/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-07-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 23 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:17] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  4. # [00:17] <zcorpan> Hixie: i think we have to disable the forums or change forum software or do something because the spam is not maintainable and the actual usage is pretty low anyway :(
  5. # [00:18] <Hixie> pity
  6. # [00:18] <zcorpan> yeah
  7. # [00:19] <Hixie> want me to try upgrading it and see if there's anything helpful in newer versions?
  8. # [00:20] <Hixie> do you have access to the actual files btw? or did i install it in my user or something?
  9. # [00:20] <zcorpan> perhaps phpbb3 has something? i don't think 2.0.23 has anything useful over 2.0.22
  10. # [00:20] <zcorpan> i don't
  11. # [00:21] <zcorpan> afaik
  12. # [00:22] <Hixie> oh i see them, they're in my user
  13. # [00:22] <Hixie> ok looks like it's updated
  14. # [00:22] <Hixie> to 3.0
  15. # [00:22] <zcorpan> cool
  16. # [00:23] <Hixie> did it have captchas before?
  17. # [00:23] <zcorpan> yeah
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  19. # [00:26] <Hixie> want me to add this textual confirmation plugin?
  20. # [00:28] <Hixie> http://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=544007
  21. # [00:31] <zcorpan> sure
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  23. # [00:32] <zcorpan> i'm going to bed now, i'll look again tomorrow. thanks!
  24. # [00:32] <Hixie> nn
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  82. # [04:24] <MikeSmith> Hixie: in the "Coercing an HTML DOM into an infoset" section
  83. # [04:24] <MikeSmith> editorial nit:
  84. # [04:24] <MikeSmith> "Tools that cannot convey the out-of-band information using out-of-band mechanisms, or that cannot convey the DOM exact as prescribed by this specification"
  85. # [04:25] <MikeSmith> s/exact/exactly/
  86. # [04:28] <MikeSmith> also, "Form controls being associated with forms that aren't their nearest ancestor (use of the form element pointer"
  87. # [04:28] <MikeSmith> is missing closing paren character
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  90. # [04:31] <Hixie> actually it was missing an >
  91. # [04:31] <Hixie> :-)
  92. # [04:31] <Hixie> thanks
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  94. # [05:09] <takkaria> Hixie: those fixes are great, thanks
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  117. # [07:27] <hsivonen> hmm. so in www-archive Jonathan Chetwynd wants the W3C to cater to the illiterate as an accessibility issue and then cites a study that attributes his illieracy rate figure to poor schooling (not disability)
  118. # [07:27] <hsivonen> yay, I mistyped illiteracy
  119. # [07:28] <jruderman> so? accessibility isn't only about disabilities.
  120. # [07:29] <MikeSmith> illieracy is no laffing matter
  121. # [07:29] <hsivonen> jruderman: in the W3C context it is
  122. # [07:29] <hsivonen> also, the right solution to poor schooling is good schooling--not making it easier to avoid becoming literate
  123. # [07:30] <jruderman> and the right solution to blindness is not being careless with BB guns. so?
  124. # [07:33] <roc> how is accessibility for the illiterate different from accessibility for the blind?
  125. # [07:33] <roc> I guess the illiterate can't type
  126. # [07:33] <hsivonen> jruderman: are you just being provocative or are you actually equating disability and poor schooling?
  127. # [07:34] <jruderman> hsivonen: some of both
  128. # [07:34] <hsivonen> roc: accessibility for people who can't learn to read is like accessibility for the blind
  129. # [07:34] <hsivonen> roc: poor schooling in the UK is something for the UK government--not the W3C to address
  130. # [07:34] <roc> except that blind people can type and, I assume, illiterate people can't
  131. # [07:35] <roc> I'm less confused now. Somehow I'd received the impression that Jonathan wanted the W3C standards process to be accessible to the illiterate
  132. # [07:40] <hsivonen> (100% literacy of adults who don't have a learning *disability* is certainly achievable: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/literacy/ )
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  138. # [08:20] <Hixie> my own literacy is clearly waning
  139. # [08:20] <Hixie> i typed "ratio" so often earlier than i later mistyped "rather" as "ratio"
  140. # [08:24] <shepazu> hmmm... roc is gone... but I think his initial impression was correct: Jonathan does want the W3C process to directly involve people with cognitive disabilities and literacy problems
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  143. # [08:25] <shepazu> and presumably that same group of people would have to be insane, if they want to get involved in Web standards
  144. # [08:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: you just specced syntax that could be commandeered for overriding doctype sniffing over the wire :-/
  145. # [08:27] <Hixie> i'm happy to change it to something else
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  149. # [08:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you have a preference regarding new bugs vs. comments on bugs marked FIXED?
