/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-07-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jul 15 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Dashiva> Someone suggested it was because they didn't want <SVG XMLNS in their lap
  4. # [00:00] <othermaciej> their proposal for XML parse errors seems to be, when you hit one you close all open XML element and resume parsing as HTML at the same character position
  5. # [00:00] <othermaciej> which seems like a weird compromise between draconian and tolerant
  6. # [00:00] <roc> Dashiva: they wouldn't get it that, because that wouldn't render anything
  7. # [00:01] <roc> The XML parser would create an <SVG> element with no namespace, and the author tries again
  8. # [00:01] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@192.80-203-77.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  9. # [00:01] <Hixie> they require <a> in svg to be written <svg:a>
  10. # [00:01] <Hixie> as i understand it
  11. # [00:02] <Hixie> this proposal seems to somewhat fail to achieve the goal maciej put forward
  12. # [00:02] <Hixie> of providing for svg the same level of author-friendliness as html has
  13. # [00:03] <roc> that goal is 100% incompatible with the SVG WG's goal of strict XML parsing
  14. # [00:03] <Hixie> yes
  15. # [00:03] <gsnedders> yay! simple consensus!
  16. # [00:04] <Hixie> wait, this proposal requires html in svg to be marked up as xhtml, too
  17. # [00:06] <gsnedders> oh yuk.
  18. # [00:07] <annevk> last thing I read about that was to embed text/html HTML through CDATA or something, similar to Atom
  19. # [00:07] <annevk> I didn't like it too much
  20. # [00:08] <roc> I don't think that's really a big deal
  21. # [00:08] <jgraham> CDATA? For real?
  22. # [00:08] <Hixie> this proposal would also totally break this page http://www.laroseweb.com/calcs/fans.php
  23. # [00:08] <gsnedders> It works, sure, and it would be compat. with SVG/XML, but it seems illogical within HTML
  24. # [00:09] <Hixie> it would knock out the stylesheet and the script
  25. # [00:09] <roc> many things make HTML in <foreignObject> less than ideal
  26. # [00:10] <annevk> Hixie, it would fail on &mathml;
  27. # [00:10] <Hixie> oh, true
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  30. # [00:11] <jgraham> roc: I guess HTML in <foreignObject> will be one of the most useful features if the syntax doesn't suck so much that no one can get it right
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  32. # [00:11] <roc> it really only works for fixed-size objects
  33. # [00:11] <annevk> aren't most of the HTML in <foreignObject> cases addressed by SVG effects through CSS?
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  36. # [00:12] <roc> yes
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  38. # [00:12] <roc> one of the main goals of SVG effects through CSS is to get around the fact that <foreignObject> prevents reasonable layout
  39. # [00:12] <annevk> I would expect SVG in HTML to be mostly used for iconic images and logos
  40. # [00:12] <roc> diagrams
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  42. # [00:12] <roc> if you want to send a diagram in email it's going to be the only way
  43. # [00:14] <Hixie> bbiab
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  46. # [00:17] <takkaria> I don't really have an opinion either way on how to do svg-in-html; even implenting an xml fragment parser in the html parsing algorithm wouldn't be that much of a code burden
  47. # [00:18] <takkaria> it wouldn't be great, but it's doable
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  49. # [00:18] <annevk> would it be more work than what you have so far?
  50. # [00:18] <takkaria> I very much doubt it, really
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  52. # [00:19] <takkaria> it just multiplies the number of testcases needlessly, I guess
  53. # [00:22] <howardr> does anyone know any good irc channels on js?
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  55. # [00:22] <takkaria> I would much prefer just making sure implementations can export the SVG tree as well-formed XML, really, because that seems like by far the least effort on anyone's part
  56. # [00:22] <roc> irc.mozilla.org has #js, not sure if it's good :-)
  57. # [00:23] <takkaria> (though I'm just repeating what I said in my reply now, so I'll go back to fixing my parser...)
  58. # [00:23] <Dashiva> howardr: #javascript on efnet
  59. # [00:25] <howardr> thanks
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  62. # [00:38] <gsnedders> Any feelings on handling of <!--begin-toc--><em>foo<!--end-toc-->bar?
