/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-07-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jul 12 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <webben> http://dx.doi.org/
  4. # [00:00] <webben> or use a bookmarklet http://www.doi.org/resolver_button/doibutton.html
  5. # [00:03] <jgraham> webben: Right so the problem is that a) not all journals put the doi in text format (because it's not really any more human readable an an icq number for example) and b) copying and pasting is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. This is supposed to be hypertext and so the one thing I should be able to do is to link between resources
  6. # [00:03] <webben> jgraham: sure, every doi should be printed as a number and linked to a resolver
  7. # [00:04] <webben> ideally one would use the doi scheme I guess.
  8. # [00:05] <webben> doi:// whatever
  9. # [00:05] <webben> it's a question of whether it's more useful atm to just link to a resolver.
  10. # [00:07] <webben> jgraham: lots of tools can use them without copying/pasting: http://www.doi.org/tools.html
  11. # [00:08] <jgraham> webben: Well I can't imagine browsers ever supporting the doi scheme or researchers ever bothing to install extensions
  12. # [00:08] * webben installed extensions as a student, so he easily can.
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  16. # [00:10] <webben> also, if I was in the habit of patching browsers, it's probably a patch I'd submit.
  17. # [00:10] <jgraham> webben: Sure, I install extensions too. Indeed I even went so far as to write a custom extension for our research group and have it installed on all our systems But I can't see my supervisor installing an extension by himself
  18. # [00:11] <webben> that's old generation
  19. # [00:11] <webben> they don't get the interwebs
  20. # [00:11] <webben> hence ... failsome journal markup
  21. # [00:11] <roc> why wouldn't researchers install extensions?
  22. # [00:11] <webben> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=226648
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  24. # [00:12] <roc> university IT departments could preinstall them anyway
  25. # [00:12] <webben> (open bug to support DOI)
  26. # [00:12] <jgraham> roc: Because most of them are not power users
  27. # [00:12] <roc> ok
  28. # [00:12] <roc> but honestly extensions aren't just for power users anymore
  29. # [00:13] <webben> i think the researchers of the future are inevitably "power users" compared to the current generation
  30. # [00:13] <jgraham> The problem in this case is chicken/egg. Journals don't use doi:// links because no one could use them, no one bothers to install stuff to make them usable because they're not widely used
  31. # [00:13] <webben> jgraham: "journals don't use" ... actually lots do, from what I've seen. There may well be disciplinary gaps however.
  32. # [00:14] <webben> I found out about doi precisely because journals I was reading did use em
  33. # [00:14] <annevk> Hixie, postMessage v2 design looks good so far
  34. # [00:14] <webben> e.g. nature uses doi iirc
  35. # [00:14] <jgraham> roc: I'm not sure. Of the people in my office only the "power users" have extensions
  36. # [00:14] <annevk> Hixie, it addresses my concerns, anyway
  37. # [00:14] <Hixie> annevk: i haven't done anything yet :-)
  38. # [00:15] <webben> http://www.nature.com/bjc/journal/v99/n1/full/6604432a.html
  39. # [00:15] <annevk> Hixie, you're going to use a new section for the postMessage v2 method :)
  40. # [00:15] <annevk> or at least, a separate algorithm
  41. # [00:15] <Philip`> gsnedders: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080711#l-478
  42. # [00:15] <Hixie> i haven't worked out what to do with the postMessage(data, pipe, origin) case
  43. # [00:15] <annevk> oh ok
  44. # [00:15] <Hixie> but the Pipe stuff has its own section for sure
  45. # [00:16] <Hixie> i might just not specify postMessage(d,p,o) for a while
  46. # [00:16] <Hixie> until several postMessage()s ship, at least
  47. # [00:16] <Hixie> btw i changed eventsource a lot
  48. # [00:16] <jgraham> webben: That looks pretty good. Better than most journals I've encountered
  49. # [00:16] <Hixie> and websocket uses message now
  50. # [00:16] <gsnedders> Philip`: I guess I can do most of that
  51. # [00:17] <webben> jgraham: nature have a clue (not all the clues, but at least a clue ;) )
  52. # [00:17] <Philip`> gsnedders: (found via http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2005JulSep/0003.html )
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  54. # [00:19] <jgraham> webben: The nature review article I want doesn't seem to have a HTML version at all (just PDF)
  55. # [00:19] <gsnedders> Now, do I bother keeping the pre-existing full-stop behaviour in w3c-compat?
