/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-07-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jul 24 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <gsnedders> roc: You like it then, I take? :P
  4. # [00:01] * gsnedders bursts out laughing at Chris Wilson's latest tweet: "Twitter's usual web presence = EPIC WHALE"
  5. # [00:01] <roc> it's a lovely campus
  6. # [00:02] <roc> now, I chose to go to CMU instead of Stanford, so the campus isn't everything
  7. # [00:02] <gsnedders> Challenge: convince me why I should go to one of those universities?
  8. # [00:02] <Hixie> the only experience i have of stanford is the couple of times we were trying to drive from el camino onto university to go to dinner and took a wrong turn and ended up driving up the big stanford avenue in an attempt to find somewhere to u-turn
  9. # [00:02] <Hixie> that avenue sure looked nice
  10. # [00:03] <roc> apply to Stanford, CMU, MIT and Berkeley
  11. # [00:03] <roc> and study CompSci at one of those
  12. # [00:03] <gsnedders> roc: Berkeley is near-impossible to get into as an international student
  13. # [00:03] <roc> oh yeah
  14. # [00:03] <Hixie> yeah if you're going to do compsci then those are the ones to do it at
  15. # [00:03] <roc> sorry
  16. # [00:03] <roc> ok the other three
  17. # [00:03] <gsnedders> roc: CMU?
  18. # [00:03] <roc> Carnegie Mellon University
  19. # [00:03] <roc> the best CompSci program that the average person hasn't heard of
  20. # [00:04] <gsnedders> Pittsburgh… I think I went there.
  21. # [00:04] <roc> but it's as good as the other big three
  22. # [00:04] <gsnedders> (I went to the USA once when I was five, I don't remember that much)
  23. # [00:04] <gsnedders> (I remember I don't like LA, and one or two things I didn't really like in Boston)
  24. # [00:05] <gsnedders> (and the other place we went to was some random place where my father was giving a paper at a conference, which was the whole reason for going)
  25. # [00:05] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-172-80.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  26. # [00:06] * gsnedders sighs
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  28. # [00:06] <gsnedders> choices.
  29. # [00:07] <gsnedders> Someone (not me) should just make a choice from my above list and be done with it :P
  30. # [00:08] <jgraham> gsnedders: Someone (not you) will decide whether to let you in to those places or not :)
  31. # [00:08] <gsnedders> jgraham: :P
  32. # [00:08] <Hixie> if you have money, pick stanford
  33. # [00:08] <gsnedders> The US unis are pushing it in terms of money
  34. # [00:09] <Hixie> then you're near google, apple, and mozilla, which might be helpful
  35. # [00:09] <Hixie> (e.g. for internships)
  36. # [00:09] * gsnedders sighs
  37. # [00:09] <gsnedders> I can't even decide what subject to do :P
  38. # [00:09] <gsnedders> I probably won't get into such good places for physics though
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  49. # [00:10] * gsnedders notes Cambridge has the advantage of being able to switch to that after the first year of comp.sci. without having to do any catching up
  50. # [00:20] <takkaria> it's bad that I read comp.sci as a newsgroup name
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  55. # [00:29] <jcranmer> yay, I'm not the only person who reads newsgroups!
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  64. # [01:13] <Hixie> heycam: you haven't done anything to do with callbacks yet right? other than [NativeObject]? (just checking, not complaining or anything -- there's no rush, i just happened to run into the issue again today)
  65. # [01:17] <heycam> Hixie, that's right
  66. # [01:17] <Hixie> k
  67. # [01:18] <Hixie> i updated html5 to use the constructor stuff today
  68. # [01:18] <Hixie> it seems to work well
  69. # [01:18] <heycam> cool
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  90. # [02:59] <heycam> where is window.parent defined?
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  96. # [03:27] <Hixie> heycam: it's not yet, iirc
  97. # [03:27] <Hixie> heycam: do you need it?
  98. # [03:28] <heycam> i was just going to make some comments about the Global stuff in svg tiny 1.2, and make a reference to parent in html5
  99. # [03:28] <heycam> but then i realised it wasn't there
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  101. # [03:29] <heycam> (since there's a 'parent' attribute on the SVGGlobal interface)
  102. # [03:29] * Parts: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.133.99) ("Konversation terminated!")
  103. # [03:30] <heycam> ah i see it's in www.w3.org/TR/Window
  104. # [03:30] <Hixie> i'm treating that draft as obsolete, fwiw
  105. # [03:30] <heycam> yeah i'm wondering what's going to happen with it
  106. # [03:30] <Hixie> i really should define 'parent' at some point
  107. # [03:30] <heycam> will you fold it in to html5?