  63. # [00:38] <jcranmer> a comment in the middle of a word? :-P
  64. # [00:38] <gsnedders> (with regards to the spec-gen, that is)
  65. # [00:39] <gsnedders> I feel like throwing a fatal error if the start and end comments don't have the same parent
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  69. # [00:42] <annevk> gsnedders, just do whatever is easiest for weird stuff
  70. # [00:42] <annevk> (until we complain :) )
  71. # [00:56] <gsnedders> Well, either I just let the behaviour be weird (everything after until the em tag closes vanishes), or I just throw a fatal error
  72. # [00:57] <gsnedders> I think the latter behaviour is more desirable
  73. # [00:57] <gsnedders> anyhow, g'nite
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  82. # [01:20] <Lachy> if scoped stylesheets were changed to be evaluated only in the context of the scoped tree, rather than the whole document, the :scope would still be useful because it allows you to select the scope element and it's children with the child combinator
  83. # [01:21] <Lachy> it would only remove the need for :scope when used in conjunction with the descendant combinator, in most cases.
  84. # [01:22] <annevk> if selectors would work that way re-using :root makes even more sense
  85. # [01:22] <annevk> and the sole advantage of :root as I demonstrated in my e-mail goes away
  86. # [01:22] <annevk> advantage of :scope, I should say
  87. # [01:22] <Lachy> maybe we could allow for both options
  88. # [01:23] <annevk> over engineering?
  89. # [01:23] <Lachy> no
  90. # [01:23] <annevk> yes
  91. # [01:23] <Lachy> no
  92. # [01:23] <Hixie> :root should match the root element and that's all
  93. # [01:23] <Hixie> don't overload it with random other functionality
  94. # [01:24] <othermaciej> I don't see why changing the meaning of :root in some cases is better than adding :scope for those use cases
  95. # [01:24] <Lachy> there were a few cases where the ancestor elements outside the scope are useful, as I gave some examples of already
  96. # [01:24] <othermaciej> it would still need a change to the Selectors spec
  97. # [01:25] <othermaciej> and unless there are cases where you want to refer to either the document root or the scope node interchangeably depending on context, it doesn't seem helpful to use a single pseudo-class for both
  98. # [01:25] <annevk> I was just saying that if we change selectors to not match outside the subtree it would be over engineering to also keep the current solution
  99. # [01:25] <Lachy> new version of the spec http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jul/att-0025/Overview.html
  100. # [01:25] <Lachy> using :scope now
  101. # [01:25] <jcranmer> whee, discussion of the scoped-stylesheet debate
  102. # [01:25] <annevk> but since the current solution is better it seems good to not introduce the one where you need to change selectors
  103. # [01:27] <Hixie> selectors should match outside the scoped subtree imho
  104. # [01:27] <annevk> doing anything else changes selectors
  105. # [01:28] <annevk> afaict
  106. # [01:28] <jcranmer> I still don't see why
  107. # [01:28] <annevk> because selectors are run in the context of a document
  108. # [01:28] <jcranmer> well, the idea of scoping is that you're explicitly limiting scope
  109. # [01:29] <Hixie> the element doesn't suddenly lose its parent just because you are scoped to it
  110. # [01:29] <jcranmer> which to me implicitly limits context as well
  111. # [01:29] <Hixie> if you style elements that are inside <Aside> elements, they should still have those styles even if the <Aside> is outside your scope
  112. # [01:29] <jcranmer> it doesn't limit it, it just makes it portable
  113. # [01:29] <jcranmer> s/limit it/loses its parent/
  114. # [01:30] <Lachy> I think they should apply to the whole document too. It should be possible to take a stylesheet that normally applies to a whole document, but then just restrict the set of elements it applies to, without altering which elements match.
  115. # [01:30] <Lachy> that's only possible with matching outside of the subtree is true.
  116. # [01:31] <jcranmer> AFAICT, the primary use case is for when the author of a subsection does not have access to the style of the whole page
  117. # [01:31] <jcranmer> which makes matching outside the scope pointless
  118. # [01:31] <annevk> my use case was including some local styles for a blog entry
  119. # [01:31] <jcranmer> right
  120. # [01:31] <Lachy> but, there does seem to be some demand for the other situation too, and so maybe if those use cases are justified, an attribute on the style selement could specify whether the context was the whole document or the subtree
  121. # [01:32] <annevk> i do have access to the whole page :)
  122. # [01:32] <jcranmer> I'd end up having to <root of scope> <rest of selector> the entire thing
  123. # [01:32] <annevk> jcranmer, why?
  124. # [01:32] <jcranmer> annevk: to limit the styles properly of course
  125. # [01:33] <Lachy> only when you're using the descendant selector
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  127. # [01:33] <annevk> jcranmer, if you needed to do that the scoped attribute would have no effect, but it does
  128. # [01:33] <jcranmer> of course, I think we can sidestep the entire argument by having the author point out which model he would like to use
  129. # [01:34] * jcranmer heads to supper
  130. # [01:34] <Lachy> <style scoped context="document"> or <... context="scope">
  131. # [01:34] <annevk> not changing selectors seems the most straightforward path and is already how, e.g. getElementsByClassName works
  132. # [01:35] <annevk> well, the definition, hah, it doesn't actually matter of course there :/
  133. # [01:38] <Hixie> with :scope you don't need any of this
  134. # [01:38] <Hixie> you can just stick :Scope on the front of every selector and be done with it
  135. # [01:39] <annevk> yup
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  138. # [01:46] <Lachy> Hixie, yeah, I agree, but people are complaining about having to do that.
