/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-07-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jul 17 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:12] <gsnedders> Hixie: I now have a copy of the spec-gen that is quicker than the W3C CSS WG Postprocessor!
  7. # [00:13] <gsnedders> 0m3.752s
  8. # [00:14] <Philip`> On a many-gigahertz multi-core processor?
  9. # [00:15] <gsnedders> On a 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo MBP :)
  10. # [00:15] <Philip`> That's an awful lot of clock cycles just to process a text file
  11. # [00:15] <gsnedders> It can certainly be made quicker still
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  32. # [01:21] <Hixie> gsnedders: let me know if there are things i should fix in html5 to get around insanity
  33. # [01:21] <Hixie> gsnedders: also, i have a feature request for you to hate me for
  34. # [01:21] <Hixie> gsnedders: is there any way i can get the web workers spec's cross-references to reference into the html5 spec? :-)
  35. # [01:22] <Hixie> gsnedders: wow, how'd you make it so quick?
  36. # [01:22] <Hixie> that's awesome!
  37. # [01:25] <annevk> I wonder if that's using the C parser rather than html5lib
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  39. # [01:56] * tommorris_ is now known as tommorris
  40. # [02:04] <Hixie> someone just contacted me asking if there was anywhere he could tell us how stupid he thought html5 was
  41. # [02:04] * Hixie pointed him to all the usual channels (irc, forums, blog, mailing list, etc)
  42. # [02:07] <jruderman> i think html5 is this stupid: -----><----
  43. # [02:09] <Hixie> wow, not stupid at all
  44. # [02:09] <Hixie> i'm impressed
  45. # [02:10] <Hixie> i think html5 is at least this stupid: ----->| |<--
  46. # [02:10] <franksalim> jruderman, my line broke such that i saw that as arrows pointed in opposite directions
  47. # [02:10] <Hixie> (hopefully mine didn't line break for anyone)
  48. # [02:10] <franksalim> infinitely stupid
  49. # [02:10] <Hixie> or negatively!
  50. # [02:11] <franksalim> hey yeah
  51. # [02:11] <Hixie> and the science gets done, and you make a neat gun, for the people who are still alive.
  52. # [02:13] <jcranmer> I think the CSS debate over whether or not roc's bling is outside the scope is about as pointless as this sentence
  53. # [02:13] * jcranmer looks for a way to scrub the dots off of the i's
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  57. # [02:17] <Hixie> jcranmer: U+0131 :-)
  58. # [02:17] <jcranmer> in that case,
  59. # [02:18] <jcranmer> I thınk the CSS debate over whether or not roc's blıng ıs outsıde the scope of CSS ıs about as poıntless as thıs sentence
  60. # [02:18] <Hixie> :-)
  61. # [02:19] <jcranmer> I was going to do the stupid with the arrows thing, until I realized it could be interpreted in two different manners
  62. # [02:19] * Hixie scrubs his morning's stupidity off html5
  63. # [02:20] <jcranmer> --><-- could mean that there's no distance, so, ergo, it could be as stupid as nothing, or not stupid at all
  64. # [02:20] <jcranmer> unless you think that nothing is stupid
  65. # [02:20] <takkaria> this debate seems both stupid and pointless. :)
  66. # [02:20] <jcranmer> precisely
  67. # [02:21] <jcranmer> or something like that
  68. # [02:23] <Hixie> should a thread have a way to self-terminate, or should it only terminate when all of the channels connecting into it have themselves closed?
  69. # [02:23] <Hixie> if it can self-terminate, should that send an explicit unload through those channels?
  70. # [02:24] <Hixie> if it does, what about channels that the other end doesn't realise point into a worker?