  108. # [03:30] <Hixie> not sure if it has any complications
  109. # [03:30] <Hixie> it's already folded in, for the most part
  110. # [03:31] <heycam> i would rather it be a separate spec, but i know othermaciej mentioned intricate dependencies with other stuff in html 5
  111. # [03:31] <Hixie> is 'parent' just the parent browsing context's default view's Window object, or is there more to it?
  112. # [03:31] <Hixie> Window is probably the most integrated part of HTML5
  113. # [03:32] <othermaciej> or self if there is no parent
  114. # [03:32] <Hixie> factoring out Window from HTML5 would be like factoring out the nervous system from a human being
  115. # [03:33] <heycam> i don't think it's impossible, or even necessarily a bad idea. it might be a lot of effort, though.
  116. # [03:36] <Hixie> ok, defined window.parent
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  125. # [04:17] <Hixie> wow, <embed src=""> processing is so far from what http requires as to be stupid
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  237. # [10:58] <Hixie> if anyone has any good ideas on how to resolve http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5859 please write them in the bug
  238. # [11:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: can there ever be a window object and a scripting context whose origin is a URI scheme that the browser doesn't support?
  239. # [11:00] <hsivonen> or does this issue have a wider scope than examining the document's own origin port?
  240. # [11:01] * hsivonen searches for default port
  241. # [11:02] <hsivonen> the only non-Origin-related "default port" I see is under parsing URLs
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  247. # [11:15] <Philip`> http://www.sitepen.com/blog/2008/07/22/windowname-transport/ seems kind of crazy
  248. # [11:17] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  249. # [11:17] <hsivonen> Philip`: does postMessage do anything that can't be emulated on top of window.name?
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  251. # [11:26] <hsivonen> hendry: now that OpenJDK is in Debian, it should be feasible to get all sort of server-side Java stuff in Debian and have it run with reasonable effort. (e.g. latest Jetty)
  252. # [11:27] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  253. # [11:27] <hendry> hsivonen: from what i gather openjdk is exactly the same as the old sun-java6 package
  254. # [11:28] <hendry> hsivonen: are all the other deps coming in too now?
  255. # [11:28] <hsivonen> hendry: I thought some parts were removed or rewritten
  256. # [11:28] <hsivonen> hendry: but as far as non-GUI stuff goes, yeah it should be the same code
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  258. # [11:29] <hsivonen> hendry: dunno. I supposed each package maintainer needs to be poked
  259. # [11:29] <hsivonen> like getting Jetty upgraded from legacy 5.x to 6.x etc.
  260. # [11:29] <hendry> hsivonen: i'm not super keen on java as you know ;)
  261. # [11:30] <hendry> hsivonen: couldn't you shed some depedencies somehow? or migrate to C? ;)
  262. # [11:30] <hsivonen> hendry: It Free now. What's not to be keen about? :-)
  263. # [11:30] <hsivonen> hendry: I can shed some of the gratuitous build deps when Saxon 9.1 is out
  264. # [11:30] <hendry> hsivonen: it's bloatware. i'm a patron of the "lesscode movement" like http://www.suckless.org/ project
  265. # [11:30] <hsivonen> (then I no longer need to maintain my own fork of Saxon)
  266. # [11:31] * hendry wonders if the css validator also have tons of Java deps
  267. # [11:31] <hsivonen> hendry: I like the JVM and I like java.lang and java.util. There's lot of bloat in the class library
  268. # [11:33] * hsivonen discovers Jetty 7.0
  269. # [11:34] <hendry> so saxon is XSLT? what do you need XSLT for?
  270. # [11:35] <hsivonen> btw, the RAM on validator.nu is now updated. It should take about 8 hours for the DNS to point to the higher spec server
  271. # [11:35] <hendry> couldn't you have a simple light PHP interface and pipe results to a JVM
  272. # [11:35] <hsivonen> hendry: the Schematron engine compiles the Schematron schema into an XSLT program
  273. # [11:36] <hendry> hsivonen: why has the service been down? has load increased?
