/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-07-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jul 11 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:41] <heycam> Hixie, here now
  6. # [00:42] <othermaciej> Lachy: why :context instead of :scope?
  7. # [00:42] <othermaciej> (I asked by email too)
  8. # [00:50] <weinig> JohnResig: hey, it would really helpful if there was someway to figure out what each individual failure was testing specifically
  9. # [00:51] <weinig> JohnResig: I am not sure what things like FAIL: Fragment: childhood selector
  10. # [00:51] <weinig> JohnResig: means
  11. # [00:51] <JohnResig> weinig: hmm - I wonder if I could do a stack trace or something
  12. # [00:52] <weinig> JohnResig: I was thinking more just what the actual call to querySelector or querySelectorAll was being passed
  13. # [00:52] <weinig> JohnResig: the specific string
  14. # [00:53] <JohnResig> weinig: the pass/fail doesn't always associate with a direct query (most do) the one you cited, for example, is from a traversal through the document verifying the exact items that were matched were supposed to be matched
  15. # [00:53] <weinig> JohnResig: I see
  16. # [00:53] <Lachy> othermaciej, I thought it was a better name
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  18. # [00:53] <weinig> JohnResig: perhaps that could be made more clear
  19. # [00:53] <JohnResig> weinig: if a test is ever testing a selector directly then it's shown in the test result in parentheses
  20. # [00:54] <weinig> JohnResig: ah, I see that now
  21. # [00:54] <Lachy> othermaciej, I wouldn't mind changing it back to :scope, but I don't want this to become another naming debate either
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  23. # [00:55] <othermaciej> Lachy: I liked :context better at first, but if we ever want to add a version of querySelector that prepends :scope/:context implicitly to each selector in the group (which I think we probably do, since it matches JS library semantics much better), queryScopedSelector would be a better name than queryContextualSelector
  24. # [00:55] <othermaciej> Lachy: other than that, don't care and was mostly curious
  25. # [00:58] <Lachy> othermaciej, I'm not yet convinced we need queryScopedSelector as well as this.
  26. # [00:58] <othermaciej> Lachy: I think there are two reasons we may still want it:
  27. # [00:59] <othermaciej> 1) otherwise JS libraries have to do rewriting of their incoming selectors, which is both slower and more error-prone in JS code than in native code
  28. # [00:59] <othermaciej> 2) without a way to access those syntax features directly, it becomes harder for authors to ever switch off the library wrappers to the native version, even once all browsers support it
  29. # [01:00] <annevk> unless libraries support two versions
  30. # [01:00] <othermaciej> libraries support two versions of what?
  31. # [01:00] <annevk> querySelector()
  32. # [01:00] <annevk> but i've no opinion on this so i should shut up :)
  33. # [01:01] <othermaciej> I don't understand how libraries supporting two versions makes a difference to either of my points
  34. # [01:02] <othermaciej> I guess if libraries support a non-scoped version, they don't have to do rewriting for that one, but presumably they do not want to drop their old features entirely, and authors do not want to stop using them
  35. # [01:05] <annevk> my case was based on libraries offering two versions and authors switching to one that eventually allows them to just use querySelector
  36. # [01:05] <annevk> anyway, like I said, I should not discuss this
  37. # [01:07] <othermaciej> it seems like neither libraries nor authors want to do that
  38. # [01:08] <annevk> it was a rather hypothetical point, indeed
  39. # [01:14] <Lachy> othermaciej, would it make sense to have both queryScopedSelector and :context?
  40. # [01:14] <Lachy> oh, well, for scoped stylesheets in HTML5, yes. But for selectors api?