  139. # [01:46] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  140. # [01:47] <annevk> there's always people who disagree with something
  141. # [01:47] <Lachy> I know, but I don't like that. Why can't everyone just agree with everything I say?
  142. # [01:48] * annevk shrugs
  143. # [01:50] <Hixie> Lachy: "waah"
  144. # [01:50] <Hixie> Lachy: "I have considered your feedback but decided to not do this for v1."
  145. # [01:51] <Lachy> what?
  146. # [01:51] <Lachy> where did I say that?
  147. # [01:52] <Hixie> you didn't
  148. # [01:52] <Hixie> i'm saying that's how you should respond
  149. # [01:52] <Lachy> oh
  150. # [01:52] <Hixie> in response to the "waah" from people
  151. # [01:53] <Lachy> ok.
  152. # [01:54] <Lachy> for some issues, it's just not worth it though. It's sometimes easier to give in than to continue putting up with whinging.
  153. # [01:54] <Hixie> no
  154. # [01:54] <Hixie> never let whinging make you make suboptimal decisions
  155. # [01:54] <Lachy> ok
  156. # [01:55] <Hixie> as spec writers people for the next 100 years or more are going to rely on our decisions
  157. # [01:55] <takkaria> Hixie: btw, on your comments about hsivonen's parser earlier, if the tokeniser was only switched into case-preserving mode "in foreign content", I don't think there'd be much if any performance hit
  158. # [01:55] <Hixie> that is a huge responsibility
  159. # [01:55] <Lachy> Hixie, that's right. So I have to be sure that I'm making the right decisions.
  160. # [01:56] <Lachy> sometimes that's difficult.
  161. # [01:56] <Hixie> often :-)
  162. # [01:56] <Hixie> takkaria: maybe, i don't know what his parser looks like
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  164. # [01:57] <takkaria> I've looked at it, and that seems to be the case
  165. # [01:57] <takkaria> not that would make the SVG people happy anyway
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  171. # [02:04] <Hixie> why does no software handle multigigabyte files well
  172. # [02:04] <Hixie> sigh
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  174. # [02:05] <Lachy> what kind of file do you have that is multigigabyte, unless it's video or something?
  175. # [02:05] <Hixie> .csv file
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  178. # [02:13] * jcranmer points out the simple solution again
  179. # [02:13] <Hixie> there's a simple solution to dealing with multigigabyte csv files? :-)
  180. # [02:14] <takkaria> is fgets() not enough?
  181. # [02:15] <jcranmer> Hixie: no, to the scoped style discussion
  182. # [02:15] <jcranmer> make an attribute on the element and let authors decide
  183. # [02:15] <Hixie> adding an attribute seems like bad design
  184. # [02:15] <Hixie> why is :Scope not enough?
  185. # [02:16] <jcranmer> because I'd prepend it to every selector then
  186. # [02:16] <Hixie> takkaria: writing little scripts to process the data is what i've done, but it sucks that i can't use real spreadsheet tools
  187. # [02:16] <Hixie> jcranmer: so?
  188. # [02:16] <jcranmer> the key word there is "every"
  189. # [02:16] <jcranmer> if there's boilerplate for everything, then maybe the decision should be looked at again
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  191. # [02:16] <Hixie> jcranmer: to be honest i don't believe you :-) i mean, i believe that you think you would, but i think in practice you wouldn't at all end up doing that.
  192. # [02:17] <Hixie> jcranmer: for example if you have styles for elements that are in links, i don't see why it matters if the link is inside the scope or not
  193. # [02:17] <takkaria> Hixie: I'd have thought excel would manage it, but if not, then I don't know what hope any other spreadsheet tools have
  194. # [02:17] <Hixie> i don't have office
  195. # [02:18] <jcranmer> OOo?
  196. # [02:18] <Hixie> but i doubt either numbers or the openoffice spreadsheet tool can handle a few dozen megabytes, let alone more than 2 gigabytes
  197. # [02:19] <jcranmer> I'm going out on a limb here and guessing you're not using FAT
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  199. # [02:19] <Hixie> um no
  200. # [02:19] <Hixie> NFS
  201. # [02:19] <jcranmer> hmm, how could I guess ;-)
  202. # [02:19] <Hixie> does anyone still use FAT?