  56. # [00:19] <annevk> Hixie, I noticed
  57. # [00:19] <Hixie> goo
  58. # [00:19] <Hixie> d
  59. # [00:19] <annevk> Hixie, though server sent events was already massively changed and we haven't updated yet
  60. # [00:19] <jgraham> and although it has the references online some are missing doi links and none have ADS links
  61. # [00:20] <gsnedders> Hixie, annevk, Lachy: thoughts on whether I should keep num as 1.2.4.5. in w3c-compat, or just always use 1.2.3.4.5 (per ISO 2145)?
  62. # [00:20] <annevk> I'm interested in other browsers showing some activity there first before taking a stab at it again
  63. # [00:20] <gsnedders> (i.e., do any of you care if that changes even in w3c-compat?)
  64. # [00:20] <annevk> (trying to get someone to update it, that is :) )
  65. # [00:20] <Hixie> gsnedders: no opinion, just do whatever is prettiest.
  66. # [00:21] <Philip`> zcorpan: 2d.imageData.get.smallest was replaced with 2d.imageData.get.tiny (since the aim was to test the smallest non-zero source-rectangle)
  67. # [00:21] <Hixie> gsnedders: though for w3c-compat it should follow the pubrules document
  68. # [00:21] <Hixie> annevk: understood
  69. # [00:21] <annevk> gsnedders, depending on the spec, w3c-compat might be 2., but 2.3
  70. # [00:21] <annevk> gsnedders, there's only a leading dot for the top level chapters
  71. # [00:21] <gsnedders> annevk: It's a dot after the final one for one level and for > 4 levels
  72. # [00:21] <annevk> I meant trailing
  73. # [00:22] <gsnedders> annevk: Once you get deep enough it comes back
  74. # [00:22] <annevk> I see
  75. # [00:22] <gsnedders> annevk: (see HTML 5)
  76. # [00:22] <annevk> ok
  77. # [00:22] <Hixie> that's fucked up
  78. # [00:22] <annevk> I don't think it matters though
  79. # [00:22] <Lachy> gsnedders, I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to?
  80. # [00:22] <Hixie> don't do that for non-w3c-compat :-)
  81. # [00:22] <Philip`> zcorpan: 2d.path.clip.unaffected should be using moveTo (thanks!)
  82. # [00:22] <annevk> pubrules doesn't require anything with regards to that
  83. # [00:22] <gsnedders> Hixie: Of course not — it breaks ISO 2145 anyway :P
  84. # [00:22] <annevk> (Bert actually changed the trailing dot stuff at some point)
  85. # [00:23] <Hixie> cool
  86. # [00:23] <gsnedders> ISO 2145:1978: Documentation -- Numbering of divisions and subdivisions in written documents
  87. # [00:23] <gsnedders> what a spec to have…
  88. # [00:24] <Philip`> Yours for only 34,00 CHF!
  89. # [00:24] <Philip`> s/34/36/
  90. # [00:25] <gsnedders> Far less than ISO 8601, to be fair
  91. # [00:25] <gsnedders> (that was > 200 CHF last I looked)
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  93. # [00:25] <Philip`> 126,00 now, apparently
  94. # [00:26] <Philip`> I wonder if they ever do BOGOF offers
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  98. # [00:28] <Lachy> gsnedders, is the difference between the W3C numbering and ISO numbering only that the W3C includes the trailing full stop, and the ISO doesn't?
  99. # [00:28] <gsnedders> Lachy: yeah
  100. # [00:28] <gsnedders> Lachy: There is no W3C numbering per se — it's just what the CSS WG Postprocessor implements
  101. # [00:30] <Lachy> gsnedders, looking at the HTML5 spec, the use of the trailing . looks inconsistent
  102. # [00:31] <gsnedders> Lachy: there is a trailing full-stop character at the top level and at the fourth level and deeper
  103. # [00:31] <gsnedders> Lachy: That's the complexity of the rule
  104. # [00:31] <Lachy> yeah, why?
  105. # [00:31] <gsnedders> Lachy: Ask Bert Bos.
  106. # [00:31] <Lachy> that's silly. That's probably just a bug
  107. # [00:31] <gsnedders> It certainly changed quite noticeably. I highly doubt that.,
  108. # [00:31] <gsnedders> s/,//
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  111. # [00:32] <Lachy> when did it change?
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  113. # [00:33] <gsnedders> Earlier this year?
  114. # [00:33] <gsnedders> Hixie, you remember?
  115. # [00:33] <Hixie> hm?
  116. # [00:33] <Lachy> looks like WF2 has all trailing dots
  117. # [00:33] <gsnedders> Hixie: when trailing full-stop in num changed?