  41. # [01:15] <othermaciej> Lachy: I think so
  42. # [01:15] <Lachy> ok, fair enough
  43. # [01:15] <othermaciej> Lachy: the pseudo-class lets you do things that implicit scoping wouldn't
  44. # [01:15] <Lachy> I'll take another look at the idea over the next few days
  45. # [01:15] <Lachy> right
  46. # [01:15] <othermaciej> but implicit scoping is convenient and has evolved as a de facto standard in JS libraries
  47. # [01:16] <othermaciej> I think we should go along with it instead of fighting it, so long as the semantics can be defined soundly
  48. # [01:16] <Lachy> ok, fair enough. I"ll talk to our developers about whether or not its implementable
  49. # [01:16] <othermaciej> a while back I sent a fairly simple algorithm that could be used to translate a scoped selector to a selector using :scope/:context
  50. # [01:16] <othermaciej> to public-webapi
  51. # [01:17] <Lachy> and then there was that issue of effectively redefining the grammar of selectors, which would probably result in some complaints from the CSSWG
  52. # [01:17] <othermaciej> 1. Initialize nesting level to 0
  53. # [01:17] <othermaciej> 2. Initialize the output string to the empty string
  54. # [01:17] <othermaciej> 3. While characters in the input string remain:
  55. # [01:17] <othermaciej> 3.a. read the current character
  56. # [01:17] <othermaciej> 3.b. if the current character is:
  57. # [01:17] <othermaciej> ",": if the nesting level is 0, append ", :scope " to the output string
  58. # [01:17] <othermaciej> "(": increase the nesting level by 1, and append "(" to the output string
  59. # [01:17] <Lachy> yeah, I remember that.
  60. # [01:17] <othermaciej> ")": decrease the nesting level by 1, and append ")" to the output string
  61. # [01:17] <othermaciej> anything else: append the current character to the output string
  62. # [01:17] <Lachy> oh, where is that mail?
  63. # [01:17] <othermaciej> 3.c. advance to the next character
  64. # [01:17] <othermaciej> 4. return the output string
  65. # [01:17] <Lachy> I was looking for it
  66. # [01:17] <othermaciej> (sorry for the large paste)
  67. # [01:17] <othermaciej> it's in the public-webapi archives
  68. # [01:17] <annevk> SVG in HTML: http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-svg-minutes.html#action02
  69. # [01:17] <Lachy> do you have a link handy
  70. # [01:18] <othermaciej> it doesn't redefine the grammar of selectors, just defines a new syntax for the related notion of scoped/contextual selector
  71. # [01:18] <Lachy> found it http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008May/0058.html
  72. # [01:18] <annevk> I'd suggest postponing that to Selectors API Level 2
  73. # [01:19] <Lachy> yeah, that might be sensibe
  74. # [01:19] <Lachy> othermaciej, is there any reason to rush it through in v1?
  75. # [01:19] <othermaciej> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008May/0058.html
  76. # [01:19] <annevk> unless :context is somehow fast tracked
  77. # [01:19] <othermaciej> Lachy: I don't think it is essential for v1
  78. # [01:19] <Lachy> ok, good.
  79. # [01:19] <othermaciej> just seems like a good idea in general
  80. # [01:20] <Lachy> I'll write up a draft for v2 with it included and put it in CVS later
  81. # [01:20] <othermaciej> however, I do think <style scoped> + queryScopedSelector would lean towards the pseudo-class being :scope instead of :context
  82. # [01:20] <othermaciej> for consistency
  83. # [01:20] <Lachy> also have to add other requested features like NodeList.querySelector
  84. # [01:21] <Lachy> but first, I have to deal with those pesky NSResolver issues
  85. # [01:21] <Lachy> unfortunately, I didn't have tim to look at replacing it with one of the other proposals now, and since Mozilla has started implementing it, it's a bit late to turn back now :-(
  86. # [01:22] <Lachy> s/tim/time/
  87. # [01:22] <othermaciej> Mozilla's implementation hasn't shipped yet
  88. # [01:22] <othermaciej> so I guess lack of your time would be the only problem
  89. # [01:22] <othermaciej> (afaik Mozilla's implementation has not even been checked in yet)
  90. # [01:23] <Lachy> yeah, and I'm pretty sure I can resolve the issues with the function approach anyway. Besides, they need to be solved for NSResolvers used elsewhere, so they may as well be solved here and adopted into the other places too
  91. # [01:24] <Lachy> since the other specs with NSResolvers leave a lot of this largely undefined
  92. # [01:24] <othermaciej> my problem with the function approach isn't really that it can do random things, but just that it is a bad idea in the first place to use a function instead of a data structure to represent namespace prefix mappings
  93. # [01:25] <othermaciej> requiring resolution of all prefixes in the selector up front should be enough to make behavior interoperable
  94. # [01:25] <othermaciej> I think the only reason we are using NSResolver is because XPath did, which doesn't seem like a particularly good reason to me
  95. # [01:26] <Lachy> yeah, that's a possibility
  96. # [01:27] <Lachy> how about I draft up the spec to replace it tomorrow and let the WG decide if we want to keep it as is, or adopt the newer approach.