  150. # [08:40] <Hixie> not at all, just make sure the bug is reopened if you comment
  151. # [08:40] <Hixie> i don't read the bugmail, i only look at the list of open bugs
  152. # [08:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok.
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  154. # [08:43] <hsivonen> commented and reopened
  155. # [08:44] <Hixie> thx
  156. # [08:44] <Hixie> (generally speaking i think i prefer mail, fwiw)
  157. # [08:44] <Hixie> (but bugs are fine too)
  158. # [08:46] <Hixie> hsivonen: how can you avoid name clashes with a mapping function?
  159. # [08:47] <Hixie> hsivonen: can't the author just predict what attribute name you're going to use and use that himself?
  160. # [08:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: you salt the result of the mapping function with some upper-case letters.
  161. # [08:48] <Hixie> o_O
  162. # [08:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: as zcorpan pointed out, the result can't clash as the tokenizer lowercases input
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  164. # [08:48] <Hixie> oh, i see, you're assuming we don't take the svgwg's idea
  165. # [08:48] <Hixie> hmm
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  167. # [08:54] <Hixie> hsivonen: also, I don't see how the the text you have is any less vague than what the spec says
  168. # [08:54] <Hixie> hsivonen: in particular, i don't understand what is too vague about what the spec says
  169. # [08:55] <hsivonen> "Construct the DOM as if appropriate namespace declarations were in scope." what does that mean? does it mean the implementation isn't required to create synthetic declarations?
  170. # [08:56] <hsivonen> "Construct the DOM as if these were default namespace declarations." What does that mean?
  171. # [08:56] <Hixie> what's a synthetic declaration?
  172. # [08:56] <Hixie> a default namespace declaration is an xmlns="" attribute being interpreted as per [XMLNS]
  173. # [08:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: a synthetic declaration is a declaration that the parser communicates to the app but that doesn't correspond to an attribute in the source
  174. # [08:57] <Hixie> how is that different from acting as if appropriate namespace declarations were in scope?
  175. # [08:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: so does "Construct the DOM as if these were default namespace declarations. " mean that a declaration should be exposed or that it doesn't need to be exposed?
  176. # [08:58] <Hixie> i don't understand what that question means
  177. # [08:58] <hsivonen> Hixie: a parser can expose namespaced nodes to the app without exposing any declarations at all
  178. # [08:58] <hsivonen> see? it's not clear enough. :-)
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  180. # [08:59] <Hixie> i don't understand why not
  181. # [08:59] <Hixie> i don't care if the app internally shows declarations or not
  182. # [08:59] <Hixie> the whole point is that different pipelines are able/not able to show those declarations
  183. # [08:59] <Hixie> and this is saying that you should do whatever is needed by your pipeline
  184. # [09:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: right, but if I read the spec, it's not at all obvious that the position on declarations is "I don't care. Drop or synthetize at will."
  185. # [09:01] <Hixie> the spec explicitly says you can drop whatever, or construct the DOM as if the "xmlns" attributes were actual namespace declarations
  186. # [09:01] <hsivonen> Instead, the spec covers different cases and calls for "as if"s where it's not 100% clear what API behavior "as if" refers to
  187. # [09:01] <Hixie> i don't know how to make it more obvious
  188. # [09:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: you could say: "The parser may drop attributes whose name starts with "xmlns" or that are in the XMLNS namespace. The parser may expose synthetic namespace declarations to the application."
  189. # [09:04] <Hixie> well that allows all kinds of bad stuff
  190. # [09:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: what's the bad stuff?
  191. # [09:04] <Hixie> e.g. it allows dropping <embed xmlnsy> and allows putting random namespace declarations on elements that don't even match the namespaces being used
  192. # [09:04] <Hixie> the former is easy to fix
  193. # [09:05] <Hixie> but the latter is what the current text is trying to avoid
  194. # [09:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: if your position is that you don't care about the API exposure of declations, why is overdeclaring namespaces synthetically on random nodes a problem?
