/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-07-30 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 30 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <Hixie> good lord
  4. # [00:02] <Hixie> i just came across an e-mail in the input-for-whatwg-navigation-and-frames folder that says:
  5. # [00:02] <Hixie> Subject: When moving to a new document, stop scripts, event handlers, etc
  6. # [00:02] <Hixie> From: Past Ian <ian@hixie.ch>
  7. # [00:02] <Hixie> To: Future Ian <ian@hixie.ch>
  8. # [00:03] <webben> Hixie: Ha. Surely it's only when you start getting emails /from/ Future Ian that you're going to be really surprised. ;)
  9. # [00:03] <Hixie> :-)
  10. # [00:10] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.96.56)
  11. # [00:15] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-32ca08a792f2d954)
  12. # [00:18] * Quits: epeus (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-69b2676285f7d33b) ("The computer fell asleep")
  13. # [00:26] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@adsl-75-61-80-188.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  14. # [00:27] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  15. # [00:36] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  16. # [00:42] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@adsl-75-61-80-188.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  17. # [00:49] * Quits: hasather_ (n=hasather@cm-84.215.63.253.getinternet.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  18. # [00:51] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
  19. # [00:57] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@216.18.1.210) (K-lined)
  20. # [01:12] * Joins: starjive (i=beos@213-66-217-32-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  21. # [01:22] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  22. # [01:27] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-27c79573682e5cba) (Connection timed out)
  23. # [01:30] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-67-180-49-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  24. # [01:32] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  25. # [01:42] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-92-207.karoo.KCOM.COM) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9/2008061013]")
  26. # [01:42] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip110.unival.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  27. # [01:48] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-67-180-49-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  28. # [01:57] * Joins: heycam` (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  29. # [02:01] * Joins: kingryan (n=ryan@adsl-99-150-208-163.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  30. # [02:22] <Philip`> http://developer.apple.com/internet/webcontent/XMLHttpRequestExample/example.html - in getElementTextNS: hooray for browser sniffing (which probably doesn't even work in IE7)
  31. # [02:28] <kingryan> Hixie: you around?
  32. # [02:28] * Quits: kingryan (n=ryan@adsl-99-150-208-163.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  33. # [02:28] * Joins: kingryan (n=ryan@adsl-99-150-208-163.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  34. # [02:40] <Hixie> kingryan: i am
  35. # [02:41] <kingryan> i think i actually figured it out
  36. # [02:41] <Hixie> ok
  37. # [02:41] <Hixie> my respect for sam is starting to seriously suffer
  38. # [02:41] <kingryan> i'm implementing http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1926&to=1927 and was trying to figure out how to trigger the useage of the unknown-type table
  39. # [02:41] <Hixie> what is this, like the eight millionth time he's asked us to consider the same thing?
  40. # [02:42] <kingryan> but then i realized i was only using the patterns as tests, and any real files would have 'binary bytes' later on in the file
  41. # [02:42] <Hixie> ah indeed
  42. # [02:57] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
  43. # [03:00] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  44. # [03:02] <kingryan> ok, that wasn't hard to implement
  45. # [03:02] <Hixie> cool
  46. # [03:05] <kingryan> it'll be in html5lib soon
  47. # [03:05] <kingryan> and AFAIK this is the first implementation of that section?
  48. # [03:06] <Hixie> gsnedders has some sort of code for this iirc
  49. # [03:06] <Hixie> but i'm not sure
  50. # [03:08] * Quits: kingryan (n=ryan@adsl-99-150-208-163.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  51. # [03:23] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  52. # [03:25] <Hixie> what to do about alt="".