  97. # [01:27] <Lachy> With a concrete proposal, it might make the decision process a lot easier
  98. # [01:27] <Lachy> since so far we've been arguing about what we've already spent a great deal of time on and is already quite mature, and something that isn't even specced yet
  99. # [01:28] * uriel_ is now known as uriel
  100. # [01:28] <Lachy> It would have been easier if Mozilla had decided to ship without NSResolver support though, which is what I had hoped when I defined it to be optinal
  101. # [01:29] <roc> we haven't shipped anything so i don't see what the problem is
  102. # [01:30] <Lachy> the problem is that time is being spent implementing and testing a feature which could be dropped
  103. # [01:30] <Lachy> so I'd better hurry up and make a decision to not too much time is wasted
  104. # [01:30] <Lachy> but in any case, the implementation experience could help make the decision easier I guess
  105. # [01:30] <roc> I'm not sure if Boris has implemented the NSResolver stuff, but the whole thing only took him a week or less so not much effort has been wasted at worst
  106. # [01:30] <roc> on our side
  107. # [01:30] <Lachy> he started on it a couple of days ago
  108. # [01:31] <Lachy> they're already discussing issues with in in bugzilla
  109. # [01:31] <roc> er ok :-)
  110. # [01:31] <Hixie> othermaciej: your convertor fails on \escapes
  111. # [01:32] <annevk> introducing the second argument to querySelector was a mistake
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  113. # [01:32] <othermaciej> Hixie: good point - should be patchable
  114. # [01:32] <Lachy> I think the best alternative solution was to make it a DOMString like "#default=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml svg=http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" or something like that
  115. # [01:32] <othermaciej> Hixie: given how unrelated it is to normal parsing, I should probably try to write a proof that it will DTRT for all selector syntax
  116. # [01:32] <annevk> my apologies and 10.000 dollar (monopoly currency) to Ian Hickson for saying that from the beginning
  117. # [01:33] <othermaciej> should be easy to do inductively and should catch any other errors
  118. # [01:34] <annevk> as from a use case point of view namespace support is not at all needed at this point
  119. # [01:35] <annevk> even for SVG and MathML it would work fine without it
  120. # [01:43] <Hixie> othermaciej: (doesn't handle strings, either)
  121. # [01:44] <othermaciej> Hixie: acknowledged
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  124. # [01:50] * annevk -> bed
  125. # [01:51] <Lachy> grr. Why is it that I can't get a straight answer to my question about what Boris wants the spec to say? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=416317#c31
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  127. # [01:54] <Hixie> isn't he just saying "leave it up to webidl"?
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  134. # [02:02] <Lachy> yeah, maybe. I posted another comment saying that
  135. # [02:05] <Lachy> ok, it seems :context for DocumentFragments isn't getting much support. Unless there are really convincing use cases for it, I'm going to drop it. But even if there are, there's probably better solutions.
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  160. # [04:58] <weinig> JohnResig: ping
  161. # [05:01] <weinig> JohnResig: I am curious about verifyResolve method in your selectors test
  162. # [05:02] <weinig> JohnResig: I am getting a failure because null is being passed to it, but my reading of spec says that null should be passed to the resolver to get the default namespace
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  233. # [14:51] <JohnResig> Lachy: the webkit guys are saying that in order to get the default namespace null has to be passed in to the namespace resolver - however in the examples in the spec it shows "" as representing the default namespace (and Opera does "" as well)
  234. # [14:53] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api/#nsresolver says null...
  235. # [14:54] <JohnResig> annevk: so I think Opera's implementation is probably in the wrong here
  236. # [14:54] <JohnResig> annevk: we have gems like this, as well: "" :"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml", // Default namespace
  237. # [14:54] <JohnResig> which is, apparently, completely wrong
  238. # [14:54] <annevk> can you do { null : "..." } ?