  71. # [02:24] <Hixie> hmm
  72. # [02:27] <jgraham> Having threads able to self terminate sounds nice but I'm tired and should have been asleep some time ago so I'm not going to think about it now :)
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  77. # [03:23] <takkaria> http://www.marcozehe.de/2008/07/16/wordpress-26-brings-a-lot-of-accessibility-improvements/ makes me sad
  78. # [03:23] <takkaria> aria introduced aria-required so that screenreaders know that an attribute is required
  79. # [03:23] <takkaria> er, text input, you know what I mean
  80. # [03:23] <takkaria> WF2 has its own required attribute
  81. # [03:25] <takkaria> and now aria-required is getting deployed widely, when instead the wf2 one could be getting deployed widely instead
  82. # [03:26] <takkaria> not worth lingering on, I guess, but it's a bit sad
  83. # [03:32] <annevk> bolt-on accessibility prolly pays better consultancy fees
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  89. # [04:25] <Hixie> hmm
  90. # [04:25] <Hixie> how should we join a named worker
  91. # [04:26] <Hixie> we could have a method joinOrCreateNamedWorker(name, url) that looks for a worker named name, and if it fails to find one, creates one from URL url and gives it that name
  92. # [04:26] <Hixie> or we could have the same, but indexed on url _and_ name
  93. # [04:27] <Hixie> or we could just index on url
  94. # [04:27] <Hixie> we couldn't just have joinNamedWorker() because that would have a race condition if two threads tried to create the same shared worker at the same time
  95. # [04:27] <Hixie> hmmmmm
  96. # [04:30] <othermaciej> Hixie: in the threading context people might expect "join" to mean something else
  97. # [04:30] <othermaciej> Hixie: are named workers really necessary?
  98. # [04:30] <othermaciej> they remind me of my hate for named frame targetting
  99. # [04:31] <Hixie> one of the requests was for shared threads so that e.g. multiple gmail windows don't all try to mash the client's database at the same time
  100. # [04:31] <Hixie> i'm open to other solutions
  101. # [04:31] <Hixie> but i think it makes sense to have a single thread accessible by multiple windows that otherwise wouldn't know about each other
  102. # [04:32] <Hixie> (the namespace would definitely be per-origin)
  103. # [04:32] <othermaciej> I guess the alternative would be to have an alternate mechanism for windows from the same domain to send each other messages without directly knowing of each other
  104. # [04:32] <Hixie> then they have to negotiate a leader, which seems complicated in the face of a user closing windows
  105. # [04:33] <Hixie> i'd rather not have web authors have to implement windows-networking-style "browser elections"
  106. # [04:33] <othermaciej> I guess named threads are less bad if the namespace is separate for every origin
  107. # [04:33] <othermaciej> part of the problem with named frame/window targetting is the lack of namespace control
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  109. # [04:34] <Hixie> should we make the namespace be not only per-origin but per-script-url?
  110. # [04:34] <Hixie> or is that excessive
  111. # [04:35] <othermaciej> seems excessive
  112. # [04:35] <othermaciej> one thing that concerns me is that having this as the sole mechanism for messaging between instances of a web app in different windows will lead to web apps spawning workers when they don't really need them, except for messaging
  113. # [04:35] <othermaciej> actually I guess you can use LocalStorage for messaging
  114. # [04:36] <othermaciej> (just no way to pass a MessagePort through it)
  115. # [04:36] <Hixie> are there other uses for messaging across windows? i'm happy to add some sort of same-origin, disconnected-window postMessage() mechanism
  116. # [04:36] <Hixie> but i haven't heard of any requests to do that
  117. # [04:36] <othermaciej> LocalStorage plus the change event already provides that
  118. # [04:36] <Hixie> if it's just sharing state, yeah
  119. # [04:37] <Hixie> how we design a solution depends on the problem, but i don't really know the problem on this one
  120. # [04:37] <othermaciej> updating UI state in multiple instances in response to a user action
  121. # [04:37] <othermaciej> would be one use case
  122. # [04:37] <othermaciej> but I think LocalStorage is fine for that
  123. # [04:37] <Hixie> yeah
  124. # [04:38] <Hixie> or, frankly, websocket
  125. # [04:38] <Hixie> since you'd want that to work cross-machine too
  126. # [04:38] <othermaciej> depends on the type of change
  127. # [04:39] <othermaciej> if it is a preference type setting you may want it to be per-machine
  128. # [04:39] <Hixie> true
  129. # [04:39] <othermaciej> alternately you may not want to wait for a network round trip to update locally
  130. # [04:39] <othermaciej> or you may be offline
  131. # [04:40] <othermaciej> is there a way to run a script by URL in an unnamed worker after it is already running?
