/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-07-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jul 14 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:04] <Philip`> takkaria: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/stats/ has some fairly rubbish data including number of attributes per tag
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  7. # [00:17] <john__m> annevk: maybe you should call my client and tell them that – my attempts, obviously, failed :)
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  10. # [01:04] <annevk> Hixie, status of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-workers/current-work/ is probably wrong, it's not really a "Draft Recommendation"
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  12. # [01:09] <takkaria> Philip`: ah, thankyou
  13. # [01:09] <takkaria> Philip`: did you do that with an html5 parser?
  14. # [01:14] <Philip`> takkaria: It was with a (very old) HTML5 tokeniser
  15. # [01:14] <Philip`> though I might have hacked in something to make it respond to <script> etc correctly
  16. # [01:15] <takkaria> hmm
  17. # [01:16] <takkaria> it fits in with what I thought
  18. # [01:16] <takkaria> well, wildly guessed
  19. # [01:17] <takkaria> which was that attributes can be allocated in blocks of five
  20. # [01:17] <Philip`> I measured stuff like tag name lengths so I could preallocate enough space to make the common cases fast, but I can't find any of the results from that :-(
  21. # [01:18] <takkaria> I'd be very interested in seeing the longest attribute values found in real world content
  22. # [01:20] <Philip`> I saw tens of kilobytes in some <img alt> attributes
  23. # [01:21] <takkaria> I wonder what implementation limits there are in current Web browsers
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  25. # [01:27] <roc> we have a 2GB string limit, other than that I think we're OK
  26. # [01:28] <takkaria> roc: I've been wanting to isolate mozilla's htmlparser to do speed tests with it, you don't know of anyone who's done something similar in the past do you?
  27. # [01:28] <Philip`> Hmph, there goes my plans for a microformat that embeds base-64 DVD rips in title attributes :-(
  28. # [01:29] * takkaria chuckles
  29. # [01:29] <roc> I know people have tried to do that, but I don't have any details worry
  30. # [01:29] <roc> sorry
  31. # [01:29] <takkaria> ah, it was worth trying. thanks :)
  32. # [01:29] <roc> mrbkap might know
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  34. # [01:30] <roc> my guess is our parser is not all that fast, other than bugfixes it has not received enthusiastic maintenance for several years.
  35. # [01:30] <takkaria> hmm
  36. # [01:31] <takkaria> I was going to have a play with it at some point and see if I could coax some more html5-style handling into it
  37. # [01:31] <takkaria> probably in the autumn, though, if at all
  38. # [01:31] <roc> I would dearly love someone to come up with a super-fast from-scratch HTML5 parser that we could integrate :-)
  39. # [01:31] <roc> but mrbkap is the person to talk to about such things
  40. # [01:34] <takkaria> ok, I might have to do that later
  41. # [01:34] <takkaria> he's working on html5 comment parsing in mozilla IIRC, right?
  42. # [01:35] <takkaria> yeah, he is: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=214476
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  50. # [03:26] <Lachy> JohnResig_, another selectos api feature request. http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5864 If you know of or think of any other feature requests, particularly those that are already implemented in JS libraries, let me know
  51. # [03:43] <JohnResig_> Lachy: cool, thanks - I'll be sure to let you know
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  85. # [09:19] * weinig is now known as weinig|zZz
  86. # [09:21] <Lachy> Geez, why won't some people listen when I say no and explain why :root cannot be redefined?! http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0298.html
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  93. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> Philip`: you around?
