/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-07-10 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Jul 10 00:00:00 2008
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] <JohnResig> Lachy: huh
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# [00:06] <Hixie> MikeSmith: what do you want that section to say? The main reason i haven't written it is i don't know what it should say, really
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# [00:09] <MikeSmith> Hixie: to say at least what you mention in your editorial note that it will cover
# [00:10] <Hixie> do you think it should say those things?
# [00:10] <Hixie> i'm undecided
# [00:10] <MikeSmith> Hixie: mostly because of the x-refs to it
# [00:11] <Hixie> yeah
# [00:11] <MikeSmith> btw, r1857 seems to have broken styling of the editorial notes in the W3C version
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# [00:11] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/#fetching
# [00:11] <Hixie> ok, i'll file a bug on myself seeing what i can do about fetching
# [00:11] <MikeSmith> Hixie: cool
# [00:11] <Hixie> yes, i removed the <style> block after noticing that the pubrules said i shouldn't have one
# [00:12] <Hixie> is there some class i should use for notes in w3c docs?
# [00:12] <MikeSmith> for the Publication Notes, I just use an embedded <style> block
# [00:12] <MikeSmith> pubrules doesn't actually seem to complain about it
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# [00:12] <annevk> I use <style> too for a lot of specs
# [00:13] <MikeSmith> and no person has
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# [00:13] <MikeSmith> Hixie: so I'd suggest just restoring the <style>
# [00:13] <annevk> Hixie, websocket-allow-origin, meh, now it's back on my plate :p
# [00:14] <Hixie> it was a pretty big <style> block
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# [00:15] <Hixie> i'd rather just use the classes w3c provides, i mean, it would be more in line with the intent of the pubrules
# [00:16] <MikeSmith> true
# [00:16] <MikeSmith> I'll look at the stock stylesheets right now and see what they provide
# [00:16] <Hixie> ok
# [00:16] <Hixie> i have to go to work, i'll be back in a bit
# [00:16] <MikeSmith> Hixie: btw, also on my wish list is a definition for "a document's address" (XXXDOCURL flagged stuff)
# [00:17] <MikeSmith> though there are not x-refs for that now, so less need
# [00:17] <Hixie> yeah i've even less idea what to do about that one
# [00:17] <MikeSmith> yeah, I know you mentioned that before
# [00:17] <MikeSmith> anyway, ttl
# [00:17] <Hixie> later
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# [00:33] <MikeSmith> I so far find jack in the StyleSheets/TR/ stylesheets as far as class values for marking up notes of any kind
# [00:34] <MikeSmith> they really quite basic
# [00:36] <MikeSmith> would that we had something like, say, and <aside> element or something
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# [03:16] <Hixie> where should i mail comments about the workers spec
# [03:16] <Hixie> public-html, whatwg, or public-webapps?
# [03:24] <MikeSmith> Hixie: public-html + whatwg would seem appropriate to me at least
# [03:25] <MikeSmith> though I'd think that at this point more feedback would likely come back from the whatwg list than from public-html
# [03:25] <Hixie> k
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# [03:35] <Hixie> ok, mailed whatwg and public-html
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# [04:15] <Hixie> ok bbl. food.
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# [06:50] <annevk> lol, Mozilla is changing their mind on POST again?!
# [06:50] * annevk sighs
# [06:59] <roc> hmm?
# [07:00] <roc> if you're talking about Jonas' last message to whatwg, he's not talking about AC, right?
# [07:01] <annevk> this message: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/0069.html
# [07:01] <annevk> but I'm a bit grumpy since I woke up early
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# [07:04] <roc> I'm grumpy because there are things I want Jonas to be doing other than wrangling cross-domain specs
# [07:06] <annevk> as far as the actual Flash documentation is concerned, it seems that pretty much anything goes
# [07:06] <annevk> including arbitrary headers apart from a certain subset
# [07:07] <annevk> (similar headers to those that are blocked in XMLHttpRequest)
# [07:12] <MikeSmith> I think Jonas is already convinced. seems like he just needs something data to take back to others
# [07:12] <MikeSmith> preferably something succinct
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# [09:04] <annevk> http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?p=687 is pretty good
# [09:16] <takkaria> Alan Gresley posted there, heh
# [09:16] <takkaria> s/posted/commented/ perhaps
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# [09:17] <annevk> I don't really follow that guy
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# [09:50] <takkaria> mozilla landed initial <video> support yesterday, it seems
# [09:50] <takkaria> though not turned on by default
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# [10:02] <Lachy> http://standardssuck.org/the-test-suite-is-not-enough
# [10:11] <Lachy> Hixie, this NodeList.toArray() seems like something for DOM5, not HTML5 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5851
# [10:12] <Lachy> but it's definitely needed. I think i suggested it somewhere once too, or if not, I know I at least thought about it.
