/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-07-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jul 07 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  26. # [03:41] <Hixie> i wish i'd spelt it <eventsource>
  27. # [03:41] <Hixie> i wonder if it's too late to change it
  28. # [03:41] <Hixie> only opera implements it right?
  29. # [03:41] <jacobolus> Hixie: yes, only opera
  30. # [03:42] <Philip`> Events ource?
  31. # [03:42] * Hixie looks around for an opera person to hassle
  32. # [03:42] * Philip` likes explicit word separators
  33. # [03:42] <jacobolus> Philip`: psycho the rapist?
  34. # [03:42] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah but none of the other html elements have hyphens
  35. # [03:42] <Hixie> and precious few attributes do either
  36. # [03:42] <Hixie> (only http-equiv?)
  37. # [03:43] <jacobolus> Hixie: I think arve (whatever his handle is; I don't remember) is the best one to ask about SSE in opera
  38. # [03:44] <Philip`> jacobolus: and http://www.penisland.net/ etc
  39. # [03:44] <jacobolus> Hixie: did anyone consider “That said, I recommend the addition of .getTransformation to the Canvas specification: it will save a lot of unnecessary code rewriting, most of which is matrix multiplication best done in a low-level language.” from http://azarask.in/blog/post/contextfreejs-algorithm-ink-making-art-with-javascript/ ??
  40. # [03:46] <Hixie> i'll poke anne or lachlan or zcorpan when they get back
  41. # [03:46] <Hixie> getTransform() has been considered before, yes
  42. # [03:47] <jacobolus> Hixie: anyway, given that their implementation is going to have to change incompatibly anyway, I don't think you should worry too much about changing the name
  43. # [03:47] <Hixie> didn't they change already?
  44. # [03:47] <jacobolus> oh did they?
  45. # [03:47] <jacobolus> I don't know
  46. # [03:48] <jacobolus> I haven't played with Opera's SSE stuff for a few months
  47. # [03:52] <jacobolus> Hixie: the bit of the spec that says “WebSocket objects must also implement the EventTarget interface.” implies that those objects will support AddEventListener w/ "open", "read", "close" as events, right? Or am I misunderstanding?
  48. # [03:54] <Hixie> yes
  49. # [03:54] <Hixie> you are not misunderstanding
  50. # [03:54] <jacobolus> okay, good. because that's what I told some other people :)
  51. # [03:56] <jacobolus> Hixie: mcarter was thinking about whether Orbited’s TCPSocket objects should support the same interface, and wondering what use cases would be for having multiple event listeners for a socket. I couldn’t think of any that were particularly compelling.
  52. # [03:57] <Hixie> i'm not aware of any use cases
  53. # [03:57] <Hixie> i just use the DOM Events mechanism wherever possible as a matter of course
  54. # [03:58] <Hixie> for consistency across the platform
  55. # [03:59] <jacobolus> yeah. that was the only argument I had for using the same interface :)
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  62. # [05:46] <Hixie> who is Alan and what is there to do about him?
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  64. # [05:56] <roc> A guy who posts a lot to www-style, who thinks error tolerance is a conspiracy
  65. # [06:03] <Hixie> ignore him
  66. # [06:03] <Hixie> :-)
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  104. # [09:31] <annevk> Hixie, since everything else changed we're more or less incompatible with the spec at this point anyway
  105. # [09:31] <Hixie> so it hasn't been updated then?
  106. # [09:31] <Hixie> k
  107. # [09:31] <annevk> Hixie, well, we're still compatible with the infrastructure, but I'm not sure if that's worth it
  108. # [09:32] <annevk> (infrastructure being the attachEventSource() stuff and <event-source>)
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  116. # [09:46] <annevk> apart from headers/methods optin Access Control is mostly fixed btw
  117. # [09:46] <annevk> well, my offline version
  118. # [09:46] <annevk> I've notes for headers/methods too and I'm stuck on naming :)
  119. # [09:47] * annevk always has bikeshed issues with himself when writing specs
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  130. # [10:35] <annevk> (where I said attachEventSource I meant addEventSource...)
