/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-07-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jul 29 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@207.59.145.201)
  4. # [00:01] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well lerning Haskell might be a 20 hour project on its own. Not much to hand in though
  5. # [00:01] <gsnedders> jgraham: That's problematic, especially when it counts for 40% of the final grade.
  6. # [00:02] <jgraham> You could implement a domain-specific language for something
  7. # [00:02] <gsnedders> Writing an html5 parser is too big, probably
  8. # [00:02] <jgraham> gsnedders: an html5 would probably take longer, yes
  9. # [00:03] <jgraham> http://effbot.org/zone/simple-top-down-parsing.htm seems like a nice article about language parsing
  10. # [00:03] <jgraham> s/an html5/an html5 parser/
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  12. # [00:04] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yeah, writing HTML 5 would take a while :P
  13. # [00:04] <jgraham> Well if you manage it in 20 hours Hixie will look a bit silly :)
  14. # [00:06] <gsnedders> hmmm.
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  18. # [00:17] <gsnedders> I could do something based on trying to detect spam
  19. # [00:18] * weinig is now known as weinig|kaphine
  20. # [00:20] <jgraham> gsnedders: I have a problem that I actually would like a solution to but don't currently have time to implement
  21. # [00:20] <gsnedders> jgraham: What problem? :P
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  23. # [00:23] <jgraham> Many scientists use the arXiv prepint servers to keep up to date with current research. The basically provide a daily list of new preprints ordered by submission time. They are broadly categorised but only in astrophysics / high energy physics / computer science / etc. much broader than the expertise of most readers
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  25. # [00:23] <jgraham> The time ordering creates two problems. One is that it is hard to find things that you are interested in, especially if they appear down the list somewhere
  26. # [00:24] <jgraham> The second is that papers appearing near the top of the listings tend to be noticed more and get more citations --- this is a measured effect
  27. # [00:25] <jgraham> What i want is an interface to the preprint server where the day's listings are ordered according to my personal reading habits
  28. # [00:25] <jgraham> These would be deermied automatically using some sort of machine learing algorithm
  29. # [00:27] <jgraham> Basically the way I imagine it working is that when you click on a paper the keywords from that paper (authors, title, abstract text) are added to some weighting which increases the probability of papers with similar authors, titles or abstracts appearing at the top
  30. # [00:28] <jgraham> This is basically just a spam classificaion problem except that you're trying to pick out the most useful items and present them first
  31. # [00:28] <jgraham> Rather than discard the least useful items
  32. # [00:28] <Hixie> weinig|kaphine: pong
  33. # [00:29] <jgraham> gsnedders: I don't know how easy writing the actual machine learning bit would be but you might be able to find library code for that
  34. # [00:30] <jgraham> In fact I know you can because I looked when I first hough about this problem
  35. # [00:30] * weinig|kaphine is now known as weinig
  36. # [00:30] <weinig> hey Hixie
  37. # [00:30] <gsnedders> jgraham: It'd be nice to do that with feeds, to do it in more generic form
  38. # [00:31] <weinig> Hixie: I as curious if you were considering specifying the rules for HTML entity error recovery at some point in HTML5?
  39. # [00:31] <weinig> s/as/am/
  40. # [00:31] <jgraham> gsnedders: Sure, although that's not the problem that I'm interestedd in :)
  41. # [00:32] <gsnedders> jgraham: The logic used to detect whether an article is of interest or not is the same, though
  42. # [00:32] <Hixie> weinig: HTML entity error recovery?
  43. # [00:32] <gsnedders> And that, I expect, it the hard part.
  44. # [00:32] <weinig> Hixie: some thing akin to the issue described in https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4948
  45. # [00:33] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes, I agree that it's essentially the same problem
  46. # [00:33] <Hixie> weinig: that's all already defined
  47. # [00:33] <Hixie> weinig: note that it differs from attributes and in body text (the spec handles that too)
  48. # [00:33] <weinig> Hixie: it is? great!
