/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-07-28 / end

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  55. # [10:36] <melvster> Hi All, looking at example 2.1 http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/#html-syntax I am wondering if the <p> should be closed?
  56. # [10:37] <hsivonen> melvster: no need to close it there
  57. # [10:37] <melvster> is it because it's the last node?
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  59. # [10:38] <hsivonen> yes, the last p node in a container doesn't need to be closed
  60. # [10:38] <melvster> hsivonen: OK thanks!
  61. # [10:39] <zcorpan> melvster: "A p element's end tag may be omitted if the p element is immediately followed by an address, article, aside, blockquote, datagrid, dialog, dir, div, dl, fieldset, footer, form, h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6, header, hr, menu, nav, ol, p, pre, section, table, or ul, element, or if there is no more content in the parent element."
  62. # [10:40] <melvster> zcorpan: thanks again, i should have read that first
  63. # [10:40] <zcorpan> no worries :)
  64. # [10:41] <zcorpan> though <p><article> has a bad back compat story
  65. # [10:42] <zcorpan> and <p><form> is buggy in some browsers
  66. # [10:42] <zcorpan> <p><hr> in ie too iirc
  67. # [10:42] <zcorpan> and <p><table>
  68. # [10:43] <hsivonen> which RFC defines the syntax for charset names?
  69. # [10:43] * hsivonen should keep better notes in source comments
  70. # [10:43] <zcorpan> <p>x<hr> is different in ie
  71. # [10:47] <hsivonen> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2978 apparently
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  73. # [10:59] <zcorpan> hmm, the bail-out list could be different for mathml and svg so that <svg><font> is allowed but <math><font> not
  74. # [11:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: is it safe to refer to http://www.whatwg.org/style/specification from elsewhere? is that URI expected to point to a "Working Draft" style?
  75. # [11:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: or should I copy the style sheet?
  76. # [11:01] <hsivonen> (I'm assuming the style sheet is covered by the WHATWG document license)
  77. # [11:02] <zcorpan> could also add <a>, <script> and <style> to the mathml list
  78. # [11:02] <Hixie> it's covered by whatever license you want
  79. # [11:02] <Hixie> i make no promises about not changing it
  80. # [11:02] <Hixie> it's not working draft vs any other kind of spec though
  81. # [11:03] <Hixie> iirc i have a class on the body element to decide the 'worker draft' banner
  82. # [11:03] <zcorpan> yep
  83. # [11:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok.
  84. # [11:03] <zcorpan> Hixie: what do you think about different bail-out lists (see above)?
  85. # [11:03] <hsivonen> (now that I think about it, I already saw zcorpan use the class on body)
  86. # [11:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan: one possibility is bailing out on font only if it has the kind of attributes presentational HTML has
  87. # [11:06] <zcorpan> hsivonen: oh yep didn't think of that
  88. # [11:06] <zcorpan> not sure which is better
  89. # [11:07] <Hixie> zcorpan: i'm not yet convinced we can add <svg><font>, need to study that further
  90. # [11:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: we could also require a <defs> context
  91. # [11:08] <Hixie> that would be profiling svg in a more weird way
  92. # [11:08] <Hixie> it's one thing to say "you can't use font"
  93. # [11:08] <Hixie> it's another to say "you can use font in these specific cases..."
  94. # [11:09] <hsivonen> Isn't <font> in practice always used as a child of <defs> in non-contrived SVG?
  95. # [11:11] <zcorpan> Hixie: doesn't not bailing on <script> break some pages with <math><script> ?
  96. # [11:11] <zcorpan> (or style/a)
  97. # [11:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: could you please add ids to the paragraphs starting with "In the foo state," and giving the conformance reqs for the shape attribute states for image map area?
  98. # [11:12] <hsivonen> s/shape/coords/
  99. # [11:12] <Hixie> hsivonen: not to my knowledge, why would you bother with the <defs>?