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  101. # [11:03] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Yes, but you aren't
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  128. # [14:26] * takkaria reads the SVG WG's proposal
  129. # [14:28] <annevk> Hmm, Mozilla is not going re-use XMLHttpRequest for Workers? -- https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=437152
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  132. # [14:41] <takkaria> well, they want a case-preserving tokeniser
  133. # [14:41] <takkaria> though I can't see why, since as soon as they hit an <svg xmlns="..."> tag they hand it off to an XML processor anyway
  134. # [14:42] <takkaria> they also have a paragraph about using SVG in <img> which is mostly entirely irrelevant
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  136. # [14:43] <annevk> case-preserving the toeknizer helps with <svg viewBox=... xmlns=...>
  137. # [14:43] <annevk> tokenizer, even
  138. # [14:44] <roc> yeah that whole section about SVG integration with HTML is irrelevant
  139. # [14:44] <takkaria> it doesn't, since they want everything from "<svg" to be passed
  140. # [14:45] <roc> I think the issue is that they don't want <SVG xMLns="..."> to do something
  141. # [14:46] <takkaria> it won't do the right thing anyway, because when it gets passed to the XML parser, the resulting tree will have no namespace or whatever
  142. # [14:50] <takkaria> what they have is implementable, but I really object to having to deal with *:math and *:svg
  143. # [14:51] <annevk> I guess I'm glad I'm going away for a few weeks while everyone else can have that discussion :)
  144. # [14:51] <takkaria> heh
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  147. # [15:08] <Lachy> JohnResig_, yt?
  148. # [15:08] <JohnResig_> Lachy: yeah
  149. # [15:08] <Lachy> just a quick question about http://docs.jquery.com/Traversing/filter#expr
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  151. # [15:09] <Lachy> I don't understand the use cases for that. How is the example given: $("p").filter(".selected"); any different from $("p.selected"); ?
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  153. # [15:10] <JohnResig_> Lachy: it's not any different - but it allows for 1) queries to $("p") to be cached for later and 2) it allows you to manipulate $("p") before performing a later filter, weening down the number of elements.
  154. # [15:10] <Lachy> ok
  155. # [15:11] <annevk> document.forms.querySelector("#test")
  156. # [15:11] <JohnResig_> it's the same reason we have .find(), .not() and others
  157. # [15:11] <Lachy> I'll keep that in mind for the .matchesSelector() feature for selectors api 2
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  176. # [16:45] <takkaria> well, I'm sure I'll live to regret that
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  178. # [16:49] <howardr> where is a good html5 validator?
  179. # [16:49] <takkaria> http://validator.nu/
  180. # [16:50] <howardr> thanks
  181. # [16:50] <annevk> http://html5.validator.nu/ has the simple UI for that, fwiw
  182. # [16:52] <jmb> takkaria: works for me :)
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  229. # [19:28] <Lachy> aargh! I really don't know how to respond to this? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0302.html
  230. # [19:29] <Lachy> How can I possibly make it any clearer that the answer is no and that's final, without being rude about it?
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  233. # [19:32] <annevk> just say :root has a different purpose
  234. # [19:32] <annevk> there's :root so you can do :not(html):root > body > :context > a
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  236. # [19:34] <Lachy> I already that :root has a different purpose.
  237. # [19:35] <annevk> might be worth repeating then, giving an example
  238. # [19:38] <Lachy> but I don't know when :root is ever useful, other than as a CSS hack to filter out browsers that don't support it.
  239. # [19:39] <annevk> if it's not useful, why not reuse it then?
  240. # [19:41] <Lachy> because it would require redefining it in Selectors, getting implementers to change their existing implementations of and and make sure that all implementers have changed it before they ship support for seletors api.
  241. # [19:42] <Lachy> and given the slow process, I'm not sure we could even get :context through before they ship selectors api
  242. # [19:42] <annevk> it seems it would be a pretty trivial change to Selectors
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  244. # [19:43] <annevk> :root either matches the "context element" or in case that is not defined the "root element"
  245. # [19:43] <Lachy> plus, getting the CSS WG to agree to change an existing selector seems like it would be harder than introducing a new one. Plus, the name :root doesn't really make much sense when it doesn't have to be the root of the tree
  246. # [19:43] <annevk> it's the root of the tree you're interested in...
  247. # [19:43] <Lachy> e.g. "body :root div" would work, but that's clearly not the root of any tree.