# [10:12] <Hixie> yeah I just wanted to turn one of my e-mails into something more specific
# [10:12] <Hixie> (originally i just had an e-mail saying "look at this blog entry")
# [10:12] <Lachy> ok
# [10:12] <Hixie> (but that was the only thing actionable from that list)
# [10:13] <Hixie> i wish webidl (heycam) and dom core (zcorpan) and other specs (lachy, annevk) used bugzilla
# [10:14] <Hixie> then i could bounce these bugs to other people and know they were not lost
# [10:14] <Lachy> sure, that could work.
# [10:15] <Lachy> I'll speak to chaals about setting up a webapps product and then you can move all the stuff to that and assign to the right person.
# [10:15] <Hixie> that would be sweet
# [10:16] <Lachy> I just don't know when I'll be able to speak to him, I don't know where he is and he still hasn't responded to a mail I sent him last week
# [10:18] <Hixie> just post it to the public-webapps list and have mike or doug do it :-)
# [10:18] <Hixie> i'm sure chaals wouldn't mind, it's not like it affects the group really
# [10:19] <Hixie> it's up to the editors how they track issues, after all
# [10:19] <Lachy> ok, maybe later.
# [10:19] <Lachy> I gotta get ready and go to work now
# [10:21] <takkaria> looks public-html-bugzilla hasn't recieved new posts for a while
# [10:21] <takkaria> oh, no, that's just me looking at the June archive page
# [10:21] <Lachy> takkaria, sure it has.
# [10:21] <Lachy> oh
# [10:21] <gDashiva> I do that every month change
# [10:22] <gDashiva> "man, traffic sure died down"
# [10:22] <Hixie> use /latest as your bookmark
# [10:22] <Lachy> gDashiva, just bookmark /public-html-bugzilla/latest and you don't have the problem
# [10:22] <gDashiva> I don't use bookmarks, I keep open tabs
# [10:22] <Hixie> wow, my browsers aren't stable enough for that
# [10:22] <Lachy> or just keep that in your autocomplete history then
# [10:22] * Hixie uses http://☺.damowmow.com/
# [10:23] <Lachy> gDashiva, how many tabs do you keep open?
# [10:23] <gDashiva> Want me to count?
# [10:23] <Lachy> just a rough guess
# [10:23] <Hixie> i wonder how long i should wait for microsoft to get back to me on their needs for workers
# [10:24] <gDashiva> 12+41+10 over three opera windows, and five in firefox
# [10:24] <Lachy> Hixie, knowing MS, you could be waiting months.
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# [10:24] <Lachy> woah. I hate having more than 6, and when I get to about 10 I start closing old ones
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# [10:25] <Lachy> how do you find anything efficiently with that many tabs?
# [10:25] <annevk> then I'd have to create a W3C bugzilla account
# [10:25] <gDashiva> Lachy: window panel
# [10:25] <Lachy> If I want to look at a page again, I just start typing it's url or, if I can't remember that, something from the title and it shows up quickly enough
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# [11:27] <takkaria> has anyone done a useful explanitory diagram of the adoption agency algorithm yet?
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# [11:27] <takkaria> because if not, I'm in the process of making one and I could be persuaded to turn it into an svg or something
# [11:35] <Lachy> Hixie, MikeSmith set up the WebApps WG product in bugzilla, so you can start assiging us bugs
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# [11:50] <jgraham> takkaria: Not as far as I know and please :)
# [11:52] <jgraham> Hixie: I think refering to workers as "threads" is going to cause a lot of messages asking where the lock features are. Better to call them worker "microprocesses" or somthing that makes their shared-nothing nature more explicit (plus this will also make you look more trendy and down with the kids ;) )
# [11:53] <takkaria> Shared-Nothing Web Worker Threads abbreviated nicely
# [11:54] <takkaria> abbreviates, even
# [11:56] <Lachy> SNWWT? That's a terrible abbreviation.
# [11:56] <jgraham> I was assuming irony
# [11:57] <Lachy> although, given the W3C's track record for coming up with abbreviations, it's not too bad
# [11:58] <Lachy> I think we need a name with a recursive algorithm
# [11:58] <Lachy> *acronym
# [11:59] <Lachy> but something more creative than PHP's lame attempt with "PHP Hypertext Processor"
# [12:05] <takkaria> you could redefine WHATWG to be "WHATTF's Hypertext Application Technology Working Group" and WHATTF to be "WHATWG's Hypertext Application Technology Task Force"
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# [12:11] <gDashiva> Lachy: You preferred Personal Homepage?