  118. # [00:33] <Hixie> i don't pay attention to dots
  119. # [00:34] <gsnedders> You commented on it at the time, IIRC
  120. # [00:34] <Philip`> I remember it changed, and made one diff unexpectedly huge
  121. # [00:34] <Lachy> gsnedders, I really don't think it matters that much. It has to be a bug. Bert probably just made a change to the script and somehow managed to omit them
  122. # [00:35] <annevk> I think it was intentional
  123. # [00:35] <Lachy> annevk, why would it be?
  124. # [00:35] <annevk> but it doesn't matter
  125. # [00:35] <annevk> ask Bert
  126. # [00:35] <jgraham> Is there a reason not to pick the sane behaviour and go with it until someone complains?
  127. # [00:36] <Lachy> no-one will complain. I never even noticed it before gsnedders asked about it
  128. # [00:36] <annevk> othermaciej++ for pushing for ECMA exit criteria
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  130. # [00:37] <annevk> Lachy, and the world centers around you, uhuh
  131. # [00:37] <annevk> ;)
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  134. # [00:46] <Philip`> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2008/000397.html
  135. # [00:50] <jgraham> In case anyone was wondering which colour other people have paited the bikeshed, the LaTeX style I have to hand has no trailing dot
  136. # [00:50] <jgraham> painted
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  139. # [00:52] <othermaciej> annevk: if you'd like to agree with me on the list feel free
  140. # [00:58] <annevk> done, though it seems one of the bigger players is already on board :)
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  164. # [02:17] <kingryan> has anyone else implemented the content-type sniffing in the spec?
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  181. # [03:31] <JohnResig> weinig: hehe, my name is 'resig' ;) btw http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/35134 I updated the test suite a bunch this afternoon, might want to pull a fresh copy (fixing up some unresolved failures) let me know if you have any questions!
  182. # [03:32] <weinig> oh noes!
  183. # [03:32] <weinig> will fix
  184. # [03:32] <weinig> sorry!
  185. # [03:33] <weinig> JohnResig: I think "xHTML|*#root3 xHTML|div svg *|circle" is still incorrect
  186. # [03:33] <weinig> circle1 should be allowed
  187. # [03:34] <JohnResig> weinig: one sec, I chatted with boris about this
  188. # [03:34] <weinig> ok
  189. # [03:39] <JohnResig> weinig: it seems to make sense to me - I'm double-checking. The one case that I fixed in that test was where a default namespace was actually provided - in that case the result should be *just* "circle1"
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  193. # [03:41] <weinig> JohnResig: sorry
  194. # [03:41] <weinig> JohnResig: you were saying?
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  196. # [03:41] <JohnResig> weinig: it seems to make sense to me - I'm double-checking. The one case that I fixed in that test was where a default namespace was actually provided - in that case the result should be *just* "cir
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  198. # [03:41] <JohnResig> oops
  199. # [03:42] <JohnResig> *just* circle1
  200. # [03:42] <weinig> why just circle1?
  201. # [03:42] <weinig> svg should be interpreted as *|svg in this case
  202. # [03:43] <JohnResig> since when a default namespace is provided (when the resolver returns "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml") it should limit it to that namespace - the other case, that the test also handles, is when the resolver returns undefined as the default namespace - in that case it should probably be "*|svg" - which is what I'm double-checking on right now.
  203. # [03:48] <weinig> JohnResig: no default namespace is provided though
  204. # [03:49] <JohnResig> weinig: "Good Namespace" resolvers 1, 3, 5, 7 return a default namespace if null is passed in
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  206. # [03:50] <weinig> right, I think this was for number 2
  207. # [03:50] <JohnResig> correct - which is what I mentioned - that you and I think it should be equal to *|svg
  208. # [03:50] <JohnResig> and it's what I'm double-checking on now
  209. # [03:50] <weinig> I see
  210. # [03:51] <JohnResig> I had discussed it with bz earlier, I just wanted to verify our talk
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  216. # [04:35] <Hixie> wtf is frank smoking
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  218. # [04:52] <weinig_> JohnResig: receive verification? :)
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  225. # [05:32] <Hixie> why won't apple take my money, othermaciej
  226. # [05:32] * Hixie has been trying to update his ipod for 2 days now
  227. # [05:35] <jruderman> wait, doesn't the update fix a bunch of security holes? they're making you pay for a security fix?