  53. # [03:26] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@conference/mozilla-summit/x-94e988a57df2824d)
  54. # [03:26] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  55. # [03:27] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@conference/mozilla-summit/x-94e988a57df2824d) (Client Quit)
  56. # [03:37] * Joins: kingryan (n=ryan@c-24-5-77-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  57. # [03:48] * Joins: webben (n=benh@91.85.144.181)
  58. # [03:50] * Quits: webben (n=benh@91.85.144.181) (Client Quit)
  59. # [04:28] * Joins: mcarter (n=mcarter@li4-186.members.linode.com)
  60. # [04:33] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.96.56)
  61. # [04:36] * Joins: bradeeoh (n=bradeeoh@web7.webfaction.com)
  62. # [04:36] * Quits: bradee-oh (n=bradeeoh@web7.webfaction.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  63. # [04:46] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-32ca08a792f2d954) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  64. # [04:51] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@72-56-151-23.area2.spcsdns.net)
  65. # [04:57] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.96.56)
  66. # [05:27] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@99-203-191-104.area2.spcsdns.net)
  67. # [05:29] * Joins: Charl (n=charlvn@196-209-0-231-ndn-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za)
  68. # [05:43] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@72-56-151-23.area2.spcsdns.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  69. # [05:45] * weinig is now known as weinig|food
  70. # [05:47] * Quits: tantek_ (n=tantek@99-203-191-104.area2.spcsdns.net)
  71. # [06:01] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-24-5-43-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  72. # [06:05] * Joins: heyadayo2 (n=mcarter@li4-186.members.linode.com)
  73. # [06:24] * Quits: mcarter (n=mcarter@li4-186.members.linode.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  74. # [06:53] * Quits: heyadayo2 (n=mcarter@li4-186.members.linode.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  75. # [06:54] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@conference/mozilla-summit/x-d3ec046cbc0e864e)
  76. # [06:56] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@conference/mozilla-summit/x-7cd845e49d880056)
  77. # [07:06] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  78. # [07:06] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@conference/mozilla-summit/x-d3ec046cbc0e864e) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070208]")
  79. # [07:06] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@70-13-35-183.area2.spcsdns.net)
  80. # [07:28] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  81. # [07:29] * Quits: hdh0 (n=hdh@118.71.134.129) (Remote closed the connection)
  82. # [07:35] * weinig|food is now known as weinig
  83. # [08:00] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@70-13-35-183.area2.spcsdns.net)
  84. # [08:07] * Quits: heycam` (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  85. # [08:15] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.245)
  86. # [08:20] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@conference/mozilla-summit/x-7cd845e49d880056) ("g'night")
  87. # [08:35] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-a65e3201806614bc) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  88. # [08:40] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  89. # [08:43] * Quits: scotfl (n=scotfl@S0106001b114f914a.ss.shawcable.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  90. # [08:48] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  91. # [08:55] <hsivonen> Philip`: did you have a method for finding SVG images created with a specific program from Wikimedia Commons?
  92. # [09:13] * weinig is now known as weinig|snooze
  93. # [09:18] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  94. # [09:21] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-67-180-49-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  95. # [09:24] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@f049007019.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  96. # [09:39] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-67-180-49-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  97. # [09:43] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@f048003137.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  98. # [09:47] * Quits: kingryan (n=ryan@c-24-5-77-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  99. # [09:57] * Joins: heyadayo2 (n=mcarter@li4-186.members.linode.com)
  100. # [09:57] * Quits: heyadayo2 (n=mcarter@li4-186.members.linode.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  101. # [10:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: or do you have a method for dumping the URLs of SVG images in wikimedia commons?