  239. # [14:54] <annevk> if not, changing to the empty string might make sense
  240. # [14:55] <JohnResig> null gets converted into a string representation of "null" (which means that you can no longer have a namespace named null)
  241. # [14:55] <JohnResig> yeah, that's why empty string made sense - since you can't have an empty namespace to begin with
  242. # [14:55] <annevk> you're confusing prefix and namespace
  243. # [14:55] <annevk> i agree that the empty string makes sense though
  244. # [14:58] <Lachy> oh dear.
  245. # [14:59] <Lachy> there was a reason this was changed. I believe it was because Node.lookupNamespaceResolver or maybe the XPath NSResolver expected null to be passed.
  246. # [14:59] <annevk> XPath doesn't do default namespace
  247. # [15:00] <Lachy> ok, it must have been the Node one then
  248. # [15:00] <annevk> why are we keeping NSResolver around again? :)
  249. # [15:01] <Lachy> annevk, I don't know :-)
  250. # [15:01] <annevk> yeah: http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/core.html#Node3-lookupNamespaceURI
  251. # [15:02] <JohnResig> ok, that seems pretty conclusive, then
  252. # [15:02] <JohnResig> I'll change the test suite
  253. # [15:03] <Lachy> well, not entirely. It sucks for authors.
  254. # [15:04] <JohnResig> which authors?
  255. # [15:04] <annevk> we don't depend on lookupNamespaceURI so it makes no sense to be compatible with it
  256. # [15:04] <annevk> imo
  257. # [15:04] <JohnResig> oh
  258. # [15:06] <annevk> doing obj = { "" : "...", "prefix1" : "..." }; return obj[prefix] is much more convenient than if(prefix == null) { ... } else { return obj[prefix] }
  259. # [15:06] <Lachy> JohnResig, not being able to use the simple hash that I used in the example sucks for authors
  260. # [15:07] <JohnResig> ok! so yeah, I'm changing the test suite, then
  261. # [15:07] <annevk> though namespaces suck anyway and are hardly relevant for any use case I can imagine for this API, so it doesn't matter
  262. # [15:07] <Lachy> ok, fair enough
  263. # [15:07] <Lachy> maybe I really should focus on looking at the alternative proposals
  264. # [15:08] <krijnh> JohnResig: how is your new JS selector engine going?
  265. # [15:08] <JohnResig> krijnh: going good - haven't had time to work on it in a while
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  267. # [15:09] <krijnh> I got ignored on jquery-dev, when asking about it :)
  268. # [15:10] <JohnResig> krijnh: I haven't announced it publicly
  269. # [15:12] <krijnh> Hmm, I thought I read about it somewhere
  270. # [15:12] <JohnResig> krijnh: were you at Kings of Code
  271. # [15:12] <krijnh> Yeah, I was, but apart from that
  272. # [15:13] <krijnh> I was the one not doing any talking :)
  273. # [15:26] <Lachy> JohnResig, regarding the queryScopedSelector idea, which would be able to accept combinator rooted queries like ">em, >strong", could you provide me with details sometime (via email) about how exactly JQuery goes about parsing them?
  274. # [15:26] <Lachy> if we're going to consider adding that to selectors api v2, it would be useful to know so we could ensure proper compatibility
  275. # [15:26] <JohnResig> ok!
  276. # [15:27] <Lachy> also, any experience you have with implementing :context and prepending that to queries that you will eventually pass to querySelector(); would help too
  277. # [15:28] <Lachy> do you want me to send you a mail about that, or will you just remember to do it? There's not rush though.
  278. # [15:28] <JohnResig> Lachy: feel free to pass me an email
  279. # [15:28] <Lachy> ok, I will do later
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  283. # [16:09] <takkaria> hmm, html5lib has an odd test
  284. # [16:09] <takkaria> well, I think it has a wrong one anyway
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  286. # [16:10] <annevk> patches accepted
  287. # [16:10] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  288. # [16:10] <takkaria> I'm just checking I'm right against the spec
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  293. # [16:28] <annevk> I gave in and made a bugzilla account
  294. # [16:37] <Lachy> annevk, wow.