  203. # [02:19] <roc> yes
  204. # [02:19] <Hixie> wow
  205. # [02:19] <roc> All CF cards
  206. # [02:19] <jcranmer> my old, *old* computer
  207. # [02:20] <jcranmer> anyone who uses floppies
  208. # [02:20] <roc> so *you* still use FAT
  209. # [02:20] <Hixie> i don't have any CF cards
  210. # [02:20] <jcranmer> roc: I don't use that computer
  211. # [02:20] <jcranmer> it's my parents
  212. # [02:20] <jcranmer> '
  213. # [02:20] * takkaria uses CF cards :(
  214. # [02:21] <roc> I bet most USB keys use FAT too
  215. # [02:21] <Hixie> don't have any of those either :-)
  216. # [02:21] <roc> and probably Sony's memory sticks
  217. # [02:21] <roc> and SD
  218. # [02:21] <Hixie> SD?
  219. # [02:21] <roc> if you don't have a digital camera, then I'll be impressed
  220. # [02:21] <jcranmer> Hixie: what about your brain?
  221. # [02:21] <Hixie> i don't have a digital camera
  222. # [02:21] <takkaria> you have an iPod, but if you're a Mac user, you probably don't use FAT there either...
  223. # [02:22] <roc> now yu
  224. # [02:22] <Hixie> yeah my ipod is HFS+, i believe
  225. # [02:22] <roc> now you're just showing off
  226. # [02:22] <Hixie> i have an iSight and an external iSight
  227. # [02:22] <Hixie> but those don't have storage
  228. # [02:22] * jcranmer would not be suprised if an appliance in Hixie's house used FAT
  229. # [02:23] <jcranmer> if not, I'm sure the computers at the airport checkin line use them
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  231. # [02:23] <jcranmer> maybe the ATM as well
  232. # [02:23] <Hixie> i expect my girlfriend's camera uses flash, but i don't know what storage it uses (she uses USB to get the data off)
  233. # [02:23] <Hixie> i used an ATM once in the last 12 months. :-)
  234. # [02:24] * Hixie recently discovered this when he audited his bank records to make his budget for the coming months
  235. # [02:24] <Hixie> er, s/uses flash/uses FAT/
  236. # [02:24] <jcranmer> hmm, Hixie said nothing about flying...
  237. # [02:24] <Hixie> i flew three times in the last year, i think
  238. # [02:24] <Hixie> well, three times two
  239. # [02:25] <Hixie> and the experiecne is worse each time
  240. # [02:26] <Hixie> anyway
  241. # [02:26] * Hixie goes back to defining Pipes
  242. # [02:26] <Hixie> if anyone can find a better name for the PipeEnd object, let me know
  243. # [02:27] <othermaciej> MessagePort
  244. # [02:27] <roc> yeah Port
  245. # [02:27] <Hixie> ooo
  246. # [02:28] <othermaciej> (I like that better as general terminology than Pipe too)
  247. # [02:29] <roc> it's useful to be able to talk about the connection itself
  248. # [02:29] <roc> although usually the connection isn't exposed as a first-class object
  249. # [02:30] <annevk> only the bridge between the "ports" is exposed
  250. # [02:30] <Hixie> right now only hte ports are exposed
  251. # [02:30] <Hixie> but you create them as ap air
  252. # [02:30] <Hixie> as a pair
  253. # [02:31] <Hixie> so there is an object that represents a pair of ports when they are first created
  254. # [02:31] <Hixie> called a Pipe right now
  255. # [02:32] <roc> Unix pipes block on write if the reader isn't reading
  256. # [02:32] <roc> if you're doing something asynchronous then you might want a more general term for clarity
  257. # [02:32] <Hixie> no blocking here
  258. # [02:32] <Hixie> yeah
  259. # [02:32] <Hixie> i've renamed PipeEnd to MessagePort
  260. # [02:33] <Hixie> what terminology goes with Ports for the object that holds two ports?
  261. # [02:33] <roc> MessageChannel for the connection object?
  262. # [02:33] <Hixie> that works
  263. # [02:34] <Hixie> or just Channel
  264. # [02:34] <Hixie> since this is the constructor you'll call
  265. # [02:34] <Hixie> var x = new Channel();
  266. # [02:34] <Hixie> x.port1; x.port2;
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  268. # [02:35] <Hixie> maybe Channel and ChannelPort? Rather than Channel and MessagePort?