  274. # [11:36] <hsivonen> hendry: isn't mod_jk that light interface? :-)
  275. # [11:36] <hsivonen> hendry: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/downtime/
  276. # [11:36] <hendry> hsivonen: mod_jk, no :)
  277. # [11:36] <hendry> hsivonen: think less code, think drops deps
  278. # [11:36] <hendry> PHP is like air nowadays
  279. # [11:37] <hsivonen> hendry: dropping deps means forking intermediate deps :-(
  280. # [11:37] <hsivonen> hendry: most of the deps just satisfy latent kitchen sink deps that don't actually load at runtime
  281. # [11:37] <hsivonen> like Ant
  282. # [11:38] <hsivonen> don't get me started on depending on Ant
  283. # [11:38] <hendry> hsivonen: i'll look at your build.xml and see if it can re-written as a Makefile
  284. # [11:38] <hsivonen> hendry: I don't have build.xml
  285. # [11:38] <hsivonen> hendry: no XML situps!
  286. # [11:39] <hendry> hsivonen: oh that's right... well I am just trying to think of ways to dropping deps. I guess your deps require ant
  287. # [11:39] <hendry> anyway, ant isn't too bad.
  288. # [11:39] <hsivonen> (and yes, I have now verified that additional swap survives a reboot)
  289. # [11:39] <hsivonen> hendry: some deps provide an ant task
  290. # [11:39] <hendry> but Makefiles are *so* much better
  291. # [11:39] <hsivonen> hendry: and to compile that, ant has to be present
  292. # [11:40] <hsivonen> and ant inself has ballooned into being huge
  293. # [11:41] <roc_> Makefiles are better than someting? how astonishing
  294. # [11:42] <hendry> i used to hate Makefiles. Now I think they're great. :)
  295. # [11:42] <hendry> hsivonen: did I ever show you http://getacue.dabase.com/ ?
  296. # [11:43] <hsivonen> hendry: you didn't
  297. # [11:44] <hendry> hsivonen: take a look at it and tell me what you think. it's ongoing mind
  298. # [11:47] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-246-19.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  299. # [11:47] <hsivonen> hendry: so one is supposed to learn to remember the border color?
  300. # [11:54] <hendry> hsivonen: yes over repeated use over time of course
  301. # [11:54] <hendry> hsivonen: it was initially an android proposal
  302. # [11:55] <hendry> so imagine picking up a device and every form was coloured on input
  303. # [11:55] <hendry> if you have a rediculous long phone number, you can "cue" it by telling the reciepient it's dark green on input or something :)
  304. # [11:58] <hsivonen> did Ubuntu comment out Apache2 AddDefaultCharset for Hardy? I'm pretty sure it was on by default in Feisty.
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  315. # [13:18] <tusho> Which is correct:
  316. # [13:18] <tusho> <cite>extract from Some Book by Author</cite>
  317. # [13:18] <tusho> or
  318. # [13:18] <tusho> extract from <cite>Some Book by Author</cite>
  319. # [13:18] <hsivonen> tusho: extract from <cite>Some Book</cite> by Author
  320. # [13:19] <tusho> OK, thanks :)
  321. # [13:19] <tusho> What if I wanted to style 'Author' a certain way? what tag would it go in?
  322. # [13:19] <tusho> Just a span?
  323. # [13:19] <hsivonen> tusho: <span> or <b> depending on the conventions of your publication's style manual, I guess
  324. # [13:20] * tusho nods
  325. # [13:20] <tusho> I've always wondered which is more semantic, though: since this is going to be the only span in the paragraph and ostensibly just used for styling, should I give the span a class?
  326. # [13:21] <tusho> My thoughts say yes when thinking about, e.g. programmatical manipulation of the document.
  327. # [13:22] <hsivonen> tusho: are you planning to manipulate your documents programmatically right way or is this an investment in case you want to do it later?
  328. # [13:22] <tusho> Not really planning to do it, but I'd like to keep open the possibility, obviously.
  329. # [13:23] <tusho> (If I wasn't aiming for a good level of semantics I'd just be using tag soup, wouldn't I?)
  330. # [13:23] <tusho> I'll give it a class, an unadorned span seems out of place.
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  332. # [13:25] <Philip`> Writing <span class=author> doesn't seem any harder than writing <span>, and CSS like "foo .author" seems much easier to read than "foo span", and it means you have less to worry about if you add some other unrelated <span>s in the future since you won't have to rewrite all the existing ones
  333. # [13:26] <hsivonen> tusho: "good level of semantics" has an opportunity cost just like everything else that takes effort
  334. # [13:26] <tusho> Philip`: That was pretty much my deduction.
