/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-07-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jul 03 00:00:01 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:06] <Lachy> has anyone listened to my boagworld interview yet? Any feedback for me?
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  9. # [00:30] <Lachy> they finally get to my interview at about 30 minutes into the show.
  10. # [00:33] <Hixie> cool, look forward to listening to it
  11. # [00:33] <Hixie> probably monday
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  41. # [03:20] <Philip`> jacobolus: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080702#l-282
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  43. # [03:23] <jacobolus> Philip`: that may be, but that limits what you can do
  44. # [03:24] <jacobolus> Philip`: it's quite useful to draw a bit, then transform, then draw a bit more (in the same path)
  45. # [03:25] <jacobolus> Philip`: that spec wording you pasted in that chat seems about right to me, and is sufficiently explicit. cool.
  46. # [03:25] <Philip`> jacobolus: Only Opera prevents you from doing that, and nobody uses Opera so you could ignore it ;-)
  47. # [03:26] <jacobolus> yep
  48. # [03:26] <jacobolus> that's the plan
  49. # [03:26] * Philip` uses Opera :-(
  50. # [03:26] <jacobolus> Philip`: so my little test thing at http://www.orbited.org/wiki/CanvasShapes won’t work for you then
  51. # [03:27] <jacobolus> or rather, it will only draw circles
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  53. # [03:28] <Philip`> jacobolus: That's what happens in Opera, though I can trivially switch to Firefox to see it properly :-)
  54. # [03:31] <Philip`> jacobolus: The arc() call for drawing circles should probably use false (clockwise) instead of true, else (according to the spec) it might (if Math.PI > π) draw nothing instead of a circle
  55. # [03:31] <jacobolus> okay
  56. # [03:32] <Philip`> (because of the way angles get wrapped, depending on the clockwisity and the angles)
  57. # [03:32] <jacobolus> Philip`: I would expect one of arc(x, y, radius, 0, 0, false) and arc(x, y, radius, 0, 0, true) to draw a whole circle
  58. # [03:32] <jacobolus> but both just do nothing
  59. # [03:32] <Philip`> (Hmm, maybe "clockwisdom" is a better term)
  60. # [03:32] <jacobolus> hehe
  61. # [03:34] <Philip`> arc() is a bit weird and unintuitive
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  63. # [03:35] <Philip`> but it's implemented interoperably in Firefox and WebKit, so I guess there'd need to be strong justification for changing the spec to not match those implementations
  64. # [03:44] <jacobolus> Philip`: hmm, if I use a bit more than 2π for the second angle, it draws most of a circle whether I use true or false
  65. # [03:52] <Philip`> jacobolus: Argh
  66. # [03:52] <Philip`> You are entirely right, and that is the expected behaviour
  67. # [03:52] <Philip`> I just get this all mixed up every time I look at arc() :-/
  68. # [03:52] <Philip`> I remember not enough to be correct, but enough to be dangerous
  69. # [03:53] <jacobolus> Philip`: is there a mathy explanation of how arc is supposed to work?
  70. # [03:53] <Philip`> jacobolus: What do you consider "mathy"?
  71. # [03:53] <Philip`> (particularly compared to what's in the spec already)
  72. # [03:53] <jacobolus> just unambiguous. I haven't read what the spec says about arc :)
  73. # [03:56] <Philip`> If start->end is clockwise (i.e. end > start), and anticlockwise=false, then it draws all the way from start to end and possibly goes all the way around the circle (though at most once); and if anticlockwise=true, then the angles are wrapped modulo 2pi and the shortest anticlockwise arc from start to end is drawn
  74. # [03:56] <Philip`> and same if you swap all mentions of 'clockwise' and 'anticlockwise'
  75. # [03:56] <Philip`> or at least I think that's what it is
  76. # [03:59] <Philip`> Oh, maybe the problem is if Math.PI < π, because drawing anticlockwise from 0 to 2π-ε would draw an ε-long line instead of a circle
  77. # [03:59] <Philip`> But I could still be wrong, so I'll just give up and go to bed :-)
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  79. # [04:01] <jacobolus> Philip`: yes, that is true
  80. # [04:02] <jacobolus> Philip`: if you have Math.PI < π then arc(x, y, radius, 0, 2*Math.PI, true) draws nothing
  81. # [04:02] <jacobolus> so you’re right, to draw a circle I should use false
  82. # [04:04] <Philip`> Drawing circles is quite irritatingly complex
  83. # [04:04] <Philip`> Anyway, good night for now
  84. # [04:05] <jacobolus> 'night
  85. # [04:05] <jacobolus> thanks
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  163. # [09:59] <gDashiva> "Because of the number of legacy servers on the web (e.g. those that serve all files as text/plain) MIME-sniffing is an important compatibility feature."