  195. # [09:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: fwiw, if I implement synthetic declarations, my plan was to declare the XLink namespace speculatively even when it isn't actually used
  196. # [09:06] <Hixie> what i don't care about is whether the declarations are visible or not
  197. # [09:06] <Hixie> if we're going to define a mapping, the mapping had better be a proper mapping
  198. # [09:10] <hsivonen> Hixie: how about this: "The parser may drop attributes whose name is 'xmlns', whose name starts with 'xmlns:' or that is in the XMLNS namespace. When an element node does not have a parent or the parent has a different namespace, the parser may syntethize a namespace declaration on the element node declaring the namespace of the element as the default namespace. When a declaration of the SVG namespace or the MathML namespace is synthetized this way,
  199. # [09:11] <Hixie> that cut off at "this way,"
  200. # [09:11] <hsivonen> MathML namespace is synthetized this way, the parser should also synthetize a namespace declaration that binds the prefix 'xlink' to the XLink namespace."?
  201. # [09:11] <Hixie> but that precludes taking xmlns="" attributes on random HTML nodes and turning them into real xmlns="" attributes
  202. # [09:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't mind if you allow that as well.
  203. # [09:15] <Hixie> eh screw it, i'm going to change this section into a "pass it out of band or drop it" thing, getting rid of the __ crap
  204. # [09:15] <Hixie> and will just say that whatever namespace declarations the app feels like showing or fine
  205. # [09:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: what about name munging?
  206. # [09:16] <Hixie> drop 'em
  207. # [09:16] <hsivonen> munging is easier
  208. # [09:16] <hsivonen> and makes things more obvious to someone looking at a data dump
  209. # [09:17] <Hixie> munging won't work with the svgwg's proposal
  210. # [09:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: the SVG WG's proposal has many other problems
  211. # [09:21] <Hixie> it's not clear that they're willing to fix the problems
  212. # [09:22] <hsivonen> I'd prefer not integrating it into the HTML5 parsing algorithm with the problems.
  213. # [09:24] <Hixie> so far, you're the only implementor who has indicated that you prefer the current prose
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  215. # [09:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: did I misread takkaria's comments?
  216. # [09:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: has any implementor shown preference to passing data to an XML parser a character at a time?
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  219. # [09:27] <Hixie> is andrew working a parser?
  220. # [09:27] <Hixie> so far implementors haven't said much of anything
  221. # [09:28] <Hixie> except for opera and apple presumably backing the svg's proposal (since they're on that group)
  222. # [09:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: he is. As far as I can tell, 100% of the public implementor feedback (two datapoints: takkaria and me) prefers the commented out stuff over the SVG WG's proposal
  223. # [09:30] <Hixie> (cool. which parser? do you have a link?)
  224. # [09:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: "I much prefer the HTML5 model over having to incorporate an XML parser as the SVG WG suggests" http://www.w3.org/mid/487B650D.6080803@andrewsidwell.co.uk
  225. # [09:30] <Hixie> oh i agree that he was not in favour of the svgwg proposal
  226. # [09:30] <Hixie> i didn't realise he was writing a parser
  227. # [09:31] <Hixie> anyway, let's just say that ignoring or rejecting a working group's requests is not done lightly
  228. # [09:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: Hubbub parser for the NetSurf browser
  229. # [09:31] <Hixie> oh he works in riscos?
  230. # [09:31] <Hixie> nice
  231. # [09:31] <Hixie> i had no idea
  232. # [09:32] <Hixie> it would be helpful if we had feedback from the parser writers for major browsers
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  239. # [09:57] <hsivonen> (some validator.nu virtual host are going down for maintenance. the validator functionality should be up on another server)
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  249. # [10:05] <Hixie> hsivonen: what should happen if we parse an element or attribute name with a colon in it? (notwithstanding xlink: and xml: prefixes)
  250. # [10:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: in the Infoset coercing mode? it should trigger name munging
  251. # [10:06] <Hixie> k
  252. # [10:07] <hsivonen> since it's not an XML 1.0 4th ed. plus Namespaces 2nd ed. NCName
  253. # [10:07] <Hixie> <foo:bar> would be a well-formed NCName
  254. # [10:07] <Hixie> foo: just wouldn't be bound
  255. # [10:07] <Hixie> which is a separate problem
  256. # [10:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: it would be a Name but not an NCName
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  258. # [10:08] <Hixie> oh i see what you mean
  259. # [10:08] <Hixie> but then what about the attributes that _do_ have colons?
