to coordinates when creating shapes and paths.”
  62. # [02:30] <Hixie> yeah
  63. # [02:30] <Hixie> i'd look in more detail but i'm in a meeting right now
  64. # [02:30] <Hixie> sorry :-)
  65. # [02:30] <jacobolus> no worries. not urgent :)
  66. # [02:31] <Hixie> try pinging me again in coming days (or ask Philip`!) and i'll do a better job of answering you :-)
  67. # [02:31] <jacobolus> cool. Philip`: if you know, feel free to chime in. :)
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  69. # [02:33] <annevk> he's in Europe, so might be sleeping
  70. # [02:33] <jacobolus> okay, I'll try back later, or in a few days, or something :)
  71. # [02:33] <Hixie> :-)
  72. # [02:34] <jacobolus> or maybe even make a mailing list post, if I feel ambitious :)
  73. # [02:34] <annevk> I'm suggesting you try a different time :)
  74. # [02:34] <annevk> (mailing list would probably work better)
  75. # [02:34] <Hixie> e-mail would be fine, yes
  76. # [02:34] <Hixie> send it to help@
  77. # [02:34] <Hixie> rather than whatwg@
  78. # [02:34] <Hixie> unless you want to start a thread about changing it again :-)
  79. # [02:35] <csarven> Should <object> be only used for non-native data types?
  80. # [02:35] <csarven> I just want to get this <object> out of my system because of a few microformats issues :)
  81. # [02:35] <jacobolus> Hixie: I don’t think the spec makes it clear what the proper behavior is currently. so it probably should be made more explicit
  82. # [02:35] <csarven> annevk helped quite a bit but I just wanted to wrap it up.
  83. # [02:35] <Hixie> ah, well, then send mail to whatwg@ asking for it to be cleared up :-)
  84. # [02:36] <Hixie> it probably needs an example or something
  85. # [02:36] <jacobolus> yep. I agree. I'll maybe write up a blog post about how the two models currently work.
  86. # [02:36] <jacobolus> with some pretty pictures, etc.
  87. # [02:37] <annevk> csarven, using <object> for HTML, images, etc. is fine
  88. # [02:38] <csarven> "fine" ?
  89. # [02:39] <annevk> in general it's not needed, but it's not forbidden
  90. # [02:39] <csarven> Reading the 4.01 spec it mentions the opposite that, the intention is to handle data types that are not native to the UA
  91. # [02:39] <jacobolus> the mozilla canvas tutorial has some transformations applied before drawing whole shapes, but it doesn't seem to have considered applying transformations in the middle of drawing a path
  92. # [02:39] <csarven> But I find it slightly ambigious
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  94. # [02:40] <csarven> annevk It is true that it doesn't say it must/should not be used that way but it doesn't mean it may be.
  95. # [02:40] <mcarter> hello
  96. # [02:40] <mcarter> Hixie, yt?
  97. # [02:41] <Hixie> yo
  98. # [02:42] <csarven> "Most user agents have built-in mechanisms for rendering common data types such as text, GIF images, colors, fonts, and a handful of graphic elements. To render data types they don't support natively, user agents generally run external applications. The OBJECT element allows authors to control whether data should be rendered externally or by some program, specified by the author, that renders the data within the user agent." http
  99. # [02:42] <mcarter> Hixie, i'm on a different machine -- I don't suppose you have that link handy with the notes you made?
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  101. # [02:43] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/notes
  102. # [02:43] <Hixie> i started speccing it, you can see what i have so far here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#network
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  104. # [02:45] <csarven> annevk Also, when you say "not forbidden", what purpose would it then serve if it is used for native data types?
  105. # [02:46] <annevk> dunno, embedding data with rich data
  106. # [02:46] <annevk> rich fallback data, oops
  107. # [02:47] <csarven> I'm not sure if I understand that. Got an example?
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  109. # [02:48] <Hixie> mcarter: (see above, in case you missed my comments)
  110. # [02:51] <csarven> The 4.01 spec only mentions that it is intended for non-native data types. Is there anything that suggests that it *may* be used for native data types other then the fact that it doesn't say it *should not* or *must not* be used for native data types?