# [12:16] <Lachy> gDashiva, what?
# [12:16] <Lachy> takkaria, nice :-)
# [12:18] <takkaria> rename WHATWG to Web HATWG, too, since we like having "Web" in things, and I like hats
# [12:18] <gDashiva> Lachy: That was the original meaning of php, until they retconned it
# [12:20] <Lachy> takkaria, the Web Hat WG sounds interesting.
# [12:20] <Lachy> for all those geeky people that wear hats with web stuff on them
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# [12:32] <zcorpan_> Philip`: was 2d.imageData.get.smallest.html intentionally removed or replaced by something else?
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# [12:40] <MikeSmith> Lachy: so what do you need bugzilla for that you can't do with the existing group Tracker?
# [12:41] <Lachy> MikeSmith, bugzilla is a better than the group tracker
# [12:41] <MikeSmith> in what ways?
# [12:41] <Lachy> also, Hixie suggested it so that he could easily reassign some of the issues from old WHATWG discussions to us for dealing with in WebApps
# [12:42] <MikeSmith> ah
# [12:42] <Lachy> like, for instance, bug 5851
# [12:42] <Lachy> Hixie will probably reassign that to zcorpan_ for adding to DOM5
# [12:43] <zcorpan_> cool i need a central place for my dom5 issues
# [12:43] <zcorpan_> right now i have notes all over the place
# [12:43] <MikeSmith> well, the main unique thing about bugzilla is that public people (not members of the WG) can use it to raise and track issues
# [12:44] <MikeSmith> or public people can opt-in to particular issues by adding themselves to the Cc list
# [12:44] <MikeSmith> cherry-pick which issues they want to follow
# [12:45] <MikeSmith> Adam Barth has done that with a couple HTML WG bugzilla issues so far
# [12:45] <MikeSmith> I suspect we will see more of that
# [12:46] <MikeSmith> Lachy: bug 5841 from what system?
# [12:48] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5851
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# [13:10] <zcorpan_> Philip`: in 2d.path.clip.unaffected.html is the first lineTo supposed to be moveTo?
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# [14:52] <Lachy> in WF2, I wonder if the validity requirements for type=url should be changed to refer to URL definition in HTML5 after it's incorporated into the main spec, instead of referring directly to the RFC
# [14:58] <takkaria> seems sensible
# [14:58] <takkaria> though you might want something looser than that, e.g. allowing spaces
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# [16:14] <Lachy> grr. I may have to give in and define a feature string for selectors api, even though I really don't want to.
# [16:15] <Lachy> annevk, zcorpan_, Hixie: any opinions on the matter? See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/0085.html
# [16:15] <Lachy> othermaciej, ^
# [16:16] <Lachy> ah, weinig's here too.
# [16:27] <gDashiva> Lachy: Use web hats
# [16:28] <Lachy> gDashiva, how does that help?
# [16:29] <gDashiva> In the string :)
# [16:29] <Lachy> btw, your new nickname is annoying cause I keep typing "gs<tab>" instead of "gd<tab>". I preferred it when I could type "da<tab>"
# [16:30] <Lachy> oh. hasFeature("web hats", "2.0")?
# [16:33] <Lachy> maybe I should use hasFeature("select-a-pie", "3.141592653589793238462643383279502");
# [16:33] <gDashiva> Yes, like that
# [16:33] <gDashiva> Or maybe hasFeature("web hats", "selector hat")
# [16:34] <Lachy> the second param needs to be a version number
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# [16:34] <takkaria> selector hat 3. :)
# [16:34] <gDashiva> Does it allow complex numbers?
# [16:35] <Lachy> I'm not sure
# [16:35] <gDashiva> I'm not of much help then
# [16:37] <gDashiva> Did anyone ever make a response to the "What about an implementation that supports 95%" scenario?
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# [16:45] <Lachy> don't remember
# [16:46] <Lachy> returning true for hasFeature doesn't really mean that it fully supports the API in practice. It only means that the implementation is claiming support, despite having known bugs
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# [16:47] <Lachy> although exactly where an implementation draws the line between total experimental support (returning false) and pretty good support (returning true) is up the implementation and varies significantly in practice
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# [18:18] <Hixie> othermaciej: if you define a set that has to be supported, define it as the complete set
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# [18:51] <gsnedders> Hixie: Can you fix all these DuplicateTermExceptions I'm getting? :P
# [18:53] <gsnedders> Hixie: http://hg.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/ if you want to just download it and run it to find the terms that cause it
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# [19:17] <Lachy> gsnedders, how do I use your spec generator?
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# [19:18] <Lachy> what does setup.py do? Does that install the script or something?
# [19:18] <gsnedders> Lachy: Install it in the normal python way (python setup.py install), then see the spec-gen program it installs
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# [19:18] <Lachy> ok
# [19:18] <Lachy> then how do I use it after it's installed?
# [19:18] <gsnedders> Lachy: spec-gen --help :)
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# [19:20] <Lachy> gsnedders, I get an error
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# [19:20] <gsnedders> Lachy: what?