  164. # [09:59] <gDashiva> Are these text/plain web servers related to hsivonen's transcoding proxies?
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  170. # [10:19] <Hixie> hsivonen: the most common errors i get are (1) mistyping the start tag (e.g. missing the leading <), and (2) getting hte wrong end tag.
  171. # [10:19] <Hixie> these two errors both cause an inordinate number of errors to be reported and none of them really say what the actual mistake was.
  172. # [10:20] <Hixie> e.g. <p> foo var title="">x</vsr> </p> and <p> <a href="">x</span> </p>
  173. # [10:20] <othermaciej> I had a similar experience with the validator
  174. # [10:21] <othermaciej> although the mistake was missing close "
  175. # [10:22] <Hixie> the wrong end tag for an inline element in particular cascades into an error for almost every block-level element in the tree from the point of the error on.
  176. # [10:22] <Hixie> which is exciting when the error is half way down the html5 spec
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  179. # [10:26] <Hixie> first draft of Web Sockets has now been completely defined
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  182. # [10:27] <jacobolus> Hixie: that sounds great. I'll take a look tomorrow morning
  183. # [10:29] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#network
  184. # [10:38] <Hixie> Lachy_: just listend to the podcast on the web, and i think you did great!
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  186. # [10:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: recorded http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=258
  187. # [10:40] <Hixie> cool
  188. # [10:41] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  189. # [10:42] <Lachy> Hixie, really? I couldn't listen to it all. The sound of my own voice is irritating.
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  191. # [10:49] <Hixie> heh
  192. # [10:49] <Hixie> it was fine as far as i could tell :-)
  193. # [10:49] <Hixie> one's own voice is often found to irritate one
  194. # [10:50] <Lachy> I tend to say um and ah far too often, at least at the beginning
  195. # [10:50] <Lachy> I need to practice more
  196. # [10:50] <Hixie> eh, everyone does :-)
  197. # [10:50] <Hixie> you should hear my talks, i'm terrible
  198. # [10:50] <Lachy> have you got any recorded?
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  201. # [10:54] <Hixie> not publicly :-)
  202. # [10:56] <Hixie> right bed time
  203. # [10:56] <Hixie> nn
  204. # [10:59] <hsivonen> Lachy: It's a bit hard to comment, since I already know the topic, so I can't comment what it souded like to someone who doesn't.
  205. # [10:59] <hsivonen> Lachy: you did go a bit easy (non-controversially) on the XHTML vs. HTML question
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  207. # [11:00] <Hixie> (wow, julian was fast at sending that complaint about the Web Socket Protocol)
  208. # [11:06] <Lachy> hsivonen, of course I did. If I said anything bad about XHTML, think of the complaints I'd be getting from certain people
  209. # [11:07] <Lachy> gotta go, bbl
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  214. # [11:11] <othermaciej> Hixie: specifying the bytes is not really helpful to implementors (I don't think anyone will put an array of hex values in their code instead of a string)
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  216. # [11:11] <hsivonen> othermaciej: for another part of the spec I did and later regretted
  217. # [11:12] <hsivonen> (not an array actually, but individual numbers)
  218. # [11:13] <othermaciej> yikes
  219. # [11:14] <othermaciej> I don't understand also why validating the response depends on details that are irrelevant from the HTTP point of view
  220. # [11:15] <othermaciej> that makes it harder to make a module for an existing web server that would implement this on the same port as the normal connection
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  222. # [11:16] <othermaciej> seems like gratuitous draconianism (but maybe I am missing the motivation)
  223. # [11:17] <othermaciej> also the fact that it defaults to a weird port and doesn't rely on same-origin security at all partly misses the point of making it look like HTTP
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  225. # [11:19] <othermaciej> I guess I can send email tomorrow
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  228. # [11:46] <mcarter> good evening
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  254. # [15:07] <Windstoss> What is the browser supposed to do, when an author sets contenteditable for <title></title>?