  111. # [02:52] <mcarter> Hixie, I think the WebSocketReadEvent interface should have a type or dataType attribute, for when we can receive binary data as well as text
  112. # [02:53] <Hixie> i was thinking of have ontext instead of onread
  113. # [02:53] <Hixie> of having
  114. # [02:53] <annevk> we should just add .blob to it when that happens
  115. # [02:53] <annevk> well, maybe
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  117. # [02:55] <mcarter> I prefer onread with evt.datatype to ontext and onblob (or whatever we would call it), but i'm not sure why i prefer it
  118. # [02:55] <Hixie> well for now there's only text anyway
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  120. # [02:55] <annevk> why'd you need datatype? you probably know what you're going to communicate in
  121. # [02:55] <annevk> and if not you can check which of the two is empty and use the other
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  123. # [02:56] <Hixie> annevk: when we add binary data you'd get a mixture
  124. # [02:56] <jacobolus> mcarter: maybe because it would preserve order?
  125. # [02:56] <annevk> isn't it decided by the handshake which one is going to be filled?
  126. # [02:56] <mcarter> jacobolus, I was thinking that, but it doesn't matter either way
  127. # [02:56] <annevk> seems a bit weird to have strangely decoded UTF-8 when you transmit "binary"
  128. # [02:56] <kangax> Is this the right place to ask about canvas?
  129. # [02:57] <jacobolus> kangax: you can ask me anyway. i just spent a day trying to figure it out :)
  130. # [02:58] <kangax> jacobolus: I can't find a native way to output text
  131. # [02:58] <jacobolus> kangax: yeah, that only works in some browsers (firefox 3 maybe?)
  132. # [02:58] <kangax> damn
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  134. # [02:59] <jacobolus> kangax: the way people do it is to make other html elements and layer them over the top of the canvas :)
  135. # [02:59] <annevk> next generation of Web browsers likely :/
  136. # [02:59] <annevk> or create small images for letters
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  138. # [02:59] <jacobolus> kangax: but obviously that's not a great solution
  139. # [02:59] <kangax> I am looking at cvi_text_lib which simulates text output
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  141. # [02:59] <Hixie> bbl
  142. # [03:00] <Hixie> spec is work in progress
  143. # [03:00] <kangax> it's pretty slow when rotating/moving the text
  144. # [03:00] <Hixie> but feel free to give comments here
  145. # [03:00] <Hixie> later
  146. # [03:00] <jacobolus> kangax: SVG does text ;)
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  148. # [03:00] <kangax> Is it supported by A-grade browsers?
  149. # [03:00] <kangax> (svg)
  150. # [03:01] <jacobolus> what's A-grade? :)
  151. # [03:01] <jacobolus> it's supported by recent gecko/webkit/opera
  152. # [03:01] <kangax> FF2+, IE6+, S2+, O9+
  153. # [03:01] <jacobolus> and by a plugin from adobe
  154. # [03:01] <roc> Firefox trunk supports the HTML5 text APIs for canvas
  155. # [03:02] <mcarter> kangax, IE6 gets a C- in my book...
  156. # [03:02] <jacobolus> kangax: there's no drawing api with text supported by all of those, no
  157. # [03:02] <kangax> roc: interesting... I wish I could afford supporting FF only
  158. # [03:02] <roc> so you can play with that and your code should work in the next version of Firefox and the other good browsers
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  160. # [03:03] <kangax> I'm just trying to figure out if it's best to go with flash or of I can actually make JS do what I need
  161. # [03:03] <jacobolus> kangax: what do you need?
  162. # [03:03] <roc> if you need it to work in IE then you should probably go with Flash :-(
  163. # [03:04] <kangax> text (rotatiion/moving/letter-by-letter coloring), user images (moving/rotation/resizing)
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  223. # [10:32] <jacobolus> Hixie: ah, according to http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-June/015058.html you’ve got it figured out now, and the Opera behavior is wrong, while Webkit/Gecko are correct. So then the only suggestion I have is that an example is needed, and the spec needs to be more explicit
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  230. # [10:40] <Windstoss> Provided, you define a opportunistic caching namespace that matches all URLs of an "GET-only" Website. You don't assign any URLs to this namespace. Now, a user browses this Website. When he goes offline for some reason and revisits the website, would he be able to browse all sites he browsed when he was online?