  335. # [13:26] <tusho> hsivonen: Well, yes, but giving elements a span doesn't seem very difficult ;)
  336. # [13:30] <Philip`> (Hmm, someone replaced my telephone with a Cisco VOIP one)
  337. # [13:31] * Philip` guesses it won't be quite as reliable as the old phone system
  338. # [13:31] <hsivonen> is there any harm in running 'apache2ctl start' from cron every minute or so?
  339. # [13:33] <tusho> hsivonen: Why would you need to?
  340. # [13:33] <tusho> If Apache is crashing every minute, well ...
  341. # [13:34] <hsivonen> tusho: to restart apache if the kernel kills it on OOM
  342. # [13:34] <tusho> hsivonen: Ah - are you using worker or prefork?
  343. # [13:34] <tusho> If it's prefork, switch to worker. I find memory problems instantly disappear. Unfortunately, you can't use mod_php any more, but you can run PHP via CGI/FastCGI.
  344. # [13:36] <hsivonen> tusho: I use the Ubuntu default and it isn't immediately obvious where it is set
  345. # [13:36] <tusho> hsivonen: Do this-
  346. # [13:36] <tusho> $ sudo apt-get install apache2-mpm-worker
  347. # [13:36] <tusho> It'll uninstall mod_php (if installed) and the current one, and install worker.
  348. # [13:36] <tusho> (Your config files will stay.)
  349. # [13:36] <hsivonen> tusho: I don't need PHP. I need CGI for Bugzilla and mod_jk for Java
  350. # [13:36] <tusho> Tjat
  351. # [13:36] <tusho> *That's OK.
  352. # [13:36] <tusho> Both will work fine.
  353. # [13:36] <tusho> Well, look at what apache2-mpm-worker says it'll uninstall.
  354. # [13:36] <tusho> If it doesn't mention either of those, then you're OK.
  355. # [13:37] <hsivonen> tusho: thanks
  356. # [13:37] <tusho> I know for a fact CGI works, though
  357. # [13:37] <tusho> hsivonen: No problem :)
  358. # [13:37] <Philip`> I suggest not running out of memory :-)
  359. # [13:38] <Philip`> Can't you just limit the JVM heap size and limit the number of concurrent processes Apache will spawn?
  360. # [13:38] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1216-ipbf601marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  361. # [13:38] <hsivonen> Philip`: I don't know what # on concurrent processes I should limit Apache to
  362. # [13:39] <hsivonen> Philip`: It dies like thrice a year and leaves no diagnostic dump of what provoked the unusual memory allocation
  363. # [13:39] <Philip`> hsivonen: (Total RAM - amount used by OS and services - some spare) / (maximum heap size allocated to each JVM)
  364. # [13:41] <Philip`> hsivonen: Can you run something like ApacheBench to stress test it and make it break reproducibly?
  365. # [13:42] <hsivonen> Philip`: I suppose I could. Except I already started the process of pointing the DNS to the real server that is the one needing testing...
  366. # [13:42] <hsivonen> and DNS changes take 8 hours
  367. # [13:44] <Philip`> They take no time if you just modify /etc/hosts :-)
  368. # [13:45] <hsivonen> Philip`: my point is that stress testing the real server now affects real users
  369. # [13:46] <Philip`> hsivonen: How many real users are there?
  370. # [13:46] <zcorpan> Hixie: + attribute may be left blank if there is another <code>area<code>
  371. # [13:47] <zcorpan> Hixie: should be </code>
  372. # [13:47] <hsivonen> Philip`: does the number matter if the people who care about the service are inconvenienced?
  373. # [13:48] * Philip` is glad he doesn't have anything with users, since then he'd have to worry about them
  374. # [13:50] <tusho> Just use -worker, seriously ;)
  375. # [13:50] <tusho> -prefork is deprecated.
  376. # [13:50] * Copyman` is now known as Maurice
  377. # [13:51] <Philip`> hsivonen: If the only users are people in this channel, you could say "please be aware that the validator will be slow and/or crashed while I'm testing it over the next few hours" and probably nobody would mind, which would make it easy :-)
  378. # [13:51] <hsivonen> tusho: at least aptitude didn't complain about installed modules...
  379. # [13:52] <tusho> hsivonen: Yay—then you can just install it and be happy.
  380. # [13:52] <tusho> (Hopefully. I've never had any problems with worker.)
  381. # [13:52] <Philip`> tusho: Do you have a pointer to something saying it's deprecated?
  382. # [13:52] <tusho> Philip`: Certainly.
  383. # [13:53] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  384. # [13:53] <tusho> Just a sec.