  260. # [10:09] <hsivonen> the name that is interesting is the local name after the possible XLink adjustments
  261. # [10:10] <hsivonen> so xlink:href on an HTML element would get munged but on a foreign element it wouldn't
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  263. # [10:11] <Hixie> aah, yes, defining in terms of local name, that's the key
  264. # [10:11] <Hixie> ok
  265. # [10:11] <Hixie> thanks
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  267. # [10:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: btw, contrary to previous note about UTF-8, I now do the name munging as hex UTF-16 code units
  268. # [10:19] <hsivonen> (because the UTF-8 conversion wasn't portable to GWT)
  269. # [10:20] <Hixie> i'm speccing the name munging to just be "replace the bad character with 'U' followed by the five character codepoint", as in '.foo' -> 'U0002Efoo'
  270. # [10:20] <hsivonen> I suppose UTF-16 to UTF-32 conversion is doable, but not too useful
  271. # [10:21] <Hixie> well it doesn't really matter unless you're providing a library anyway
  272. # [10:21] <Hixie> and are any astral characters that UTF-16 can express disallowed in NCNames?
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  274. # [10:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: off the top of my head, no.
  275. # [10:24] <Hixie> actually i can't find where 4th ed allows astral characters at all
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  277. # [10:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: umm. right. top of my head was wrong
  278. # [10:26] <Hixie> could have sworn it allowed them
  279. # [10:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: it's the char production that allows everything above the BMP
  280. # [10:27] <Hixie> sigh
  281. # [10:27] <Hixie> i hate arbitrary restrictions
  282. # [10:28] <hsivonen> the restrictions on XML names are particularly silly considering perf
  283. # [10:31] <Hixie> but don't forget, xml is faster!
  284. # [10:31] <Hixie> because it has no error handling code!
  285. # [10:32] <gDashiva> and no errors
  286. # [10:35] <Hixie> ok hsivonen
  287. # [10:35] <Hixie> i've revamped the coercions
  288. # [10:35] * hsivonen reloads
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  290. # [10:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: looks good except I'd prefer permitting no-namespace attributes called "xmlns" or starting with "xmlns:" to be dropped.
  291. # [10:39] <Hixie> ok
  292. # [10:39] <hsivonen> thanks
  293. # [10:40] <hsivonen> (particularly this avoids munged attributes in docs that have conforming xmlns talismans)
  294. # [10:44] <Hixie> commited
  295. # [10:44] <Hixie> forgot to mark it 't', sorry
  296. # [10:47] <hsivonen> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=22942#c104
  297. # [10:58] <Hixie> boy is that a long comment
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  305. # [12:10] <gsnedders> Colloquy crashed :\
  306. # [12:10] <Lachy> finally, a way for socially inept people to use phones without actually talking directly to people! :-) http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/22/1558236
  307. # [12:12] <gsnedders> Yay! I'm saved!
  308. # [12:15] <Hixie> why would you need a reason to use a phone
  309. # [12:16] <gsnedders> heh: "What rational person would want to spend time talking about Web standards?" — Doug
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  311. # [12:17] <gsnedders> Hixie: Because it's a full-duplex method of communication, and it works even when the other person doesn't use any such thing online.
  312. # [12:17] <Hixie> but it's synchronous
  313. # [12:17] <gsnedders> Hixie: I only just got up!
  314. # [12:18] <gsnedders> (e.g., what I say is bullshit by definition)
  315. # [12:20] <gsnedders> Hixie: OK, but compared with email/snail-mail, if those are the alternatives
  316. # [12:21] <Hixie> irc, im
  317. # [12:21] <Hixie> sms
  318. # [12:21] <Hixie> e-mail
  319. # [12:21] <Hixie> all those are superior
  320. # [12:21] <gsnedders> If they don't have IRC or IM, if you don't know their mobile number.
  321. # [12:21] <Hixie> to a synchronous audio channel
  322. # [12:21] <gsnedders> e-mail is asynchronous
  323. # [12:21] <Hixie> well if i don't have their phone number, i can't call them anyway
  324. # [12:21] <gsnedders> (so is SMS, really, even though a lot of people use it as if it isn't)
  325. # [12:21] <Lachy> Hixie, with this, it makes phones asynchronous
  326. # [12:21] <Hixie> and since i don't have a phone number, they can never call me
  327. # [12:22] <gsnedders> Hixie: a home phone number?
  328. # [12:22] <Lachy> Hixie, do you have an office phone?
  329. # [12:22] * gsnedders wonders when he last used his phone
  330. # [12:22] <Hixie> Lachy: yes, this mechanism is a good idea. i was just responding to your statement which implied that a reason to use a phone was something we were waiting for :-)
  331. # [12:23] <Hixie> i don't have a phone at all at home (no land line, no mobile)
  332. # [12:23] <Hixie> and i am never in my office so my office phone is essentially useless
  333. # [12:23] <hsivonen> speaking of SMS: any recommendations on a Web site monitoring service that sends SMS when the monitored site is down?