  102. # [10:18] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl)
  103. # [10:38] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.245) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  104. # [10:41] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  105. # [10:48] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-5a853960c5e39435)
  106. # [10:50] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  107. # [10:53] * Joins: tndH_ (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-43-25.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  108. # [10:53] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  109. # [10:59] <Hixie> i wish more people would send input on the svgwg proposal
  110. # [11:00] * Hixie prods othermaciej
  111. # [11:00] <othermaciej> hey there Hixie
  112. # [11:00] <othermaciej> I will look at it
  113. # [11:00] <Hixie> :-)
  114. # [11:00] * zcorpan doesn't see what's wrong with the "fake code" example other than do while (node) { ... } should be do { ... } while (node)
  115. # [11:01] <othermaciej> it is hard for me to evaluate it as written; not sure if it is conceded that it will probably break somewhat more content than the spec proposal
  116. # [11:02] <Hixie> as i see it the key issue is over whether the requirements are right
  117. # [11:02] <zcorpan> i don't think it's clear to the svgwg that it does, but i could be wrong
  118. # [11:02] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I think it's a no-brainer that tokenizing the stream twice and the interface between layers being unbufferable cannot be good (or will effective preclude code reuse if optimized)
  119. # [11:02] <Hixie> their requirements and use cases were certainly very different than the set i distilled the original 600 e-mails' worth of input to when i came up with the proposal commented out
  120. # [11:03] <othermaciej> I can certainly comment on requirements
  121. # [11:03] <othermaciej> I have a hard time understanding what their proposal does, it is detailed yet surprisingly unclear
  122. # [11:05] <Hixie> that seems to be the svgwg house style
  123. # [11:06] <Hixie> (i've said the same about their specs for years)
  124. # [11:08] <Hixie> kind of the opposite of css, which has surprisingly clear specs which, when you start trying to work out the details, end up being oddly vague and contradictory
  125. # [11:08] * Joins: tndH_ (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-43-25.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  126. # [11:08] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-87-102-43-25.karoo.KCOM.COM) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  127. # [11:08] * tndH_ is now known as tndH
  128. # [11:10] <Hixie> on another note, what's the opposite of paged? as in, a pdf file can be paged, but a png file is...?
  129. # [11:10] <wilhelm> Continuous.
  130. # [11:11] <wilhelm> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/media.html#media-groups
  131. # [11:11] <Hixie> i don't think people would understand the concept of a "continuous image" being a png as opposed to a multipage pdf
  132. # [11:12] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  133. # [11:19] <Hixie> oops, didn't mark the last checking as affecting validators. oh well.
  134. # [11:19] * Quits: hendry (n=hendry@nox.vm.bytemark.co.uk) ("leaving")
  135. # [11:20] * Joins: hendry (n=hendry@nox.vm.bytemark.co.uk)
  136. # [11:26] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  137. # [11:29] <zcorpan> does firefox still have the dom inspector? i thought it was gone as of version 3
  138. # [11:29] <Hixie> isn't it an optional extension?
  139. # [11:29] <zcorpan> it used to be an option in the installation
  140. # [11:30] <zcorpan> dunno if it's still available as an extension
  141. # [11:32] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-5a853960c5e39435) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  142. # [11:33] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-83e6ac02dc425354)
  143. # [11:36] <jgraham> zcorpan: It's an extension now https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/6622
  144. # [11:37] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  145. # [11:37] <hendry> isn't firebug good enough for inspecting the dom?
  146. # [11:39] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  147. # [11:49] <Hixie> firebug is much better
  148. # [12:00] <hsivonen> sigh. it appears that replying to the SVG-in-HTML email is going to result in some long emails.
  149. # [12:15] <Philip`> hsivonen: My method was downloading Wikipedia's image database SQL dump, grepping it for strings that looked like "foo.svg" (because MySQL refused to load the dump, so I had to use other tools), downloading some number of them, and then grepping for certain strings to guess what program each was made with
  150. # [12:15] <hsivonen> Philip`: where do I get the MySQL dump?
  151. # [12:20] <Lachy> hsivonen, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download
  152. # [12:22] <hsivonen> Lachy: thanks. which dump should I get from http://download.wikimedia.org/commonswiki/20080615/
  153. # [12:24] <Lachy> I don't know
  154. # [12:26] * Hixie tries to get Kristof to stop top-posting
  155. # [12:34] <Hixie> so who are the big svg tool developers these days?
  156. # [12:35] <hendry> inkscape
  157. # [12:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: what shepazu said about prefixes and Inkscape and Illustrator is true but highly misleading (I'm writing a reply)
  158. # [12:36] <Hixie> heh, that was the next e-mail i was about to start on, glad you're doing it instead :-)
  159. # [12:37] <Hixie> zcorpan: am i supposed to be expecting something about an rss plugin or something for the forums?