  385. # [13:53] <tusho> Hm, can't find it - wait, let me ask #apache for the link.
  386. # [13:54] <hsivonen> are mpm_* modules special under Ubuntu/Debian in that they don't show up in mods-available?
  387. # [13:55] <Philip`> MPMs apparently have to be compiled into the server, so you can't load them as runtime modules
  388. # [13:56] <hsivonen> how do I check which MPM is actually active?
  389. # [13:56] <Philip`> "it is possible to determine which MPM was chosen by using ./httpd -l"
  390. # [13:56] <Philip`> says http://httpd.apache.org/docs/trunk/mpm.html
  391. # [13:57] * hsivonen assumes worker.c means successful install
  392. # [13:57] <tusho> Huh, you're already on worker.
  393. # [13:58] <tusho> Then yes, you have a problem.
  394. # [13:58] <hsivonen> indeed, aptitude install apache2-mpm-worker didn't install anything
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  402. # [14:35] <hsivonen> I reduced the Apache Timeout value significantly and added a cron job to kick Apache back up when it gets killed
  403. # [14:35] <hsivonen> let's see how it goes
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  410. # [15:45] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jul/0068.html
  411. # [15:47] <hsivonen> http://codinginparadise.org/weblog/2008/07/what-heck-is-open-web.html
  412. # [15:48] <hsivonen> "If Adobe were to open source Flex/Flash, or Microsoft Silverlight, would that be the Open Web? If so, why? If not, why not?"
  413. # [15:48] * hsivonen notes that Java is now Open Source but Hixie still rejects <applet>
  414. # [15:49] * hsivonen suspects that multiple independent implementations at least one of which is open source is required
  415. # [15:49] <hsivonen> although Java approximately has that, too
  416. # [15:56] <Philip`> Java give the impression of being big and slow and ugly, which is a major failure of marketing, so we don't want to associate that with our The Open Web
  417. # [15:56] <Philip`> s/give/gives/
  418. # [15:57] <hsivonen> sure. Applets totally suck.
  419. # [15:57] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
  420. # [15:58] <hsivonen> (but Java being slow is no longer true except for the JVM startup)
  421. # [15:59] <hsivonen> (that said, I use the Web with Java disabled and am quite unhappy when I run into an applet requirement to get information out of a site)
  422. # [16:00] <hsivonen> (recently, I actually ran across a site that had a superbly bad map hidden inside an applet)
  423. # [16:00] <Philip`> (For applets, JVM startup time is more significant than its runtime performance - when I visit a site that uses Java applets, and it freezes my browser and crunches my disk for ten seconds, it encourages me to hate Java)
  424. # [16:00] <hsivonen> (apparently whoever runs the site doesn't have the clue to link to Google Maps)
  425. # [16:01] <Philip`> (And anyway I said "gives the impression of being [...] slow", not "is slow", and the impressions are what matter when trying to convince people that the Open Web consists of all the cool stuff and none of the rubbish stuff)
  426. # [16:02] <hsivonen> (I didn't enable Java on the site in question. Instead, I searched for the place on Google Maps)
  427. # [16:02] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  428. # [16:03] <hsivonen> btw, does JavaFX somehow sweep AWT and Swing out of the view?
  429. # [16:04] <Philip`> (Well, maybe it doesn't actually give that impression, but people have that impression because the JVM used to give that impression and then everyone propagated it even when it untrue. Or something like that)
  430. # [16:05] <hsivonen> hmm. the JavaFX site is all ajaxy
  431. # [16:05] <hsivonen> have I misunderstood what JavaFX is?
  432. # [16:06] * Philip` has never understood what it is
  433. # [16:07] <hsivonen> "Sun is not replacing Swing with JavaFX Script. Instead, JavaFX Script makes Swing easier to use."
  434. # [16:07] * hsivonen intends to stay away from it
  435. # [16:07] <hsivonen> quote from http://www.javafx.com/htdocs/javafxfaq.html
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  437. # [16:08] <Philip`> Why stay away from it?
  438. # [16:08] <hsivonen> Philip`: Swing suck. Or at least that's the impression I have. :-)
  439. # [16:09] <hsivonen> sucks even
  440. # [16:09] <Philip`> For reasons other than it being hard to use?