  295. # [16:37] <Lachy> what made you change your mind?
  296. # [16:38] <annevk> All the extra e-mail I will get
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  301. # [16:54] <codedread> does anyone have any good reference docs on mousewheel handling cross-browser?
  302. # [16:56] <codedread> (obviously i'm talking about current support, not future perfect support of onmousewheel)
  303. # [16:56] <annevk> I don't think there's much documentation on such things
  304. # [16:57] <codedread> grumble
  305. # [16:57] <codedread> google does it cross-browser for google maps, so it must be in doctype right? right? :)
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  315. # [17:05] <takkaria> jgraham: does the html5lib parse tree viewer use an up-to-date version of html5lib?
  316. # [17:11] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  317. # [17:12] <jgraham> takkaria: I think it's relatively up to date. It has the svn rev at the botom of the viewer page
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  319. # [17:12] <takkaria> jgraham: ah, thanks
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  325. # [17:29] <JohnResig> Lachy: I changed the suite to use null as the way to get the default prefix, made it so that doing querySelectorAll() (no arguments) only requires that an exception be thrown - not a particular one, I added some more default namespace tests, and added tests for disconnected DOM trees. Up to about 4200 tests now.
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  328. # [17:50] <tusho> So using html5lib with Ruby, I want to do things with all tags h1-h6.
  329. # [17:50] <tusho> Preferably with the hpricot interface.
  330. # [17:50] <tusho> What's the simplest way?
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  333. # [17:56] <Lachy> JohnResig_, yeah, I just saw your bugzilla comment about it. That's awesome
  334. # [17:57] <weinig> JohnResig_: thanks for fixing the test
  335. # [17:57] <JohnResig_> Lachy: it sounds like we're getting closer on our implementation - as is WebKit
  336. # [17:57] <JohnResig_> weinig: no problem, thanks for letting me know
  337. # [17:57] <weinig> np
  338. # [17:57] <JohnResig_> weinig: let me know if you spot any other weirdness/need help with test explanations
  339. # [17:57] <weinig> JohnResig_: will do
  340. # [18:01] <Lachy> wow, I think Bert Bos totally misunderstood the :context proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0214.html
  341. # [18:01] <Lachy> or at least the use cases it's trying to address
  342. # [18:01] <weinig> JohnResig_: I think I see one other issue
  343. # [18:01] <weinig> JohnResig_: xHTML|*#root3 xHTML|div svg *|circle is supposed to match circle1 as well
  344. # [18:02] <weinig> JohnResig_: since there is no default namespace provided by the resolver
  345. # [18:03] <JohnResig_> so you're saying that when no default namespace is provided "svg" becomes equivalent to "*|svg"
  346. # [18:03] <JohnResig_> sorry - when a resolver is provided - and no default namespace is given (returns null, undefined, etc.)
  347. # [18:03] <tusho> :\
  348. # [18:04] <weinig> JohnResig_: yes
  349. # [18:04] <jgraham> tusho: Once you have a hpricot tree it should just work however hpricot normally works
  350. # [18:04] * weinig checks the spec :)
  351. # [18:04] * JohnResig_ does the same
  352. # [18:04] <tusho> jgraham: But I _can't get an hpricot tree_.
  353. # [18:04] <tusho> It gives me an array of Hpricot element objects.
  354. # [18:04] <tusho> That's not useful for just about anything.
  355. # [18:04] <JohnResig_> Lachy: thoughts on the above?
  356. # [18:05] <jgraham> Oh yeah I remeber now :)
  357. # [18:05] <weinig> To get the default namespace, if there was an NSResolver object provided, implementations must invoke the lookupNamespaceURI() method with null as the argument. If there is no NSResolver object provided, or if the method returns null, then there is no default namespace. Otherwise, the return value is the default namespace.