  160. # [12:44] * Joins: rgl (n=rgl@bl8-139-218.dsl.telepac.pt)
  161. # [12:44] * rgl waves
  162. # [12:44] <zcorpan> Hixie: maybe, at least one person has talked about some plugin and asked if we want it
  163. # [12:45] <zcorpan> Hixie: right now there doesn't really seem to be a need but i guess it could be nice to have
  164. # [12:48] <Hixie> zcorpan: what should i do? install it, or tell him that we don't want to add more code to this already quite overworked server?
  165. # [12:49] <zcorpan> Hixie: tell him that we don't need it right now
  166. # [12:50] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-83e6ac02dc425354)
  167. # [12:50] <Hixie> ok
  168. # [12:54] * Joins: mcarter (n=mcarter@69.60.117.172)
  169. # [13:02] <hsivonen> A friend from the XML trenches who wishes to remain anonymous shared a bug involving a supposedly no-op redeclaration of a prefix: http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6475032
  170. # [13:05] <hsivonen> perhaps we should start a WHATWG wiki page pointing to bugs caused by Namespaces
  171. # [13:06] <Hixie> go for it
  172. # [13:18] <hsivonen> created http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Namespace_confusion
  173. # [13:24] <Lachy> hah, even though PTW claimed Hixie was unfit to be the editor, he's not willing to pursue the issue. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0360.html
  174. # [13:25] <gsnedders> Hixie: The encoding detection?
  175. # [13:25] <gsnedders> Hixie: Sorry, the character set, even
  176. # [13:26] <gsnedders> Hixie: I've been shipping character set detection since Jan :P
  177. # [13:27] <Hixie> i think it was content type sniffing, not encoding sniffing
  178. # [13:27] <gsnedders> Hixie: Yeah, I meant to say content type. I only just got up :)
  179. # [13:27] <gsnedders> s/character set/content type/g
  180. # [13:27] <gsnedders> That's what I really meant.
  181. # [13:29] <Hixie> ah ok
  182. # [13:30] <Hixie> so... what's gonna break if i say <a> is flow content with a transparent content model?
  183. # [13:31] <gsnedders> A lot, I expect :)
  184. # [13:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: why would you say that?
  185. # [13:32] <Hixie> to satisfy the use cases of the people who want global href=""
  186. # [13:32] <Hixie> some of them, at least
  187. # [13:32] <Hixie> hm, apparently handling of <a><p> would break
  188. # [13:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: btw, to me the ability to send parameters to SVG in <object> without breaking HTTP caches seems like a legitimate feature
  189. # [13:32] <Hixie> it seems like a legitimate, low-priority feature, yes
  190. # [13:32] <Hixie> i have bigger fish to fry
  191. # [13:33] <gsnedders> haha — "while I'm thinking about the subject in the shower."
  192. # [13:33] <gsnedders> Oh Hixie…
  193. # [13:33] <Hixie> hsivonen: like getting the 600 pages of the spec we have already written, implemented
  194. # [13:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: I expect you mean s/we/I/ :-)
  195. # [13:34] <Hixie> hey i might be the one doing the typing but this spec would be a whole heck of a lot crapper if it weren't for y'all helping me
  196. # [13:35] <Hixie> just look at the acknowledgements section, and consider that i only ever add people if they say something that causes the spec to change
  197. # [13:35] <hsivonen> true
  198. # [13:36] <gsnedders> Hixie: That's be an easier section to look at if less people helped :)
  199. # [13:39] <hsivonen> does the connection limit apply per host name or per IP address?