  49. # [00:33] <gsnedders> jgraham: It's just a matter of plugging in the data source
  50. # [00:33] <weinig> couldn't find it in the text
  51. # [00:33] <weinig> will look again
  52. # [00:34] <Hixie> weinig: just start from the data state in the tokeniser (or the attribute value state in the tokeniser)
  53. # [00:34] <Hixie> weinig: and pretend you are parsing each of those cases
  54. # [00:34] * weinig nods
  55. # [00:34] <franksalim> gsnedders, jgraham: you would just need to generate a feed from arXiv if there isn't one already
  56. # [00:34] <Hixie> should all be hyperlinked properly
  57. # [00:35] <jgraham> franksalim: I'm pretty sure there is
  58. # [00:38] <jgraham> Although curiously it seems to be different to the web page
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  77. # [02:52] <Lachy> Stargate Continuum is awesome. One of the best films I've seen in a while. :-)
  78. # [02:53] <Hixie> hope my dvd arrives soon
  79. # [02:53] <Lachy> I just downloaded it. But I will definitely buy the DVD as soon as it's realeased in Australia
  80. # [02:54] <Hixie> my dvd is in kentucky apparently
  81. # [02:55] <Hixie> i got spoilt in several ways abotu continuum listening to the atlantis season 4 commentaries
  82. # [02:55] <Hixie> i know some of hte characters in it, where it was show, and i've seen some of the sets
  83. # [02:55] <Hixie> where it was shot, even
  84. # [02:56] <Lachy> I knew nothing about it before seeing it. I'd only seen a very short teaser trailer for it on my season 3 DVDs
  85. # [02:57] <Lachy> I've got about 20 minutes of it left to watch
  86. # [02:57] <Hixie> heh
  87. # [02:57] <Hixie> you are online while watching stargate!
  88. # [02:57] <Hixie> terrible
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  90. # [03:12] <Lachy> it's over now. Great ending.
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  93. # [03:27] <takkaria> weinig: I have a table of what HTML5 specifies here if that's useful
  94. # [03:27] <takkaria> weinig: I mean, for each of the cases attached to that bug
  95. # [03:29] <takkaria> weinig: WebKit seems closer to HTML5 than any of the other browsers already
  96. # [03:30] <takkaria> weinig: no, that's a lie; I thought the "Current" column would be WebKit, turns out it's just Firefox 3
  97. # [03:31] <takkaria> (since I'm using ff3)
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  122. # [08:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: is this thread on your radar: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Jul/0114.html ?
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  128. # [09:18] * hsivonen doesn't like it that some W3C specs don't come as a single HTML file
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  147. # [11:42] <Hixie> hsivonen: anything in particular?
  148. # [11:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: in the wai-xtech thread? the possibility of introducing a title-like attribute like aria-name that wouldn't be shown as a tooltip
  149. # [11:44] <Hixie> i hope they have fun with that
  150. # [11:45] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-tagmem-minutes.html#item03 is funny -- they cite html5 as being "new information"
  151. # [11:46] <Hixie> nevermind that html5 is just describing the status quo
  152. # [11:46] <hsivonen> in other news, I've learned that the MathML 2.0 allows xlink:href but the DTD allows both xlink:href and xlink:type
  153. # [11:46] <hsivonen> but neither explicitly allows the rest of XLink
  154. # [11:46] <Hixie> xlink:href only has meaning if there is an xlink:type
  155. # [11:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: according to DevMo, XLink 1.1 defaults to xlink:type=simple if absent
  156. # [11:47] <Hixie> devmo is describing mozilla's implementation
  157. # [11:47] <Hixie> not the spec's requirements
  158. # [11:47] <hsivonen> it purports to recount XLink 1.1 reqs
  159. # [11:47] * hsivonen goes see the actual spec
  160. # [11:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/TR/xlink11/#markup-reqs point #2
  161. # [11:49] <hsivonen> (aside: point #4 over there seems weird)
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  163. # [11:49] <Hixie> ah, they changed that in 1.1
  164. # [11:49] <hsivonen> also, it appears that MathML 2.0 does not allow xml:space
  165. # [11:49] <Hixie> oh, 1.1 isn't out yet
  166. # [11:49] <Hixie> that's still a wd
  167. # [11:49] <Hixie> that's why i didn't know about it
  168. # [11:50] <hsivonen> oh. right
  169. # [11:50] <hsivonen> Still, I'll pretend that xlink:type=simple is a talisman that can be omitted
  170. # [11:51] <hsivonen> more stuff to document about how Validator.nu deviates from RECs in order to work like users expect
  171. # [11:51] <hsivonen> and to implement first
  172. # [11:52] <Hixie> if you're going to ignore the xlink spec, i recommend ignoring it completely
  173. # [11:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: I've got a bug report that Validator.nu doesn't allow xlink:type on MathML elements
  174. # [11:53] <Hixie> RESOLVED INVALID
  175. # [11:53] <hsivonen> thereby giving unhelpful messages on content that contains legacy bits
  176. # [11:54] <Hixie> or RESOLVED FINDABETTERSPEC
  177. # [11:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm going to allow it, but only with the value "simple"
  178. # [11:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: for better or worse, Gecko supports it, so it has some real-world relevance
  179. # [11:59] <Hixie> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=332773
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  182. # [12:04] <hsivonen> hmm. I don't see XLink working in Firefox 3
  183. # [12:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: looks like XLink regressed between Firefox 2 and 3.