  132. # [04:40] <othermaciej> (if so you only really need an API to get a worker by name and you don't have to care if it was created or retrieved)
  133. # [04:40] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  134. # [04:41] <othermaciej> well joinOrCreateNamedWorker(name, url) lets you run a new script in an existing worker
  135. # [04:41] <othermaciej> (I presume from the method signature)
  136. # [04:41] <othermaciej> but only a named one
  137. # [04:41] <Hixie> the idea was that it would either join one in progress, or fetch url, create a worker, run that script, and join that worker
  138. # [04:41] <Hixie> it wouldn't run url in the worker if it joined it
  139. # [04:42] <Hixie> (i'm looking for better names if you have any ideas)
  140. # [04:42] <Hixie> (right now i'm using createNamedWorker)
  141. # [04:42] <othermaciej> that seems like a potentially confusing design
  142. # [04:42] <Hixie> agreed
  143. # [04:42] <Hixie> not sure what is better though
  144. # [04:43] <Hixie> (btw, we might cut all this joining stuff out altogether in due course, but let's for now assume we're trying to address this use case)
  145. # [04:43] <Hixie> (that way we have a clear extension path even if we do decide to cut it from v1)
  146. # [04:43] <othermaciej> I twitch whenever you say "join" because in threading terminology, to join a thread means to block and wait for it to terminate
  147. # [04:44] <Hixie> these aren't threads, as you pointed out :-P
  148. # [04:44] <Hixie> what's a better term
  149. # [04:44] <Hixie> ?
  150. # [04:44] <othermaciej> "get"
  151. # [04:44] <othermaciej> (since you're just retrieving an ID)
  152. # [04:44] <Hixie> ok
  153. # [04:44] <othermaciej> (and it's normal for get to have "or create if needed" semantics)
  154. # [04:45] <othermaciej> (or at least not uncommon)
  155. # [04:45] <Hixie> i could call it getNamedWorker(), but then it looks weird because the two methods are createWorker() and getNamedWorker()
  156. # [04:46] <Hixie> and they are both ways to create workers
  157. # [04:46] <Hixie> (though one "gets" a worker if it can)
  158. # [04:46] <othermaciej> create always makes a new one
  159. # [04:46] <othermaciej> you could also call the other one create and not worry about it sometimes reusing
  160. # [04:46] <Hixie> (btw i was using "join" in the old tv sense of "we now join this programme, already in progress")
  161. # [04:47] <Hixie> yeah calling both create() is what my original proposal had
  162. # [04:47] <othermaciej> I think maybe there should be an object identifying a worker separate from the port which has a method to queue a script to run in the worker (by URL or source text)
  163. # [04:47] <othermaciej> then you can separate loading a script from creation
  164. # [04:48] <othermaciej> but still be able to vend the port without letting the recipient run arbitrary code in the worker
  165. # [04:48] <Hixie> that would be weird
  166. # [04:49] <Hixie> kinda like navigating a frame to a javascript: uri
  167. # [04:49] <Hixie> to make it run script
  168. # [04:49] <othermaciej> or like injecting a <script> element on a frame or calling eval() on a frame
  169. # [04:49] <othermaciej> but asynchronous of course
  170. # [04:49] <Hixie> yeah
  171. # [04:50] <Hixie> not sure we really want to go there
  172. # [04:50] <othermaciej> it just seems odd that you can only make a thread load a script when creating it
  173. # [04:50] <Hixie> just consider the script to _be_ the thread
  174. # [04:50] <Hixie> then it's not so weird
  175. # [04:50] <othermaciej> (obviously you need to at least in that case, so that it can bootstrap, but why are they tied?)
  176. # [04:50] <othermaciej> then createNamedWorker should fail if the URL doesn't match
  177. # [04:50] <Hixie> ok
  178. # [04:51] <Hixie> that makes sense
  179. # [04:51] <othermaciej> but I don't think it makes sense to say that the script *is* the thread
  180. # [04:51] <othermaciej> it's just the startup code, then the thread sits and waits for events / timers / etc
  181. # [04:51] <Hixie> well i don't say that, but that's more like how i envisage it, as opposed to a bucket you throw scripts into willy nilly
  182. # [04:53] <othermaciej> it should at least be able to load additional scripts into itself
  183. # [04:53] <Hixie> oh yes, for sure
  184. # [04:53] <Hixie> a worker can call include(url)
  185. # [04:53] <Hixie> which blocks for fetching the url and running it inline
  186. # [04:53] <Hixie> (at least, it is going to block unless someone wants it not to)
  187. # [04:54] <Hixie> (i don't really care either way, but blocking seems easiest and safe in this case)
  188. # [04:54] <othermaciej> maybe import(url) is better, since presumably it would not textually include
  189. # [04:54] <Hixie> import() it is
  190. # [04:54] <Hixie> (remind me to rename it if i end up calling it include() anyway, i haven't specced that bit yet)
  191. # [04:55] <othermaciej> sure
  192. # [05:01] <Hixie> when someone "gets" a worker, it sends an event to the worker with a port
  193. # [05:01] <Hixie> what should that even be called?