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  239. # [10:58] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't understand your "unproductive" comment on the dictator blog post
  240. # [11:05] * gDashiva assumes it relates to "The W3C process has evolved to reduce the central role of the Director."
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  242. # [11:05] <gDashiva> (and the rest of that paragraph)
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  264. # [11:49] <Windstoss> Alright, I think I got the bit about fallback entries wrong :(
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  276. # [12:56] <zcorpan> hmm, why is http://www.pumpkinpirate.info/ks/test.html getting black edges in opera
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  282. # [13:34] <Philip`> jacobolus: If you tell the canvas to transform then draw path then fill, it'll work exactly the same in all implementations, so you can write code that always works - it only differs if you transform after drawing the path
  283. # [13:35] <Philip`> jacobolus: rotate/moveTo/rotate/moveTo should work according to the spec (and Firefox and WebKit and Konqueror - see http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/results.html#2d.path.transformation.basic )
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  285. # [13:35] <Philip`> jacobolus: The spec says "The points and lines added to the path by these methods must be transformed according to the current transformation matrix as they are added." which seems clear enough to me
  286. # [13:35] <Philip`> (Someone poke me if he joins this channel so I can point him at the log :-) )
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  296. # [14:24] <zcorpan> Philip`: is http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/2d.strokeRect.zero.4.html correct?
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  305. # [15:04] <Philip`> zcorpan: Yes (I think) - zero-height strokeRect draws a horizontal line (not a rect), so there's no vertical lines that should be drawn onto the visible canvas region; and strokeRect draws a closed shaped, so it doesn't have any line-caps (only line-joins), so those shouldn't draw anything visible onto the canvas
  306. # [15:05] <Philip`> (That particular case comes from when I was going through a stupid phase of unnecessarily using transparent-canvas-on-green-background to indicate success instead of solid-green-canvas - I ought to fix all those at some point in the future)
  307. # [15:05] <zcorpan> Philip`: ok... thanks
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  317. # [16:34] <Philip`> zcorpan: On 2d.path.arc.shape.5 try making the canvas much larger and the lineWidth much narrower, and then you'll see how weird Opera is :-)
  318. # [16:35] <Philip`> I think I saw someone do arc(x, y, r, 0, 360, false), which triggered that bug (because 360 = lots of radians)
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  320. # [16:39] <zcorpan> Philip`: whey, that's pretty weird indeed
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  328. # [17:26] <zcorpan> hmm it's easy to make firefox hang by doing an arc() with a very high number for the radius argument
  329. # [17:28] <hsivonen> the CAPTCHA thing makes one go "hmm": http://www.webvisum.com/
  330. # [17:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan: icon.png deployed on validator.nu. the usual front page caching issues apply.
  331. # [17:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thank you
  332. # [17:31] <hsivonen> hendry: see above. validator.nu now has a favicon
  333. # [17:33] <zcorpan> hsivonen: cool
  334. # [17:34] <zcorpan> the V is a bit blurry but i guess it's ok
  335. # [17:35] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I deployed your file bit-for-bit :-)
  336. # [17:35] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yeah i know :)
  337. # [17:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: i argue that a benevolent dictator is needed for good work to result, and point to tim as an example of the w3c having a benevolent dictator. but the w3c has been doing poor work in recent years, which would be explained by tim no longer being dictator as per that post.
  338. # [17:43] * hsivonen learns the term syntactic vinegar from tantek's namespaces considered harmful wiki article
  339. # [17:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: it seems though, that actually using the term "benevolent dictator" is a PR problem when your audience hasn't been socialized to know Python terminology
  340. # [17:44] <hsivonen> (both for the W3C and the WHATWG)
  341. # [17:44] <Hixie> python has a benevolent dictator?