  200. # [13:41] <Philip`> hsivonen: I think I used enwiki-latest-imagelinks.sql.gz (though it might have been enwiki-latest-image.sql.gz), from Wikipedia rather than Commons
  201. # [13:45] <hsivonen> hmm. http://download.wikimedia.org/commonswiki/20080615/commonswiki-20080615-image.sql.gz looks interesting
  202. # [13:45] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok
  203. # [13:51] * hsivonen goes back to writing an XML serializer and cursing namespaces
  204. # [14:00] * Joins: wakaba (n=w@250.137.148.210.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  205. # [14:12] * Joins: wakaba__ (n=w@77.165.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  206. # [14:15] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p3216-ipbf5106marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  207. # [14:18] * Quits: wakaba_ (n=w@60.163.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  208. # [14:31] * Quits: wakaba (n=w@250.137.148.210.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  209. # [14:32] <takkaria> Philip`: ping
  210. # [14:40] <krijnh> Hixie: is the <a> thing only problematic for unclosed <p>'s ?
  211. # [14:44] <takkaria> it annoys me that out of 37 tokeniser states, 12 are for handling doctypes. it seems disproportionate, somehow
  212. # [14:52] <zcorpan> we could just require </p> if the parent is "a"
  213. # [14:52] <zcorpan> the optional end tag rules are insanely complicated anyways ;)
  214. # [14:53] <Philip`> takkaria: Pung
  215. # [14:53] <krijnh> zcorpan: yeah, would that be possible?
  216. # [14:53] <krijnh> Still doesn't make a <tr> 'clickable' though
  217. # [14:54] <hsivonen> takkaria: the most complexity in an XML parser goes into handling not only doctypes but DTDs!
  218. # [14:54] <zcorpan> krijnh: sure it would. and yep
  219. # [14:55] <zcorpan> i think we should go ahead and allow blocks in <a> :)
  220. # [14:55] <zcorpan> maybe that'd put some pressure on firefox to fix their parser, too
  221. # [14:56] <krijnh> So how much do we need to pay Hixie for this? :)
  222. # [14:56] <krijnh> Or would that break current pages?
  223. # [14:56] <takkaria> Philip`: I was going to ask you if you could get statistics on what % of tag tokens emitted by the tokeniser have at least one character in the tag name or attribute name(s) lowercased, but I have a feeling it might be a bit of a tall order. :)
  224. # [14:59] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-fa55642856b2fc48)
  225. # [14:59] <Philip`> takkaria: Do you mean how many characters are uppercase in the source and hence have to be lowercased by the tokeniser?
  226. # [14:59] <takkaria> yeah, that :)
  227. # [15:00] <Philip`> Sounds like it probably shouldn't be too hard to hack something like that into the validator.nu tokeniser
  228. # [15:01] <Philip`> although I guess it wouldn't be trivial since I'm not sure how to feed the statistics back to the outside code
  229. # [15:01] <Philip`> (particularly in a threadsafe way)
  230. # [15:02] <Philip`> so I probably don't quite have time to do something like that now, although if e.g. you modified the code to make it report that data then I could run it fairly easily :-)
  231. # [15:03] <takkaria> I may look into that, or I may try and get some kind of statistics thing hooked up to hubbub
  232. # [15:04] * takkaria doesn't know Java, so hacking the v.nu tokeniser would be troublesome
  233. # [15:04] <Philip`> Java is easy - it's just C with objects and without pointers :-)
  234. # [15:07] <Philip`> If you want to collect statistics yourself, it's fairly easy to just download a few thousand pages given some list of URLs, and then pass them all through some processing program, and write a script to summarise the output
  235. # [15:08] <takkaria> yeah, it seems like a reasonable thing to do
  236. # [15:08] <Philip`> (The mean page size I saw was something like 30KB, so it doesn't take long to download lots, assuming you do enough in parallel)
  237. # [15:09] <takkaria> I need to get a corpus of pages anyway for speed tests and test coverage
  238. # [15:10] <takkaria> so that's a good idea, really
  239. # [15:22] <hsivonen> Philip`: do you have a catalog of evil input that breaks naïve XML output?
