/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-07-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jul 08 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:31] <Lachy> if weinig comes back and I'm not here, someone tell him that in answer to his question about selectors api, it's either a NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR (if an NSResolver is passed), or a NAMESPACE_ERR if it's not.
  10. # [00:31] <Lachy> Exactly as defined in the spec.
  11. # [00:32] <Lachy> or, can someone from apple pass on the message to him? othermaciej, maybe?
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  23. # [01:45] <annevk> with all this new gTLD stuff I'm glad most APIs are same-origin bound, rather than something else, though cookies remain problematic
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  26. # [01:49] <weinig_> Lachy: ping
  27. # [01:49] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  28. # [01:51] <annevk> http://forum.icann.org/lists/idn-cctld-fast-track/msg00020.html seems to be confused about ccTLD vs gTLD...
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  31. # [01:53] <Lachy> weinig, hi
  32. # [01:54] <Lachy> weinig, earlier, I said:
  33. # [01:54] <Lachy> [00:26] <Lachy> if weinig comes back and I'm not here, someone tell him that in answer to his question about selectors api, it's either a NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR (if an NSResolver is passed), or a NAMESPACE_ERR if it's not.
  34. # [01:55] <Lachy> [00:26] <Lachy> Exactly as defined in the spec.
  35. # [01:55] <weinig> Lachy: ah
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  37. # [01:55] <weinig> Lachy: thanks
  38. # [01:55] <Lachy> weinig, did you get a chance to take a look at the test suite framework I wrote for selectors api?
  39. # [01:55] <weinig> Lachy: I did a while ago
  40. # [01:56] <Lachy> I added a few more tests to it today as well
  41. # [01:56] <weinig> Lachy: I am going to look at more tonight :)
  42. # [01:56] <weinig> Lachy: awesome
  43. # [01:56] <Lachy> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2006/webapi/selectors-api-testsuite/
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  45. # [01:56] <Lachy> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api-testsuite/
  46. # [01:57] <Lachy> there's currently tests in test-implementation.js and test-queryselector-return-values.js. The rest are placeholder files, waiting for me to finish writing them
  47. # [01:58] <Lachy> I also need to make the framework automatically load and run each of them. at the moment, it's just hardcoded to load one of them
  48. # [01:58] <weinig> Lachy: ah, I was wondering if the framework just didn't work in Safari
  49. # [01:58] <Lachy> I've been testing it in webkit and opera, so it definitely works
  50. # [01:58] * weinig realizes once again he was looking at an old draft
  51. # [01:59] <Lachy> heh
  52. # [01:59] <Lachy> always look at the copy in CVS
  53. # [01:59] <weinig> Lachy: only for the last 5 minutes or so
  54. # [01:59] <weinig> Lachy: earlier today I had the correct one :)
  55. # [02:00] <Lachy> btw, the specific conformance criteria that cover your earlier question is this: "If the implementation does not support resolving namespaces, then when the nsesolver parameter is provided and it is not set to either null or undefined, the implementation must raise a NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR exception."
  56. # [02:01] * weinig nods
  57. # [02:01] <Lachy> and this ". When an unresolvable namespace is encountered, the implementation must raise a NAMESPACE_ERR exception"
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  59. # [02:01] <weinig> Lachy: I am not clear what that means for selectors like "|div" or "*|div"
  60. # [02:01] <weinig> Lachy: the second part
  61. # [02:02] <Lachy> oh, good question.
  62. # [02:02] <Lachy> send mail, I'll deal with it tomorrow.
  63. # [02:02] <Lachy> what do you think is the most sensible behaviour?
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  65. # [02:03] <weinig> Lachy: right now I have it implemented to treat both as if no | was there
  66. # [02:03] <weinig> Lachy: but I am not sure if that is the most sensible behavior
  67. # [02:03] * weinig will ponder this
  68. # [02:05] <Hixie> man, wtf is sam smoking
  69. # [02:05] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-24-5-43-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  70. # [02:06] <Hixie> (re http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/07/02/authoritative-true)
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  75. # [02:09] <Hixie> he defends microsoft unilaterally bypassing standards committees, he says i'm "self-appointed" then doesn't even correct himself when i point out i'm not...
  76. # [02:09] <Lachy> *|div should never require the implementation to resolve a namespace, so I suppose it should match even if the implementation doesn't support the NSResolver
  77. # [02:11] <Hixie> ...and at the end I don't even understand what point he's trying to make, and he defers to Julian whose point I also don't understand (and have already responded to showing the problems with it). Good times.