  441. # [16:09] <hsivonen> Philip`: for the default PLAF being hideous and the other PLAFs not feeling native
  442. # [16:10] <hsivonen> the entire concept of a PLAF doesn't make sense
  443. # [16:10] <hsivonen> as if you could just plug in the Mac *feel*
  444. # [16:10] * Philip` has written a total of one small Swing application in his life, and didn't think it was entirely great, mostly because its Win32 L&F font renderer had a bug that made the default font unacceptably hideous
  445. # [16:12] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-2bd5134f5ee4d3fa) (Client Quit)
  446. # [16:12] <Philip`> (Also I've got used to how wxWidgets does layouts, and get confused by anything that's different)
  447. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> Qt
  448. # [16:16] * Philip` used wxWidgets instead of Qt since he didn't want to have to be GPL
  449. # [16:17] <hsivonen> what's happening with the licensing of Qt? Before Nokia acquired TrollTech, Nokia was all about a 'level playing field' and LGPL.
  450. # [16:17] * Quits: webben_ (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-796e44b9b191ed70) (Connection timed out)
  451. # [16:18] <hsivonen> (in rhetoric that is)
  452. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> Qt is dual license
  453. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> no changes in that afaik
  454. # [16:21] <hsivonen> ok. I guess the playing field looks different when they own the tollbooth :-)
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  456. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> there's now an open-source Webkit-based browser UI based on Qt port of Webkit
  457. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> Arora
  458. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/p/arora/
  459. # [16:23] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  460. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> (not that this has anything to do with the Java, applets Swing, etc. discussion)
  461. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> just with wxWidgets
  462. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> (there's also a wxWidgets port of WebKit)
  463. # [16:28] * Philip` thought about embedding WebKit in his program (an OpenGL-based game), but then realised that'd be stupid because there seems to be no existing support for rendering into OpenGL and seemingly no decent cross-platform port :-(
  464. # [16:30] <MikeSmith> Philip`: Qt is cross-platform and have some kind of build-in OpenGL support
  465. # [16:35] <Philip`> MikeSmith: I assume you mean support for rendering GL content into a panel on a Qt window? That doesn't seem to be a problem - the difficulty is rendering the WebKit view (no external GUI, but probably buttons and scrollbars and stuff) onto an OpenGL surface, so it can be drawn onto the game's fullscreen window
  466. # [16:35] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  467. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> ah
  468. # [16:36] <Philip`> (and hooking it into the game's mouse/keyboard event system, etc)
  469. # [16:36] * MikeSmith re-reads what Philip` actually said before
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  475. # [16:43] <zcorpan> it appears that the processing rules of aria have changed so now it's again undefined what "whitespace" is for instance
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  490. # [18:07] <gDashiva> Here's the magic line: A JSON parser MAY accept non-JSON forms or extensions.
  491. # [18:07] <gsnedders> Yay!
  492. # [18:08] <smedero> huh.
  493. # [18:08] <gDashiva> But: A JSON generator produces JSON text. The resulting text MUST strictly conform to the JSON grammar.
  494. # [18:08] <Philip`> That's just Postel's Law
  495. # [18:09] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  496. # [18:09] <gDashiva> Sure, but it throws out probably over 90% of all json implementations
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  499. #
  500. # Session Start: Thu Jul 24 18:48:01 2008
  501. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  502. # [18:48] * Now talking in #whatwg
  503. # [18:48] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  504. # [18:48] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
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  516. # [20:10] <sidda> This is a question regarding data framing in the WebSockets protocol. The protocol draft says the contents of the DataFrame should be UTF8 encoded. Can 2 strings (each null terminated) be sent in one dataframe?
  517. # [20:11] <sidda> Also, can one large string straddle across 2 dataframes?
  518. # [20:14] * gsnedders finally bothers to write docs
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  530. # [20:37] * gsnedders should probably copy the CSS stylesheet and not just hotlink the WHATWG copy :P
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  534. # [21:00] <Lachy> http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/07/23/any-element-linking-demo/
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  546. # [21:55] <Hixie> hsivonen: open source != non-proprietary. q.v. xul.