  228. # [05:36] <jruderman> i'm going by http://blog.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2008/07/a_bakers_dozen_security_update.html
  229. # [05:46] <Hixie> the only part of the update i care about is the part that gives me a public key that i can use to verify signed software
  230. # [05:47] <Hixie> which i guess is a "security fix" in the same sense that being under house arrest is a "security fix" for the people in the house
  231. # [05:47] <Hixie> (this feature is being marketed as "app store")
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  235. # [06:07] <Hixie> this has to be the most botched launch of the year
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  238. # [06:29] <Hixie> oooh, it started downloading
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  244. # [07:07] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  245. # [07:07] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
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  257. # [08:14] <othermaciej> Hixie: if you'd like to send your money direct to me instead I'd accept it
  258. # [08:15] <Hixie> hah
  259. # [08:16] <Hixie> do i also get the stuff i would get through the normal channels? :-)
  260. # [08:20] <othermaciej> oh, you want to get stuff for your money
  261. # [08:20] <othermaciej> how selfish
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  263. # [08:54] <Hixie> holy crap
  264. # [08:54] <Hixie> undocumented unexpected bug fix in ipod touch 2.0 software
  265. # [08:55] <Hixie> unicode font that includes U+263A!
  266. # [09:01] * Hixie wonders why safari doesn't support Link: headers with rel="icon"
  267. # [09:18] <Hixie> hey the music player also takes video now
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  271. # [09:28] <Hixie> good god
  272. # [09:28] <Hixie> is frank for real?
  273. # [09:29] <Hixie> calling firefox "bastard browser from hell" is so not professional
  274. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> dude seems to be in a world of his own
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  276. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I guess you reopened Bug 5830 because of latest mail from Philip Jägenstedt about cue ranges?
  277. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> hmm, this is weird. I'm trying to use html5lib to parse the HTML5 spec, read in from the web (instead of a local filesystem copy). Sometimes it works, but sometimes it seems to get only part way through and then just quits -- without emitting any error.
  278. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> when it quits, I seem to end up with a truncated version of the source, which if I serialize it, looks like, e.g.:
  279. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> </td><td> There is a <a href="#ltquerygt" title="url-query">&lt;query&gt;</a>
  280. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> component, but it is empty. The question mark in the resulting value
  281. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> is the prefix</td></tr></tbody></table></div></body></html>
  282. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> is there another python HTML parser I can use?
  283. # [09:54] <Hixie> the philip and david mails
  284. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I see
  285. # [09:58] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  286. # [10:35] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Can you report that as a bug please? I have an idea what the problem is but can't look right now
  287. # [10:44] <jgraham> (fwiw I suspect it works if you read the whole thing off the network up front)
  288. # [10:49] <othermaciej> Hixie: frank who?
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  291. # [11:13] <Lachy> othermaciej, Frank Ellermann on public-html-comments http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/2008Jul/0013.html
  292. # [11:16] <Lachy> othermaciej, I think I may have a better solution to the NSResolver issue.
  293. # [11:17] <weinig> JohnResig: you around?
  294. # [11:17] <Lachy> If I make it a DOMString that uses the @namespace syntax, then browsers can use their existing parsers from CSS, it shifts the case sensitivity issue from selectors api to css3-namespace, solves all the problems with the function approach and is relatively easy and familiar for authors already using namespaces in selectors
  295. # [11:18] <Lachy> weinig, what do you think about that?
  296. # [11:19] <Lachy> e.g. querySelector("x|p", "@namespace x 'http://example.com'");
  297. # [11:19] <weinig> Lachy: it might be a little cumbersome but I think it could work nicely
  298. # [11:20] <Lachy> since namespaces are a silly little edge case that authors will use relatively rarely, I don't really care that much about it being a little cumbersome
  299. # [11:20] <Lachy> but it's less cumbersome than the function
  300. # [11:21] <weinig> Lachy: way less!
  301. # [11:22] <weinig> Lachy: so the separate namespaces would be separated by ; ?
  302. # [11:22] <weinig> as in stylesheets
  303. # [11:22] <Lachy> yes
  304. # [11:23] <Lachy> and best of all, I get away with not having to define syntax and parsing requirements as I would have for the other DOMString suggestions previously raised on public-webapi
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  306. # [11:24] * Copyman is now known as Maurice
  307. # [11:25] <othermaciej> Lachy: BETTER THAN WHAT?
  308. # [11:25] <othermaciej> Lachy: THAT SEEMS OK
  309. # [11:25] <othermaciej> Lachy: oops
  310. # [11:25] <othermaciej> sorry I accidentally hit caps lock
  311. # [11:29] <Lachy> othermaciej, I wondered why you were shouting at me? :-)
  312. # [11:29] <Lachy> othermaciej, it's better than the current function approach
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  314. # [11:43] * weinig is now known as weinig|zZz
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  317. # [12:08] <Hixie> all set up now. http://junkyard.damowmow.com/329
  318. # [12:08] <Hixie> i can now go back to fixing the spec.