  78. # [02:13] <annevk> I think I did get it. His point is that he wants a way to force the browser to respect the Content-Type using some server trick
  79. # [02:14] <annevk> As you illustrated this is harder to achieve as we're closer to the equilibrium HTML5 defines, but he considers it to be an important feature
  80. # [02:16] <Lachy> in theory, it would be nice to have a way to tell the browser not to second guess what the server tells it, but I can understand the problems it will create when it inevitably fails.
  81. # [02:22] <Hixie> i'd love to be able to do it, but i can't see how to get there from here
  82. # [02:23] <Hixie> wishful thinking doesn't work
  83. # [02:23] <Hixie> and i don't see how that point really had anything to do with what you were responding to in his blog comments
  84. # [02:23] <Lachy> we may be forced to anyway, since IE is doing it. :-(
  85. # [02:23] <Hixie> what IE's doing will just introduce a second set of content-sniffing rules
  86. # [02:23] <Hixie> if we follow it
  87. # [02:23] <Hixie> note that IE isn't anywhere near as big an influence these days
  88. # [02:24] <Hixie> their market share is diminishing
  89. # [02:24] <roc> yeah
  90. # [02:24] <roc> I think we can hold the line
  91. # [02:24] <annevk> I hope other browsers won't follow so the platform stays a little bit simpler
  92. # [02:25] <annevk> there doesn't seem to be too much of a gain
  93. # [02:25] <annevk> (I wonder by the way if they'll always respect it or if in case of <img> / <script> / etc. it will still be ignored...)
  94. # [02:26] <Lachy> I guess we'll find out when beta2 is released, but it wouldn't hurt to ask them
  95. # [02:26] <Hixie> i wouldn't bet on them knowing :-)
  96. # [02:26] <Hixie> but go ahead :-)
  97. # [02:26] <Lachy> I wouldn't be surpised if they didn't even think about that case and just apply the same heuristics in such cases
  98. # [02:27] <Hixie> most people don't think to think about that case as sniffing, even
  99. # [02:27] <Hixie> those cases
  100. # [02:29] <Lachy> yeah, I guess
  101. # [02:30] <Hixie> i mean, nobody complained about <img> doing content sniffing
  102. # [02:30] <Hixie> even once we added the navigation algorithm and they complained about that, they still didn't mention <img> and <script>
  103. # [02:31] <Hixie> you know what tires me the most about sam and julian's whining is that they assume that just because i'm disagreeing with their proposals and ideas, that i disagree with their goals
  104. # [02:32] <Hixie> sam even went as far as to say i should speak to eric lawerence after we all spent three days at microsoft talking with that team
  105. # [02:32] <Hixie> like hello
  106. # [02:32] <Hixie> please at least assume i'm trying to do my job right, even if you don't agree with my conclusions
  107. # [02:33] <annevk> what would be the fun in that?
  108. # [02:38] <othermaciej> Hixie: maybe if you stopped doing everything wrong, people would stop complaining
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  110. # [02:38] <Hixie> i wish i knew what i was doing wrong!
  111. # [02:39] <Philip`> Hixie: maybe if you stopped doing everything, people would stop complaining
  112. # [02:40] <Philip`> although I suppose then they'd complain that nobody was doing anything, so that strategy wouldn't work
  113. # [02:40] <Hixie> indeed
  114. # [02:41] <Hixie> good chance i'd lose my cushy job at google, too :-P
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  116. # [02:43] <Lachy> putting up with complaints while working in a cushy job is a reasonable trade off.
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  122. # [03:20] <weinig> Lachy: in the Selectors test suite, in test-queryselector-return-values.js, var doc = document.getElementsByTagName("iframe")[0] should probably read var doc = document.getElementsByTagName("iframe")[0].contentDocument
  123. # [03:23] <annevk> var doc = frames[0].document
  124. # [03:27] <weinig> that could work too
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  132. # [04:48] <jacobolus1> does anyone here know the limits of the iPhone's canvas implementation?
  133. # [04:48] * jacobolus1 is now known as jacobolus
  134. # [04:49] <jacobolus> it doesn't seem to like various things I draw which work perfectly well in safari 2 and safari 3 both
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  139. # [05:40] <jacobolus> Hixie, Philip` : heh. I didn't realize that released versions of safari 3, including the browser on the iPhone, do transformations the way Opera does (but now the webkit trunk is back to doing it per the updated spec, and the safari 2/gecko implementations)
  140. # [05:40] <jacobolus> very annoying :/
  141. # [05:41] <jacobolus> it means I have to rewrite all the graphics code for this little multiplayer browser game :/
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  176. # [11:24] <Hixie> if gsnedders was here i'd ask him if he'd tested to see if browsers supported comments in http headers
  177. # [11:24] <Hixie> like in Content-Type values
  178. # [11:24] <Hixie> same with servers, for that matter
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  194. # [12:48] <Windstoss> Can nav elements be nested? Is this the way to go to markup a sub-navigation?