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  196. # [05:01] <Hixie> (it used to be called 'join')
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  198. # [05:03] <Hixie> it's the same message that gets fired when a worker is created in the first place, to give it the port for the channel back to its creator
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  202. # [05:34] <heycam> Hixie, is the styling on the w3 hosted copy of the spec deliberately a bit more bland now?
  203. # [05:34] <heycam> e.g. no borders/backgrounds around idl sections, or the colourful backgrounds of the element definition sections?
  204. # [05:35] <Hixie> yeah i removed the custom style sheet because the w3c pubrules say not to add custom styles
  205. # [05:35] <Hixie> noticed it while i was doing the web workers spec
  206. # [05:36] <Hixie> i wouldn't have worried too much about it except the stylesheet was like a page long, which i assume is exactly hte kind of thing the pubrules are trying to avoid
  207. # [05:36] <heycam> it's harder to read now though
  208. # [05:36] <Hixie> use the whatwg version :-)
  209. # [05:36] <heycam> and i'm sure other specs use custom stylesheets
  210. # [05:36] <Hixie> i'm hoping the w3c style sheet will have some classes added that i can hook onto
  211. # [05:36] <heycam> the w3 version's url is easier to remember :)
  212. # [05:37] <Hixie> whatwg.org/html5
  213. # [05:37] <heycam> ok that might be shorter
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  215. # [05:39] <Hixie> it's also the first hit got "html5" on google, so in firefox you can just type "html5" in the location bar and hit enter
  216. # [05:40] <Hixie> oh actually i guess it doesn't do an i'm feeling lucky search for that term
  217. # [05:40] <Hixie> weird
  218. # [05:40] <Hixie> anyway
  219. # [05:40] <Hixie> whatwg.org/html5
  220. # [05:44] <Hixie> bbiab
  221. # [05:50] <jacobolus> wow. what a useful shorter link. :)
  222. # [05:51] <jacobolus> my general method has been a google lucky search for 'html5' :)
  223. # [05:51] <heycam> google.com/search?q=html5&btnI=1 -- still a bit long :)
  224. # [05:52] <jacobolus> heycam: well for me, it’s just `go html5`
  225. # [05:52] <heycam> i wondered why my firefox was getting slow, and then i realised i had 3 copies of the html5 spec open in different windows
  226. # [05:53] <heycam> (plus about 40 other tabs)
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  234. # [06:34] <Hixie> heycam: hah
  235. # [06:35] <Hixie> right now webkit seems the most able to handle the one-page version of the html5 spec
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  243. # [07:28] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I'd really like for you to add the stylesheet back
  244. # [07:29] <MikeSmith> Hixie: as far as I cant tell, pubrules does not seems to absolutely forbid custom stylesheets
  245. # [07:29] <MikeSmith> the only thing I can find that it says is:
  246. # [07:29] <MikeSmith> "Any internal style sheets MUST be cascaded before this link; i.e., the internal style sheets MUST NOT override the W3C tech report styles."
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  267. # [09:18] <Hixie> ok i added rules for the various classes html5 uses (idl, note, issue, example, warning)
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  269. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> Hixie: cool, thanks
  270. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> we really should have some styles for all those things in the stock stylesheets, so I'll try to get them added
  271. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> quietly
  272. # [09:22] <heycam> MikeSmith, i quite like the style used on the actual w3c manual of style page
  273. # [09:22] <heycam> will the revisions to the TR stylesheets make them look like that?
  274. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> heycam: about the manual of style, you mean the aqua stuff with the blue bars?