  547. # [22:00] <gavin_> xul isn't proprietary in the common sense of the word
  548. # [22:00] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  549. # [22:00] <gavin_> (as in, it isn't "exclusively owned")
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  552. # [22:13] <hsivonen> XUL is single-implementation technology, though
  553. # [22:14] <gavin_> yes
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  555. # [22:14] <mpt> XCF is open source and proprietary
  556. # [22:17] <hsivonen> If bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=22942 is any indication, pleople are wedding intranet apps with XUL
  557. # [22:17] <Hixie> gavin: xul is exclusively owned by mozilla
  558. # [22:17] <hsivonen> s/pleople/people/
  559. # [22:17] <Hixie> gavin: i'm not in any way saying this is inappropriate or bad
  560. # [22:17] <Hixie> gavin: it's perfectly reasonable for groups to invent technologies that they use for their own purposes
  561. # [22:19] <gavin_> I'm not arguing because I think it being "proprietary" is bad
  562. # [22:19] <gavin_> I'm arguing because I think it's innaccurate :)
  563. # [22:20] <gavin_> but I suppose that definition of proprietary is pretty common
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  565. # [22:20] <gavin_> not sure what "owned by mozilla" means
  566. # [22:21] <gavin_> if IE implemented it would they have 50% ownership?
  567. # [22:21] <hsivonen> I try to use "product-specific" instead of proprietary when referring to Inkscape cruft to avoid debates about the opensourciness of Inkscape
  568. # [22:22] <Hixie> gavin: if IE implemented it, and implemented it slightly differently, would mozilla have any interest whatsoever in converging on what IE did? (i'm guessing no.)
  569. # [22:22] <gavin_> well now we're getting into pretty crazy "ifs"
  570. # [22:22] <Hixie> that's my point
  571. # [22:22] <Hixie> :-)
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  573. # [22:23] <gavin_> mozilla does want to converge on an interoperable xul-like box model
  574. # [22:24] <Hixie> a technology is "proprietary", imho, if the group that defines it is more concerned about its own needs and the needs of its users than about the needs of all competing implementations and their users
  575. # [22:24] <Hixie> yes, the flexbox stuff isn't proprietary
  576. # [22:25] <gavin_> ok
  577. # [22:25] <hsivonen> I think XUL box model together with HTML5 would be Good fo the Web
  578. # [22:25] <Hixie> yes
  579. # [22:25] <gavin_> that seems like a weird definition of "proprietary"
  580. # [22:25] <gavin_> but I won't argue that it doesn't apply to XUL
  581. # [22:25] <Hixie> wikipedia says "A proprietary format is a file format which is covered by a patent or copyright which is intended to give the license holder exclusive control of the technology to the (current or future) exclusion of others"
  582. # [22:26] <Hixie> which imho is basically saying the same thing
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  584. # [22:27] <Hixie> but if someone has a better word i'm all for using that
  585. # [22:27] <gavin_> if other people started implementing xul and promoting it's use on the web, mozilla would certainly want to encourage interoperability
  586. # [22:27] <gavin_> but that's not where we are
  587. # [22:27] <gavin_> (and arguably that isn't a very good plan)
  588. # [22:28] <hsivonen> We should have some Venn diagrams and theory about the feature set overlap of Gecko, WebKit and Opera and when stuff becomes part of the open Web platform
  589. # [22:28] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
  590. # [22:28] <gavin_> I mean, there's no reason why we would care about more than just our users if only our users are using it :)
  591. # [22:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: there are at least 3 independent open-souce implementations of Java.
  592. # [22:33] <hsivonen> Hixie: what would ti take for <applet> not ot be considered an integration poit for proprietary technology?
  593. # [22:33] <Hixie> sure, just like there's an open source implementation (or two!) of Win32 and an open source implementation of .NET
  594. # [22:33] <Hixie> doesn't make it an open standard
  595. # [22:33] <Hixie> it would take Sun giving up control over the language
  596. # [22:33] <hsivonen> ok
  597. # [22:33] <Hixie> and turning it over to an actual open standards committee that wasn't beholden to their interests
  598. # [22:34] <Hixie> ODF and OOXML are other examples of "standards" that are still effectively proprietary
  599. # [22:35] <hsivonen> personally, I'd prefer to see the language frozen at 5, cutting down the "standard library" and letting innovation happen in open-souce libs that aren't part of the "standard" java platform
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  601. # [22:38] <Hixie> takkaria: did you implement the commented out svg stuff in hubbub? or am i misremembering
  602. # [22:39] <Hixie> hsivonen: there are plenty of things that are interesting in newer versions of java (i don't know if this is <=5 or >5), like generics, lambdas, etc
  603. # [22:39] <Hixie> hard to do those in libraries