  195. # [12:52] <Lachy> Windstoss, there's nothing preventing them from being nested
  196. # [12:53] <Lachy> But, navigation is typically marked up as nested lists within the nav element.
  197. # [12:54] <Lachy> e.g. <nav><ul><li>Foo</li><li>Bar <ul><li>Sub navigation</li></ul></li></ul></nav>
  198. # [12:54] <Windstoss> Lachy: yeah, that seems to be more reasonable… thanks.
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  201. # [13:52] <annevk> http://blog.karppinen.fi/2008/07/apple-just-gave-out-my-apple-i.html :o
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  204. # [14:07] <Philip`> Why are so many Google people blogging about Protocol Buffers?
  205. # [14:07] <Philip`> I don't quite see what's new or interesting about them
  206. # [14:11] <zcorpan> annevk: maybe one should try the same trick on other places, sending a password request from a different email for one's own account to see if they give it out
  207. # [14:13] <othermaciej> it looks like XML-RPC, without the XML
  208. # [14:15] <Philip`> i.e. RPC? :-)
  209. # [14:17] <Philip`> Converting hierarchical data structures to a self-describing binary format doesn't seem like a new idea
  210. # [14:22] <othermaciej> nor is a message format metalanguage that can compile to programming language stubs particularly new
  211. # [14:54] <annevk> othermaciej, where is toolbar.visible exposed?
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  213. # [15:02] <annevk> ah, it's on Window
  214. # [15:02] <annevk> supposedly
  215. # [15:03] <othermaciej> yeah
  216. # [15:04] <othermaciej> I totally forgot about it
  217. # [15:04] <othermaciej> then I started thinking, "browsers already expose some UI details via the window.open parameter string"
  218. # [15:04] <othermaciej> then I remembered that there are properties on Window for some of those things too
  219. # [15:04] <othermaciej> only problem with the BarInfo objects is lack of change notification, in case you care
  220. # [15:05] <annevk> I suppose that HTML could define something for that
  221. # [15:06] <annevk> if we decide to go down this route
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  227. # [15:37] <zcorpan> Philip`: you know whether in http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Ccanvas%3E.%3C%2Fcanvas%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3E%0D%0Awith(document.body.firstChild.getContext('2d'))%7B%0D%0AlineWidth%20%3D%2050%3B%0D%0AbeginPath()%3B%0D%0AmoveTo(50%2C%2024)%3B%0D%0AlineTo(50%2C%2025)%3B%0D%0AlineTo(50%2C%2026)%3B%0D%0AclosePath()%3B%0D%0Astroke()%3B%0D%0A%7D%0D%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E there should be one (opera/safari) or two (firefox) lines?
  228. # [15:38] <zcorpan> (based on your 2d.line.union testcase)
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  231. # [15:42] <Philip`> zcorpan: I believe it's undefined according to the spec
  232. # [15:43] <zcorpan> should it be? :)
  233. # [15:46] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1216-ipbf601marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  234. # [15:46] <Philip`> zcorpan: (In that test case I assumed it'd be equivalent to drawing one straight line, then drawing another unioned on top of it (rather than doing any non-zero-winding stuff); so in your example that should give one line)
  235. # [15:55] <Philip`> zcorpan: I suppose it'd be nice if stroke rendering was defined, but I imagine it'd be non-trivial to do so
  236. # [15:56] <Philip`> (and non-trivial to make implementations follow it in all the edge cases)
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  241. # [16:23] <annevk> Did anyone test if the HTML5 definition of URLs is implemented by browsers for CSS and HTTP Location as well?
  242. # [16:23] <annevk> (both for parts affected by encoding and parts that are not)
  243. # [16:24] <annevk> I suppose I should look at Hixie's tests
  244. # [16:26] <annevk> doesn't appear to be covered
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  246. # [17:12] <annevk> Hmm, so the IRI spec is modified for XML, but not HTML et all...