  342. # [17:44] <Hixie> cool
  343. # [17:44] <Hixie> i guess i knew that
  344. # [17:45] <Hixie> that certainly isn't where i first heard the term
  345. # [17:45] <hsivonen> for life even
  346. # [17:45] <Hixie> but yes, most big projects have one
  347. # [17:45] <Hixie> linux, perl, python
  348. # [17:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: having one and using the term without PR issues are two different things
  349. # [17:46] <Hixie> *shrug*
  350. # [17:46] <Hixie> the term is accurate
  351. # [17:46] <Hixie> i'm not big into doublespeak
  352. # [17:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't follow Linux development, but I'd expect certain vendors to be able to override Linus if Linus wanted bad things
  353. # [17:47] <Hixie> no more so than in python, as far as i can tell
  354. # [17:48] <Philip`> I would guess that far more vendors ship the Linux kernel with significant patches than for Python
  355. # [17:48] <hsivonen> the PR issue is that people who aren't familiar with the concept think that the dictator can dictate anything (one person's opinion) when really the dictator can only dictate things that implementors allow the dictator to resolve
  356. # [17:49] <Philip`> so they have ultimate control over what their users run
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  358. # [17:51] <Hixie> hsivonen: that isn't a problem with the term "dictator", it's a problem with the word "spec".
  359. # [17:51] <Hixie> hsivonen: c.f. the people who think the vendors should do whatever the wg resolves.
  360. # [17:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: that, too
  361. # [17:53] <hsivonen> I wonder where the supposed expert were expected to come from according to the writer of the blog post from a few days ago that advocated experts instead of browser vendors driving the spec
  362. # [17:54] <Philip`> What are they meant to be experts in?
  363. # [17:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: I don't know. They'd be experts.
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  365. # [18:01] <hsivonen> someone should write up some theory with words like "indifference curve" explaining what kind of things in practice can be decided by whom
  366. # [18:02] <Philip`> Might be easier to understand if it didn't use words like "indifference curve" :-)
  367. # [18:05] <hsivonen> fwiw, I think both "dictator" and "consensus" give the wrong idea of how things really happen
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  371. # [18:19] <hsivonen> I wonder if I get accused of being part of a vast browser-wing conspiracy if I blog about managing one's expectations when suggesting features for Web specs
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  373. # [18:21] <hsivonen> one thing that intrigues me is how socialization happens when a new person approaches a group like the WHATWG
  374. # [18:21] <annevk> sounds useful to blog about that
  375. # [18:22] <annevk> makes things easier when someone new comes along :)
  376. # [18:22] <hsivonen> I mean: why is it that some people fit the group but some people feel frustrated that they aren't being listened to
  377. # [18:22] <hsivonen> do people get socialized
  378. # [18:23] <hsivonen> or do the opinions a person happens to hold when approaching the group predetermine if the person fits in?
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  382. # [18:33] <hsivonen> do we have any documentation that indicates that "try to get a browser vendor to commit to implementing it experimentally" should be read the same way "patches welcome" should be read in an open source context?
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  385. # [18:39] <Philip`> i.e. "shut up and don't come back until you've done something productive"?
  386. # [18:39] <hsivonen> Philip`: right
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  388. # [18:42] <Philip`> It would be nicer if they weren't told to go away, even in politer language
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  397. # [19:06] * gsnedders waves
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  399. # [19:09] <Philip`> gsnedders: Hello
  400. # [19:10] <gsnedders> Onboard train internet access is so slow :(
  401. # [19:10] <gsnedders> and I keep getting errors trying to push the changes I made to the spec-ge
  402. # [19:10] <gsnedders> *gen
  403. # [19:11] <Philip`> Probably contention from all the passengers running BitTorrent
  404. # [19:11] <gsnedders> Got up to 12KB/s! New high!
  405. # [19:11] <gsnedders> It wasn't this bad last time :\
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  407. # [19:13] <gsnedders> Oh, well, it's not got as bad as it was when I was stuck outside Inverkeithing in May: highest was 51 _BYTES_ per second.
  408. # [19:13] <gsnedders> I was trying to download a bit of the Unicode spec at the time. It was estimating several hours remaining. For a single chapter.