  275. # [09:23] <heycam> MikeSmith, yeah
  276. # [09:24] <heycam> that, and using an ok non-default sans-serif font
  277. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> I don't know what the styles will look like because I will not be doing them
  278. # [09:24] <heycam> but yes the light black background thick dark blue top/bottom border style for the references i particularly like
  279. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> but that manual-of-style styles look pretty good to me too
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  281. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> anyway, I will try to get some note/example/IDL-block styles in the WD/Rec stylesheets
  282. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> we really ought to have consistent styles for those across all published specs
  283. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> for consistency
  284. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> rather N of use reinventing N different styles for it
  285. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> I just hope it can be done quietly and quickly
  286. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> rather than, say, be opened up for wider suggestions/opinions and turning into a bikeshed discussion
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  296. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> .warning { color: yellow; background: maroon; }
  297. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> interesting choice there, Hixie
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  299. # [11:08] * heycam thinks hixie has chosen colours to drive people to the whatwg version :)
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  306. # [11:42] <Lachy> I'm looking into the queryScopedSelector proposal now, and trying to figure out the pre-parsing rules for it. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008May/0058.html
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  308. # [11:43] <Lachy> but it seems to be a lot more complicated that othermaciej's proposal
  309. # [11:44] <Lachy> cause I have to handle things like commas in functional pseudos: 'div:foo(x,y), >p'
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  311. # [11:47] <Lachy> strings: a[title="foo, bar"], span[title="escaped \" quote \' marks"]
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  314. # [11:50] <Lachy> I wonder if I just define that it uses the same grammar as selectors, except that the selector production becomes:
  315. # [11:50] <Lachy> selector : combinator? simple_selector_sequence [ combinator simple_selector_sequence ]*
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  317. # [12:04] <gsnedders> Hixie: annevk was right: using the C parser (as in, lxml.html, libxml2's HTML parser)
  318. # [12:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: There are things you should fix in HTML 5, but they're needed in w3c-compat
  319. # [12:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: It should be able to create a usable version of HTML 5, as it is currently, in the w3c-compat mode
  320. # [12:05] <Hixie> send me mail or file a bug or let me know tomorrow and i'll fix them
  321. # [12:06] <Hixie> we have to make a clibhtml5 at some point
  322. # [12:06] <gsnedders> Yeah, certainly.
  323. # [12:06] <gsnedders> Philip` said on Monday last week that there was no single bottleneck now in html5lib/py
  324. # [12:06] <Hixie> did the suggestion i made scare you too much btw, or is it something you might be able to do? :-)
  325. # [12:06] <gsnedders> Hixie: Not for 1.0 :)
  326. # [12:07] <Hixie> i hope 1.1 ships soon :-D
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  328. # [12:07] <gsnedders> (but there again, the criteria for 1.0's release are more or less just being able to do HTML 5 correctly :D)
  329. # [12:07] <Hixie> :-)
  330. # [12:08] <gsnedders> 1.1 will probably be other stuff that other people from the postprocessor
  331. # [12:08] <gsnedders> 1.2 is probably when I'll start adding really new stuff like that :P
  332. # [12:09] <Hixie> i hope 1.2 ships soon :-D
  333. # [12:09] <gsnedders> :D
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  336. # [12:28] <gsnedders> Hixie: applicationcache is a dupe dfn
  337. # [12:29] <Hixie> no, one has a title="" of dom-applicationcache
  338. # [12:31] <gsnedders> No, that's not the bug :)
  339. # [12:32] <gsnedders> I'm doing too much whitespace normalisation now
  340. # [12:32] <gsnedders> <dfn>application cache</dfn> == <dfn>ApplicationCache</dfn>
  341. # [12:41] <gsnedders> Interesting.
  342. # [12:41] <gsnedders> the postprocessor removes any existing @class=seco
  343. # [12:41] <gsnedders> *secno
  344. # [12:52] <Philip`> gsnedders: The input stream is still a bit of a bottleneck, and I got reasonable improvements by rewriting a couple of its methods in C; but after that, it seemed like the rest of the time was spread around the entire tokeniser, so that whole thing would have to be rewritten in C
  345. # [12:53] <gsnedders> Then do so! :P
  346. # [12:53] <Hixie> nn
  347. # [12:53] <Philip`> (The improvement from writing the input stream in C is probably too low to be worth the cost of being a binary module)
  348. # [12:53] <gsnedders> Hixie: night
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  350. # [12:54] <Philip`> gsnedders: It'd probably be most sensible to hook in Hubbub, and maybe try feeding its tokeniser output into the Python tree builders
  351. # [12:56] <gsnedders> hmm, I want some xpath statement like //*[contains(., '[DATE')], but one that doesn't return all ancestors too
  352. # [13:03] <gsnedders> /text()[contains(., '[DATE')]/..