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  253. # [18:13] <annevk> haha: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/07/02/authoritative-true#c1215531501
  254. # [18:15] * zcorpan notes that all browsers fail http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/2d.path.stroke.prune.arc.html
  255. # [18:16] <annevk> Firefox and Opera fail in the same way
  256. # [18:16] <zcorpan> not quite
  257. # [18:17] <annevk> true
  258. # [18:18] <philipj> the canvas arc spec is quite impossible to read (and understand)
  259. # [18:18] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Ccanvas%20height%3D300%3E.%3C%2Fcanvas%3E%0A%3Cscript%3E%0Awith(document.body.firstChild.getContext(%272d%27)){%0AfillStyle%20%3D%20%27%23fff%27%3B%0AfillRect(0%2C%200%2C%20300%2C%20300)%3B%0AlineWidth%20%3D%20100%3B%0AlineCap%20%3D%20%27round%27%3B%0AlineJoin%20%3D%20%27round%27%3B%0AbeginPath()%3B%0AmoveTo(50%2C%2075)%3B%0AarcTo(50%2C%2075%2C%20150%2C%2075%2C%20110)%3B%0Astroke()%3B%0Abeg
  260. # [18:18] <zcorpan> inPath()%3B%0AmoveTo(50%2C%20200)%3B%0Aarc(50%2C%20200%2C%20110%2C%200%2C%200%2C%20false)%3B%0Astroke()%3B%0A}%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E
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  282. # [20:08] * jgraham wonders if Chris Wilson is serious that Microsoft will not change the authorative=True behaviour even if it costs them marketshare
  283. # [20:09] <annevk> other posts seemed to indicate that this was primarily for intranet sites
  284. # [20:09] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  285. # [20:10] <annevk> so maybe it will be tied to IE=8 or something
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  287. # [20:17] <takkaria> I think that feed sniffing will have to be done regardless
  288. # [20:17] <takkaria> since independent feed readers often don't check content-type at all
  289. # [20:18] <takkaria> I wonder when the IE team will learn that unilateral extensions leave everyone with a bad taste in their mouth, though...
  290. # [20:18] <takkaria> or equally, if they will
  291. # [20:18] <Dashiva> I notice Kris managed to put both @whatwg.org and @lists.whatwg.org in the CC. Fun :)
  292. # [20:19] <takkaria> ah, that explains the dup messages
  293. # [20:19] <annevk> yeah :/
  294. # [20:19] <annevk> that has happened before
  295. # [20:20] <annevk> ideally the lists.whatwg.org just bounced
  296. # [20:20] <annevk> s/bounced/bounces/
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  298. # [20:21] <zcorpan> what's up with validator.nu?
  299. # [20:26] * Joins: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  300. # [20:26] <annevk> hsivonen, validator.nu is down :/
  301. # [20:33] <Dashiva> Ideally the mailer would realize "Hey, the list already got this message-id"
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  309. # [21:13] <annevk> Dashiva, true
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  311. # [21:14] <annevk> Dashiva, though there's no real reason to have two lists e-mail addresses in the first place
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  315. # [21:45] <Dashiva> annevk: Also true
  316. # [21:46] <annevk> meh
  317. # [21:46] <annevk> alright, did access control
  318. # [21:46] <annevk> I suppose I should fix XMLHttpRequest next
  319. # [21:54] <zcorpan> hsivonen: if you're going to include an option for warning about inferred tags, are you going to include an option to check for indentation style, consistent attribute quoting, consistency between > vs /> etc?
  320. # [21:55] <annevk> hsivonen, the Access Control for Cross-Site Requests specification changed in a way that affects your implementation
  321. # [21:56] <annevk> hsivonen, if don't need custom headers and methods other than GET/POST you can even get away with not having OPTIONS at all
  322. # [21:56] <annevk> hsivonen, I'd file a bug if I had an account or if it accepted id.annevankesteren.nl as account :)
  323. # [21:58] <zcorpan> hsivonen: perhaps as a non-schema checker URL with query parameters, lintchecks?quotes=any&voidslash=no
  324. # [21:59] <annevk> identation style seems less of a concern than requiring attribute quotes (regardless of ' vs ") and requiring no inferred tags and something with the void slash
  325. # [22:00] <annevk> attribute quotes and inferrred tags seems the biggest concern
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  327. # [22:01] <zcorpan> that's just because people are used to what xhtml validation provides
  328. # [22:02] <zcorpan> doesn't mean that what xhtml validation provides is as good as it can get. ideally you should be able to check against a style guide
  329. # [22:04] <annevk> i didn't disagree with that, as you might have read :)
  330. # [22:07] * Parts: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.60.170) ("Konversation terminated!")
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  335. # [22:46] <zcorpan> hsivonen: something like http://simon.html5.org/dump/lint-checks.html
  336. # [22:48] <zcorpan> not sure about indentation style
  337. # [22:50] <annevk> the check boxes don't make much sense
  338. # [22:51] <zcorpan> why not?
  339. # [22:52] <annevk> actually, I guess they do
  340. # [22:52] <zcorpan> checked means it's allowed
  341. # [22:53] <zcorpan> although i guess you'd have to allow at least one of single and double quoted
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  343. # [22:54] <zcorpan> unless you want to write alt=Hello&#x20;world
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  353. # [23:35] <zcorpan> perhaps it's harder to check for presence of optional tags and perhaps few people would want to check for that anyway (cost-benefit)
  354. # [23:36] <zcorpan> i mean warn if optional tags are present
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  362. # Session Close: Wed Jul 09 00:00:00 2008

The end :)