  409. # [19:14] * Philip` looks at his Downloads window
  410. # [19:14] <Philip`> 1323.7 KByte/s for the last thing I downloaded, which sounds much more reasonable
  411. # [19:14] <gsnedders> WHAT!? Peak it now 35KB/s! That's amazing!
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  413. # [19:15] <gsnedders> (the highest I've ever got on a train would be maybe 300KB/s)
  414. # [19:16] * gsnedders sighs
  415. # [19:16] <gsnedders> I _can't_ get a connection that fast at home
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  423. # [19:33] <Hixie> hsivonen: i certainly don't mean "don't come back until you've done something productive"; we've had input from many people who have done nothing but make a suggestion, and that's absolutely fine
  424. # [19:34] <Hixie> hsivonen: however, when someone is told "we have considered that and rejected it because browser vendors won't implement it" and they argue back, then the real honest answer is "well then get a browser vendor to implement it"
  425. # [19:35] <Hixie> hsivonen: it's not a lie, it's not even misleading
  426. # [19:35] <Hixie> hsivonen: however, it's possible that some people do come to a working group like the whatwg with expectations that don't match what will happen (e.g. expecting suggestions to be considered without looking at previous existing content)
  427. # [19:36] <Hixie> hsivonen: (or not accepting that simplicity is a virtue for the web platform, or that a significant number of web developers will just copy and paste anything until it works)
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  433. # [19:56] <john_fallows> Hixie, does the "Server-sent DOM Events" section still need "DOM" in the title?
  434. # [19:56] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote closed the connection)
  435. # [19:56] <Hixie> i guess not
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  439. # [20:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: I wasn't suggesting that the "experimental implementation" line were a lie or misleading.
  440. # [20:06] <Hixie> sure
  441. # [20:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: and suggestions are fine too
  442. # [20:08] <hsivonen> after all, I don't have commit access to any browser code base
  443. # [20:08] <hsivonen> I suggest stuff, though
  444. # [20:08] <annevk> Hixie, "websocket-uri" is obviously the wrong name! :)
  445. # [20:09] <hsivonen> but I try not to act like I were entitled to get other implement my suggestions right away
  446. # [20:09] <hsivonen> s/other/others/
  447. # [20:10] <hsivonen> actually, I think the key to not getting too frustrated is not expecting to be entitled to swift implmentation in browsers
  448. # [20:15] <takkaria> what's the dictator blog post?
  449. # [20:15] <hsivonen> takkaria: http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/06/what_benevolent_dictator.html
  450. # [20:16] <takkaria> ah, thanks
  451. # [20:19] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  452. # [20:20] <Hixie> annevk: what should it be called instead (other than URL)?
  453. # [20:21] <annevk> URL is not an option?
  454. # [20:22] <Hixie> i might change it to URL, but that's not a good name either :-)
  455. # [20:23] <hsivonen> Hmm. the complexity of http://juicystudio.com/wcag/tables/complexdatatable.html is that the dataset is three-dimensional, isn't it?
  456. # [20:23] <hsivonen> actually, that's not exactly it
  457. # [20:24] <hsivonen> anyway, the table isn't immediately obvious even visually
  458. # [20:24] <annevk> Hixie, I suggest URL until something better comes up. Especially since we try to remove URI everywhere introducing it here is just confusing :)
  459. # [20:25] <annevk> Hixie, maybe location
  460. # [20:25] <annevk> though given that it holds a URL...
  461. # [20:47] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-ca3a1398477a045d) ("The computer fell asleep")
  462. # [20:49] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@131.107.204.126)
  463. # [21:00] <Lachy> My podcast interview has been released http://boagworld.com/podcast/124/
  464. # [21:06] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
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  473. # [21:51] <hober> #webapps is quite quiet for a group currently f2fing
  474. # [21:53] <Philip`> Maybe they moved to #wam or something
  475. # [21:55] <Philip`> by which I mean, it looks very much like they did
  476. # [21:55] <othermaciej> yes
  477. # [21:56] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  479. # [21:57] <annevk> aaah, they discovered our top secret meeting channel
  480. # [21:57] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  481. # [21:57] <Lachy> annevk, which channel are you in?