  358. # [18:05] <weinig> this is the case of the method returning null
  359. # [18:05] <jgraham> tusho: Er, well you want to talk to a ruby type really like kingryan
  360. # [18:05] <JohnResig_> interesting
  361. # [18:06] <tusho> jgraham: Well, I just asked to see if anyone knew :)
  362. # [18:06] <weinig> JohnResig_: since the method is actually returing undefined
  363. # [18:06] <weinig> JohnResig_: you have to take into account this sentance
  364. # [18:06] <weinig> "While resolving either a prefix or the default namespace, if the lookupNamespaceURI() method returns undefined or an empty string, the implementation must act as if null had been returned"
  365. # [18:06] <JohnResig_> so in all cases "svg" is equivalent to "*|svg" iff a resolver is provided that actually gives a default namespace response
  366. # [18:06] <Lachy> JohnResig_, yeah, "svg" is the same as "*|svg" when there is no default namespace
  367. # [18:06] <JohnResig_> ok! time to change some tests
  368. # [18:07] <weinig> reloads :D
  369. # [18:07] <JohnResig_> heh - eww... this will be tricky, considering that some tests will have different output
  370. # [18:07] <JohnResig_> ok, won't be a simple tweak
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  373. # [18:09] <JohnResig> weinig: ok, it seems like t( "SVG", "xHTML|div svg *|circle", ["circle2","circle3"] ); is the only test that will be affected
  374. # [18:10] <weinig> JohnResig: yes
  375. # [18:13] <tusho> :\
  376. # [18:20] <jgraham> tusho: Well sadly the best I can offer is a pointer in the direction of the code: http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source/browse/trunk/ruby/lib/html5/treebuilders/hpricot.rb#220 is the line that gets called to get the object to return from .parse
  377. # [18:20] <tusho> ah, thanks
  378. # [18:21] <tusho> Beh, it does seem to use the hpricot element stuff.
  379. # [18:21] <tusho> Instead of the whole document.
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  382. # [18:28] <JohnResig> weinig: ok - I think I've implemented it - it seems to be catching the right pass/fail in Opera, at least
  383. # [18:30] <Lachy> JohnResig, has anyone told Microsoft about your test suite? Did you get it to run in IE8?
  384. # [18:31] <JohnResig> Lachy: I can't get it to run in IE8 because it's served with the correct mimetype - it just tries to download it
  385. # [18:31] <jgraham> tusho: patches welcome I guess
  386. # [18:31] <tusho> indeed
  387. # [18:31] <Lachy> oh, ok.
  388. # [18:31] * jgraham doesn't want to take reposnsibility if you break other people using ruby + hpricot
  389. # [18:31] <Lachy> Can you make an HTML only version without the namespace stuff for them to test with?
  390. # [18:32] <Lachy> and with additional tests to make sure they throw a NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR when an nsresolver is provided
  391. # [18:32] <JohnResig> have they said that that's what they're going to do?
  392. # [18:32] <Lachy> yes
  393. # [18:32] <jgraham> tusho: If you have an incompatible chnage to make I suggest you post to the mailing list first. If you have a compatible change I can check it in
  394. # [18:33] <tusho> it'd be quite complex to change jgraham
  395. # [18:33] <jgraham> (or give you commit access I guess)
  396. # [18:34] <Lachy> I don't think they support the namespace syntax either, so tests for "*|div" and "|div" will throw a SYNTAX_ERR, instead of automatically resolving even without an nsresolver
  397. # [18:34] <JohnResig> well, if they throw an exception, then it's a good bet that they'll fail all the tests that I provide
  398. # [18:34] <Lachy> sure, that's fine
  399. # [18:34] <Lachy> the spec actually requries full support for Selectors, so it's still a bug
  400. # [18:35] <JohnResig> yeah
  401. # [18:35] <jgraham> tusho: Well if you decide to pursue it let me kno and we'll work out a way to integrate the changes. The ruby port could really use some active maintainance :)
  402. # [18:35] <tusho> I will probably just serialize the tree after sanitization then run it through hpricot instead of combining it. :p
  403. # [18:35] <tusho> Ah, hacks!
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  434. # [21:06] <takkaria> the SVG people weren't very clever with their tag naming
  435. # [21:06] <takkaria> "malignmark" sounds evil; why would I want that in my graphics?
  436. # [21:07] <webben> does sound like a hex doesn't it? ;)
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  439. # [21:21] <jgraham> takkaria: How is your parser coming along? Is it close to usable yet?