  319. # [12:08] <Hixie> oh good, julian took care of frank.
  320. # [12:08] * Philip` wonders who uses pi-bar as a currency
  321. # [12:09] <Hixie> valid question
  322. # [12:10] <Philip`> Oh, apparently 元 is Yuan so it's Chinese people
  323. # [12:15] <Hixie> ah
  324. # [12:18] <Lachy> Philip`, who said anything about "pi-bar"?
  325. # [12:20] <Hixie> i did
  326. # [12:21] <Lachy> where?
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  328. # [12:31] <Hixie> "all set up now. http://junkyard.damowmow.com/329"
  329. # [12:31] <Hixie> oops, forgot to remove the DHSPAM marker that my spam filter added
  330. # [12:31] <Hixie> oh well
  331. # [12:31] <Hixie> i hope frank doesn't take offence
  332. # [12:32] <Lachy> oh, I see. In the currency converter logo.
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  338. # [13:03] <takkaria> Hixie: how could you give credit to someone who's making you spell "tokenisation" wrong? :P
  339. # [13:03] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  340. # [13:03] <Hixie> eh i gave up on that months ago, the word tokenisation somehow slipped through the cracks
  341. # [13:03] <Hixie> everything else was changed a while back
  342. # [13:03] <takkaria> ah
  343. # [13:04] * takkaria sighs
  344. # [13:04] <Lachy> what? why?
  345. # [13:04] <Lachy> tokenisation is the correct spelling
  346. # [13:04] <Hixie> imho it should be spelt tokenization
  347. # [13:04] <Lachy> silly corrupted american spelling :-(
  348. # [13:05] <Hixie> er wait
  349. # [13:05] <Hixie> other way around
  350. # [13:05] <Hixie> it should be spelt tokenisation
  351. # [13:05] <Hixie> but the spec now spells it tokenization
  352. # [13:05] <Hixie> or something
  353. # [13:05] <Hixie> i dunno
  354. # [13:05] <Hixie> whatever
  355. # [13:06] <Lachy> I see you did that mostly with color/colour too
  356. # [13:06] <Hixie> yeah
  357. # [13:06] <Hixie> not a battle worth fighting
  358. # [13:06] <Lachy> who insisted on changing it to en-US?
  359. # [13:07] <Lachy> (my specs are in en-AU and they're not changing)
  360. # [13:07] <Hixie> w3c policy
  361. # [13:07] <Hixie> good luck with that
  362. # [13:07] <Lachy> I'd be willing to settle for en-GB though
  363. # [13:07] <Lachy> the spelling is mostly the same
  364. # [13:10] <Hixie> i have plenty of petty fights already without adding spelling to the list :-)
  365. # [13:10] <Hixie> mostly i don't have a good argument against the spelling thing
  366. # [13:10] <Hixie> whereas i do on the other petty things :-)
  367. # [13:11] <mcarter> Lachy, it seems pretty trivial to come up with a list of words to transform from en-AU to en-US as part of the "publication process"
  368. # [13:11] <Lachy> I do. It's my native spelling and my editors all have en-AU spell checkers. If I were to use en-US, it would make it more difficult and easier for spelling mistakes to slip through
  369. # [13:11] <takkaria> just pretend you're a toff and you refuse to speak in American when you go fox-hunting
  370. # [13:11] <Hixie> sadly for me my editors all have en-US spelling checkers, so that doesn't work for me :-)
  371. # [13:12] <Hixie> anyway, that's enough editing for a friday night
  372. # [13:12] <Hixie> more tomorrow probably
  373. # [13:12] <Hixie> nn
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  379. # [14:32] <annevk> Hixie, "patter length"
  380. # [14:33] <Lachy> annevk, any thoughts about my @namespace proposal for selectors api?
  381. # [14:37] <annevk> it puts a dependency on CSS
  382. # [14:38] <annevk> also, it seems worse than my proposal
  383. # [14:38] <annevk> but it seems nobody is interested in mine
  384. # [14:49] <Lachy> what was your proposal? dropping it?
  385. # [14:49] <annevk> yes
  386. # [14:52] <JohnResig> weinig|zZz: I added the "circle1" that we talked about, last night
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  388. # [15:23] <annevk> seems validator.nu is back up
  389. # [15:23] <annevk> the logo remind of V for Vendetta
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  416. # [19:20] <Lachy> does anyone know if we have the use cases for scoped stylesheets documented anywhere?
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  422. # [21:30] <jgraham> Lachy: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/StyleAttribute indirectly has some of the use cases for <style scoped>
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  440. # Session Close: Sun Jul 13 00:00:00 2008

The end :)