# [19:20] <Lachy> $ spec-gen --help
# [19:20] <Lachy> Traceback (most recent call last):
# [19:20] <Lachy> File "/usr/local/bin/spec-gen", line 11, in <module>
# [19:20] <Lachy> from specGen import generator
# [19:20] <Lachy> File "/Library/Python/2.5/site-packages/specGen/generator.py", line 26, in <module>
# [19:20] <Lachy> from lxml import etree
# [19:20] <Lachy> ImportError: No module named lxml
# [19:20] <gsnedders> Lachy: Ah, you need to install lxml
# [19:20] <Lachy> how?
# [19:21] <gsnedders> http://codespeak.net/lxml/installation.html
# [19:21] <jgraham> easy_install lxml
# [19:21] <jgraham> But you need to instally easy_install first :)
# [19:21] <gsnedders> (yeah, it's rather obvious that the spec-gen is pre-alpha software)
# [19:21] <jgraham> (Unless it is already installed)
# [19:21] <jgraham> Lachy: I suggest you google ez_setup.py
# [19:22] <jgraham> Then run that (maybe with sudo) to install easy_install
# [19:22] <jgraham> Then do "easy_install lxml"
# [19:22] <takkaria> jgraham: cheers for the online parse tree viewer, btw, it's been very useful in constructing testcases
# [19:22] <jgraham> takkaria: np
# [19:23] <Lachy> I ran easy_install and tried, but failed
# [19:23] <Lachy> src/lxml/lxml.etree.c: At top level:
# [19:23] <Lachy> src/lxml/lxml.etree.c:110954: error: invalid application of ‘sizeof’ to incomplete type ‘struct __pyx_obj_4lxml_5etree__ParserSchemaValidationContext’
# [19:23] <Lachy> lipo: can't open input file: /var/folders/hO/hOi6uidEGwKsuLgkSfspM++++TI/-Tmp-//ccXmNL9v.out (No such file or directory)
# [19:23] <Lachy> error: Setup script exited with error: command 'gcc' failed with exit status 1
# [19:24] <jcranmer> someones relying on a declaration where a definition is needed
# [19:24] <jgraham> hmm... it looks like it can't find all your headers. I think I have heard of this on OS X before...
# [19:24] <jcranmer> or more likely, someone neglected the declaration altogether and it was inferred by another declartion
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# [19:25] <jgraham> http://blog.offbytwo.com/2008/05/07/installing-lxml-on-os-x-leopard/ - I followed those instructions last time I think
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# [19:25] <gsnedders> easy_install worked fine for me last night
# [19:26] <Lachy> sudo port install py25-lxml should work for me
# [19:26] <Lachy> that's the mac port, apparently
# [19:26] <jgraham> Lachy: I guess that would work too
# [19:26] <jgraham> gsnedders: Did you ever find a good problem for learning Haskell?
# [19:27] <Lachy> I wonder why the libraries in OS X are so outdated
# [19:27] <Lachy> that sucks
# [19:27] <gsnedders> jgraham: no
# [19:27] <gsnedders> Lachy: Because, IIRC, they're frozen when it reaches RC (which is around a year ago now for LeoparD)
# [19:28] <gsnedders> *Leopard
# [19:28] <gsnedders> Lachy: were you running easy_install with superuser perms?
# [19:29] <gsnedders> Lachy: You need lxml and html5lib installed
# [19:29] <jgraham> gsnedders: You could try porting a sudoku solver to haskell. http://norvig.com/sudoku.html seems quite interesting in terms of how it works even if at the end you only have a sudoku solver to show for it
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# [19:31] <Lachy> gsnedders, no
# [19:31] <Lachy> I may have to update my html5lib installation
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# [19:32] <gsnedders> I don't think it _needs_ a recent version. It's just 0.11 is far quicker than any previous version
# [19:32] <Lachy> I may not have it installed. I can't remember if I did it before or after the last time I wiped my machine
# [19:32] <gsnedders> 1.494s to run the spec-gen on an XML copy of HTML 5, and serialising back to XML
# [19:36] <Lachy> ok, that mac port finished installing. Now I'm running sudo easy_install lxml
# [19:36] <Lachy> and I also installed html5lib quite easily
# [19:37] <Lachy> now spec-gen --help works
# [19:37] <Hixie> gsnedders: what are the duplicate terms? (got any examples?)
# [19:37] <gsnedders> Hixie: Well, it's a fatal error and stops at the first: attr-meta-http-equiv
# [19:38] <gsnedders> Lachy: try running the test cases (python runtests.py)
# [19:38] * Hixie looks at the spec
# [19:38] <Lachy> This is useful help for this option: --sanitize sanitize
# [19:38] <gsnedders> Lachy: That's copied verbatim from html5lib's parse.py :P
# [19:39] <Lachy> oh, well I should complain to jgraham or annevk about that
# [19:39] <gsnedders> rubys I expect wrote that, but I'm not sure
# [19:40] <Hixie> gsnedders: fixed it
# [19:42] <gsnedders> Now, let me go help my sister with supper
# [19:49] <Lachy> can html5lib be used from the command line directly like spec-gen can, or only within other python scripts?