  269. # [02:36] <othermaciej> ChannelPort seems less clear
  270. # [02:36] <Hixie> yeah
  271. # [02:36] <Hixie> though frankly, few people will deal with the name MessagePort
  272. # [02:37] <roc> I'd use MessageChannel to be honest
  273. # [02:38] <othermaciej> Channel does seem a bit more vague
  274. # [02:38] <Hixie> MessageChannel it is
  275. # [02:38] <annevk> MessageChannel is also more consistent with postMessage
  276. # [02:39] <Hixie> ok well this terminology is much better now
  277. # [02:39] <Hixie> thanks
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  336. # [10:04] <Hixie> if you have a channel with ports 1 and 2
  337. # [10:04] <Hixie> and you try to send port2 down port1
  338. # [10:04] <Hixie> it should obviously fail
  339. # [10:04] <Hixie> because the semantics of that are just crazy weird
  340. # [10:04] <Hixie> but if you send port1 down port1
  341. # [10:04] <Hixie> should it also throw?
  342. # [10:05] <Hixie> it would be equivalent to having a rope and throwing one end to the other end
  343. # [10:05] <Hixie> "here's a channel!"
  344. # [10:05] <Hixie> pretty useless, since why wouldn't you just create a new MessageChannel() for yourself
  345. # [10:05] <Hixie> i would guess most cases of port1 going down port1 will be mistakes
  346. # [10:05] <Hixie> so it makes sense to fail big
  347. # [10:05] <Hixie> at the point of error
  348. # [10:06] <Hixie> instead of having hard-to-debug problems later
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  353. # [10:24] * gDashiva is getting postMessage endpoint-passing flashbacks
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  356. # [10:26] <Hixie> gDashiva: hm?
  357. # [10:26] <gDashiva> It just sounds so similar
  358. # [10:27] <Hixie> it is more than similar
  359. # [10:27] <Hixie> it's the same thing
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  361. # [10:27] <gDashiva> That would explain it then
  362. # [10:33] <Hixie> roc and mjs came up with the better names
  363. # [10:33] <Hixie> pipe become message channel
  364. # [10:33] <Hixie> and end point and pipe end become message port
  365. # [10:34] <Hixie> s/become/became/
  366. # [10:34] <Hixie> i'm doing dvorak-layout typos while typing on a qwerty keyboard
  367. # [10:34] <Hixie> that's freaky
  368. # [10:35] <Hixie> that suggests that when i do typos, i'm hitting the keys my brain intended to hit
  369. # [10:35] <Hixie> but that my brain doesn't have a good idea of what keys to hit, and that it makes mistakes based on locality of the keyboard layout
  370. # [10:35] <Hixie> but that the mistakes it makes aren't necessarily related to the keyboard layout it is actually typing on
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  375. # [10:49] <Lachy> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/07/14/ie8-ajax-navigation.aspx
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  379. # [11:10] <Hixie> wish they'd say what they actually implemented :-)
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  381. # [11:12] <Hixie> just the hashchanged event apparently
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  387. # [11:26] <gDashiva> The third comment makes me sad.
  388. # [11:34] <Hixie> is that the one about how their markup "sucls"?
  389. # [11:34] <Hixie> sucks
  390. # [11:34] <Hixie> rather
  391. # [11:34] <Hixie> it made me sad too
  392. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> I'm pretty sure this is picture of the guy who wrote that comment:
  393. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/79/The_Simpsons-Jeff_Albertson.png
  394. # [11:37] <annevk> you wouldn't say
  395. # [11:40] <Lachy> when did Comic Book Guy get named Jeff Albertson?
  396. # [11:41] <Lachy> oh, apparently way back in 2005.
  397. # [11:43] <Lachy> that comment did have a point about the DOCTYPE though. The PDF contains "<!DOCTYPE>"
  398. # [11:46] <annevk> Hixie, in MessagePort various definitions and references have mismatching titles, at least onmessage and ownerWindow
  399. # [11:47] <Hixie> fixed onmessage a while back
  400. # [11:47] <Hixie> fixed ownerWindow just now, thanks
  401. # [11:56] <annevk> Hmm, isn't another reason that the tokenizer is made case-insensitive so that xmlns and xmlns:* attributes can be used outside the context of the subtree?
  402. # [12:02] <takkaria> heh, "Having <svg:a> be interpreted by a legacy user agent as <html:a> is perhaps not that critical, you can even add a 'src' attribute to have the link work in both contexts, so it can be used as a sort of fallback.
  403. # [12:05] <annevk> Hixie, just hit refresh to verify, seems the second ownerWindow ref is still wrong
  404. # [12:05] <gDashiva> takkaria: svg in html, appendix C
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  406. # [12:08] <Hixie> anne: should be ok now
  407. # [12:08] <annevk> lol, few days before the E3 Sony says it can't be bothered by Nintendo and now they announce all kinds of competitive features
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  412. # [12:40] <annevk> what is DOMFrameContentLoaded?