  482. # [21:57] <Philip`> Just a lucky guess
  483. # [21:58] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust455.cmbg.cable.ntl.com)
  484. # [21:58] <Lachy> wtf? Why was the web apps meeting in #wam???
  485. # [21:58] <gsnedders> Philip`: Do you know how late the co-op is open?
  486. # [21:58] <gsnedders> (like, the one by where you live)
  487. # [21:59] <Philip`> gsnedders: 10pm every day, if I remember correctly
  488. # [22:00] <gsnedders> Philip`: Ah, so I can still go out and buy something tonight. Thanks.
  489. # [22:00] <gsnedders> (i.e., I am now in town)
  490. # [22:01] <Philip`> Also, 10pm every day according to the web site, so that's likely to be the correct time
  491. # [22:01] <gsnedders> (I am also just using some random person's unencrypted wifi)
  492. # [22:01] <Philip`> though they tend to run out of food in the late evenings
  493. # [22:02] <gsnedders> Yes, my mother just said that.
  494. # [22:03] <Hixie> Lachy: their Chair told us that was how it was going to be and wouldn't entertain discussion on the subject
  495. # [22:03] <Hixie> i believe the chair works for opera, so i blame opera
  496. # [22:04] <Philip`> (Sainsbury's is open until 10pm too, and they don't have an annoyingly small selection of food, but that requires far too much effort for me to bother going there often)
  497. # [22:05] <gsnedders> I guess it's slightly closer for me, but only marginally
  498. # [22:05] <gsnedders> And for the sake of getting some juice, I'm not going to bother.
  499. # [22:05] <annevk> It took me a while to get this, but "the cloud" is basically a new word for Web servers?
  500. # [22:06] <Hixie> yes
  501. # [22:06] <hsivonen> I think "the cloud" implies that the person who runs a service doesn't know where the servers are
  502. # [22:07] <annevk> http://www.webware.com/8300-1_109-2.html?keyword=Google+Gears makes me think it's not that fine grained
  503. # [22:07] <hsivonen> (or at least I don't consider Validator.nu to be properly in the cloud, because I have an idea which part of the city the Xen VM is in)
  504. # [22:08] <Hixie> google considers its servers to be in the cloud and believe me, we know where our servers are
  505. # [22:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: I would have thought that the people writing the software didn't know which server runs the code at a given moment
  506. # [22:09] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-901eb98abc15fbf3)
  507. # [22:09] <Hixie> well i wouldn't want to comment on specifics, but your assumptions may be wrong
  508. # [22:10] <Philip`> The cloud is where Web 2.0 runs
  509. # [22:11] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@121-72-176-95.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  510. # [22:15] <othermaciej> "the cloud" is mostly a term that applies from the point of view of a user or client system
  511. # [22:15] <othermaciej> their data is somewhere remote and they allegedly don't have to care where -- it is "in the cloud"
  512. # [22:16] <Hixie> right
  513. # [22:16] <Hixie> the term "cloud" refers to the diagram icon used in network topology diagrams
  514. # [22:16] <Hixie> (where the internet is represented by a cloud-like bubble)
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  520. # [22:48] <Philip`> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/07/02/ie8-security-part-iv-the-xss-filter.aspx
  521. # [22:50] <Philip`> (I guess that'll break my unlive DOM viewer...)
  522. # [22:53] <Philip`> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/07/02/ie8-security-part-v-comprehensive-protection.aspx too - window.toStaticHTML(), native JSON, content-type sniffing changes, "Content-Type: text/plain; authoritative=true"
  523. # [22:54] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@dsl001-150-252.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  524. # [22:55] <Philip`> and changes to <input type=file>.value
  525. # [22:55] <Hixie> wtf is this xss filter
  526. # [22:56] <Hixie> it just blocks anything that says "><script> ?