  353. # [13:05] <Philip`> You should use //*[foo()] where foo is a user-defined function that does what you want
  354. # [13:06] * Philip` wonders if any XPath implementations actually support user-defined functions
  355. # [13:06] <gsnedders> Is that not XPath 2?
  356. # [13:07] <gsnedders> No, it is allowed in XPath 1
  357. # [13:07] * gsnedders shrugs
  358. # [13:08] <gsnedders> /text()[contains(., '[DATE')]/.. is what the above should be
  359. # [13:08] <gsnedders> wait, //text()[contains(., '[DATE')]/..
  360. # [13:08] <gsnedders> Duh. the first / is eaten by IRC.
  361. # [13:08] * gsnedders headdesks
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  363. # [13:12] <gDashiva> gsnedders: So your problem is solved then
  364. # [13:12] <gsnedders> sure.
  365. # [13:12] <gsnedders> :P
  366. # [13:19] <gsnedders> (it's odd that this is actually quicker using xpath)
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  368. # [13:20] <gsnedders> aim for today: get HTML 5 processed in under 3s
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  370. # [13:33] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: odd that it's quicker than what?
  371. # [13:33] <MikeSmith> btw, you using lxml.etree.XPath() ?
  372. # [13:34] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: manually iterating and doing it all in Python, which is normally quicker
  373. # [13:34] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: yeah
  374. # [13:37] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: what's this tool you been working on? what's it do?
  375. # [13:37] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: The spec-gen? Basically the same as the CSS WG's Postprocessor
  376. # [13:37] <MikeSmith> ah cool
  377. # [13:37] <MikeSmith> that will be great to have
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  379. # [13:38] <takkaria> gsnedders: so you're using libxml2's html parser at the moment for it?
  380. # [13:38] <gsnedders> (half the point is just so people like me, non W3C members, can access it)
  381. # [13:39] <gsnedders> takkaria: By default it uses html5lib, but it can also use that or it's XML parser
  382. # [13:39] <gsnedders> s/'//
  383. # [13:39] <takkaria> right
  384. # [13:40] <MikeSmith> would be great to have a python interface to hubbub, through lxml or however
  385. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> takkaria: would be cool to have simple command-line utility built from hubbub
  386. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> that is, like the parse.py thing for html5lib
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  388. # [13:47] <takkaria> the idea of feeding hubbub's tokeniser through lxml's treebuilder seems to be a good one for speeding up html5lib
  389. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> takkaria: yeah
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  399. # [15:07] <hdh> Hixie: in Link type "icon", "either width string or height string start with" should read "starts"
  400. # [15:11] <Philip`> There's about a million other places where the spec has grammar issues like that
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  409. # [16:01] <gsnedders> Hixie ought to learn English.
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  413. # [16:24] <gsnedders> "If url doesn't match the <URI-reference> production, even after the above changes are made to the ABNF definitions, then parsing the URL fails with an error."
  414. # [16:25] <gsnedders> In what cases can it fail?
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  420. # [16:51] * mpt wonders what one is supposed to do to get HTML 5 sectioning elements working in IE
  421. # [16:51] <Philip`> mpt: <script>document.createElement('section')</script> should make it parse better
  422. # [16:52] <Philip`> (if you run that script some place before you use a <section> element)
  423. # [16:53] <mpt> Philip`, does that need to be done for each <section> element in the page?