  184. # [12:06] <Hixie> aww, how unfortunate.
  185. # [12:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: seems unintentional since you bug is NEW
  186. # [12:07] <Hixie> my bug could be a dupe that the people "fixing" xlink didn't know about
  187. # [12:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: how would you propose linkifying bits of a MathML formula?
  188. # [12:08] <Hixie> <a href=""></a>
  189. # [12:09] <Hixie> if you really think xlink is dead in ff3 btw, please do comment on that bug to that effect
  190. # [12:09] <Hixie> i don't seem to have any tests for it
  191. # [12:09] <Hixie> or i would comment myself
  192. # [12:09] <hsivonen> OK.
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  195. # [12:23] * Hixie sends bad news to the htmlwg (well, bad news for some!)
  196. # [12:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: I added a comment to the bug.
  197. # [12:23] <Hixie> thanks
  198. # [12:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: are the "careful studies" available in public?
  199. # [12:28] <Hixie> i'm sure many are, spread over e-mails of many years
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  201. # [12:34] <Hixie> i'm amused as to how much of the latest tag minutes talk about html5
  202. # [12:34] <Hixie> i'm more amused by their characterisation of html5 as new information though
  203. # [12:34] <Hixie> it's like they never looked at the web when forming their original opinions
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  206. # [12:46] <gsnedders> Hixie: linky?
  207. # [12:46] <hsivonen> gsnedders: http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-tagmem-minutes.html#item03
  208. # [12:47] <Hixie> and 04
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  210. # [12:49] <hsivonen> someone else is drawing comparisons with religious denominations: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Jul/0141.html
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  212. # [12:51] <hsivonen> and to me, 05 seems to be decentralized extensibility of URIs in action
  213. # [13:00] * hsivonen doesn't like debugging Show Source
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  215. # [13:08] <hendry> can anyone who knows better about DOM mutation events can please look over my test? http://static.webvm.net/loader-test.html
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  218. # [13:27] <Hixie> i wonder if p. t. (webmaster) was trying to troll me
  219. # [13:27] <Hixie> and whether my response counts as being trolled or as trolling
  220. # [13:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think using the passive voice instead of 'we' would offend people less
  221. # [13:28] <Hixie> where would the fun be in that
  222. # [13:36] * Hixie pokes hsivonen
  223. # [13:37] <Philip`> When replying to emails in Gmail, why does it prefix the quoted message with a line "2008/7/29 Oliver Hunt <oliver@apple.com>:" and fail to insert any grammar? (Does this affect anyone except me?)
  224. # [13:39] <gDashiva> I get grammar
  225. # [13:39] <gsnedders> Philip`: What language? en-gb or en?
  226. # [13:40] <gsnedders> Why on earth are there bagpipes playing in the heavy mist in the park below my house?
  227. # [13:41] <gsnedders> No, it's on the other side of my house, someone practising in their drive
  228. # [13:41] <gsnedders> (Which is somewhat rational as it is an outdoor instrument, and completely deafening inside)
  229. # [13:41] <gDashiva> (and completely deafening outside as well)
  230. # [13:42] <gsnedders> gDashiva: No, only nearly completely deafening
  231. # [13:42] <Philip`> gsnedders: "English (UK)"
  232. # [13:42] <Philip`> (and using Gmail 2.0 or whatever the newish version is called)
  233. # [13:42] <gsnedders> Philip`: I've seen that have weird things before, thus I just use English :P
  234. # [13:43] <hsivonen> source highlighting is hard.
  235. # [13:44] * gsnedders turns his music up loud to drown out the bagpipes
  236. # [13:44] <Hixie> damnit, both hsivonen and myself fell into the trap of replying to sam
  237. # [13:44] <gsnedders> Now, can I be bothered to cook my own lunch?
  238. # [13:44] <Hixie> why do i fall into that trap every time
  239. # [13:44] <Hixie> bah i'm going to bed
  240. # [13:44] <Hixie> nn
  241. # [13:45] <Lachy> gsnedders, is the person playing the bagpipes in or out of tune?
  242. # [13:45] <gsnedders> Hixie: n00b
  243. # [13:45] <gsnedders> Lachy: mostly in tune, but squeaking a bit
  244. # [13:45] <Lachy> bagpipes always sound squeeky, so that's normal :-)
  245. # [13:45] <gsnedders> Lachy: Not when played well :)
  246. # [13:45] <gsnedders> (It's just very hard to)
  247. # [13:46] <Lachy> gsnedders, you're assuming it's possible to play them well.
  248. # [13:46] <gsnedders> Lachy: I have friends who can :)
  249. # [13:46] <gsnedders> My school has a reputable pipe band
  250. # [13:46] <hsivonen> I so wish CRLF didn't exist
  251. # [13:47] <Lachy> hsivonen, what problems is it causing?