# [19:50] <Lachy> e.g. to quickly parse a document and see if it reports any parsing errors?
# [19:52] <Lachy> gsnedders, could the command be renamed to specgen? The hyphen makes typing it slower
# [19:53] <Lachy> gsnedders, I need it to support the automatic bibliographic references that the CSSWG postprocessor does
# [19:55] <Lachy> if you can access it, the post processor uses this data file http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css3-src/biblio.ref
# [19:55] <Lachy> it might be member only, though
# [19:57] <Lachy> gsnedders, ... needs to be supported to. It's supposed to replace that with boilerplate status text
# [19:58] <Lachy> oh, and the [[REFERENCE]] and [[!REFERENCE]] syntax too
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# [20:09] <gsnedders> Lachy: I don't really want to rename, but I guess I could
# [20:09] <gsnedders> Lachy: I don't want to support those bibliography references
# [20:09] <gsnedders> Lachy: No, I can't access that
# [20:09] <jgraham> Lachy: parse.py allows html5lib to be run from the command line
# [20:10] <gsnedders> Lachy: There are no substitutions done yet :P
# [20:11] <gsnedders> (I'd quick like to use BibTeX for bibliographies)
# [20:12] <Lachy> jgraham, that would mean I need to keep a copy of parse.py in same directory and run ./parse.py. Is there a way I can set it up so I can just run it from within any directory at any time?
# [20:13] <Lachy> gsnedders, I don't care how you do the references. I just want a quick and easy way for me to insert a reference using something like [[REFERENCE]] in the source, and have everything else automatically generated.
# [20:13] <gsnedders> Lachy: I guess the identifier needs to be in the database?
# [20:13] <Lachy> the css post process adds all the necessary <a href='...'><cite>...</cite></a> stuff around that and generates the appropriate rerference at the end of the page forme
# [20:14] <Lachy> gsnedders, yeah
# [20:17] <gsnedders> I guess seeming you can't actually change the file it uses in the real one what format my one uses is irrelevant
# [20:21] <jgraham> Lachy: Just use a symlink like ln -s ~/bin/htmlparse /path/to/parse.py
# [20:22] <Lachy> jgraham, ok. I'll have to find a suitable place to store parse.py then.
# [20:23] <jgraham> Er, I think I got that the wrong way round; /path/to/parse.py should be before the link name
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# [20:25] <Lachy> ok. I'll look up the man page before I do it to be sure
# [20:25] <Lachy> but I always get it backwards when I run it anyway :-)
# [20:25] <jgraham> And it seems like OSX doesn't have ~/bin on the default path
# [20:26] <Lachy> no, it has /usr/bin/ I think
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# [20:34] <gsnedders> Hixie: specGen.processes.xref.DuplicateTermException: canvaspattern
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# [20:38] <tusho> any docs for html5lib ruby?
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# [20:55] <tusho> huh
# [20:55] <tusho> RuntimeError: Unknown TreeWalker dom
# [20:56] <jgraham> tusho: I don't think there are any specifically
# [20:56] <tusho> still what about the above
# [20:56] * jgraham doesn't know ruby
# [20:56] <tusho> don't see why that would happen
# [20:56] <jgraham> When did that happen?
# [20:56] <Hixie> gsnedders: fixed
# [20:56] <jgraham> i.e. what did you call?
# [20:56] <tusho> HTML5::TreeWalkers.get_tree_walker('dom')
# [20:58] <jgraham> tusho: DOM doesn't seem to be an option. You can have REXML, Hpricot or SimpleTree
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# [20:58] <tusho> Oh, I see.
# [20:59] <tusho> I'll pick Hpricot, I like hpricot
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# [21:08] <tusho> Hmph.
# [21:08] <tusho> The hpricot isn't very useful. No searching stuff.
# [21:08] <tusho> :|
# [21:12] <jgraham> tusho: What are you trying to do?
# [21:13] <tusho> Move all hN tags down M levels.
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# [21:13] <tusho> So if '2', h1 -> h3, etc, and h4-h6 -> h6
# [21:15] <jgraham> It sounds like you don't need treewalker except for serialization
# [21:15] <jgraham> In python I would do something like:
# [21:16] <jgraham> p = html5lib.HTMLParser(tree=treebuilders.getTreBuilder("lxml"))
# [21:16] <tusho> OK. What should I use, then? I'm _already_ using the parser for sanitization.,
# [21:16] <tusho> Ah, I see. Okay. Hm.
# [21:16] <jgraham> doc = p.parse("input.html")
# [21:16] * tusho nods
# [21:16] <jgraham> then the tree-specific method of doing what you want
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# [21:17] <jgraham> then maybe use the treewalker stuff to do the output and sanitisation
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# [21:17] <tusho> OK!