  413. # [12:40] <annevk> hmm, seems to be some Firefox event
  414. # [12:40] <Hixie> ok, i defined postMessage(m, p, o)
  415. # [12:41] <Hixie> let me know if it's separate enoug
  416. # [12:41] <Hixie> h
  417. # [12:44] <Hixie> ok what else do i need for workers
  418. # [12:44] <Hixie> i guess i need to split Window
  419. # [12:45] <Hixie> i love how everyone was saying "use a separate spec!"
  420. # [12:45] <Hixie> but i've basically ended up having to do tons of work in html5 proper anyway
  421. # [12:46] <annevk> Hixie, message is not dispatched on an element and is not dispatched on document either (re: introduction)
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  423. # [12:47] <annevk> Hixie, I think the latest is that it's dispatched on window
  424. # [12:47] <Hixie> hm i just moved that example up
  425. # [12:47] <Hixie> i didn't edit it :-)
  426. # [12:48] <annevk> that might explain things :p
  427. # [12:49] <Hixie> fixed
  428. # [12:54] <annevk> yeah, for Workers you need to split Window into main thread only and multithreaded functionality
  429. # [12:55] <annevk> but that would've been the case if you kept it in the spec or not
  430. # [12:55] <Hixie> sure
  431. # [12:56] <Hixie> i'm just amused that the workers spec is going to be about one page long of non-boilerplate material
  432. # [12:56] <Hixie> but that the total number of changes will have been dozens of pages
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  437. # [13:21] <annevk> lol, http://www.p01.org/releases/DHTML_contests/files/DEFENDER_of_the_favicon/
  438. # [13:25] <Hixie> wow he is so completely disqualified from ever suggesting anything to html5 again :-P
  439. # [13:29] <Hixie> ok Window is split
  440. # [13:29] <Hixie> that was easy
  441. # [13:29] <Lachy> that's clever, but really difficult to play
  442. # [13:30] <Lachy> even if I zoom my screen right in to see it, it's just not enough pixels
  443. # [13:31] <Philip`> I can't play the game without the page scrolling annoyingly
  444. # [13:31] <annevk> Hixie, why is frames not under self-reference?
  445. # [13:31] <Hixie> because workers can't have frames
  446. # [13:32] <Lachy> Philip`, make your window bigger so it doesn't have scroll bars
  447. # [13:32] <annevk> Hixie, but frames is just a useless alias for self and window
  448. # [13:32] <annevk> Hixie, it's nothing special
  449. # [13:32] <Hixie> indeed
  450. # [13:32] <Hixie> so why have it on workers?
  451. # [13:32] <annevk> why have self on workers?
  452. # [13:32] <Philip`> Lachy: I'd have to make the window bigger than my screen, which is kind of awkward
  453. # [13:33] <Hixie> annevk: because it makes more sense than window
  454. # [13:33] <Lachy> Philip`, get a bigger screen with a higher resolution.
  455. # [13:33] <Philip`> Lachy: That's expensive :-p
  456. # [13:34] <Lachy> it's essential that you have a screen resolution of 1920x1200 so you can play a game of 16x16px
  457. # [13:34] <gDashiva> If I reduced my resolution to 640x480, maybe I'd be able to see what was happening
  458. # [13:34] <annevk> Hixie, still most people use window and don't use self
  459. # [13:34] <virtuelv> Philip`: you can use WASD to move instead -- won't scroll then
  460. # [13:34] <Philip`> If you're on OS X, just use the ctrl(?) + mouse-wheel thing to zoom in on the play area
  461. # [13:35] <gDashiva> annevk: If anything, self is often shadowed to work around "this" voodoo
  462. # [13:35] <Lachy> Philip`, yes
  463. # [13:35] <Philip`> virtuelv: It does scroll, since those keys make Opera select links on the page
  464. # [13:35] <virtuelv> Philip`: disable one-key shortcuts
  465. # [13:35] <Hixie> annevk: right, that's why i'm keeping window too
  466. # [13:35] <Lachy> Philip`, write a user style sheet that hides everything else on the page
  467. # [13:36] <Philip`> virtuelv: But then shift-G stops working, which is why I turned on one-key shortcuts in the first place
  468. # [13:36] <Lachy> what does Shift+G do?