  334. # [12:24] <hsivonen> is this one any good: http://rootinternet.co.uk/ ?
  335. # [12:24] <Hixie> hsivonen: use twitter direct messages
  336. # [12:24] <Hixie> though twitter might not be reliable enough for his purpose
  337. # [12:24] <Lachy> twitter is the most unreliable service ever
  338. # [12:25] <gsnedders> It is finally getting better, at least
  339. # [12:25] <Lachy> I'm still waiting for them to restore IM support, but I hope when they bring it back, they make it far more reliable than it was before.
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  341. # [12:27] <hsivonen> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/07/02/authoritative-true#c1216242757 is that a hypothetical or is authoritative=true being implemented in a non-IE browser?
  342. # [12:29] <Lachy> it seems hypothetical to me
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  348. # [12:48] <Hixie> can someone with a more recent build of opera check the result of http://damowmow.com/playground/demos/global-object/008.html ?
  349. # [12:48] <Hixie> click navigate, then click test
  350. # [12:49] <virtuelv> result: true false false true true
  351. # [12:49] <virtuelv> 9.52/2069
  352. # [12:49] <Hixie> cool thanks
  353. # [12:49] <Hixie> all other browsers do true true true true true
  354. # [12:49] <Hixie> fwiw
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  356. # [12:53] <hsivonen> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-July/015368.html is rather defeatist about captioning :-(
  357. # [12:55] <zcorpan> someone should make the webapps-tracker provide links to bugs mentioned in the checkins in a separate column
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  359. # [13:03] <hsivonen> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg52473.html
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  362. # [13:08] <Hixie> ugh, their new text versions suck compared to the old text versions
  363. # [13:09] <hsivonen> getting on the bandwagon when others are getting off
  364. # [13:10] <gDashiva> http://www.iana.org/assignments/aaa-parameters/aaa-parameters.xhtml (new HTML version) <-- no x!
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  366. # [13:13] <hsivonen> whoa. they'll even turn off the old formats
  367. # [13:13] <Lachy> wow, that sucks
  368. # [13:13] <hsivonen> how nice for software that reads existing IANA data
  369. # [13:16] <Lachy> it wouldn't be a problem if they would just continue generating the old text format from the XML, instead of inventing a new text format
  370. # [13:16] <hsivonen> perhaps the old format is hard to generate from XSLT
  371. # [13:16] <Lachy> then that's a reason to not use XSLT, not a reason to change the format
  372. # [13:17] <gDashiva> Maybe just leave the old text files alone, even
  373. # [13:18] <Lachy> gDashiva, then they would go out of date
  374. # [13:18] <gDashiva> out of date files for out of date applications :)
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  377. # [13:24] <Hixie> this global object stuff is way more annoying that i'd like
  378. # [13:24] <Hixie> i'm going to bed
  379. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> http://blog.mozilla.com/meeting-notes/archives/26
  380. # [13:33] <MikeSmith> I'm wondering what the crossed-out stuff means
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  382. # [13:33] <MikeSmith> e.g., "worker threads (under review)" striked out
  383. # [13:34] <MikeSmith> and "native JSON (under review)"
  384. # [13:34] <Philip`> I thought it just meant it won't be in alpha 1
  385. # [13:34] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  386. # [13:35] <Philip`> http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox3.1/StatusMeetings/2008-07-22 is a better view of that list since it has indentation
  387. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> Philip`: ah, thanks
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  389. # [13:49] <zcorpan> Hixie: the html parser can't emit an element ".foo<bar"
  390. # [13:49] <zcorpan> Hixie: <. is the same as &lt;.
  391. # [13:50] <zcorpan> Hixie: s/element/attribute/ works though
  392. # [13:51] <zcorpan> Hixie: btw, perhaps <embed> should disallow attributes with ascii uppercase
  393. # [13:52] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the same reasoning with apply to data-FOO
  394. # [13:52] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yes
  395. # [14:05] <zcorpan> Hixie: the coerce section should mention comments ending with a -
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  400. # [14:29] <Windstoss> err, whats wrong with contenteditable in Opera?
  401. # [14:30] <Windstoss> Works in FF, Safari… Opera claims to support it?
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  408. # [15:18] <Lachy> Hixie, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jul/0064.html
  409. # [15:19] <Lachy> Hixie, you could just make the colour the same as it is in the whatwg copy of the spec, which is #222
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  418. # [16:21] <zcorpan> why is the w3 version suddely extremely ugly?