  255. # [15:08] <annevk> Hixie, "their originating server" seems false, as it clearly allows cross-origin
  256. # [15:09] <annevk> Windstoss, make it editable?
  257. # [15:10] <zcorpan> Windstoss: same as any other element i guess
  258. # [15:11] * magnusrk is now known as gDashiva
  259. # [15:19] <zcorpan> Philip`: is there an easy way to sort the canvas results table so that tests that fail across the board are at the top, tests with 1 pass next, 2 passes next, and so forth?
  260. # [15:30] <Philip`> zcorpan: The easy way is to just write a script that sorts them based on the class names, I would expect
  261. # [15:31] <zcorpan> Philip`: ok
  262. # [15:33] <Philip`> zcorpan: probably something like http://philip.html5.org/misc/canvas-table-sort.txt but less rubbish
  263. # [15:37] <zcorpan> Philip`: thanks, you're faster than me :)
  264. # [15:39] <Philip`> JS needs an operator like Perl's <=> and cmp
  265. # [15:44] <Philip`> zcorpan: (Updated the script to give nicer output now)
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  268. # [15:50] <zcorpan> Philip`: thanks
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  271. # [15:51] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/dump/canvas-results-sorted.html
  272. # [15:52] <zcorpan> i think i'll go through the top ones and see if it makes sense to change the spec
  273. # [15:53] <Philip`> It'd probably be sensible to ignore the Excanvas column
  274. # [15:54] <zcorpan> yeah but it's mostly fail anyway :)
  275. # [15:55] <zcorpan> is it defined somewhere what should happen in general with too few or too many arguments?
  276. # [15:56] <Philip`> zcorpan: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#common
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  279. # [16:02] <zcorpan> wonder if it would be useful to have a standard exception for not enough arguments
  280. # [16:02] <zcorpan> that is different from NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR
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  282. # [16:04] <annevk> if the use case is testing, no :)
  283. # [16:04] <gDashiva> WRONG_ARITY_ERR
  284. # [16:05] <zcorpan> well debugging for authors
  285. # [16:06] <zcorpan> "not enough arguments" is more helpful than "NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR" when the author looks in the error console to figure out why it doesn't work
  286. # [16:06] <annevk> usually exceptions have some message that could be more detailed
  287. # [16:06] <zcorpan> oh that's true
  288. # [16:06] <zcorpan> ok
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  296. # [16:23] <zcorpan> hmm, is the imageData stuff not implemented yet?
  297. # [16:25] <annevk> it is
  298. # [16:25] <annevk> though in varying degree
  299. # [16:36] <zcorpan> now i wonder, should i post my notes to whatwg, public-html or file a bug?
  300. # [16:37] * zcorpan posts to whatwg
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  302. # [16:39] <Philip`> zcorpan: Nobody implements it all, as far as I'm aware
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  309. # [17:18] <annevk> Hixie, yt? any idea whether we postponed the meeting to 10AM again?
  310. # [17:30] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-0519.bb.online.no)
  311. # [17:31] <annevk> guess i'll be there at nine
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  326. # [18:24] <annevk> seems I was wrong, nobody here :/
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  348. # [19:43] <gsnedders> Hixie: What's the justification for not just using full HTTP/1.1 for WebSockets?
  349. # [19:45] <takkaria> it's the requirement to write a websockets server in only a few lines of code
  350. # [19:45] <takkaria> I believe, anyway
  351. # [19:46] <annevk> indeed
  352. # [19:46] <Hixie> right
  353. # [19:47] <gsnedders> peh. we already have perfectly good HTTP servers.
  354. # [19:47] <Hixie> i'm not writing a whole web server just to do a chat client
  355. # [19:47] <Hixie> the "perfectly good HTTP servers" don't do full duplex.
  356. # [19:47] <Hixie> cos HTTP isn't full duplex.