  469. # [13:36] <virtuelv> Lachy: toggle images
  470. # [13:36] <Philip`> Lachy: Toggle stylesheets
  471. # [13:36] <virtuelv> ah, stylesheets it was
  472. # [13:37] <virtuelv> Philip`: you could always reassign keys to your own liking :)
  473. # [13:37] <Philip`> virtuelv: I'm far too lazy for that
  474. # [13:37] <Philip`> and far too indecisive
  475. # [13:38] <Lachy> Philip`, just temporarily disable it. I had to disable "Search for text when I start typing" so I could play it too.
  476. # [13:38] <Philip`> I can cope with preference checkboxes, but if I get offered a million actions to map onto any permutation of a million keystrokes, I get too confused to do anything at all :-(
  477. # [13:39] <Lachy> Philip`, yeah, it's a well known problem that Opera's keyboard shortcut configuration is too complex
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  529. # [17:13] <billyjack> interesting to see that Kaazing guys will be doing a session on the WebSocket interface at AjaxWorld
  530. # [17:13] <billyjack> http://www.sys-con.com/read/609412_p.htm
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  555. # [20:09] <csarven-> http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0182.html
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  578. # [21:53] <tusho_> Huh. Why is the sanitizer allowing <p> in <h1>?!
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  580. # [22:16] <gsnedders> People are crazy.
  581. # [22:17] <gsnedders> This is what defining how people have made the real world has taught me.
  582. # [22:17] <Hixie> no kiding
  583. # [22:17] <Hixie> kidding
  584. # [22:18] <gsnedders> Content-Type: text/html;image/gif;image/jpeg; Charset=iso-8859-1;text/javascript
  585. # [22:19] <jmb> gsnedders: nice! which one is it really? :)
  586. # [22:19] <gsnedders> jmb: Dunno, haven't looked :)
  587. # [22:20] <gsnedders> text/html, it's http://www.ecsrefining.com/
  588. # [22:21] <gsnedders> you just ignore most of the stuff as invalid parameters, I expect
  589. # [22:21] <Hixie> do browsers get the right charset?
  590. # [22:21] <Hixie> does html5?
  591. # [22:22] <gsnedders> It looks to be pure US-ACSII the actual page
  592. # [22:22] <gsnedders> It should be treated as windows-1252
  593. # [22:23] <gsnedders> So, yeah, HTML 5 and everything copes fine
  594. # [22:24] <gsnedders> text/html; charSet=gb2312;charset=ISO-8859-1 makes me more interested
  595. # [22:25] <gsnedders> That is gb2312 really
  596. # [22:25] <gsnedders> http://www.mediachina.net/ FWIW
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  608. # [23:33] <Hixie> what's better. window.closing becoming true when the thread is being shut down, or window.active becoming false when the thread is being shut down.
  609. # [23:33] <Hixie> the latter allows for while(active) { ... }
  610. # [23:34] <Hixie> the former allws for if (closing) return;
  611. # [23:36] <othermaciej> will the cancellation design make it meaningful to even ask?
  612. # [23:37] <Hixie> i figure when the thread gets canceled we should set this flag, fire an unload event at the next available opportunity, and wait a couple of seconds to see if the thread shuts down cleanly, and if it doesn't, kill it forcibly.
  613. # [23:37] <Hixie> seems better to at least give the thread a chance to clean up after itself rather than just always killing it forcibly
  614. # [23:39] <othermaciej> POSIX has the notion of registering cancellation cleanup handlers
  615. # [23:39] <othermaciej> I'm not sure if "run for a few more seconds" is a useful design point
  616. # [23:39] <Hixie> that's what the unload event is for
  617. # [23:39] <othermaciej> particularly if those few seconds might be in blocking I/O (assuming blocking IO operations are cancellation points)
  618. # [23:40] <Hixie> POSIX doesn't have to worry about the cancelation cleanup handlers trying to do blocking I/O or trying to solve checkers on a 64x64 board.
  619. # [23:40] <Hixie> we do.