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  139. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> Hixie: for r1848, there are a couple places where it seems like the only change made was to change the order of some citations -- "[RFC2109] [RFC2965]" instead of "[RFC2965] [RFC2109]"
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  142. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> wondering what the significance of that change is meant to be
  143. # [11:01] <Hixie> yes
  144. # [11:01] <Hixie> none, just wanted it in numerical order
  145. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> ah
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  147. # [11:06] <annevk> the checkin comment made it seems like more was happening
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  149. # [11:06] <annevk> I landed an initial version of the AC draft we agreed upon at the Seattle F2F: http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/
  150. # [11:07] <annevk> It doesn't have the headers/methods proposal included yet, though there are comments in the source regarding that
  151. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> annevk: cool. that was pretty fast work
  152. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> about that checkin, more did happen -
  153. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> http://people.w3.org/mike/diffs/html5/spec/Overview.1.1037.html#sandboxCookies
  154. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> just that it added "or later specifications" to "RFC 2109 section 4.3.4. or later specifications"
  155. # [11:10] <roc> is there any writeup about what happened at that meeting?
  156. # [11:10] <annevk> true
  157. # [11:12] <annevk> roc, http://www.w3.org/2008/07/01-wam-minutes.html and http://www.w3.org/2008/07/02-wam-minutes.html if you have W3C Member access
  158. # [11:12] <roc> thanks!
  159. # [11:13] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-wam-minutes.html seems to have even more limited rights, MikeSmith?
  160. # [11:13] <annevk> they should become public within a few weeks (hopefully less)
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  162. # [11:15] <hendry> is there a good resource for "onload events"? i've looked at a few different libraries and the browser specific hacks aside there seems a number of ways to do it: onload. window.load, DOMContentLoaded, document.readyState. I'm assuming here I should have the DOM ready for an AJAX call.
  163. # [11:16] <hendry> this is for a mobile AJAX test case: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2008/mobile-test/xmlhttprequest.js
  164. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> annevk: I just changed http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-wam-minutes.html to member-viewable
  165. # [11:17] <roc> schepers was there? huh
  166. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> roc: for me, it was particularly nice to finally meet Jonas Sicking
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  168. # [11:18] <annevk> 03 was the day we made descisions on all the drastic changes quite early in the morning
  169. # [11:18] <roc> he's a good man
  170. # [11:19] * annevk goes food shopping before falling asleep
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  172. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> roc: btw, I went to a FF3 release party here in Tokyo a couple weeks back. They showed a video with clips from a bunch of Mozilla developers talking about their favorite feature in FF3
  173. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> including you
  174. # [11:19] <roc> haha
  175. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> so that was cool too
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  177. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> Julien Chaffraix's started checking in code changes to support XBL2 in Webkit
  178. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> http://trac.webkit.org/search?q=jchaffraix
  179. # [11:30] <roc> how long were these AC meetings?
  180. # [11:30] <Hixie> theoretically 9-5 tuesday-thursday
  181. # [11:31] <Hixie> in practice, 1pm-5pm tuesday, 11pm-5pm wednesday, 11pm-5pm friday
  182. # [11:31] <Hixie> though everything after 3pm on friday seems to be missing from the minutes
  183. # [11:31] <Hixie> (which is unfortunate as i left at 3pm)
  184. # [11:31] <othermaciej> we adjourned around that point
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  188. # [11:45] <annevk> it's 11PM and not 11AM?
  189. # [11:45] <roc> I'm sure he meant 11am
  190. # [11:45] <Hixie> i meant am
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  192. # [11:48] <annevk> good, I already find it slightly quirky that it's 12PM for midday (iirc), but this would be even more odd
  193. # [11:49] <Hixie> the whole am/pm thing is silly imho
  194. # [11:49] <Hixie> what's wrong with 24h clocks
  195. # [11:49] <annevk> Europe generally uses 24h clocks for notation
  196. # [11:49] <annevk> well, the Netherlands :p
  197. # [11:50] <Hixie> i know, i'm european :-)
  198. # [11:53] <Lachy> Hixie, which country are you from originally?