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# [21:22] <tusho> jgraham: Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
# [21:23] <tusho> I take it that this isn't _really_ hpricot?
# [21:26] <jgraham> tusho: I think it is really hpricot
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# [21:26] <tusho> NoMethodError: undefined method `/' for #<HTML5::TreeBuilders::Hpricot::TreeBuilder:0x122c4cc>
# [21:26] <tusho> after
# [21:26] <tusho> HTML5::TreeBuilders[:hpricot].new(tree)/"a"
# [21:26] <tusho> tree is the html5parser result
# [21:27] <jgraham> I'm not sure what that's trying to do
# [21:27] <tusho> Get all the 'a' tags.
# [21:30] <jgraham> http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/code/instiki/svn/lib/sanitize.rb might be useful to you
# [21:31] <tusho> @treebuilder = TreeBuilders::REXML::TreeBuilder
# [21:31] <tusho> Not really.
# [21:33] <jgraham> OK, so tree is a hpricot tree, right? So what does all the HTML5::TreeBuilders[:hpricot].new do?
# [21:33] <jgraham> (did I mention that I don't know Ruby)
# [21:34] <tusho> HTML5::TreeBuilders[:hpricot] -> HTML5::Treebuilders::Hpricot::Treebuilder
# [21:34] <tusho> Then I make a new instance.
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# [21:38] <Hixie> aa___: yt? othermaciej: yt?
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# [21:41] <annevk> Lachy, FWIW, I'm opposed to hasFeature
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# [21:44] <jgraham> tusho: I think you want to set the HTML5::Treebuilders::Hpricot::Treebuilder class as the @tree attribute on your HTMLParser
# [21:44] <tusho> Ah.
# [21:44] <tusho> That might work. :P Then how would I use it like Hpricot?
# [21:44] <tusho> i.e. get the actual document object
# [21:46] <jgraham> the .parse method of the HTMLParser will return a Hpricot tree object
# [21:46] <jgraham> (fwiw I can't remember if you want to set the @tree to be a class or an instance)
# [21:48] <jgraham> (but you should be able to use HTML5::Trebuilders::getTreeBuilder("hpricot") to get the right type of object
# [21:48] <jgraham> )
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# [21:50] <tusho> jgraham: get_tree_builder, it'd be
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# [21:52] <tusho> jgraham: and as [] is a shortcut:
# [21:52] <tusho> HTML5::TreeBuilders[:hpricot]
# [21:53] <jgraham> Crazy ;)
# [21:53] <tusho> jgraham: It'll just be something like this:
# [21:53] <tusho> def [](name)
# [21:53] <tusho> get_tree_builder name
# [21:53] <tusho> end
# [21:53] <tusho> So not too crazy :)
# [21:53] <tusho> (And :foo is just the (Lisp) symbol 'foo')
# [21:55] <jgraham> Oh, I see. That makes som sense
# [21:56] <jgraham> *some
# [21:56] <gsnedders> Hixie: command-insertorderedlist and remoteeventtarget are the two remaining dupes
# [21:56] <tusho> jgraham: You could do:
# [21:57] <tusho> html5.treebuilders['hpricot'] in python
# [21:57] <tusho> __getitem__, vs defining []
# [21:58] <Hixie> gsnedders: fixed
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# [21:59] <Hixie> i guess i'll define pipes in html5 proper