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  621. # [23:40] <Hixie> i don't see how we can _not_ have a timeout
  622. # [23:40] <Hixie> since we have to basically assume the workers are hostile
  623. # [23:41] <othermaciej> I guess what I'm saying is, I think it would be better to terminate normal flow execution of the thread (if any) immediately, fire the cancellation-related event, and then have a timeout
  624. # [23:41] <othermaciej> having the thread keep running means you need two timeouts
  625. # [23:41] <Hixie> that's a bit extreme, you might be in the middle of a 10ms transaction when you get terminated
  626. # [23:42] <othermaciej> and sprinkling your code with "am I cancelled" checks would be ugly and in some cases not really possible anyway
  627. # [23:42] <Hixie> i guess i don't mind having two timeouts if you think we need it, but i certainly think we need at least to give the main code the opportunity to run to completion before we kill it
  628. # [23:42] <othermaciej> that misses the point of cancellation
  629. # [23:43] <othermaciej> if the main code could be trusted to run to completion in reasonable time, you could just send the thread a message to kill itself
  630. # [23:43] <Hixie> i think you're assuming that workers are going to always be running non-stop code
  631. # [23:43] <othermaciej> no, I'm assuming they might be
  632. # [23:43] <othermaciej> cancellation is most important for the case where they are
  633. # [23:44] <othermaciej> if they aren't you can use messages to establish a protocol to stop the thread's activity
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  635. # [23:44] <Hixie> i'm imagining many workers will be mostly idle and will be mostly doing very short event handler type code -- receive an event, store the data in the database. And for those cases, you absolutely never want to abort in the middle of the handler, since that might corrupt your database or lose data.
  636. # [23:44] <othermaciej> aborting would not corrupt your database because they have transactional semantics
  637. # [23:45] <othermaciej> the database operation must either complete or roll back
  638. # [23:45] <Hixie> assumign they do it right, sure
  639. # [23:45] <Hixie> you'll still lose data
  640. # [23:45] <Hixie> i don't see any reason not to give those handlers time to complete, they won't be taking long anyway.
  641. # [23:46] <othermaciej> if you can afford to wait for them, then you can just postMessage to the thread and ask it to stop further activity
  642. # [23:46] <othermaciej> if you absolutely want to guarantee that any pending I/O finishes, you have to do that anyway
  643. # [23:46] <othermaciej> a timeout gives you the worst of both worlds
  644. # [23:47] <othermaciej> no guarantee the I/O will complete, and no guarantee the thread stops promptly
  645. # [23:47] <Hixie> that's what the unload event is for
  646. # [23:47] <othermaciej> if you need to register an event handler to ensure that cancellation is clean, then there's no benefit to your main code continuing to run
  647. # [23:47] <Hixie> i don't understand what you are proposing or why
  648. # [23:50] <othermaciej> I'm proposing that cancellation stops whatever is executing right away, and invokes any registered cancellation handlers with a timeout limit
  649. # [23:51] <Hixie> how does that not cause dataloss in the case of a thread having just received a message asking it to store data?
  650. # [23:51] <othermaciej> and I explained why - letting the main code continue to run defeats the most important use case for cancellation, which is a thread that's busy doing a long computation
  651. # [23:51] <othermaciej> the other way causes data loss too, if the message has not been dispatched yet
  652. # [23:52] <othermaciej> (unless the thread registers a cancellation handler, but I guess there is no way to explicitly drain the message queue)
  653. # [23:52] <Hixie> unload would be added to the queue of events, it would be the last fired event.
  654. # [23:52] <othermaciej> you shouldn't cancel a thread if you sent it a message that you actually need to be processed
  655. # [23:52] <Hixie> the author isn't the one canceling the thread
  656. # [23:52] <Hixie> the user is
  657. # [23:52] <othermaciej> you should ask it to finish itself instead
  658. # [23:53] <othermaciej> so this is for leaving the page, not for an explicit cancellation API?
  659. # [23:53] <Hixie> we're talking about the user closing the window or something like that, yes
  660. # [23:55] <othermaciej> well for code on the main thread, there's no specific timeout for currently running code defined, and unload gets to run with no specific timeout defined
  661. # [23:55] <othermaciej> (as well as beforeunload which has the opportunity to cancel the close / leave operation)
  662. # [23:55] <Hixie> the spec doesn't define a timeout, but there is a timeout
  663. # [23:56] <Hixie> and arguably the spec should define that (though the precise number would be up to the UA)
  664. # [23:56] <othermaciej> in the case of Safari the timeout would be the general slow script timeout
  665. # [23:56] <Hixie> right
  666. # [23:57] <othermaciej> anyway I see that this is a trickier design problem than what I thought you were talking about (API for thread cancellation)
  667. # [23:58] <Hixie> ah ok
  668. # [23:58] <Hixie> the API for thread cancellation is simple
  669. # [23:58] <Hixie> just send an event and be done with it
  670. # [23:58] <Hixie> i don't know that i'll even add anything explicit for that
  671. # [23:58] <othermaciej> you need to be able to cancel a thread that is blocked or in the middle of computation
  672. # [23:59] <Hixie> maybe just the "close()" method of the message port objects
  673. # [23:59] <othermaciej> postMessage conventions can't do that
  674. # [23:59] <Hixie> why?
  675. # [23:59] <Hixie> i mean, why is that necessary
  676. # Session Close: Wed Jul 16 00:00:00 2008

The end :)