  199. # [11:54] <Philip`> 11:59:59.999 is clearly AM, 12:00:00.001 is clearly PM, so it makes sense that 12:00:00.000 is PM because it shares most of its digits with nearby PM times
  200. # [11:54] <Hixie> switzerland
  201. # [11:54] <Hixie> hence the .ch
  202. # [11:54] <Lachy> ok
  203. # [11:57] <annevk> Philip`, true, I suppose I expect 0-11 rather than 12-11
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  209. # [12:50] <zcorpan> Philip`: do you know off-hand whether you have a tc in your testsuite that is equivalent to
  210. # [12:50] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%3EThere%20should%20be%20only%20one%20line%20below.%3C%2Fp%3E%0D%0A%3Ccanvas%3E%3C%2Fcanvas%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3E%0D%0Avar%20canvas%20%3D%20document.getElementsByTagName('canvas')%5B0%5D%3B%0D%0Avar%20g%20%3D%20canvas.getContext('2d')%3B%0D%0Ag.moveTo(0%2C%200)%3B%0D%0Ag.lineTo(100%2C%200)%3B%0D%0Ag.stroke()%3B%0D%0Ag.translate(0%2C%2050)%3B%09%09%0D%0Ag.stroke()
  211. # [12:50] <zcorpan> %3B%0D%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E
  212. # [12:50] <zcorpan> (uploaded)
  213. # [12:52] <zcorpan> http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/2d.path.transformation.changing.html ?
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  215. # [13:04] <Lachy> hey Hixie, what was the original reason for including XML form submission in WF2? Was that just because XForms submitted XML, and so we should allow that too?
  216. # [13:04] <Hixie> yeah
  217. # [13:05] <Lachy> ok, cause I'm thinking it should be dropped for offering no benefits over traditional submission methods
  218. # [13:08] <Hixie> yeah
  219. # [13:08] <Hixie> i agree
  220. # [13:22] <Philip`> zcorpan: http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/2d.path.transformation.multiple.html seems like that, only with fill instead of stroke - does that make a difference?
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  223. # [13:28] <zcorpan> Philip`: seems not.. though i guess it would be good to have both covered :)
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  228. # [14:48] <takkaria> heh, Alan Gresley seems like a very unproductive person to talk to
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  231. # [14:49] <takkaria> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0123.html
  232. # [14:53] <Philip`> "my dream is a one interoperable open web. This may mean that we don't have many implementors but just one. There is nothing to stop all of you working together on *one implementation*." - that's... not going to work
  233. # [14:54] <takkaria> I like the bit about wanting a world poll on whether browsers should accept invalid markup
  234. # [14:56] <Philip`> Asking people what they want is not a good way of finding what people want, so instead he perhaps could make a Firefox extension that makes your browser abort with an error message when there's any invalid markup, and see how popular it becomes
  235. # [14:58] <zcorpan> it might well become popular among people who use firefox for web development and not for browsing
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  238. # [15:23] <jcranmer> Hixie: you seen Wall-E yet?
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  253. # [17:44] <gsnedders> Philip`: any idea yet ?:P
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  256. # [17:52] <gsnedders_> yay! bad wi-fi!
  257. # [17:53] <Philip`> gsnedders_: Not entirely sure - it depends on whether anyone convinces me to feel guilty for leaving them to finish all the work :-)
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  259. # [17:53] <Philip`> (Bye)
  260. # [17:57] <Philip`> (I think there isn't much left for me to do so hopefully it should be fine this evening)
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  263. # [18:05] <gsnedders> Philip`: With the internet access this bad, just phone me at 6:45 at the latest if you can't make it :P
  264. # [18:06] <Philip`> gsnedders: Okay - I think it's reasonable to assume by default I will make it, so I'll just let you know if that's wrong
  265. # [18:06] <Philip`> gsnedders: (where "it" = 7pm outside King's, if I remember correctly)
  266. # [18:06] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yeah
  267. # [18:07] <gsnedders> Philip`: Then we can argue where to go from ther e:P
  268. # [18:07] <gsnedders> *there
  269. # [18:08] * Philip` hopes it won't start raining again
  270. # [18:08] <gsnedders> Oh, I doubt it will be as bad as it was in Ely earlier
  271. # [18:08] <Philip`> (My trousers are still slightly wet from two minutes outside four hours ago)
  272. # [18:09] <Philip`> s/wet/damp/
  273. # [18:10] <gsnedders> My trousers are dry, my hoodie is not
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  313. # [21:10] <annevk> still only 26 answers to the Web Forms thingy... I guess it's still early in the US
  314. # [21:11] <hober> 3 PM in Boston, noon in SF
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  317. # [21:12] <Hixie> jcranmer: yes
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  319. # [21:12] <jcranmer> ah, good :-)
  320. # [21:12] <annevk> hober, guess that explains why I feel weird too
  321. # [21:13] <hober> No responses from Apple, nor Mozilla
  322. # [21:13] * annevk arrived from Seattle in Amsterdam about 12 hours ago
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  324. # [21:14] <annevk> othermaciej, hey, maybe fill in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wfreq/ ...