  252. # [13:47] <hsivonen> Lachy: it makes tracking source location harder
  253. # [13:48] <hsivonen> Lachy: I blame CRLF for the source location bug zcorpan found when validating forums.whatwg.org
  254. # [13:48] <Lachy> why? If your input stream processor normalises all CR and CRLF to LF, and then reports based on line numbers and character positions within the line, what's the problem?
  255. # [13:49] <hsivonen> Lachy: having a separate input stream processor is inefficient
  256. # [13:49] <hsivonen> Lachy: can't have that
  257. # [13:50] <Lachy> why would you need a separate processor?
  258. # [13:51] <Lachy> if the input goes through one input stream processor, and the output of that is used by everything else as needed, you only need one, and there's no problem
  259. # [13:51] <Lachy> I assume that would be how you have it?
  260. # [13:51] <hsivonen> Lachy: that's not how I have it
  261. # [13:51] * Joins: tommorris_ (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net)
  262. # [13:51] <Lachy> ok
  263. # [13:51] <hsivonen> to allow efficient buffering, the additional layer of input stream preprocessing is eliminated
  264. # [13:52] <Lachy> ok
  265. # [13:52] <hsivonen> instead, the "preprocessing" happens in the tokenizer buffer
  266. # [13:53] <hsivonen> the tokenizer turns the CR into an LF in place. then it return to the driver signaling that it saw a CR
  267. # [13:53] <hsivonen> the driver checks if the next character is an LF and if it is, adjust buffer start position before re-entering the tokenizer
  268. # [13:54] <hsivonen> this way, the data isn't copied or moved in the buffer
  269. # [13:55] <hsivonen> also, having a real stream preprocessor could only work a char at a time, because document.write() writes to the unpreprocessed stream
  270. # [13:56] <hsivonen> anyway, CRLF really, really sucks
  271. # [13:56] <hsivonen> one of those things that probably seemed really simple at first
  272. # [13:58] <Lachy> yep. So we need to reinvent ASCII using only LF, and ditching many of the other useless control codes while we're at it.
  273. # [13:59] <gDashiva> ASCV
  274. # [13:59] <Lachy> ?
  275. # [13:59] <gDashiva> 5 > 2
  276. # [13:59] <gsnedders> ?
  277. # [13:59] <hsivonen> :-)
  278. # [14:00] <gsnedders> (I know where that comes from, but where the relevance to ASCV, and what is ASCV?)
  279. # [14:00] <gDashiva> II = 2, V = 5
  280. # [14:00] <gsnedders> ah.
  281. # [14:00] <gsnedders> Duh.
  282. # [14:00] <Lachy> heh
  283. # [14:01] <gsnedders> 5 > *, * ∈ ℝ, * ≠ 5.
  284. # [14:03] <hsivonen> the things that annoy me the most as a parser writer are CRLF and xmlns attributes
  285. # [14:05] <Philip`> The things that would annoy me most would be users
  286. # [14:06] <gDashiva> Warning: Your document contains CRLF, which makes the validator sad.
  287. # [14:06] <Philip`> Hmm, it seems we don't have consensus on whether consensus is overrated
  288. # [14:07] <gsnedders> Wow. 5 > 2 is over a year old.
  289. # [14:07] <Lachy> I wish we could make CRLF non-conforming
  290. # [14:07] <Lachy> screw the windows users who don't know how to configure their editors correctly.
  291. # [14:08] <gsnedders> Screw Windows.
  292. # [14:08] <gsnedders> :P
  293. # [14:08] <Philip`> gsnedders: I think mathematicians have know that for somewhat longer than a year
  294. # [14:08] <gsnedders> Philip`: Well, http://five-gt-two.spreadshirt.com/us/US/Shop/ is
  295. # [14:08] <Lachy> and especially Notepad for *still* not supporting LF on its own
  296. # [14:08] <Lachy> did anyone buy that shirt?
  297. # [14:09] <gsnedders> I know some people did. I never did.
  298. # [14:09] <Philip`> Lachy: About 10% of some set of pages have \r in attribute values (not even looking at any other characters in the page), so you'd make quite a large fraction of currently-valid pages become invalid
  299. # [14:09] <gsnedders> Lachy: Someone commented that they were the person with the 5 > 2 shirt at some µf meeting
  300. # [14:09] * Quits: tommorris (n=tommorri@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  301. # [14:10] <Lachy> we should make a real WHATWG or HTML5 shirt that actually looks good
  302. # [14:11] <Lachy> a nice polo shirt with the WHATWG's ?⃝ logo on it.