  527. # [22:56] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) ("http://www.csarven.ca")
  528. # [22:56] <annevk> you can probably ask the guy who posted that blog post during the break
  529. # [22:56] <annevk> he's in the room
  530. # [22:57] <annevk> next to shepazu
  531. # [22:58] <Hixie> LOL
  532. # [22:58] <Hixie> "authoritative=true"
  533. # [22:58] <Hixie> that's awesometastic
  534. # [22:58] <annevk> not exactly "out loud" :p
  535. # [22:59] <Philip`> Hixie: It sounds like it looks for suspicious strings in the request, and for similar strings in the response, and blocks them if the complex undocumented heuristics say it's probably XSS
  536. # [23:00] <Philip`> Does HTML5 say a JS file served with Content-Type: text/javascript; authoritative=true must not be executed because it's got unknown type parameters?
  537. # [23:00] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@131.107.204.126) (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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  548. # [23:01] <Hixie> i believe so, yes
  549. # [23:03] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust455.cmbg.cable.ntl.com)
  550. # [23:03] <gsnedders> 3l of good juice for £2.50. Not bad.
  551. # [23:04] <gsnedders> And it did seem to have plenty of stuff, interestingly, despite both Philip` and my mother's warnings
  552. # [23:05] <Philip`> Well, it always has plenty of stuff, but often not of the few specific things I'm looking for :-(
  553. # [23:16] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust455.cmbg.cable.ntl.com) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  554. # [23:17] * Hixie has finished the client-side requirements for Web Sockets
  555. # [23:17] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust455.cmbg.cable.ntl.com)
  556. # [23:17] <gsnedders> Hmm, this wi-fi comes and goes
  557. # [23:19] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  558. # [23:21] <roc> handy rule: anyone who writes "PhD" after their name is likely to be a jerk
  559. # [23:21] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust455.cmbg.cable.ntl.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  561. # [23:22] <Philip`> gsnedders: Knock on your neighbour's door and tell them off for having rubbish wireless
  562. # [23:22] <gsnedders> That means going across to the next block of flats, and that's too much effort
  563. # [23:22] <gsnedders> and it's my uncle's flat :P
  564. # [23:23] <Philip`> Or go to http://192.168.0.1 (password "" or "admin") and see if you can reconfigure the wireless signal
  565. # [23:23] * Joins: hdh0 (n=hdh@118.71.120.179)
  566. # [23:24] <Philip`> Also, get irssi+screen+ssh so you don't miss the exciting happenings while you are disconnected :-)
  567. # [23:24] <gsnedders> Philip`: someday I will :P
  568. # [23:25] <Lachy> I need a server that I can run irssi+screen on, before I can do that
  569. # [23:25] <Philip`> Find an unencrypted wireless router and replace its firmware with Linux and use that as your server
  570. # [23:26] <gsnedders> Hixie: Can we actually put authorative=true in the HTML 5 spec? I mean, it won't break anything
  571. # [23:26] <Lachy> hmm, that's an interesting idea
  572. # [23:26] <Lachy> gsnedders, what is authorative=true?
  573. # [23:27] <gsnedders> Lachy: IE8b2 supports "Content-Type: text/plain; authoritative=true", which makes the Content-Type trusted
  574. # [23:27] <Lachy> oh
  575. # [23:27] <Lachy> why don't they just stop implementing content sniffing?
  576. # [23:28] <gsnedders> far too much relies upon it
  577. # [23:28] <Lachy> I don't care
  578. # [23:28] <gsnedders> I do :)
  579. # [23:28] <gsnedders> It'd break as much as requiring an SGML parser to be used for text/html, almost
  580. # [23:28] <Lachy> other browsers don't implment it as badly as IE does
  581. # [23:29] <gsnedders> They're making it better in IE8, though
  582. # [23:29] <Lachy> sniffing binary files served as text/plain is ok, but IE goes too far by sniffing text/html
  583. # [23:29] <gsnedders> You need to sniff text/html for whether it is a feed, but no more
  584. # [23:30] <Lachy> was IE8b2 released yet?
  585. # [23:30] <gsnedders> Nope
  586. # [23:30] <Lachy> ah, then where did you hear about authoritative=1 from?