  325. # [21:16] <Hixie> jcranmer: i saw it on opening day
  326. # [21:16] <jcranmer> ah
  327. # [21:16] <jcranmer> I saw it saturdayh
  328. # [21:17] <annevk> is it any good?
  329. # [21:17] <jcranmer> it's wonderful
  330. # [21:17] <annevk> k
  331. # [21:17] <Hixie> best movie of the year
  332. # [21:17] <Hixie> and this time it's not just me saying it :-)
  333. # [21:17] <annevk> you say that every year :p
  334. # [21:18] <jcranmer> one of Pixar's better films
  335. # [21:18] <annevk> oh ok, lol
  336. # [21:18] <Hixie> it got like 97% on rotten tomatoes
  337. # [21:18] <annevk> nice, it would be nice if you could just pay a little online, but it seems torrents is more effective
  338. # [21:19] <Hixie> you want to see this movie in the theatre
  339. # [21:21] <annevk> if it's really good, I suppose I could go to theatre as well
  340. # [21:21] <annevk> arrives here on July 30th :/
  341. # [21:21] <Hixie> ah
  342. # [21:21] <Hixie> that's sdumb
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  344. # [21:22] <Hixie> this thread in public-html is crazy
  345. # [21:22] <Hixie> so many people saying that specs are independent of reality
  346. # [21:23] <Hixie> do they not understand that if the spec is ignored then it's worthless?
  347. # [21:23] <jcranmer> not knowing any context, the only time what a spec says should differ from reality is if there is a later de-facto standard (e.g., news: URIs)
  348. # [21:27] <Hixie> or if the spec is broken in some (probably unforseen) way
  349. # [21:27] <Hixie> as with, e.g., http, uri, iri, html4, dom2, ...
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  380. # [23:15] <Windstoss> Is this what is supposed to happen?
  381. # [23:15] <Windstoss> var actives = document.getElementsByClassName('active')
  382. # [23:15] <Windstoss> actives.length, returns say 39
  383. # [23:16] <Windstoss> actives[0].deactivate(); (removes classNAme active)
  384. # [23:16] <Windstoss> actives.length, returns 38
  385. # [23:17] <Windstoss> It is different from what the Frameworks are doing if there is no native method?
  386. # [23:26] <Hixie> any opera people around?
  387. # [23:27] <Hixie> annevk, Lachy?
  388. # [23:28] <annevk> AM NOW
  389. # [23:28] <annevk> Windstoss, it's a live list, yes
  390. # [23:29] <annevk> Wall-E is indeed nice
  391. # [23:30] <annevk> Hixie, ^
  392. # [23:30] <Hixie> annevk: do you know who would be a good contact point at opera for worker thread stuff?
  393. # [23:31] <Windstoss> annevk: That is good to know. Sorry, if my question is a little offtopic… but how to iterate the live list when in one iteration you change the list (e.g. be removing a classname).
  394. # [23:33] <annevk> Hixie, I think bratell@opera.com would be a good start (cc me please)
  395. # [23:33] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@c-24-5-43-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  396. # [23:34] <annevk> Windstoss, you should probably avoid doing that :)
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  398. # [23:34] <Windstoss> annevk: yeah, I think, I learned it the hard way. Almost banged my head! So, copy to an array first is the "right" way?
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  400. # [23:35] <Windstoss> annevk: it feels messy?
  401. # [23:35] <annevk> kind of depends on what you want to do I suppose, most stuff in the DOM is live
  402. # [23:35] <Hixie> annevk: thanks
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  404. # [23:37] <Windstoss> Thanks… I'm off then.
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  406. # [23:38] <weinig> annevk: hey, quick question about the Selectors API
  407. # [23:38] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  408. # [23:38] <weinig> annevk: do you know what exception should be thrown if CSS3 Namespaces syntax is used in the selector string, and we don't support the NSResolver?
  409. # [23:38] <weinig> annevk: I assume just the regular old SYNTAX_ERR
  410. # [23:39] <annevk> Lachy is editing that spec now mostly
  411. # [23:40] <annevk> SYNTAX_ERR makes sense
  412. # [23:41] <weinig> annevk: ah
  413. # [23:41] <weinig> Lachy: do you agree?
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  416. # [23:45] <annevk> 400GB dics (readonly): http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp/content-view-38271-135.html
  417. # [23:46] <annevk> disc, duh
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  420. # Session Close: Tue Jul 08 00:00:00 2008

The end :)