  303. # [14:11] <gDashiva> Didn't someone suggest a WHATWF, Mate? shirt once?
  304. # [14:11] <gDashiva> *TF
  305. # [14:13] * Hixie mumbles something about wishing p. t. (webmaster) would stop threatening him and actually ask for him to step down already
  306. # [14:13] <Hixie> all this posturing is getting tiring
  307. # [14:14] <Philip`> Has he not asked that already?
  308. # [14:14] <gsnedders> He certainly has.
  309. # [14:14] <Hixie> has he?
  310. # [14:15] * Philip` can't remember
  311. # [14:15] <Lachy> Hixie, would you step down if asked?
  312. # [14:15] <Hixie> i would love to step down as htmlwg editor
  313. # [14:15] <Philip`> Asked by whom?
  314. # [14:15] <Lachy> anyone
  315. # [14:16] <hsivonen> Lachy: well, stepping down because of RB or PT (webmaster) would suck
  316. # [14:16] <Lachy> Hixie, I assume you would remain as the WHATWG's editor though
  317. # [14:16] <Hixie> being able to just go back to the whatwg and not have to deal with the nutjobs in the htmlwg would make my year
  318. # [14:16] <Lachy> LOL
  319. # [14:16] <gsnedders> Hixie: What was this about wanting to avoid the specs diverging?
  320. # [14:17] <Hixie> i always said the whatwg would always be identical to or a superset of the htmlwg's spec
  321. # [14:17] <Lachy> keeping the whatwg spec a superset of the htmlwg spec could work in theory, unless the htmlwg spec does something totally crazy which is ignored by implementers
  322. # [14:17] <Hixie> (and that i'd diverge if the htmlwg made stupid decisions)
  323. # [14:17] <gsnedders> Which will happen.
  324. # [14:18] <Hixie> anyway i really should sleep
  325. # [14:18] <gsnedders> Hixie: Sleep is for losers.
  326. # [14:20] <Hixie> i'm responding to what might well be trolls now, so i really am a loser at this point :-)
  327. # [14:25] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-9ce5d616a76ff19f)
  328. # [14:27] * gsnedders concludes he really can't be bothered to cook lunch, and heads into town
  329. # [14:32] * Joins: Maurice` (n=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl)
  330. # [14:50] * hsivonen likes http://www.cuil.com/search?q=doctype
  331. # [14:52] <hsivonen> http://www.cuil.com/search?q=html5+validator isn't so good
  332. # [14:52] <hsivonen> and the image choices are a bit weird
  333. # [15:06] <Lachy> http://www.mikeonads.com/2008/07/13/using-your-browser-url-history-estimate-gender/
  334. # [15:07] <Lachy> http://www.cuil.com/search?q=Lachy&sl=long is not so good either, but http://www.cuil.com/search?q=Lachlan%20Hunt&sl=long is
  335. # [15:08] <Lachy> cuil doesn't turn into a verb as well as google does. Saying I just cuiled myself sounds weird.
  336. # [15:11] <Philip`> I don't even know how to pronounce Cuil
  337. # [15:28] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p3216-ipbf5106marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  338. # [15:28] <Lachy> Philip`, according the slashdot article I read about it yesterday, it's pronounced "cool"
  339. # [15:29] * gsnedders returns from getting lunch in town
  340. # [15:29] <Lachy> http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/28/068211&from=rss
  341. # [15:31] <Philip`> Lachy: That sounds like a fairly stupid name
  342. # [15:31] <Philip`> It's not even trying to disguise that it's trying to appear cool, and therefore it fails to be so
  343. # [15:32] <Philip`> (There's nothing less cool than trying hard to be cool)
  344. # [15:32] * hsivonen wonders if Cuil is going to be successful in Frech-language locales
  345. # [15:32] <hsivonen> French
  346. # [15:33] <gsnedders> Heh.
  347. # [15:33] <gsnedders> I never realised what Hixie said earlier today: the HTML 5 timetable is longer than how long the web has so long existed.
  348. # [15:34] <Philip`> How long will it be until that statement is no longer true?
  349. # [15:35] <gsnedders> Philip`: Depends on when you define the web as beginning
  350. # [15:35] <gsnedders> Philip`: And your speed.