  100. # [11:12] <Hixie> if you want changes, send mail
  101. # [11:13] <Hixie> i'm not near the editor right now
  102. # [11:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm just generalizing from the stuff Philip` found in Wikipedia
  103. # [11:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok. I'll send mail
  104. # [11:13] <Hixie> thx
  105. # [11:14] <Hixie> i think basing it on attributes would be better than on context, given that the whole point is to bail if someone does something stupid
  106. # [11:14] <Hixie> they're more likely to put an html font after a bunch of random svg copied and pasted, than to put svg font attributes on an html font element
  107. # [11:15] <zcorpan> Hixie: makes sense
  108. # [11:15] <Hixie> oh btw someone sent me mail about a major bug in the parser that i need to fix
  109. # [11:15] <Hixie> basically the generic cdata element parsing algorithm thingy totally doesn't work with document.write()
  110. # [11:16] <Hixie> consider <script>document.write("<style>a");document.write("b</style>")</script>
  111. # [11:16] <Hixie> (or worse, nested <script> elements)
  112. # [11:16] * hsivonen fires up his GWT test harness...
  113. # [11:16] <Hixie> so i'm going to split the cdata algorithm into its own state
  114. # [11:17] <Hixie> instead of being a tokeniser pull, bring it in line with everything else (tokeniser push)
  115. # [11:17] <zcorpan> Hixie: why doesn't that work?
  116. # [11:17] <Hixie> is there anything else that pulls from the tokeniser at this point?
  117. # [11:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: no. (and I've already implemented everything as push)
  118. # [11:18] <Hixie> zcorpan: because at the end of the document.write() input stream the tokeniser is stopped and the tree construction stage is exitted, so you lose the fact that you're in the middle of a pulling step
  119. # [11:18] <zcorpan> Hixie: ah
  120. # [11:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: did you implement the generic cdata thing as having a new variable to preserve the source state?
  121. # [11:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: or?
  122. # [11:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: I implemented it as a flag in the tree builder
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  124. # [11:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: and it appears that your example above breaks it :-(
  125. # [11:19] <Hixie> ah, somewhat like the earlier split of insertion modes vs states?
  126. # [11:19] <Hixie> oh?
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  128. # [11:20] <hsivonen> at least when using WebKit as the engine in GWT, "b" never ends up inside the style element
  129. # [11:20] <hsivonen> it's completely lost somewhere
  130. # [11:20] <Hixie> fun
  131. # [11:20] <Hixie> if you replace style with script the problem becomes worse
  132. # [11:20] <Hixie> because the element is added with the end tag, not the start tag
  133. # [11:20] <Hixie> so you end up losing the element altogether in a naive push implementation
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  137. # [11:22] <Philip`> <script>document.write('<style></sty');document.write('le>')</script> - how would that work with the tokeniser upon seeing the "</", since the "[if] the next few characters do not match the tag name of the last start tag token emitted" condition wouldn't make sense at that point?
  138. # [11:22] <hsivonen> I'm trying to review what exactl I'm doing but Eclipse beachballs on me
  139. # [11:22] <Philip`> Wait, do I mean <style>?
  140. # [11:23] <Philip`> Oh, yes, I think I do
  141. # [11:23] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, i noticed the same problem with the <![CDATA and <!DOCTYPE tokenising
  142. # [11:24] <Hixie> Philip`: but that's easy to fix, you just say that the tokeniser stops when it's missing data to resolve an ambiguous state and wave your hand and move on
  143. # [11:24] <Hixie> Philip`: "implementation detail"
  144. # [11:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: here's what I do:
  145. # [11:24] <hsivonen> 1) Everything is tokenizer push
  146. # [11:24] <hsivonen> 2) tree builder has a variable called cdataOrRcdataTimesToPop
  147. # [11:24] <Philip`> Hixie: Can't you do the same hand-waving in the generic CDATA whatnots, then?