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  361. # [19:50] <gsnedders> hmm, looking through the diff of spec-gen v. the CSS WG's postprocessor, a heckuva lot is just the difference between actually parsing it and serializing it v. rewriting parts of the document
  362. # [19:50] <gsnedders> brb (again)
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  365. # [19:51] <gsnedders> (back)
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  370. # [19:59] <Hixie> othermaciej: the reason for having an exact hex dump is to make absolutely sure that the remote end really is a WebSocket server and isn't being tricked into pretending to be one
  371. # [19:59] <gsnedders> Why claim to be an HTTP server?
  372. # [19:59] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9e42.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  373. # [20:00] <gsnedders> (i.e., get off ma lawn!)
  374. # [20:00] <Hixie> so that you can reuse the same port
  375. # [20:00] <othermaciej> Hixie: it seems like the most likely thing to trick would be a generic web server that doesn't actually support WebSocket at all
  376. # [20:01] <othermaciej> in which case, requiring a particular header order does not seem like a strong defense
  377. # [20:02] <othermaciej> but it may well make it more of a pain in the ass to implement it integrated into normal web servers
  378. # [20:02] <Hixie> well there's no way that a random HTTP server is going to be saying "Upgrade: WebSocket".
  379. # [20:04] <othermaciej> it seems unlikely that anything else could be made to produce something that looks like an http response with the right status code and response headers, but only with the headers in a different order
  380. # [20:04] <john_fallows> Hixie, looks you are making very good progress with the WebSocket section :)
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  383. # [20:06] <Hixie> john_fallows: it's basically done :-)
  384. # [20:06] <john_fallows> i have a question about the step 11 in the handshake
  385. # [20:07] <Philip`> ...except for the implementations and tests and feedback and tutorials and ...
  386. # [20:07] <john_fallows> why use GET rather than OPTIONS?
  387. # [20:08] <Philip`> (Note to self: Hash tables don't work well when you have ten thousand items and the hash function always returns 0)
  388. # [20:10] * gsnedders is looking over an htmldiff of the real spec-gen's output and his own
  389. # [20:10] <gsnedders> no breakage that I've seen yet
  390. # [20:10] <Hixie> othermaciej: i don't think it's that unlikely. we'd still have to define error handling to a lot of detail, too, so it seems better to make that as simple as possible
  391. # [20:10] <Hixie> Philip`: i just meant the text in the spec :-)
  392. # [20:11] <gsnedders> (well, breakages due to one or two things not being supported yet)
  393. # [20:11] <Hixie> john_fallows: OPTIONS means "tell me about this resource", GET means "give me this resource"
  394. # [20:11] <Hixie> john_fallows: we don't want to know if it's possible, we just want to connect :-)
  395. # [20:13] <john_fallows> don't we need to wait for the 101 Switching Protocols to know if it's possible?
  396. # [20:18] * Quits: Maurice` (i=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  397. # [20:18] <john_fallows> Hixie: sorry, did not prefix my last comment with your id
  398. # [20:19] <Hixie> well, it's like with a normal GET request right? You don't know if the URL exists before you call it.
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  400. # [20:28] * csarven- is now known as csarven
  401. # [20:29] <john_fallows> Hixie: yes, that applies to many different HTTP methods with request paths, such as GET, POST, PUT, DELETE, HEAD, OPTIONS, so it doesn't seem to imply the use of GET
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  404. # [20:37] * gsnedders_ is now known as gsnedders
  405. # [20:39] <john_fallows> Hixie: OPTIONS implies we are negotiating capabilities of the conversation, which IMHO seems like the best fit for the WebSocket handshake
  406. # [20:40] <Hixie> OPTIONS isn't negotiation, it's asking for information
  407. # [20:41] <gsnedders> Now, I need help with a non-recursive algorithm
  408. # [20:42] <john_fallows> Hixie: you are right, OPTIONS is asking for meta-information about a resource, not the resource itself - that's why OPTIONS is a better fit over GET
  409. # [20:43] <Hixie> we want a resource here, not meta information
  410. # [20:43] <gsnedders> Namely, http://pastebin.com/m2f04a2a
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  412. # [20:44] <john_fallows> if we wanted to return the actual resource, wouldn't that be a 200 OK or similar with a request body?
  413. # [20:45] <Hixie> it is
  414. # [20:45] <annevk> gsnedders, hey, how far is your specgen?