  419. # [16:24] <Lachy> zcorpan, ugly in what way?
  420. # [16:24] <Lachy> it looks the same as it always has
  421. # [16:24] <zcorpan> Lachy: it used to have nice blue background for element definitions for one
  422. # [16:25] <zcorpan> and orangered <code>
  423. # [16:25] <Lachy> oh, but the .warning styles look horible - yellow text on brown background
  424. # [16:25] <zcorpan> yeah
  425. # [16:27] <Lachy> I don't really care what it looks like, I always use the whatwg copy anyway
  426. # [16:27] <Philip`> zcorpan: In case you missed it while away: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080712#l-66 and http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080712#l-81
  427. # [16:27] <zcorpan> Philip`: saw those, cheers
  428. # [16:27] <Philip`> zcorpan: (I've uploaded a new http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/source.tar.bz2 which hopefully has those fixes, though I haven't updated the HTML files on that site)
  429. # [16:28] <zcorpan> Philip`: thanks
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  431. # [16:29] <zcorpan> Philip`: perhaps there are more instances of lineTo(0, 0) that should be moveTo(0, 0)? i haven't gone through all tests but it would be a simple thing to search for if you feel like it :)
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  433. # [16:34] <zcorpan> hsivonen: trying to validate http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/charref always gives "Internal Error: Oops. That was not supposed to happen. A bug manifested itself in the application internals. Unable to continue. Sorry. The admin was notified."
  434. # [16:34] <Philip`> zcorpan: I don't see any other incorrect lineTo(0, 0)s, though it's not impossible that there are some other unintentional lineTo(x, y)s in there
  435. # [16:34] <zcorpan> Philip`: ok
  436. # [16:36] <zcorpan> Hixie: had you updated to phpbb3?
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  438. # [16:41] <takkaria> Hixie: I'm surprised you didn't know I was writing a parser, it has been mentioned a fair bit. :)
  439. # [16:41] <gsnedders> Hixie is a complete n00b anyway :P
  440. # [16:42] <takkaria> Hixie's employer is even paying me to write it
  441. # [16:43] <gsnedders> Hixie's employer is rather large, though
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  460. # [18:07] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the reason is insufficient heap space. sorry about that. Validator.nu is running on a backup server while the main server undergoes an update to higher RAM spec
  461. # [18:09] <hsivonen> zcorpan: tweaking heap setting now...
  462. # [18:10] <hsivonen> (the real solution, of course, would be to eliminate Schematron...)
  463. # [18:11] <hsivonen> hmm. this happens even without schematron
  464. # [18:11] <hsivonen> very interesting...
  465. # [18:13] <hsivonen> even more interesting is that it runs out of heap in the same place even after increasing heap
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  468. # [18:21] <kangax> What would be the best way to represent (store) custom shapes which are later to be imported to canvas? Set of curves, points, lines?
  469. # [18:25] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben)
  470. # [18:26] <zcorpan> hsivonen: no worries, i just thought i'd let you know since it seemed to work fine for other resources
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  489. # [19:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: "<body></html><html>" gives "19: Stray “html” start tag." twice in parsetree.validator.nu
  490. # [19:44] <zcorpan> hsivonen: also, parsetree.validator.nu says "XML; don’t load external entities"
  491. # [19:57] <zcorpan> i love how http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_5 puts so much weight on the codec issue relative to the rest of the article
  492. # [19:58] <zcorpan> i mean if it would be balanced then the codec issue wouldn't get more than a single sentence
  493. # [19:59] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the codec issue is what made to slashdot and that non-HTML5 technical people have an opinion about
  494. # [20:00] <hsivonen> (I'll look into the parse tree issues tomorrow)
  495. # [20:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: indeed
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  506. # [20:33] <hdh> "An html element's end tag may be omitted if the html element is not immediately followed a comment" is a "by" missing?
  507. # [20:34] <zcorpan> hdh: yeah
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  513. # [21:19] <gsnedders> Can someone write docs so I don't have to for the spec-gen?
  514. # [21:19] <gsnedders> :P
  515. # [21:26] <jgraham> gsnedders: There's no point in getting anyone else to do it because they won't do it well wnough to satisfy you and you'll have to do it yourself eventually anyway
  516. # [21:27] <gsnedders> jgraham: True :P
  517. # [21:27] <Lachy> gsnedders, I could do it if you write down everything it does for me to base it on
  518. # [21:27] <gsnedders> Lachy: :P
  519. # [21:27] <gsnedders> Lachy: That kinda wrecks the point of getting someone else to do it
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  534. # [23:04] <Hixie> takkaria: i probably forgot and got you confused with all the other people writing parsers :-)
  535. # [23:05] <Hixie> gsnedders: assuming takkaria is talking about summer of code, the company being large doesn't really act as an excuse for me since i work on the team that does summer of code :-)
  536. # [23:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: Ah. That is problematic for that excuse.