  440. # [21:21] <takkaria> jgraham: I'm one test away from passing the html5lib tests
  441. # [21:22] <takkaria> so, probably fairly usable :)
  442. # [21:23] <takkaria> I'm currently fighting with scoping and the commented-out bits in the spec that deal with SVG
  443. # [21:26] <jgraham> cool
  444. # [21:26] <jgraham> I will have to take a look
  445. # [21:26] * jgraham should find some time to work on html5lib as well
  446. # [21:27] <takkaria> I quite fancy doing some work on html5lib to learn python
  447. # [21:27] <takkaria> since I know html5-parsing fairly well know
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  458. # [21:48] <takkaria> actually, the C html parser I've been working on is now passing all tests
  459. # [21:48] <jgraham> takkaria: Nice. Now if only I could get it to find libiconv :(
  460. # [21:49] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-d34675a7495591c5)
  461. # [21:52] <takkaria> jgraham: what OS are you using?
  462. # [21:52] <jgraham> OSX
  463. # [21:52] * Joins: howardr (i=howardr@exchange.uship.com)
  464. # [21:52] <jgraham> takkaria: Although I could probably find a linux box if that is likely to be easier
  465. # [21:52] <jgraham> s/find/log on to/
  466. # [21:53] <takkaria> linux would be much easier, I think
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  468. # [21:53] <takkaria> jmb (the other developer) has OS X, but I don't know what hoops he jumps through to compile
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  470. # [21:54] <takkaria> I think tomorrow I'll take a break from coding and write up API docs
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  472. # [21:56] <jmb> jgraham: depends where the problem is. if it's the test harnesses, then add -liconv to the LDFLAGS in test/Makefile
  473. # [21:58] <jgraham> jmb: Thanks, that helped a bit (I had added it in the wrong place apparently) now I get a different error :)
  474. # [21:59] <jmb> jgraham: feel free to pastebin it or somesuch :)
  475. # [22:01] <jgraham> jmb: http://pastebin.ca/1069420 (maybe I have an old version of the source? I used the "download tarball" link on the repo browser)
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  477. # [22:02] <jmb> jgraham: aha. you'll need the json-c in trunk/json-c/json-c, too
  478. # [22:02] <Philip`> gsnedders: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_2145 is what I was thinking of
  479. # [22:02] <jmb> jgraham: there's a couple of patches we need to feed upstream (e.g. handling of \0 in input)
  480. # [22:04] <takkaria> jmb: have you emailed the fella about that? if not, might be worth setting up a google code project for it or something
  481. # [22:04] <jgraham> jmb: I put json-c 0.7 in json/json-c-0.7/ (and installed it) do I need to do something else, like change the directory names?
  482. # [22:04] <jmb> takkaria: no, I haven't. two reasons: a) laziness b) lack of response to the last set of patches I sent
  483. # [22:04] <jgraham> (and I applied the patches)
  484. # [22:06] <takkaria> jgraham: apply this patch too: http://source.netsurf-browser.org/trunk/json-c/json-c/json_object.c?r1=4383&r2=4385&view=patch
  485. # [22:06] <takkaria> actually, don't, that's just for one file
  486. # [22:06] <jmb> jgraham: the readme in hubbub/json is out of date. I need to fix that. please accept my apologies. if you build the version at svn://source.netsurf-browser.org/trunk/json-c/json-c, then you should have the stuff it needs
  487. # [22:07] <jmb> s/build/build and install/
  488. # [22:12] <jgraham> jmb: That worked :)
  489. # [22:12] <jmb> jgraham: cool :)
  490. # [22:12] <takkaria> it's a shame the parser tests format doesn't have any comment syntax, it would help
  491. # [22:13] <jgraham> takkaria: Yeah. If hsivonen was here I would propose that we add one
  492. # [22:13] * jmb runs off to find food
  493. # [22:13] <takkaria> jgraham: I'll send mail to whatwg-imps
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  518. # [23:40] <jgraham> How is it that pretty much every single scientific journal I have used manages to create such an awful user experience for citations
  519. # [23:40] <webben> jgraham: talking about deadtree or online?