  415. # [20:45] <Hixie> well
  416. # [20:45] <Hixie> it's a 101
  417. # [20:45] <Hixie> but 101 just means "i'm moving to another protocol to give you the 200 OK"
  418. # [20:45] <gsnedders> annevk: xref is more or less perfect, I just need to build the TOC from the internal structure and add section numbers
  419. # [20:46] <gsnedders> and that'll probably do for 1.0 (well, with some bugfixes)
  420. # [20:46] <annevk> is it available as web service already?
  421. # [20:46] <gsnedders> nope
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  423. # [20:50] <john_fallows> Hixie: we do want meta-information about the resource, namely whether or not it supports Upgrade: WebSocket
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  426. # [20:51] <Hixie> john_fallows: no, we want it to actually upgrade
  427. # [20:52] <Hixie> it's like saying when you go to ikea to buy a cupboard, you're looking for the instructions to build the cupboard, not the cupboard itself
  428. # [20:56] <john_fallows> looking at the TLS Upgrade scenario in RFC2817 - http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2817.txt
  429. # [20:57] <john_fallows> they specify Optional Upgrade using GET and Mandatory Upgrade using OPTIONS
  430. # [20:57] <gsnedders> Hixie: I want the pieces to build the cupboard from too, when I go to IKEA
  431. # [20:58] <john_fallows> the WebSocket upgrade is mandatory, which seems to imply using OPTIONS rather than GET
  432. # [21:06] <Hixie> 2817 is on crack
  433. # [21:06] <Hixie> note how nobody implements it
  434. # [21:08] * gsnedders passes Hixie some crack so he can be on it too
  435. # [21:08] <Hixie> no thanks :-)
  436. # [21:10] <gsnedders> 0.714s to xref HTML 5
  437. # [21:11] <Hixie> how long to parse? :-)
  438. # [21:11] <gsnedders> Far too long :)
  439. # [21:12] <gsnedders> 13.106s
  440. # [21:14] <Hixie> d'oh
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  443. # [21:29] <john_fallows> if the handshake is forced to either Upgrade or fail, and can never return a non-upgraded response, i don't see how we can justify using GET over OPTIONS
  444. # [21:29] <Hixie> i don't see how we can justify using OPTIONS
  445. # [21:30] <john_fallows> sorry Hixie, don't mean to bug you on this, just trying to better understand the "is on crack" response earlier :)
  446. # [21:30] <Hixie> rfc2817 is just fundamentally not a sane spec
  447. # [21:30] <Hixie> and is not likely to convince me as an appeal to authority :-)
  448. # [21:31] <john_fallows> maybe if i understood why you think that, it would be easier for me to reach your perspective
  449. # [21:34] <Hixie> it makes fundamental mistakes like not having a way for pages to say that following a link must happen over an encrypted channel
  450. # [21:35] <john_fallows> is that relevant to the optional upgrade=GET, mandatory upgrade=OPTIONS?
  451. # [21:35] <Hixie> well, that's just another example of something i don't think is sane in that spec :-)
  452. # [21:36] <Hixie> i'm just saying that RFC2817 being a proponent of something or not isn't a useful technical argument
  453. # [21:36] <Philip`> Hixie: If you made the encoded length value be big-endian instead of little-endian, then it'd be compatible with Perl's "pack 'w'", which might be nice
  454. # [21:36] <john_fallows> ok, understood
  455. # [21:36] <john_fallows> well, we're not even delivering a pseudo 200 OK after the 101, because after the protocol switch we are both sending and receiving bytes on the wire, it is no longer about resource retrieval
  456. # [21:38] <Hixie> john_fallows: once it's upgraded, it is implied that it is OK :-)
  457. # [21:38] <Hixie> Philip`: hm, interesting
  458. # [21:39] <john_fallows> yeah, but you didn't actually retrieve any resource when it upgraded, you just changed the rules on how to communicate with that resource
  459. # [21:42] <Hixie> well, the full duplex socket is the resource
  460. # [21:42] <john_fallows> identified by the request URI
  461. # [21:44] <Hixie> right
  462. # [21:45] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust455.cmbg.cable.ntl.com) (Connection timed out)
  463. # [21:48] <john_fallows> so what are you saying? GET makes sense to you because you are "GET"ing the full duplex socket resource?