  248. # [19:44] <annevk> it's the root of the context tree
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  250. # [19:44] <annevk> having the CSS WG make changes to a single paragraph seems easier than the effort required to put out a new draft
  251. # [19:44] <annevk> a new spec, I mean
  252. # [19:45] <Lachy> that depends. The context element may be at the bottom of the tree, depending what it's used for. e.g. for the possible matchesSelector() method, foo.matchesSelector("div>:context") isn't at the root of a tree.
  253. # [19:50] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  254. # [19:52] <annevk> I don't know how matchesSelector is supposed to work
  255. # [19:54] <annevk> for the proposals currently on the table :root can work and I think it might be easier to introduce than :context
  256. # [19:58] <Lachy> I don't think it will work. matchesSelector() returns true or false depending on whether the element matches or not.
  257. # [19:59] <annevk> for that case you don't want :context
  258. # [19:59] <annevk> and :root can just match the root element
  259. # [20:01] <Lachy> what? why wouldn't that case want :context?
  260. # [20:01] <annevk> why would it?
  261. # [20:02] <annevk> how is :context different from *?
  262. # [20:02] <Lachy> in that particular case, it probably makes no difference
  263. # [20:03] <Dashiva> What if it's div > :context > span?
  264. # [20:03] <Lachy> but I still don't get how the name :root fits the purpose of this selector anyway.
  265. # [20:03] <annevk> Dashiva, that would never match the :context element itself
  266. # [20:04] <Dashiva> But it could match something or nothing
  267. # [20:04] <annevk> Lachy, are you bikeshedding over a name?
  268. # [20:05] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.255.103.90) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  269. # [20:05] <Lachy> annevk, I'm just trying to stop others from arguing with me over the name I chose.
  270. # [20:05] <annevk> Dashiva, sure, but that's besides the point of matchesSelector
  271. # [20:05] <Lachy> becuase :root doesn't work or make sense
  272. # [20:05] <annevk> Lachy, I don't think you've shown that :root doesn't work
  273. # [20:05] <Lachy> I clearly did.
  274. # [20:06] <annevk> you did?
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  277. # [20:06] <Dashiva> I figured it was a "Is the hassle and incompatability from redefining :root worse than the hassle from defining :context" thing
  278. # [20:07] <Lachy> yes. and neither you nor Brad or Andrew on www-style have put forth convincing arguments for why :root should be reused.
  279. # [20:07] <annevk> I'd appreciate a pointer to evidence
  280. # [20:07] <Lachy> see www-style
  281. # [20:07] <annevk> I read www-style
  282. # [20:08] <annevk> :root seems easier to fit to this new purpose and doesn't really have a use without it anyway
  283. # [20:08] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0299.html
  284. # [20:08] <annevk> and the name works good enough
  285. # [20:08] <annevk> (that e-mail is marked as visited)
  286. # [20:08] <Lachy> so re-read it.
  287. # [20:09] <Lachy> it's confusing because if it's redefined, then in scoped stylesheets it will allow things like <style scoped>body.foo :root>div { ... }</style>, and that doesn't make sense cause it's not the root element.
  288. # [20:09] <annevk> I just did, I don't think your arguments are compelling
  289. # [20:10] <Lachy> sure they are, you're being silly.
  290. # [20:10] <annevk> that doesn't really seem productive
  291. # [20:11] <Philip`> If people are not compelled by the arguments, clearly the arguments are not compelling
  292. # [20:11] <Lachy> I'm not being compelled by their arguments either
  293. # [20:11] <Dashiva> Sounds like a job for... consensus-man
  294. # [20:12] <Philip`> I suggest dice
  295. # [20:12] <Lachy> so far, the only reason put forth has been ":root is mostly useless, so let's just redefine it to something that doesn't make sense"
  296. # [20:12] <Lachy> --> not a compelling argument!