# [21:59] <Hixie> postMessage v2
# [21:59] <Hixie> might as well add basic data structure support while i'm at it
# [22:00] <tusho> Hixie: can't you just ... use JS or something?
# [22:00] <tusho> you're inventing a programming language! :)
# [22:00] <Hixie> i mean for transfering data using postMessage()
# [22:01] <Hixie> we can't just use JS, as that would allow cross-domain polution
# [22:01] <annevk> that's bound to confuse postMessage implementors
# [22:01] <tusho> true
# [22:01] <tusho> still...
# [22:01] <tusho> pipes and data structures..
# [22:01] <tusho> i'm sure there's some kind of constrained language that already does it
# [22:01] <Hixie> annevk: what is?
# [22:02] <Hixie> tusho: i don't understand what you mean
# [22:02] <annevk> if the whole postMessage algorithm changes now to add support for pipes
# [22:02] <jgraham> tusho: Yeah, although it wouldn't actually work in python because treebuilders is a module not a class
# [22:02] <Hixie> annevk: it'd be a superset
# [22:02] <tusho> jgraham: Well, in Ruby I think it's a module
# [22:02] <jgraham> (re: __getitem__ that is)
# [22:02] <annevk> yes, but a group of implementors is still working on v1 and shipping that and won't have time to add v2
# [22:02] <tusho> Which are used for namespaces and mixins. :p
# [22:02] <Hixie> brb
# [22:05] <tusho> Hmph.
# [22:05] <tusho> The tree gives me an array of elements.
# [22:05] <tusho> Why couldn't it just be a Hpricot document. Sheehs
# [22:06] <annevk> Lachy, for hasFeature, maybe make it something for non-ECMAScript impl
# [22:07] <Lachy> ok, that could work
# [22:07] <annevk> and also mark it at risk :)
# [22:07] <annevk> so we can drop it after CR :p
# [22:08] <annevk> :evil:
# [22:08] <Lachy> LOL
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# [22:08] <Lachy> Hixie, othermaciej, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jul/att-0019/Overview.html
# [22:08] <gsnedders> Hixie: the spec-gen works in 1.5s on an XML copy of html5 (both parsing and serialising in a C extension), so with chtml5lib, that'd be the sort of speed doable
# [22:08] <Lachy> also mailed www-style about it
# [22:09] <Lachy> JohnResig_, see URI above
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# [22:09] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0193.html
# [22:10] <Lachy> I suppose I should mail webapps about it to
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# [22:18] <gsnedders> Philip`: No, there is no ISO for TOC
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# [22:28] <tusho> Hmph.
# [22:28] <tusho> The tree is an array of hpricot elements.
# [22:28] <tusho> Not an hpricot searcher thing
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# [22:30] <gsnedders> Hmm…
# [22:30] <gsnedders> That's a rather major bug.
# [22:31] <tusho> Is it a bug?
# [22:31] <tusho> :\
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# [22:31] <tusho> Dunno how on earth to turn it into a hpricot searcher thingy though..
# [22:31] <gsnedders> No, in my spec-gen, I just found a huge bug
# [22:31] <gsnedders> Completely unrelated to you :P
# [22:31] <tusho> Oh.
# [22:31] <tusho> :(
# [22:34] <gsnedders> I _really_ hate lxml
# [22:35] <weinig> Lachy: Am I correct in assuming querySelector is supposed to work with elements that are not in the document?
# [22:35] <weinig> Lachy: for instance a freshly created element, (document.createElement("foo")
# [22:35] <annevk> yes
# [22:35] <annevk> it should work for document fragments and such
# [22:36] <annevk> well, iirc
# [22:36] <JohnResig> weinig: currently no implementation supports fragments
# [22:36] <weinig> JohnResig: I am implementing fragments right now
# [22:36] <weinig> JohnResig: webkit should support them in an hour
# [22:37] <weinig> thanks annevk
# [22:37] <JohnResig> weinig: nice - did you catch my test suite?
# [22:37] <weinig> JohnResig: I saw it last night, it looks cool
# [22:38] <weinig> JohnResig: it seems to have some weird issues in Safari though
# [22:38] <JohnResig> weinig: k - I noticed a couple regressions from Safari 3.1 -> Nightly (but also some fixes)
# [22:38] <JohnResig> I assume that things are still being worked on, on your end
# [22:38] <weinig> really?
# [22:38] <weinig> JohnResig: they are
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# [22:40] <jgraham> gsnedders: Why do you hate lxml?
# [22:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: how it stores text
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# [22:41] <gsnedders> (the latest bug is because I forget to copy the tail)
# [22:41] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yeah the .text .tail thing isn't really optimised for documents but text nodes are pretty bad too
# [22:42] <jgraham> (that is documents as opposed to data where .tails are rare)
# [22:51] <JohnResig> Lachy: I'll need your attention here: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=416317#c29 Boris has some Selectors API spec questions
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# [23:00] <Lachy> weinig, yes
# [23:00] <Lachy> JohnResig, looking now
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# [23:05] <Lachy> JohnResig, so if I understand, the issue is what to do with:
# [23:05] <Lachy> .querySelector("foo", {});
# [23:05] <JohnResig> that's one of the points, yes
# [23:05] <Lachy> what does Firefox do now?
# [23:05] <JohnResig> it sounds like it just ignores it
# [23:06] <Lachy> I would expect it to throw an NAMESPACE_ERR
# [23:06] <JohnResig> yeah - that's what I test for
# [23:06] <JohnResig> the other point: what should .querySelector() do (passing in nothing)
# [23:07] <JohnResig> since that's not specified (it seems)
# [23:09] <Lachy> I think it is, let me see.
# [23:09] <zcorpan> wow, image { background:fuchsia } <img> works in ie
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# [23:10] <gsnedders> zcorpan: <img> has a non-zero size, or there being an actual image?