  148. # [11:25] <Hixie> Philip`: no, because when you abort that tree construction stage you return the previous one, which is in the middle of doing the cdata processing
  149. # [11:25] <hsivonen> 3) If the spec calls for pushing the head element on stack first, cdataOrRcdataTimesToPop is set to 2. else, it is set to 1
  150. # [11:25] <hsivonen> 4) endTag pops cdataOrRcdataTimesToPop times
  151. # [11:26] <hsivonen> and zeros cdataOrRcdataTimesToPop
  152. # [11:26] <Philip`> Ah
  153. # [11:26] <Hixie> ah
  154. # [11:26] <Hixie> that won't work :-)
  155. # [11:26] <Hixie> but makes sense given the spec today
  156. # [11:26] <hsivonen> 5) if cdataOrRcdataTimesToPop > 0, characters just accumulate and returns early without inspecting insertion mode
  157. # [11:27] <Hixie> anyway dunno when i'll fix this, i expect it's in the coming few weeks though
  158. # [11:27] <hsivonen> It bothers me that I don't know what happened to "b" in the GWT case
  159. # [11:27] <Hixie> i've been avoiding the parser folder because i've been hoping the svgwg will fix the issues you, takkaria, and myself raised with their proposal
  160. # [11:28] <Hixie> but i guess eventually i'll go in and deal with it
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  162. # [11:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: well, both takkaria and I said we'd prefer your/zcorpan's suggestion
  163. # [11:29] <Hixie> apparently <datagrid> is the next target
  164. # [11:29] <Hixie> hsivonen: zcorpan claims the svgwg proposal is as much his as the current spec's :-P
  165. # [11:31] <Hixie> ok bed time nn
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  182. # [14:07] <hsivonen> Does HTML5 define where LWS is really allowed in the http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2045#section-5.1 syntax for Web purposes?
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  185. # [14:41] <gsnedders> hsivonen: no
  186. # [14:43] <hsivonen> gsnedders: OK. thanks.
  187. # [14:43] <hsivonen> gsnedders: do you happen to document it for HTTP?
  188. # [14:43] <gsnedders> (and I don't know either)
  189. # [14:43] <hsivonen> it appears I have made up a definition then
  190. # [14:43] <hsivonen> I'll just write that down in my spec
  191. # [14:43] <gsnedders> I'm still (occasionally) working on the overall syntax of the entire HTTP structure
  192. # [14:43] <gsnedders> Not got to anything so exact as parsing actual headers :P
  193. # [14:56] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/html5-datatypes/ comments welcome
  194. # [14:58] <Philip`> hsivonen: s/hecking/checking/
  195. # [14:59] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  196. # [15:03] <hsivonen> selittäkääpä, miten kongressihenkilöt voivat istua tuntikaupalla hearingissa käymättä vessassa
  197. # [15:07] <zcorpan> is this valid? <img usemap=# src=x><map name>
  198. # [15:09] <hsivonen> zcorpan: no, the name attribute must be non-empty
  199. # [15:09] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ah
  200. # [15:09] <hsivonen> zcorpan: but according to the datatype lib, usemap=# is valid (checking referential integrity happens elsewhere)
  201. # [15:10] <zcorpan> ok
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  207. # [15:26] <hsivonen> hendry: did you get an instance of the CSS validator running? If yes, under which servlet container?
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  214. # [15:46] <zcorpan> hmm, why does name allow whitespace
  215. # [15:47] <hsivonen> zcorpan: in validator or in spec?
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  217. # [15:47] <zcorpan> hsivonen: in spec
  218. # [15:47] <zcorpan> at leat if id is not present
  219. # [15:51] <hsivonen> I've now postponed rel checking well over a year.
  220. # [15:51] <hsivonen> I wonder if the rel stuff is still at risk...