  424. # [16:53] <Philip`> mpt: No - it just needs to be done once, and then IE's parser will recognise that element as being an XML-like element for the rest of the page
  425. # [16:53] <mpt> ah, neat
  426. # [16:54] <mpt> I guess the same applies to <aside>
  427. # [16:54] <Philip`> (where "XML-like" means you can do <section/> etc)
  428. # [16:54] <Philip`> Yep
  429. # [16:54] <mpt> I was expecting to find tricks like this on the wiki, but I couldn't find any authoring info there
  430. # [16:54] <smedero> There's some discussion around that method on Sam Ruby's blog: http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/2008/01/22/Best-Standards-Support
  431. # [16:55] <smedero> (sorta, scattered across the comments)
  432. # [16:55] <smedero> ahh right, and here: http://ejohn.org/blog/html5-shiv/
  433. # [16:56] <mpt> Anyone mind if I create a "For Web authors" section on the wiki that contains only that to start with? :-)
  434. # [16:57] <Philip`> That sounds quite reasonable to me
  435. # [16:58] <Philip`> as long as you note that it's an evil hack that takes advantage of IE's insanity ;-)
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  437. # [17:05] <mpt> done
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  440. # [17:07] <mpt> thanks for the tip Philip`
  441. # [17:11] <gsnedders> Can the postprocessor, _PLEASE_ be sane
  442. # [17:11] <Philip`> Thank Microsoft for implementing such a useful and obvious feature
  443. # [17:13] <gsnedders> "<!--logo-->Foo" results in the obvious output of <!--begin-logo-->\n\n <p><a href="http://www.w3.org/"><img alt=W3C height=48\n src="http://www.w3.org/Icons/w3c_home" width=72></a> <!--end-logo-->\n\n <p>Foo
  444. # [17:16] * gsnedders refuses to do the crazy after stuff
  445. # [17:20] * gsnedders finds a bug in the docs
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  449. # [17:24] <tusho> What would be an appropriate tag for "the main page content"?
  450. # [17:24] <tusho> You have <header>, <???>, <footer>
  451. # [17:29] <smedero> <section> or <article> would be appropriate depending on the type of content.
  452. # [17:29] <tusho> smedero: Multiple articles, though. (A recent posts page).
  453. # [17:30] <tusho> So: header being the generic starting cruft, ??? being the thing containing each <article>, then footer
  454. # [17:30] <tusho> <section id="content">, I suppose.
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  474. # [20:11] <hdh> I'm using <body><header/> (<article><header/>...<footer/></article>)+ <footer/></body>
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  478. # [20:40] <gsnedders> ERGH.
  479. # [20:40] <gsnedders> The docs really SUCK.
  480. # [20:40] <gsnedders> "If there is a H2 subheading under the H1 that gives the spec's status, the [STATUS] variable will be initialized from that, otherwise it will default to WD."
  481. # [20:41] <gsnedders> Actually, it isn't initalized from there, and it defaults to ED.
  482. # [20:43] <gsnedders> [LONGSTATUS] is completely and utterly undocumented
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  484. # [20:49] <gsnedders> ERGH.
  485. # [20:50] <gsnedders> http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/W3C-ED gets changed per the status by complete magic
  486. # [20:51] * gsnedders stabs stabs stabs
  487. # [20:53] * Philip` gets 13 different outputs from a single function that does a few floating-point calculations, between various compilers and compiler flags
  488. # [20:54] <Philip`> (which makes me unhappy since I want cross-platform deterministic simulations)
  489. # [20:54] <Lachy> gsnedders, the status gets acquired from the This Version link: <dd><a href="[VERSION]/">http://www.w3.org/TR/[YEAR]/ED-selectors-api-[CDATE]/</a></dd>
  490. # [20:54] <gsnedders> Lachy: Yeah, I've reverse engineered that now
  491. # [20:55] <Lachy> I reverse engineered that once before when I needed to actually change it once.
  492. # [21:03] <gsnedders> Actually, that isn't the behaviour
  493. # [21:03] <gsnedders> It just finds the first http://www.w3.org/TR/[YEAR]xxx-
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  497. # [21:11] <Lachy> gsnedders, could you make your spec generator generate all that boiler plate markup from a simpler syntax?
  498. # [21:12] <gsnedders> Lachy: how much is "all"
  499. # [21:12] <Lachy> everything in the <dl> near the top that includes This Version, Previous Versions, Editors, etc.
  500. # [21:14] <gsnedders> Lachy: What do I put in editors, previous versions, latest version? What URLs do I use for this version?