# [23:10] <Lachy> JohnResig, it says "If the selectors parameter is set to either null or undefined, the implementation must behave as if an empty string had been passed instead". In that case, it's undefined
# [23:10] <Lachy> because in JS, not passing a parameter === undefined
# [23:10] <Lachy> At least, that's how I understand it
# [23:10] <zcorpan> gsnedders: placeholder box
# [23:11] <annevk> zcorpan, nice
# [23:11] <JohnResig> Lachy: well, no - since when doing fn( undefined ) you have one argument whose value is undefined, doing fn() you have no arguments
# [23:11] <gsnedders> Lachy: (FWIW, your local copy of the spec-gen will become quickly outdated with how much I've been doing over the holidays)
# [23:11] <gsnedders> Regardless, g'nite y'all
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# [23:11] <JohnResig> function fn(){ alert(arguments.length); } to test
# [23:11] <annevk> (and also bad, but it's also nice as it's sort of consistent)
# [23:11] <Lachy> oh, I see.
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# [23:11] <Lachy> ok, I'll fix that, because it was my intention to cover missing arguements too
# [23:12] <Lachy> the intention is for: missing argument == undefined == null == "" for the selectors argument
# [23:12] <JohnResig> ok, sure
# [23:14] <Hixie> Lachy: i don't think the child nodes of a DocumentFragment node should match ":context > *" (especially since they presumably would not match "* > *")
# [23:15] <zcorpan> http://doctype.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/tests/html/elements/plaintext-element-applies-style-test.html
# [23:15] <annevk> Hixie, my main postMessage concern is with IE, Opera, and Safari, which afaik haven't shipped an impl yet
# [23:15] <annevk> of v1
# [23:15] <annevk> but plan to do so soonish
# [23:16] <Lachy> Hixie, send mail
# [23:16] <Hixie> annevk: so?
# [23:16] <Hixie> Lachy: k
# [23:16] <Hixie> Lachy: www-style?
# [23:16] <Lachy> Hixie, I added DocumentFragment back in based on earlier feedback from JohnResig
# [23:16] <annevk> Hixie, depending on how you write down the new stuff, it might be harder to figure out what we have to implement
# [23:16] <Lachy> but I left Entity and EntityReference out based on your earlier feedback
# [23:16] <Lachy> Hixie, yeah, www-style will do
# [23:17] <Hixie> sent
# [23:17] <Hixie> annevk: yeah, i'll be careful
# [23:17] <annevk> Hixie, I'm mainly concerned with IE pulling the implementation because they think the feature is instable
# [23:18] <annevk> ok, we'll see how it goes
# [23:18] <Hixie> yeah, that's a valid concern
# [23:19] <Hixie> i'll make it clearly separate
# [23:20] <annevk> chaals: "A. Naturally, we have a complete implementation of the final version of HTML 5..."
# [23:20] <annevk> typical
# [23:20] <annevk> -- http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/07/interview_charles_mccathienevi.html
# [23:20] <Hixie> heycam`: yt?
# [23:22] <annevk> two questions about XForms
# [23:22] <Lachy> JohnResig, maybe treating missing arguments as undefined isn't really great behaviour. What are the other possibilities for handling it?
# [23:23] <Lachy> how are missing args handled in other cases where they're required?
# [23:25] <Lachy> oh, querySelector("xxx", {}); should probably throw a TYPE_MISMATCH_ERR
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# [23:31] <Lachy> JohnResig, I commented on the bug
# [23:31] <JohnResig> Lachy: great, thanks
# [23:32] <annevk> where's gsnedders?
# [23:33] <annevk> gsnedders, if you read this, another feature request: no xref from within <hx>
# [23:35] * jgraham thinks gsnedders needs bugzilla.gsnedders.com
# [23:35] <jgraham> (other bug tracking software is avaliable)
# [23:35] <tusho> bugzilla, eurgh
# [23:36] <annevk> jgraham, he just needs to read the logs :p
# [23:37] <jgraham> Yeah and keep track of all the bugs, which have been coming in pretty fast today
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# [23:54] <Lachy> does anyone know what Andrew is trying to say here? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0196.html
# [23:55] <Lachy> I can't comprehend his selectChild() and selectParent() examples.
# [23:55] <Hixie> i never have any idea what that guy is talking about
# [23:55] <Hixie> i mean, never
# [23:55] <Hixie> i've tried many a time
# [23:55] <Lachy> I know, I never have either.
# [23:55] <JohnResig> Lachy: he wants to overload :root to mean :root or :context
# [23:55] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) ("http://www.csarven.ca")
# [23:55] <Lachy> yeah, I get that. Obviously, we can't do that. Besides, that was discussed in the webapi wg and rejected earlier.
# Session Close: Fri Jul 11 00:00:00 2008

The end :)