  464. # [21:54] <Hixie> right
  465. # [21:54] <Hixie> Philip`: i have switched to big endian
  466. # [21:58] <john_fallows> those semantics are not consistent with HTTP specification's definition of the GET method, to transfer an entity identified by request URI
  467. # [21:59] <Philip`> Hixie: It should multiply 'length' by 128 in each iteration, not by 'multiple'
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  481. # [22:46] <Hixie> Philip`: oops
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  488. # [22:52] <gsnedders> Does anyone want to bitch about how bad http://pastebin.com/m3f6dd4f4 is?
  489. # [22:53] <gsnedders> That's my first attempt at a non-recursive implementation of that (due to the need to be able to cope with infinitely deep nested sections)
  490. # [22:53] <gsnedders> (which jgraham's online viewer will hit the recursion limit with)
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  493. # [23:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: in the binary math, shifting left may be more intuitive that multiplication
  494. # [23:07] * epeus is now known as KevinMarks
  495. # [23:08] <Hixie> true
  496. # [23:08] <Hixie> too busy to change it right now
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  502. # [23:16] <Philip`> Nobody's going to implement it correctly - they'll all wrap at 2^31 or 2^32 or 2^64 or something
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  504. # [23:17] <Hixie> probably
  505. # [23:17] <Philip`> so maybe it should be defined so that a straightforward 32-bit implementation will work correctly, because nobody has a legitimate reason to send 4GB messages
  506. # [23:17] <Hixie> today
  507. # [23:17] <roc> 4GB ought to be enough for anyone
  508. # [23:17] <gsnedders> Hmm, my HD is bigger than that.
  509. # [23:17] * Hixie already deals with terabyte files
  510. # [23:18] <Philip`> You can split the data up into multiple messages
  511. # [23:18] <takkaria> Hixie: yes, but will you really want to send those files over a WebSocket?
  512. # [23:18] <annevk> couple of MB was enough for anyone at some point in the past
  513. # [23:18] <jgraham> gsnedders: Why re you using a deque?
  514. # [23:18] <annevk> even a couple of KB...
  515. # [23:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: Well, it probably doesn't make much difference on such a small outline (even as big as HTML 5)
  516. # [23:19] <Philip`> You don't really want to transmit 4.0GB of your 4.1GB file and then have the connection drop and have to resend the entire thing, so you'd always split it up and build some higher-level file transfer protocol on top of it
  517. # [23:19] <takkaria> if you're dealing with 4GB of data transfer at one point, you're better using BitTorrent or something else
  518. # [23:19] <takkaria> I thought WebSocket was there for chat applications and remote train control, not sending files
  519. # [23:19] <Hixie> we can certainly define a limit after which the client should abort the connection
  520. # [23:19] <Hixie> that's what i tried doing on the last checkin
  521. # [23:19] <Philip`> gsnedders: Replace deque with list, and replace extendleft with push, and replace popleft with pop
  522. # [23:20] <Philip`> s/push/append/ or whatever
  523. # [23:20] <jgraham> gsnedders: what Philip` said
  524. # [23:20] <Philip`> gsnedders: Also have a single list of (section, indent) tuples, instead of two lists
  525. # [23:20] <gsnedders> Hey, I'm not a CS student!
  526. # [23:20] <jgraham> gsnedders: Me neither :)
  527. # [23:21] <Philip`> gsnedders: (unless that'd make the implementation ugly, but I don't see obvious problems)
  528. # [23:21] <gsnedders> Philip`: Well, extend not push
  529. # [23:21] * jgraham was going to write you an implementation which just walked the tree iteratively
  530. # [23:21] <Philip`> gsnedders: Oh, right, I meant s/push/extend/
  531. # [23:22] <jgraham> But that's only really easier if you have parent pointers and I don't know if you do
  532. # [23:22] <gsnedders> lxml has _Element.parent
  533. # [23:23] <Philip`> takkaria: I'd be pretty worried if I was a passenger on a train that was being controlled by Web Sockets :-(
  534. # [23:23] <jgraham> gsnedders: But a section is not an lxml element, right?