  351. # [15:35] <gsnedders> It was all working in 1990
  352. # [15:35] <Philip`> I define it as whenever Wikipedia said it began
  353. # [15:35] <gsnedders> So 2009
  354. # [15:36] <Lachy> I'll try it out for a few weeks and see how it goes. I expect the results to be a little off since it's a new startup, but they could get better
  355. # [15:37] <Philip`> Oops, I was thinking of how long was left until the end of the HTML 5 timetable, versus how long the web has existed
  356. # [15:37] <gsnedders> Philip`: 2003 HTML 5 began
  357. # [15:37] <Philip`> in which case it'd be 2006
  358. # [15:38] <gsnedders> 2003–2022 is 19 years
  359. # [15:38] <Lachy> since the HTML5 timetable is only a guesstimate, and the beginning of the web is difficult to define, it's an impossible question to answer
  360. # [15:38] <Philip`> s/it'/the point at which they're equal woul/
  361. # [15:41] <Lachy> hmm, the new MacBooks are rumoured to have glass touchpads. I wonder what the advantage of that will be, if it's true
  362. # [15:41] <gsnedders> Lachy: Ooooo! Shiny!
  363. # [15:42] <Lachy> maybe it's like an iPhone screen
  364. # [15:43] <Philip`> It'll make your greasy fingerprints show up much more clearly
  365. # [15:44] * Philip` just wants Apple to make a touchpad driver for Windows that isn't pathetic
  366. # [15:44] <Lachy> I haven't tried the windows touchpad driver. What's wrong with it?
  367. # [15:44] <hsivonen> Philip`: Do you run Windows on a MacBook?
  368. # [15:45] <hsivonen> Without virtualization?
  369. # [15:45] <Philip`> hsivonen: Yes
  370. # [15:45] <Lachy> with Bootcamp?
  371. # [15:45] <hsivonen> Philip`: that seems wrong.
  372. # [15:45] <Philip`> since I mainly use it for playing games
  373. # [15:45] <Philip`> Lachy: Yes
  374. # [15:45] <Lachy> do you dualboot OSX too?
  375. # [15:45] <Lachy> Philip`, the games for Mac OS X are better than windows
  376. # [15:46] <Lachy> compare Solitare XL on OSX with Microsoft Solitaire on Windows, for instance.
  377. # [15:46] <Lachy> :-)
  378. # [15:47] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I forgot to mention: I fixed the source location issue with forums.whatwg.org
  379. # [15:47] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
  380. # [15:47] <Philip`> Lachy: The main problems are it doesn't do tap-to-click, and the drag-to-scroll thing is stupidly sensitive such that it's actually physically impossible to right click on a file in Explorer, because moving my hand to click the button makes the window scroll wildly up/down
  381. # [15:48] <Philip`> Lachy: It has OS X, but I pretty much never use it
  382. # [15:48] <Lachy> can't you adjust it in the settings?
  383. # [15:48] <Philip`> Lachy: I have Vista Business which doesn't come with any games at all, as far as I can see :-(
  384. # [15:49] <Philip`> but the internet solves that problem
  385. # [15:49] <Lachy> I would install windows under bootcamp to test it out, but I only have an XP upgrade disc available, and it needs a full version
  386. # [15:49] <Philip`> (Hooray for Steam)
  387. # [15:49] <Philip`> Lachy: There are no settings
  388. # [15:49] <Lachy> wtf? Not even in control panel?
  389. # [15:49] <Philip`> (except for the standard Windows ones, like how many lines you want to scroll per increment of the mouse wheel)
  390. # [15:49] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  391. # [15:49] <Lachy> oh, how sucky
  392. # [15:50] <Lachy> though Vista sucks in general. Why didn't you get XP?
  393. # [15:50] <Philip`> Mostly since I occasionally want to test software on Vista
  394. # [15:51] <Philip`> Also, it doesn't seem worse than XP; it's just different, and I've never used XP so that difference doesn't affect me :-)
  395. # [15:52] <gsnedders> XP is just 2000 with shiny graphics :)
  396. # [15:52] <Lachy> I used vista briefly on a friend's laptop, and it sucked so much, it was one of the reasons I switched to Mac
  397. # [15:52] <Philip`> but the Boot Camp drivers apparently have the same problems on XP
  398. # [15:52] * gsnedders doesn't think Vista is that bad
  399. # [15:52] <gsnedders> But it doesn't have a native unix-like shell, so it sucks.
  400. # [15:52] * Lachy notes that gsnedders' opinion is wrong
  401. # [15:53] <gsnedders> Lachy: Sure, that goes without saying, as it is my opinion.
  402. # [15:53] * Philip` turned off the Aero stuff, but decided not to switch to the Classic theme since he really ought to get used to the modern world
  403. # [15:53] <gsnedders> Philip`: So what? Aero Basic?