  520. # [23:41] <jgraham> webben: Journals that are primarilly deadtree but also have html versions
  521. # [23:41] <webben> lack of dedicated markup and UI I guess.
  522. # [23:41] <jgraham> (or primarilly PDF I guess)
  523. # [23:42] <webben> does Zotero help?
  524. # [23:42] <jgraham> webben: Given how bad they are at using the <a> element I don't see that more markup would improve the situation
  525. # [23:42] <jgraham> What is Zotero?
  526. # [23:42] <webben> http://www.zotero.org/
  527. # [23:45] <jgraham> Yeah, that looks like it might be useful. Really I don't have complex needs; all I want is that when I come across an interesting-looking reference in an article I can get to the referenced article without having to search for it manually and/or have multiple popup windows, and without losing my place in the original article
  528. # [23:45] <webben> sure
  529. # [23:46] <webben> but browsers don't seem to have competed on the basis of what's useful for scholars.
  530. # [23:46] <Philip`> Browsers should have a 'back within current document' button, so you can scroll to the end and then jump back to where you were
  531. # [23:46] <Philip`> (It's pretty useful in KPDF)
  532. # [23:46] <jgraham> webben: I don't doubt that the browser could be better but the sites themselves are so so poor
  533. # [23:47] <webben> jgraham: Oh no disagreement. i've seen journal markup. it's dreadful.
  534. # [23:47] <webben> but it's also inconsistent from one journal to another, and dedicated markup /might/ have helped with that.
  535. # [23:47] * Copyman` is now known as Maurice
  536. # [23:49] <webben> Philip`: You mean rather than inserting fragments in the same history as pages?
  537. # [23:50] <jgraham> webben: Yeah, but even with what they have. I mean Wiley Interscience (which Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society just moved to) doesn't seem to have a link to the cited article _at all_
  538. # [23:50] <webben> (Your typical modern Back button does let you jump back from fragments; it just doesn't let you jump back with one click to a previous page.)
  539. # [23:50] <Philip`> webben: I mean something like how browsers currently insert same-page fragments into the history, except for manual scrolling of the page (e.g. dragging the scrollbar or hitting the 'end' key) instead of clicking fragment links
  540. # [23:50] <webben> jgraham: has it got anything? like a doi?
  541. # [23:51] <webben> Philip`: I see what you mean. Interesting idea.
  542. # [23:52] <webben> a 'Step back to previous positions' button
  543. # [23:52] <jgraham> webben: Well it has the text and a link to something called SFX which doesn't seem to have anything in
  544. # [23:53] <webben> jgraham: http://www.exlibrisgroup.com/category/SFXOverview ... looks you need to have a library network with a SFX-based linking solution or something.
  545. # [23:53] <webben> jgraham: I guess the problem to be solved is dependent on your library, your route to an online version is different.
  546. # [23:53] <webben> (depending on whom your institution buys subscriptions from)
  547. # [23:54] <Philip`> Hixie: r1860 ("more typos") did what its commit message says and added more typos, particularly "insertUnrderedList"
  548. # [23:56] <Hixie> d'oh
  549. # [23:56] <Hixie> thanks
  550. # [23:56] <jgraham> webben: For astrophysics there is a NASA service called ADS which everyone uses for everything (it's smilar to PubMed I think). Anything else, especially anything that doesn't actually get me to the article, is not the right solution :)
  551. # [23:56] * Quits: pd (n=kyleh@unaffiliated/pd) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  552. # [23:57] * webben thinks doi works well.
  553. # [23:57] <jgraham> (the old MNRAS site linked to ADS in a way that was irritating in that it involved multiple popup windows but could be greasemonkied)
  554. # [23:58] <webben> well ... well enough
  555. # [23:58] <jgraham> webben: doi is just a numbering system right?
  556. # [23:58] <webben> jgraham: yeah, basically ; doi is a permanent digital object identifier ;
  557. # [23:59] <webben> jgraham: but it's human legible (can copy and paste it, or /print/ it, or scribble it down) and you can use it as a link by linking to a resolver.
  558. # Session Close: Sat Jul 12 00:00:00 2008

The end :)