  537. # [23:07] * gsnedders guesses that police car isn't going to bust his friends who are currently breaking the law as it is going the wrong way
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  541. # [23:23] * gsnedders notes he still won't be old enough for GSoC next year
  542. # [23:23] <jcranmer> there's a min age onGSoC?
  543. # [23:25] <gsnedders> jcranmer: yeah, 18.
  544. # [23:25] <jcranmer> ah
  545. # [23:25] * jcranmer only turned 18 a few mos ago
  546. # [23:26] * gsnedders only turns 18 in 2010
  547. # [23:26] * Philip` feels old :-(
  548. # [23:27] <gsnedders> Philip`: At least you don't have to look at my youthfulness now :P
  549. # [23:27] <jcranmer> well, I'm technically a second-semester sophomore at college, IIRC
  550. # [23:27] * jgraham is even older than Philip` :(
  551. # [23:27] <jgraham> (unless I'm not of course)
  552. # [23:28] <jcranmer> everyone is 5 standard geosystems units old
  553. # [23:28] <gsnedders> jcranmer: a sophomore?
  554. # [23:28] <jcranmer> gsnedders: AP + dual-enrollment course credits :-)
  555. # [23:28] <gsnedders> jcranmer: huh?
  556. # [23:28] <gsnedders> jcranmer: We need more i18n here.
  557. # [23:28] <jgraham> jcranmer: You may have o convert to non-US :)
  558. # [23:28] <jcranmer> gsnedders: sophmore = 2nd-year of college (university)
  559. # [23:28] <gsnedders> jcranmer: Ah.
  560. # [23:29] * gsnedders needs to decide where to apply… and soon.
  561. # [23:29] <gsnedders> s/apply/apply to/
  562. # [23:29] <jcranmer> gsnedders: which locale?
  563. # [23:29] <gsnedders> jcranmer: en-gb-x-sneddy, or en-gb-oed if you can't manage the former
  564. # [23:29] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@209.10.106.40) ("http://scripteka.com - all prototype extensions at your fingertips")
  565. # [23:30] <jgraham> gsnedders: Presumably your university will just be en-gb unless you plan to self educate
  566. # [23:30] <jcranmer> ah, so someone who can understand me if I refer to the subjunctive mood?
  567. # [23:30] <gsnedders> I thought jcranmer meant what language to localize to :P
  568. # [23:31] <gsnedders> jgraham: That's making the assumption I go to the UK :)
  569. # [23:31] <gsnedders> jcranmer: Only possibly
  570. # [23:34] <jgraham> jcranmer: Why would en-gb-* people be better at grammar than anyone else?
  571. # [23:34] <jcranmer> jgraham: he said en-gb-oed
  572. # [23:34] <jgraham> Oh. Well I guess that he could look it up then
  573. # [23:35] <jgraham> But we have essentially no education in grammar here
  574. # [23:35] <jcranmer> just like an en-us-x-harvard would understand it but not an en-us-x-hillbilly
  575. # [23:35] <gsnedders> My parents own a paper copy of the "compact" OED, which is basically the same as the full OED just printed in 8pt type with four normal OED pages to the page
  576. # [23:36] <Philip`> Hooray for www.oed.com
  577. # [23:38] <gsnedders> jcranmer: ("only possibly" because the OED merely defines words in terms of other words, and eventually falls about with recursive definitions, so it isn't certain I can understand anything)
  578. # [23:38] <jgraham> Philip`: Hooray for university subscriptions to hugely expensive reference works
  579. # [23:38] <jcranmer> I use dictionary.oed.com through school's proxy
  580. # [23:39] * gsnedders needs to write his personal statement
  581. # [23:39] * gsnedders sighs
  582. # [23:39] <Philip`> jgraham: and for SSH proxying so I can access it from home
  583. # [23:39] <jgraham> Philip`: Yeah, that's cool too
  584. # [23:39] * jgraham only discovered that recently
  585. # [23:40] <gsnedders> I also know whatever I write in the first draft of it will be completely thrown out and rewritten as I over-edit it.