  404. # [15:54] * hsivonen thought Mac OS X and Ubuntu were the modern world
  405. # [15:54] <Lachy> maybe I should get a pirated version of vista to try it out briefly on my iMac and/or MBP
  406. # [15:54] <Lachy> or on my old crappy PC
  407. # [15:54] <gsnedders> Lachy: You can use it for up to 240 days without a license key or activation
  408. # [15:55] <Philip`> gsnedders: Yes, like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/59/Windows_Vista_Basic.png
  409. # [15:55] <Lachy> ah, ok. In that case, I may be able to borrow my friend's vista disc to do it
  410. # [15:55] <gsnedders> I think it's 240 days at least
  411. # [15:55] <gsnedders> That's what it is for 2008 Server
  412. # [15:55] <gsnedders> It's at least 60
  413. # [15:55] <Philip`> except with the Classic start menu since I've got too used to that over the past decade
  414. # [15:57] <gsnedders> Lachy: Only 120 for Vista
  415. # [15:57] <Lachy> I had the Vista Ultimate release candidate, but at the time, I couldn't use it much at the time since I was missing some important drivers for my network card
  416. # [15:57] <gsnedders> Lachy: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/948472
  417. # [15:57] <gsnedders> Lachy: Same instructions work o Vista, just s/60/30/g and s/240/120/g
  418. # [15:57] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  419. # [15:58] <Lachy> wtf? Why are they giving instructions on how to do that? What's the point if one can just run that command every 59 days
  420. # [15:58] <gsnedders> Lachy: You can only do it three times
  421. # [15:58] <Lachy> oh
  422. # [15:59] <gsnedders> Lachy: But yeah, it is rather stupid. May as well have it that long to start with
  423. # [15:59] <Lachy> well, then you just reinstall
  424. # [15:59] <gsnedders> Exactly
  425. # [15:59] <gsnedders> It's stupid :P
  426. # [15:59] <Philip`> They should give away all their software for free - that'd solve all the problems
  427. # [15:59] <Lachy> XP had a 30 day no-activation period
  428. # [16:00] <Lachy> but activation is annoying. I got myself a corporate edition that doesn't require activation, even though I own a legit copy
  429. # [16:00] <Philip`> Why is it annoying to type in a few dozen characters once when you're installing your computer?
  430. # [16:01] <Lachy> because I had installed XP on a few different machines and upgraded a few times, so I had to call the help centre to activate it over the phone.
  431. # [16:01] <Lachy> since I bought my copy in 2001, I've had several machines since then
  432. # [16:03] <Lachy> and they were all custom built machines, so none of them came with XP preinstalled
  433. # [16:09] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  434. # [16:20] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  435. # [16:28] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip110.unival.com)
  436. # [16:28] <zcorpan> "hundreds of test cases" -- http://www.w3.org/mid/488EE5BE.1030009@w3.org
  437. # [16:29] <zcorpan> seems underrated -- does svg really only have hundreds of test cases?
  438. # [16:29] <hsivonen> well, at least the HTML WG isn't the only WG with questions about evidence and accessibility
  439. # [16:32] <Philip`> The number of test cases seems fairly meaningless, since a test case could test a single aspect of a single feature or it could test hundreds
  440. # [16:33] <zcorpan> Philip`: the former is fare more common i'd think
  441. # [16:33] <zcorpan> s/fare/far/
  442. # [16:34] <takkaria> hundreds of test cases and thousands of pages of spec sounds like the wrong way round. :)
  443. # [16:34] <hsivonen> heh
  444. # [16:35] <zcorpan> hundreds of specs and thousands of pages of test cases?
  445. # [16:35] <Philip`> If I had to write dozens of lines of XML boilerplate for each test case then I'd try to write as few as possible and put as many feature tests as possible in each one :-)
  446. # [16:36] <zcorpan> Philip`: that's not what you did for the canvas testsuite :)
  447. # [16:36] <zcorpan> (for which i'm glad!)
  448. # [16:36] <Philip`> That's because I had no lines of XML boilerplate
  449. # [16:37] <zcorpan> does it matter if the boilerplate is XML or something else?
  450. # [16:37] <Philip`> No
  451. # [16:37] <zcorpan> i mean you generated the tests from script and they have a boilerplate
  452. # [16:37] <Philip`> So, it's because I had no lines of boilerplate :-)
  453. # [16:37] <zcorpan> really?
  454. # [16:38] <Philip`> Well, there's blank lines between the tests, for aesthetic appeal
  455. # [16:38] <zcorpan> did you write each test from scratch?