  221. # [15:52] <hsivonen> at least the registry was discussed relatively recently on public-html
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  224. # [16:07] <Lachy> I finally found some time to review the SVG WG's proposal. Personally, I'm not particularly fond of it
  225. # [16:09] <Lachy> there isn't really sufficient justification for some of the requirements it tries to address, beyond keeping it theoretically-pure-well-formed XML
  226. # [16:15] <zcorpan> should we add alt to embed? apparently opera supports it
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  228. # [16:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan: would it be rendered when the plugin isn't installed?
  229. # [16:20] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yes
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  231. # [16:23] <hsivonen> hmm. Flash is supposed to be accessible in itself. Video plug-ins are supposed to get superceded by <video>. Apart from Silverlight, newer plugins tend to be non-rendered and provide JS APIs
  232. # [16:24] <hsivonen> like Gears or the Garmin plugin for integrating GPS devices
  233. # [16:24] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@216.18.1.210) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  234. # [16:25] <hsivonen> it seems to me that the use case would be customizing the "Boohoo. Go install a plugin." message that e.g. Firefox generates as UI.
  235. # [16:25] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip110.unival.com)
  236. # [16:26] <zcorpan> i guess
  237. # [16:28] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  238. # [16:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: s/strings match/strings that match/
  239. # [16:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: might squeeze in a "the" in there too
  240. # [16:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan: fixed, thanks
  241. # [16:30] <zcorpan> hsivonen: what is xml-name used for?
  242. # [16:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it's used for XHTML 1.0 backports. it probably shouldn't be in the lib in theory, but putting it there is convenient for me
  243. # [16:31] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok
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  250. # [17:03] * gsnedders wonders whether to do something that'll make him unpopular with many around here: serve XHTML as text/html
  251. # [17:05] <gsnedders> Actually, I can just do this in Ruby, and use a pre-existing HTML parser!
  252. # [17:05] <gsnedders> Yay!
  253. # [17:10] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) ("Leaving")
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  270. # [19:00] * Philip` discovers that if he makes a Jabber client send namespace-ill-formed XML to a group chat, then ejabberd propagates it to all the other clients and they detect the error and disconnect
  271. # [19:01] <Philip`> and when they reconnect and rejoin the group, the server helpfully sends the past messages to the newly-joining clients, which breaks them again
  272. # [19:02] <gsnedders> Hahahaha.
  273. # [19:02] <gsnedders> Awesome.
  274. # [19:03] <gsnedders> I think something is wrong. Fx fails all of the HTTP parsing tests
  275. # [19:04] <Philip`> I'd be more concerned if it passed them all
  276. # [19:06] <gsnedders> Yes, but it doesn't even try running them.
  277. # [19:06] <gsnedders> Which is why it claims to fail them all.
  278. # [19:06] <gsnedders> expected_xhr.onreadystatechange is never hit :\
  279. # [19:07] <gsnedders> Interesting.
  280. # [19:07] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  281. # [19:07] <gsnedders> Opera has changed behaviour with HTTP/0.9
  282. # [19:08] <gsnedders> Got status code 0, expected 200
  283. # [19:08] <gsnedders> Got status text , expected OK
  284. # [19:09] * takkaria chuckles at Philip` and his XML games
  285. # [19:09] <Philip`> (It works against individuals by sending normal messages too, but the server doesn't appear to resend them after the first time)
  286. # [19:09] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  287. # [19:10] <jmb> Philip`: that's pretty nasty :)
  288. # [19:12] <gsnedders> Why is onreadystatechange never called?
  289. # [19:24] <gsnedders> readyState is getting changed :\
  290. # [19:27] <Philip`> https://support.process-one.net/browse/EJAB-680
  291. # [19:27] <takkaria> Philip`: would you be able to give me some statistics on the number of pages which include CRs and NULs in attribute values?
  292. # [19:29] <gsnedders> Philip`: Also, could you see if you have any pages that start with "HTTP" case-insensitively but not case-sensitively?