  586. # [23:40] <Philip`> though usually I'm lazy and use rdesktop to a Windows machine instead, because that's easier than complicated port forwarding and faster than simple X forwarding
  587. # [23:43] <Philip`> gsnedders: In that case you can fill your first draft with jokes and terrible puns and obvious fabrications, which will make it more interesting
  588. # [23:43] <gsnedders> Philip`: But only make the first draft more interesting.
  589. # [23:43] <Philip`> That's better than nothing
  590. # [23:44] <gsnedders> Which will result in the second draft being what the first draft normally is :)
  591. # [23:44] <jcranmer> I wrote on of my college apps the night it was due grumbling about it in IRC
  592. # [23:44] <jcranmer> s/on/one/
  593. # [23:45] <gsnedders> jcranmer: At least here we have a centralized admissions process :)
  594. # [23:45] <jcranmer> http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/3042
  595. # [23:45] <gsnedders> But I may end up applying to MIT and Stanford…
  596. # [23:46] <jcranmer> didn't like Stanford's campus, and there was a certain haughtiness on the staff's part as well
  597. # [23:46] <jcranmer> then again, it seems that every American university's admissions director
  598. # [23:47] * gsnedders has the disadvantage of being unlikely to be able to see either before going there
  599. # [23:47] <jcranmer> s' job is to try to make it seem like you can't get in
  600. # [23:47] <jgraham> Hey the OED is 50% cheaper in the USA!
  601. # [23:47] <jcranmer> but our money is twice as cheap as yours...
  602. # [23:48] <gsnedders> I sent an email asking one or two questions to MIT Admissions, the reply I got had a reassuring start: "Hello Geoggrey,"
  603. # [23:48] * jcranmer curses the until-recently negative average savings rate
  604. # [23:48] * gsnedders wonders where else is better than Cambridge for Comp.Sci.
  605. # [23:49] <jcranmer> and lack of fiscal sanity on the part of elected officials, but you can't have it all
  606. # [23:49] <jgraham> gsnedders: Whilst I may not be sampling the ull distribution function, all the MIT people I have met have been both excepionally bright and excepionally nice
  607. # [23:50] <jgraham> s/ull/full/
  608. # [23:50] <Philip`> gsnedders: I don't think there exists a total ordering of the goodness of universities, so it doesn't make sense to ask if somewhere is "better" than somewhere else :-p
  609. # [23:50] <gsnedders> jgraham: I have the same experience. My uncle went their briefly as a post-grad, then went off to Kenya before completing his PhD, as he got a job offer
  610. # [23:50] <gsnedders> Philip`: True :P
  611. # [23:50] * gsnedders is listening to I Want It All by Queen from Greatest Hits II
  612. # [23:50] <gsnedders> jcranmer: Will that do? :P
  613. # [23:51] <gsnedders> However, being somewhere like CA would be good for my CFS…
  614. # [23:51] <jcranmer> I never really looked at MIT that much
  615. # [23:51] <jgraham> gsnedders: Sunlight?
  616. # [23:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: Heat.
  617. # [23:52] <jgraham> ?! Really?
  618. # [23:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: For all the various things it does to your muscles at least :P
  619. # [23:52] * gsnedders is on obscene amounts of painkillers and anti-inflamatores for all that pain
  620. # [23:53] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) ("http://www.csarven.ca")
  621. # [23:53] <jgraham> All I recall about Stanford is that the asrophysics department is in the bsement
  622. # [23:53] <gsnedders> jgraham: Light helps some people, and not others. Not so much me. Being this far north means I get plenty here in summer :)
  623. # [23:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: Peh! You don't need sunlight for astrophysics! :P
  624. # [23:55] <gsnedders> Lack of sunlight just screws with me mentally more than physically, esp. when I get really bad at winter, and end up never seeing any sunlight
  625. # [23:55] <roc> "didn't like Stanford's campus"? You are mad
  626. # [23:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well if you did the people at MRAO in Cambridge would be screwed (the Physics department has a negligible number of windows)
  627. # [23:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: Hehe. I am aware :)
  628. # [23:57] * gsnedders is currently leaning towards applying for Edinburgh (Comp. Phys.), York (Phys.), Cambridge (Comp.Sci.), MIT (Comp.Sci), Stanford (Comp.Sci.)
  629. # [23:57] * Parts: tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net)
  630. # [23:58] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@82-204-22-72.dsl.bbeyond.nl)
  631. # [23:58] <gsnedders> (sorry, s/(Phys/Theoretical Phys./)
  632. # Session Close: Thu Jul 24 00:00:00 2008

The end :)