  297. # [20:13] <annevk> I said that it was easier to redefine :root than to introduce a new pseudo-class as a separate specification
  298. # [20:14] <annevk> Also, the way you phrase the "only reason" is clearly way to biased to your own opinion for third parties to draw conclusions from
  299. # [20:14] <bradee-oh> Hixie: Acid3 doesn't think Mac IE 5.1 has javascript :(
  300. # [20:14] <Lachy> annevk, of course. We don't want third parties mistakenly beleiving your arguments are in any way compelling. :-)
  301. # [20:15] <annevk> I also think reusing :root makes sense and I actually believe that re-using :root for scoped style sheets was part of the original goals having talked to glazou
  302. # [20:15] <annevk> though I may recall incorrectly
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  310. # [20:33] * annevk tries to make a more compelling case for :context
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  315. # [20:48] * Lachy wonders how many times annevk is going to keep apologising for adding NSResolver to selectors api
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  317. # [20:50] <Lachy> ok, so what should I make this feature string be? hasFeature("Selectors-API", "1.0");? Do I need to distinguish between implementations that choose to support NSResolver and those that don't?
  318. # [20:50] <Lachy> (I don't want to, I want to keep it as simple as possible)
  319. # [20:51] <annevk> Lachy, as long as it takes for someone to kill it
  320. # [20:51] <annevk> and the whole concept of it, that is
  321. # [20:52] <othermaciej> I think you should make either NSResolver or the replacement namespace resolution feature non-optional
  322. # [20:52] <othermaciej> optional features suck
  323. # [20:53] <othermaciej> but in general I agree on only one feature string
  324. # [20:54] <annevk> I agree that the namespace feature should never have been made optional
  325. # [20:54] <annevk> it should just have been removed
  326. # [20:54] <Lachy> othermaciej, the only reason I made it optional was because IE8 refuses to ship with support for the NSResolver, and I wanted to at least define sensible behaviour for them.
  327. # [20:55] <Lachy> so could I make it required, and still say that if implementations still don't support it, that they should show a NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR anyway?
  328. # [20:55] <Lachy> annevk, I would have removed it, but Mozilla wants it.
  329. # [20:55] <annevk> that's optional
  330. # [20:56] <othermaciej> removing would have been ok too
  331. # [20:56] <annevk> Mozilla is not the only player and so far they haven't really put forward any compelling cases
  332. # [20:56] <othermaciej> saying what to do if you violate a requirement of the spec seems pointless
  333. # [20:56] <Lachy> if I remove it and they still ship, then we're stuck with having to define whatever they ship with.
  334. # [20:57] <annevk> again, Mozilla is not the only player
  335. # [20:57] <othermaciej> if content starts depending on the resolver part of the feature, then it's not really optional
  336. # [20:57] <annevk> you're not saying we're stuck with defining what Microsoft ships with
  337. # [20:57] <Lachy> hmm, good point.
  338. # [20:57] <othermaciej> if content does not depend on it, then it doesn't matter what Mozilla ships with
  339. # [20:59] <Lachy> ok. Please raise these arguments on the mailing list and I'll deal with it tomorrow.
  340. # [20:59] <Lachy> othermaciej, you made a reasonably good case to use :scope.
  341. # [21:01] <Lachy> should I still refer to it in the spec as the "context element" (or contextual reference element that I have in my local draft), or find a more appriate name that aligns with :scope?
  342. # [21:01] <othermaciej> "scope element"
  343. # [21:01] <Lachy> ok
  344. # [21:01] <Lachy> I'll update it now and send in a new copy.
  345. # [21:01] <othermaciej> surprisingly, my naming debate entry seems to be more productive than most of the other content on the thread
  346. # [21:02] <Lachy> LOL :-D
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  348. # [21:02] <Lachy> Bjoern and Hixie's comments were also productive
  349. # [21:03] <Lachy> I'm still waiting for a clarification from Bert, cause I didn't understand where he was coming from.
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  372. # [23:24] <gsnedders> Hixie: FWIW, I agree with Julian (sp?) about the requirement for an opaque HTTP-like string for WebSockets
  373. # [23:26] <jruderman> Hixie: annevk says https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=445166 is invalid per html5. is that intentional on your part?