  456. # [16:38] <Philip`> The only necessary repeated stuff in the source file is the YAML field names, and those were only parts of lines, not actually lines :-)
  457. # [16:39] * gsnedders has stopped himself from getting spam
  458. # [16:39] <gsnedders> <form action="&#104;&#116;&#116;&#112;&#58;&#47;&#47;&#103;&#115;&#110;&#101;&#100;&#100;&#101;&#114;&#115;&#46;&#99;&#111;&#109;&#47;&#49;&#54;&#53;&#47;&#102;&#101;&#101;&#100;&#98;&#97;&#99;&#107;" method="post" id="commentform">
  459. # [16:39] <zcorpan> my point is that for an svg testsuite you could omit the boilerplate from the source file
  460. # [16:39] <gsnedders> Naïve spammers not using HTML parsers :)
  461. # [16:40] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  462. # [16:42] <Philip`> The nearly-minimal test case I can write is
  463. # [16:42] <Philip`> - name: something
  464. # [16:42] <Philip`> code: @assert true
  465. # [16:42] <Philip`> so there's only eleven fixed unavoidable non-whitespace characters
  466. # [16:43] * jcranmer notes that many WYSIWYG editors fail to perform "obvious" CSS simplification
  467. # [16:44] <takkaria> gsnedders: hopefully that will change with the advent of HTML5 parsing libraries
  468. # [16:44] <gsnedders> takkaria: Hopefully? :(
  469. # [16:46] <Philip`> zcorpan: For an SVG test suite you could do that, but it looks like http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/SVG/profiles/1.2T/test/svg/udom-node-201-t.svg?rev=1.4&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup is what they actually do, which is more than eleven characters
  470. # [16:48] <Philip`> I tend to use something like mailto:me&#X040;wherever because that's possibly more likely to break stupid HTML scrapers
  471. # [16:49] <jcranmer> on some of the pages I have, I've noted that even just sticking it in raw seems to miss most spambots, although I'll admit it's not a widely-distributed page
  472. # [16:50] <gsnedders> My email address is in far worse places than my website :P
  473. # [16:50] * Philip` is in favour of writing "desc: ..." rather than <d:OperatorScript xmlns:d="http://www.w3.org/2000/02/svg/testsuite/description/" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><p>...</p></d:OperatorScript>
  474. # [16:52] <takkaria> I used to care about not showing my email in public, but I have decent spam filters not
  475. # [16:52] <takkaria> s/not/now
  476. # [16:58] * Joins: svl (n=me@210.176.101.37)
  477. # [16:58] <gsnedders> takkaria: I just use character references for stuff like email and IM
  478. # [16:58] <zcorpan> Philip`: ouch
  479. # [16:59] <gsnedders> takkaria: Absolutely no hassle for any real users using a browser, hopeless for naïve spammers :P
  480. # [17:01] <Philip`> I just set robots.txt to disallow spammers from reading my pages
  481. # [17:02] <zcorpan> Philip`: naïve spammers don't read robots.txt
  482. # [17:02] <jcranmer> zcorpan: it probably works better than you think it does
  483. # [17:02] <hsivonen> I thought the naïve ones are the ones who honor it
  484. # [17:02] <zcorpan> or maybe it's the other way around: experienced spammers don't read robots.txt :P
  485. # [17:02] <jcranmer> although one thing to try would be to set up a way to get spambots caught in a loop but real bots respecting robots.txt wouldn't
  486. # [17:04] <gsnedders> Are we actually any better than the spammers themselves trying to do things like this?
  487. # [17:04] <Philip`> Maybe naive spammers use web crawlers whose default configuration makes them respect robots.txt
  488. # [17:04] <Philip`> gsnedders: Yes.
  489. # [17:05] <takkaria> you see right and wrong, I see a primeval battle for survival
  490. # [17:05] <Philip`> I don't think the primeval world had email
  491. # [17:05] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-9ce5d616a76ff19f)
  492. # [17:07] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  493. # [17:11] * tommorris_ is now known as tommorris
  494. # [17:13] <hsivonen> http://www.rpbourret.com/xml/NamespacesFAQ.htm
  495. # [17:13] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  496. # [17:13] <hsivonen> that's a lot of questions
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  498. # [17:14] <gDashiva> When your FAQ has an executive summary, or even worse, two...
  499. # [17:16] <gDashiva> Am I the only one who feels it's a bad idea to call it 'URI reference' when it can't be dereferenced?
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  501. # [17:19] <Philip`> That site has (almost) a dozen XML namespace myths too
  502. # [17:19] <Philip`> which seems to indicate that it may occasionally be misunderstood
  503. # [17:19] * Maurice` is now known as Maurice
  504. # [17:19] <Philip`> Hmm, "Myth #1: XML namespaces exist"
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  524. # [19:48] <bradee-oh> Hixie: around?
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  551. # [21:49] <Hixie> bradee-oh: i can be
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  554. # [21:59] <gsnedders> Hixie: Don't give in to people's demands!
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  559. # [22:37] <bradee-oh> Hixie: nm, I found the answer in the archived version of you ;)
  560. # [22:42] <Hixie> k
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  585. # Session Close: Wed Jul 30 00:00:00 2008

The end :)