  604. # [22:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: generics are 5
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  606. # [22:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: as I understand it, lamdbas aren't in a release version of Java
  607. # [22:42] <hsivonen> (the idea seems a bit like lipstick on a pig in the case of java)
  608. # [22:44] <Hixie> could have sworn they'd been added to the standard
  609. # [22:44] * Hixie shrugs
  610. # [22:44] <Hixie> i don't know java
  611. # [22:45] <Hixie> i just like watching the java talks we have at work because they're given by really good presentators :-)
  612. # [22:46] <jcranmer> Hixie: lambdas aren't in Java
  613. # [22:46] <jcranmer> you're referring to closures, I'm guessing
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  615. # [22:47] <jcranmer> most of the interesting stuff is in 5
  616. # [22:47] <Hixie> closures were another feature that was added later, yes
  617. # [22:47] <Hixie> maybe lambdas got cut
  618. # [22:47] <jcranmer> it's not added yet
  619. # [22:47] <Hixie> ah ok
  620. # [22:47] <Hixie> well like i said, i don't know jack shit about java, so i'll shut up now :-)
  621. # [22:48] <jcranmer> I oppose closures personally for various reasons, most notably because "too much syntax and too much catering to corner cases for too little benefit"
  622. # [22:48] <jcranmer> someone referred to making "return" and "return;" do *entirely* different things
  623. # [22:49] <jcranmer> fortunately, the closures people are still fighting over the some of the more egregious additions
  624. # [23:02] <sidda> Hixie: This is a question regarding data framing in the WebSockets protocol. The protocol draft says the contents of the DataFrame should be UTF8 encoded. Can 2 strings (each null terminated) be sent in one dataframe? Also, can one large string straddle across 2 dataframes?
  625. # [23:03] <Hixie> a dataframe defines a single string. A string can contain NULLs. You can't straddle two dataframes because then they would be two strings.
  626. # [23:06] <sidda> Thanks Hixie
  627. # [23:08] <sidda> Wait, if String can contain a null, then existing decoders would stop at that null right. So, NULL can only occur in the end correct?
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  629. # [23:11] <Hixie> why would a decoder stop at null?
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  632. # [23:28] <roc> I think XUL is proprietary, in that control over its evolution is governed by Mozilla alone
  633. # [23:29] <roc> but it's better than other similar proprietary technologies by being based as much as possible on open standards (DOM, CSS, etc)
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  635. # [23:30] <Hixie> xul was just used as an example -- the original debate was over whether java was proprietary now that it "is open source"
  636. # [23:30] <roc> and hopefully eventually all its functionality will be supported in open standards and then it can go away (remaining in Mozilla products as a compatibility layer only) and we can all breathe a sigh of relief
  637. # [23:30] <roc> oh
  638. # [23:30] <roc> Java's not proprietary
  639. # [23:31] <roc> stakeholders other than Sun have significant input into its evolution
  640. # [23:31] <jcranmer> like Google
  641. # [23:31] <roc> that's one
  642. # [23:31] <jcranmer> IBM
  643. # [23:31] <roc> another
  644. # [23:31] <jcranmer> I'd have to look at the JSPs to know others off the top of my head
  645. # [23:32] <jcranmer> I think Apple has some say as well
  646. # [23:33] <jcranmer> I'd quite likely say that Java is less proprietary than XUL
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  649. # [23:35] <Hixie> it's certainly billed that way, yes.
  650. # [23:36] <roc> maybe Sun has undue influence. It's a question of degree
  651. # [23:36] <roc> ostensibly C# is governed by an ISO committee but in practice all decisions are made by Microsoft
  652. # [23:37] <jcranmer> WP has at least 16 JVM impls
  653. # [23:37] <Hixie> and win32 and .NET have multiple implementations too
  654. # [23:37] <Hixie> as has flash
  655. # [23:38] <jcranmer> GCJ, Sun's JVM, and IBM's are three major implementations
  656. # [23:38] <Hixie> i don't think anyone is arguing java doesn't have multiple implementations :-)
  657. # [23:38] <roc> the situation with Java is a bit better since people take implementations other than Sun's seriously
  658. # [23:39] <jcranmer> right
  659. # [23:39] <jcranmer> I've seen code that checks for at least three or four different JVM versions
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  661. # [23:43] <jcranmer> so I'd claim it's not quite under the category of "propiterary"
  662. # [23:44] <jcranmer> even if I spelled that right
  663. # [23:45] <gsnedders> proprietary
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  670. # [23:52] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-35-200.range217-44.btcentralplus.com)
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  672. # [23:58] <hdh> Philip`: webkit in OpenGL http://www.atoker.com/blog/2008/06/12/webkit-meta-a-new-standard-for-in-game-web-content/
  673. # Session Close: Fri Jul 25 00:00:00 2008

The end :)