  293. # [19:31] <Philip`> takkaria: Maybe - I guess it should be easy to modify hsivonen's tokeniser to detect that
  294. # [19:31] <Philip`> takkaria: Do you care how many times per page it occurs, or just how many pages it occurs >= 1 time on?
  295. # [19:31] <takkaria> Philip`: the latter
  296. # [19:31] <Philip`> gsnedders: By "pages", do you mean the body of the page (i.e. after parsing and stripping the HTTP headers)?
  297. # [19:32] <gsnedders> Philip`: No, I mean the entire response
  298. # [19:32] <gsnedders> (i.e., what the response-line begins with)
  299. # [19:32] <Philip`> gsnedders: In that case, no
  300. # [19:32] <gsnedders> or status-line, or whatever it's called
  301. # [19:32] <Philip`> gsnedders: since I didn't save the raw response bytes, only the parsed representation
  302. # [19:33] <gsnedders> Philip`: Ah.
  303. # [19:33] <Philip`> gsnedders: (since I couldn't see a way to make HttpClient return the raw response bytes)
  304. # [19:33] <gsnedders> Philip`: Write your own! :P
  305. # [19:33] <Philip`> gsnedders: My own HTTP client? I can't do that until someone's written a proper spec on how to write one :-p
  306. # [19:34] <gsnedders> Philip`: Oh, all I'm writing is how to parse the response/request. You don't need to do either of those :P
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  310. # [19:58] <Philip`> takkaria: It looks like about 10% have \r in attribute values somewhere, and about 0% have \0
  311. # [19:58] <Philip`> and of those 0%, most are JPEG and PDF files
  312. # [19:59] <Philip`> Wait a minute, I'll change it to only look at text/html...
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  316. # [20:01] <Philip`> http://www.slovanova.sk/ - aha, actual HTML with a \0
  317. # [20:03] * Philip` waits ten minutes while it searches through all the other files
  318. # [20:04] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  319. # [20:05] <takkaria> 10% is an interestingly high value
  320. # [20:08] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote closed the connection)
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  322. # [20:17] <Philip`> takkaria: From something like 126989 text/html pages in total:
  323. # [20:17] <Philip`> 16 \0 in attribute value
  324. # [20:17] <Philip`> 10622 \r in attribute value
  325. # [20:17] <Philip`> 47 \r\n in attribute value
  326. # [20:18] <Philip`> (Those "\r\n" are slightly bogus - it should have aborted after finding the first "\r", but I didn't detect \rs that came after entities and got unconsumed, so it didn't notice until it got to the \n)
  327. # [20:20] <Philip`> takkaria: http://philip.html5.org/data/attr-chars.txt lists them all
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  339. # [22:06] * aroben is now known as aroben|meeting
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  341. # [22:18] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  342. # [22:33] <weinig> Hixie: ping
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  345. # [22:48] * gsnedders still needs a decent idea for his computing project for this year for school :\
  346. # [22:50] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  347. # [22:50] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  348. # [22:56] <gsnedders> 40 hours project, with 20 hours for impl.
  349. # [22:59] <Philip`> A day of coding? That's not much :-p
  350. # [22:59] <gsnedders> You aren't expected to do it in one day :P
  351. # [22:59] * Joins: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  352. # [23:00] <Philip`> That doesn't demonstrate much dedication
  353. # [23:00] <gsnedders> You're only expected to have an hour of class time per day five days a week
  354. # [23:01] <gsnedders> Of course, I'm doing it out of class, so I have none :P
  355. # [23:06] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
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  369. # [23:56] * gsnedders would like to do something in Haskell or C/C++
  370. # [23:56] <gsnedders> But I can't decide what :P
  371. # [23:57] <gsnedders> Anybody got any suggestions?
  372. # [23:57] * Joins: hasather_ (n=hasather@cm-84.215.63.253.getinternet.no)
  373. # Session Close: Tue Jul 29 00:00:00 2008

The end :)