  374. # [23:27] <annevk> someone should fix XML instead
  375. # [23:27] <gsnedders> jruderman: to answer on behalf of Hixie, it's because you can't rely upon external DOCTYPEs being read by XML processors, thereby meaning there's no point in allowing any entities as they can't be relied upon
  376. # [23:27] <annevk> fixing all the APIs around it doesn't scale long term
  377. # [23:27] <gsnedders> jruderman: (beyond those that are defined in XML itself)
  378. # [23:27] <jruderman> how about just including the same entities that HTML includes?
  379. # [23:28] <gsnedders> jruderman: See above. That needs a DOCTYPE.
  380. # [23:28] <annevk> in all of XML or just for innerHTML?
  381. # [23:28] <annevk> (note that HTML now has over 2000 entities)
  382. # [23:28] <gsnedders> for innerHTML it'd be silly to make it different to normal XML
  383. # [23:29] <annevk> well, that's one POV
  384. # [23:29] <jruderman> increasing compatibility between text/html and application/xhtml+xml isn't silly
  385. # [23:30] <gsnedders> They'll always have to be incompatible though. There's no point in pretending the two are.
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  387. # [23:31] <annevk> it seems better to change XML to get more predefined entities, but that may be a hard battle
  388. # [23:31] <Hixie> gsnedders: which requirement? (re websocket)
  389. # [23:32] <Hixie> jruderman: yes, it is intended to work the same way as any xml content (that doesn't declare a dtd)
  390. # [23:33] <gsnedders> Hixie: "Read the first 85 bytes from the server. If the connection closes before 85 bytes are received, or if the first 85 bytes aren't exactly equal to the following bytes, then fail the Web Socket connection and abort these steps." for one
  391. # [23:33] <gsnedders> annevk: Yeah, in some ways we need that for RSS (people just blindingly using HTML content without escaping it, often just causing errors purely because of entities)
  392. # [23:34] <annevk> it's called XML5, but only has blog traction
  393. # [23:34] <Hixie> gsnedders: what's wrong with that?
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  395. # [23:34] <gsnedders> That was on the list of things to help with over the summer, annevk, but too far down to be reached, I suspect
  396. # [23:34] <gsnedders> Hixie: I'll send a long email once I get home, but I mostly agree with Julian until then :)
  397. # [23:35] <Hixie> ok, but bear in mind that the main requirement from me is that the handshake be resilient
  398. # [23:35] <gsnedders> Yeah, sure
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  400. # [23:35] <Hixie> leaving holes in the handshake through which you can pass inconvenient material wouldn't work
  401. # [23:35] <Hixie> i am in fact disappointed as to how much flexibility we already have
  402. # [23:38] <Hixie> jesus, the svgwg's proposal is longer than the entire checkin i made to support svg
  403. # [23:39] <annevk> apparently it addresses more than just the syntax issue
  404. # [23:40] <othermaciej> link?
  405. # [23:41] <Hixie> public-html
  406. # [23:41] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/att-0179/svg-html-proposal.html
  407. # [23:41] <Hixie> feedback from apple would be very interesting and would inform my response
  408. # [23:43] <roc> the entire section "Use of SVG Resources in HTML and CSS" is irrelevant and should be dropped
  409. # [23:44] <othermaciej> yeah it has nothing to do with this topic
  410. # [23:44] <othermaciej> I do not uinderstand the effect of the tokenizer changes
  411. # [23:44] <othermaciej> *understand
  412. # [23:44] <annevk> takkaria commented on that already
  413. # [23:44] <Hixie> well one big effect is killing performance
  414. # [23:45] <Hixie> hsivonen_ told me before going on vacation that he strongly objected to anything that involved making the tokeniser case-preserving because it would just kill his performance by order(s) of magnitude
  415. # [23:45] <othermaciej> I'm not sure what they are meant to do
  416. # [23:45] <othermaciej> are they trying to implement XML parsing in the HTML tokenizer formalism?