  535. # [23:23] <gsnedders> jgraham: right
  536. # [23:23] <gsnedders> jgraham: It's a subclass of list, and has section.header and section.parent
  537. # [23:24] <gsnedders> You need to be able to get the parent to implement the algorithm anyway
  538. # [23:26] <gsnedders> Philip`: How can I do something like l18?
  539. # [23:26] <takkaria> Philip`: not if you were a fly. :)
  540. # [23:27] <gsnedders> Philip`: All I can think to do is a loop over section and append a truple for each
  541. # [23:28] <Philip`> gsnedders: section_and_indents_list.extend((s, indent+2) for s in sections) perhaps
  542. # [23:28] <jgraham> gsnedders sections.extend((sec, indent+2) for sec on section)
  543. # [23:28] * Joins: mcarter (n=mcarter@c-24-6-178-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  544. # [23:28] <gsnedders> ah, I don't often think of that, and not with truples
  545. # [23:28] <Philip`> s/sections/section/
  546. # [23:28] <jgraham> s/on/in/ of course
  547. # [23:30] <gsnedders> I've done something wrong.
  548. # [23:30] <Hixie> q+
  549. # [23:30] <Hixie> er
  550. # [23:30] <Hixie> wc
  551. # [23:36] <gsnedders> That just looks messy.
  552. # [23:36] <gsnedders> http://pastebin.com/m7d7fc0a1
  553. # [23:38] <gsnedders> 22*C here tomorrow.
  554. # [23:38] <Hixie> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/TranslateServerError.jpg
  555. # [23:38] <Hixie> ...
  556. # [23:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: that's awesome
  557. # [23:39] <gsnedders> I think that's a bug.
  558. # [23:39] <roc> owah
  559. # [23:40] <roc> could it be photoshopped?
  560. # [23:40] <Hixie> could be
  561. # [23:40] <Hixie> wouldn't surprise me if it was real
  562. # [23:40] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@ti0034a380-2730.bb.online.no)
  563. # [23:41] <gsnedders> http://xkcd.com/331/
  564. # [23:41] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@ti0034a380-2730.bb.online.no)
  565. # [23:41] <roc> it could be real, but a *lot* of Chinese people know English these days, especially ones involved in the Olympics I guess
  566. # [23:42] <roc> so it would have to be a monumental stuff-up
  567. # [23:42] <roc> which is of course entirely possible
  568. # [23:42] <gsnedders> Like, committing code that breaks everything thinking it's a tiny fix and can't possibly break anything?
  569. # [23:43] <jgraham> gsnedders: You should do something like item = sections.pop(); section, indent = item
  570. # [23:43] <takkaria> there's a massive screen in Manchester, UK, right in the middle of town, which every now and again has Windows error boxes about media types not being supported
  571. # [23:43] <gsnedders> jgraham: or just section, indent = sections.pop()
  572. # [23:43] <jgraham> Yeah, or just that :)
  573. # [23:43] <gsnedders> jgraham: Myself coding half asleep isn't good :)
  574. # [23:44] <gsnedders> Actually building the TOC, inevitably, is more complex.
  575. # [23:47] <gsnedders> I also need to deal with no-toc
  576. # [23:49] <gsnedders> How come I need reversed() like this, but not with the non-recursive algorithm?
  577. # [23:50] <jgraham> Do you mean not with the recursive algorithm?
  578. # [23:50] <gsnedders> yeah
  579. # [23:51] <gsnedders> I _am_ half asleep, remember :P
  580. # [23:51] <jgraham> Because at each stage you want to pick the first child of the current section to serialize next which means that it has to go on the far right of the array so it is popped off next
  581. # [23:52] <gsnedders> duh.
  582. # [23:52] <jgraham> Alternatively, if there are no children, you want the next sibling of the current node, so that has to be one to the left of the current node in the array
  583. # [23:52] <gsnedders> Because I push and not pop now.
  584. # [23:53] * gsnedders is really proving how silly his is when tired
  585. # [23:53] * gsnedders heads off to sleep
  586. # [23:53] <jgraham> His what is ? ;)
  587. # [23:53] <gsnedders> :)
  588. # [23:53] <gsnedders> s/his/he/
  589. # [23:54] <jgraham> Did anyone mention http://www.toolness.com/wp/?p=52 already?
  590. # Session Close: Fri Jul 04 00:00:00 2008

The end :)