  587. # [23:30] <Philip`> Lachy: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/
  588. # [23:31] <gsnedders> Lachy: there's a load posted on the IE blog about what's coming
  589. # [23:31] <Philip`> (See the latest three posts)
  590. # [23:31] <gsnedders> The York Open Day managed to totally put me off CS there, FWIW
  591. # [23:32] <Philip`> What did they do wrong?
  592. # [23:32] <Lachy> gsnedders, oh, I must have missed reading that last blog post
  593. # [23:32] <gsnedders> Philip`: They care about the really high level, and the really low level, but not really anything between
  594. # [23:33] <Philip`> gsnedders: Like software engineering and digital electronics but no programming, or something like that?
  595. # [23:33] <Lachy> omg, X-Download-Options looks a bit silly
  596. # [23:34] <gsnedders> Philip`: Well, only programming is Java, and yeah, doing those two
  597. # [23:35] <roc> I wonder about "authoritative=true"
  598. # [23:35] <roc> I wonder if we'll later have "really-authoritative=true"
  599. # [23:36] <gsnedders> Well, if other browsers don't do it, then we might end up like that :P
  600. # [23:37] <Philip`> roc: That won't be needed - just use "authoritative=truer"
  601. # [23:37] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-757c2439d6268d94)
  602. # [23:37] * Philip` wonders what authoritative=false will do
  603. # [23:37] <roc> authoritative=IE8
  604. # [23:38] <Philip`> X-Sniffing-Algorithm: ie8
  605. # [23:38] <Lachy> roc, would that mean that other browsers need to ask IE8 what it would do before proceeding?
  606. # [23:38] <roc> so their toStaticHTML proposal might be worth something
  607. # [23:39] <roc> Lachy: yeah I think so. Maybe Microsoft should have a Web service that other browsers can hand content to for IE8 rendering
  608. # [23:39] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.120.97) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  609. # [23:40] <Lachy> roc, nah, other browsers should just secretly embed IE8's rendering engine in their own products
  610. # [23:40] <Lachy> then we'll have perfect interoperability
  611. # [23:40] <Philip`> Lachy: Only if nobody ever upgrades to IE9
  612. # [23:50] <Hixie> gsnedders: it's a retarded idea
  613. # [23:50] <jgraham> gsnedders: FWIW York's open day totally put me off from going there but for different reasons
  614. # [23:50] <Hixie> gsnedders: it'll just get content-sniffed itself in a few years
  615. # [23:51] <Hixie> roc: yeah i'm looking forward to being able to reverse engineer this and work out what they missed
  616. # [23:51] <Hixie> roc: though i think sandboxed iframes might be a better solution in practice (with doc="" maybe)
  617. # [23:51] <Philip`> Maybe IIS will start sending authoritative=true by default on all content, for security
  618. # [23:52] <Hixie> Philip`: that would make it be sniffed even quicker
  619. # [23:52] <Hixie> Philip`: since IE7 will still sniff on those pages
  620. # [23:52] <roc> yeah, sandboxes IFRAMEs would be considerably more powerful.
  621. # [23:52] <Philip`> Maybe IIS will UA-sniff and send authoritative=true to IE8
  622. # [23:53] <roc> someone should lean on MS to put toStaticHTML through a standards group
  623. # [23:55] <jcranmer> where's the WebIDL stuff defined?
  624. # [23:56] <jcranmer> nm, found it
  625. # [23:56] * jcranmer wonders why they name it "DOM-Bindings" still
  626. # [23:58] <Lachy> Philip`, according to a browser upgrade study done by Google and other companies, no-one upgrades IE anyway.
  627. # [23:58] <Hixie> jcranmer: it is renamed
  628. # [23:58] <Hixie> jcranmer: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/
  629. # [23:58] <annevk> it's a bit weird why it was moved
  630. # [23:59] <annevk> maybe I should not care
  631. # [23:59] <jcranmer> hmm, very recently renamed :-)
  632. # [23:59] <jcranmer> they haven't changed over DOM-Bindings link to point to WebIDL
  633. # Session Close: Thu Jul 03 00:00:01 2008

The end :)