  501. # [21:14] <gsnedders> Oh lovely, "[Sorry, the postprocessor doesn't yet have the boilerplate text for this status]"
  502. # [21:16] <Lachy> gsnedders, you would need the author to provide a list of URLs, and then you just generate the link and dl markup
  503. # [21:17] <gsnedders> Lachy: It'd be easier just to have something to cut out the duplication of the URLs
  504. # [21:17] <gsnedders> and that'd cut it down quite a lot
  505. # [21:17] <Lachy> so a comment at the top that was formatted like this:
  506. # [21:17] <gsnedders> I know what you mean
  507. # [21:17] <Lachy> Selectors API
  508. # [21:17] <Lachy> WD
  509. # [21:17] <Lachy> This Version:
  510. # [21:17] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/ED-selectors-api-20080717/
  511. # [21:17] <Lachy> Latest Version:
  512. # [21:17] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/TR/selectors-api/
  513. # [21:17] <Lachy> Previous Versions:
  514. # [21:18] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-selectors-api-20071221/
  515. # [21:18] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-selectors-api-20071019/
  516. # [21:18] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-selectors-api-20060926/
  517. # [21:18] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-selectors-api-20060525/
  518. # [21:18] <Lachy> Editors:
  519. # [21:18] <Lachy> Editor Name1 (Affiliation) <user@example.com>
  520. # [21:18] <Lachy> Editor Name2 (Affiliation) <user@example.com>
  521. # [21:18] <gsnedders> Some specs don't have that format though
  522. # [21:19] <Lachy> which specs?
  523. # [21:19] <gsnedders> I'd rather have something like <!--begin-link-->http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/ED-selectors-api-20080717/<!--end-link--> that got converted into a link to http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/ED-selectors-api-20080717/ with that as its content
  524. # [21:19] <gsnedders> css3-namespace, for example
  525. # [21:19] <Lachy> yes it does
  526. # [21:19] <gsnedders> <dd><a href="http://annevankesteren.nl/contact">Anne van Kesteren</a>, Opera Software ASA</dd>
  527. # [21:19] <gsnedders> That doesn't look like that format to me :)
  528. # [21:20] <Lachy> oh, yeah, I forgot the links to the home pages.
  529. # [21:20] <Lachy> but the affiliation and email addresses are optional.
  530. # [21:20] <Lachy> that's not a problem
  531. # [21:21] <gsnedders> I just think having it all as a comment doesn't help that much more than just something to create a link
  532. # [21:21] <gsnedders> Because that cuts down most of the excess stuff in the header
  533. # [21:21] <Lachy> I just want a way to reduce as much markup as possible
  534. # [21:21] <gsnedders> Do you really touch the top that often? :P
  535. # [21:22] <Lachy> no, but it should be easy to edit when I do.
  536. # [21:22] <gsnedders> Lachy: And the current difficulty is from what? The duplication of URLs?
  537. # [21:23] <Lachy> yeah, the duplcation is a problem cause when I copy and paste to add another one, it's easy to forget to change one of the links
  538. # [21:24] <gsnedders> Yeah, and my proposal gets rid of that duplication
  539. # [21:24] <Lachy> and also creating a new spec requires too much editing
  540. # [21:25] <Lachy> marking up editor names is the most complicated for creating a spec
  541. # [21:27] <Lachy> also, the duplication in the <title> and <h1>
  542. # [21:27] <gsnedders> I'm not sure how simpler we can make editor names, though
  543. # [21:27] <gsnedders> I could add [TITLE] for that
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  545. # [21:31] <Lachy> ok
  546. # [21:36] <gsnedders> Hmm, it must be more complex than I thought
  547. # [21:36] <gsnedders> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/csswg/cssom/Overview.src.html?rev=1.67&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup
  548. # [21:37] <gsnedders> that would result in [STATUS] == REC if I were right
  549. # [21:39] <Lachy> gsnedders, why?
  550. # [21:40] <gsnedders> Lachy: first http://www.w3.org/TR/[YEAR]/xx- link
  551. # [21:40] <Lachy> the first such link is http://www.w3.org/TR/[YEAR]/WD-cssom-[CDATE]/
  552. # [21:41] <gsnedders> that's in a comment, and is certainly ignored
  553. # [21:42] <gsnedders> [STATUS] == ED for that document, the default
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The end :)