  417. # [23:46] <gsnedders> Why would that kill perf. though? Surely it's just a question of where you do the case-normalisation?
  418. # [23:46] <roc> I actually doubt that it would kill performance
  419. # [23:47] <roc> anyone who wants to round-trip HTML source (we do) will have to preserve case somewhere anyway
  420. # [23:47] <annevk> gsnedders, if you create an integer for the element during tokenization to match on during tree building it would be quite different if tokenization required preserving case
  421. # [23:48] <Hixie> his problem is that he normalises all strings to IDs, and having to do his normalisation in different ways for different tokens is crazy, as i understand it
  422. # [23:48] <gsnedders> ah
  423. # [23:48] <Hixie> he does case-preserving for roundtripping by remembering indexes into the original source
  424. # [23:48] <Hixie> which bypasses the entire problem
  425. # [23:48] <roc> then he can use that info to do the case-sensitive comparisons the SVG people want
  426. # [23:49] <Hixie> you have to do this for every single token
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  429. # [23:50] <othermaciej> WebKit makes no effort to preserve case when parsing text/html
  430. # [23:51] <othermaciej> so it's certainly not the case that everyone has to preserve case someday
  431. # [23:51] <othermaciej> the html and xml parsers both intern atoms for tag names, either converting to lowercase or preserving case
  432. # [23:51] <othermaciej> would probably be a hassle to change that decision to be made late
  433. # [23:52] <othermaciej> instead of determined by whether it is the html or xml tokenizer
  434. # [23:52] <othermaciej> if that is indeed required
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  436. # [23:52] <Hixie> that appears to be what is required
  437. # [23:52] <Hixie> but i haven
  438. # [23:52] <Hixie> 't studied it in detail yet
  439. # [23:52] <Hixie> and do not have an opinion of my own at this time
  440. # [23:53] <annevk> since they require parsing using an XML parser for the bits where it matters it seems to be a performance optimization at "best"
  441. # [23:53] <othermaciej> their ideas for fallback mechanisms both don't work
  442. # [23:53] <roc> seems to me the only place where case-sensitivity *matters* is the case-sensitive check for math/svg tag names and "xmlns" attribute
  443. # [23:53] <othermaciej> (at least as proposals for fallback in the current generation of UAs)
  444. # [23:54] <Hixie> wait where does the xml parser fall into this
  445. # [23:55] <annevk> the bit that says "Create a new XML parser"?
  446. # [23:55] <Hixie> woah
  447. # [23:55] <Hixie> well that's not going to fly
  448. # [23:55] <Hixie> we have a requirement that you be able to implemnt html5 without an xml parser
  449. # [23:55] <roc> why?
  450. # [23:56] <Hixie> because having to have two parsers just to poke at some microformats is a little excessive
  451. # [23:56] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@dhcp-0016812761-1c-df.client.law.harvard.edu) ("The computer fell asleep")
  452. # [23:56] <roc> eh
  453. # [23:57] <roc> all browsers are going to have XML parsers in them
  454. # [23:57] <roc> most platforms have one
  455. # [23:57] <Hixie> browsers aren't the only implementations of html5
  456. # [23:57] <Hixie> in fact right now they're in the minority :-)
  457. # [23:57] <roc> like I said, most platforms have one
  458. # [23:57] <jcranmer> roc: and drop support for DOS?
  459. # [23:57] <Philip`> It doesn't seem like it'd be that infeasible to implement an XML-fragment (minus doctype etc) parser as an extra HTML5 tree constructor mode
  460. # [23:58] <Hixie> that's probably how i would spec it if we did this
  461. # [23:58] <Hixie> but that seems like a lot of excess work for no good benefit
  462. # [23:59] <Hixie> how do they handle xml parse errors?
  463. # [23:59] <Hixie> i guess i should read this thing
  464. # [23:59] <roc> I don't see why they actually need to make tokenization case-sensitive
  465. # Session Close: Tue Jul 15 00:00:00 2008

The end :)