  240. # [15:27] <Philip`> hsivonen: No - I've only ever needed to know %00 and %ef%bf%bf, since in all cases that's sufficient ;-)
  241. # [15:27] <Philip`> Oh, and sometimes %0c
  242. # [15:28] <Philip`> But that's about all, I think
  243. # [15:28] <hsivonen> ok. thanks
  244. # [15:31] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  245. # [15:31] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.135.15)
  246. # [15:32] * Joins: evileast (i=evileast@122.157.112.127)
  247. # [15:45] <krijnh> http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/07/23/any-element-linking-demo/#comment-396361 :)
  248. # [15:49] <zcorpan> perhaps HTMLElement should have a links collection so you can do <tr onclick="location = links[0]"> instead of getElementsByTagName/querySelector
  249. # [15:59] <zcorpan> Philip`: you forgot a ? in <xml:namespace prefix=v>
  250. # [15:59] <Philip`> zcorpan: No I didn't :-)
  251. # [16:00] <Philip`> I copied from http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb250524.aspx and it seems to work without a ?
  252. # [16:03] <Philip`> (Well, I did actually forget about the ?, but at least I remembered that I was forgetting something like that, hence mentioning "maybe some other incantations" to cover my failings :-) )
  253. # [16:04] * Joins: csarven (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca)
  254. # [16:16] * Quits: mcarter (n=mcarter@69.60.117.172) (Remote closed the connection)
  255. # [16:22] <zcorpan> Philip`: oh, i thought only <?xml:namespace... worked
  256. # [16:22] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip110.unival.com)
  257. # [16:23] <gsnedders> Less than a week till my exam results :\
  258. # [16:23] <Philip`> zcorpan: It's dangerous to make such assumptions about how IE works :-)
  259. # [16:25] <zcorpan> Philip`: does <body prefix=v> work?
  260. # [16:26] <Philip`> zcorpan: No
  261. # [16:26] <Philip`> (nor does <body xmlns:v>)
  262. # [16:26] <zcorpan> <html prefix=y> doesn't seem to work either
  263. # [16:28] <gsnedders> Philip`: <html gsneddersisawesome>?
  264. # [16:28] <gsnedders> Philip`: (you said not to make such assumptions! :P)
  265. # [16:29] <Philip`> Ah, you can use <?import namespace="v" implementation="#default#VML">
  266. # [16:29] <Philip`> instead of the CSS behavior thing
  267. # [16:30] <zcorpan> yeah
  268. # [16:30] <zcorpan> and/or some <object> thing in head
  269. # [16:30] <zcorpan> i think
  270. # [16:30] <zcorpan> well at least to enable asv
  271. # [16:31] <zcorpan> <object id=foo classid=...></object><?import namespace=svg implementation=#foo> or so
  272. # [16:33] <Philip`> I guess that's to make it load the plugin that will hook into that namespace behaviour or something
  273. # [16:34] * Joins: svl (n=me@ppp-58-10-81-164.revip2.asianet.co.th)
  274. # [16:34] <zcorpan> yeah
  275. # [16:34] <zcorpan> for mathplayer2 you can use some specific doctype instead and/or application/xhtml+xml
  276. # [16:35] <zcorpan> though that works without prefixes
  277. # [16:36] <zcorpan> so i'm not sure what happens there
  278. # [16:36] <zcorpan> perhaps it does the document.createElement('math') thing
  279. # [16:36] * Parts: evileast (i=evileast@122.157.112.127)
  280. # [16:39] * Joins: scotfl (n=scotfl@S0106001b114f914a.ss.shawcable.net)
  281. # [16:40] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  282. # [16:54] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("The computer fell asleep")
  283. # [17:05] * gsnedders tries to validate HTML 5
  284. # [17:05] * gsnedders begs hsivonen for forgiveness ;P
  285. # [17:06] <gsnedders> yay!
  286. # [17:06] <gsnedders> It's valid!
  287. # [17:06] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Do you check if URIs are valid?
  288. # [17:09] * Quits: svl (n=me@ppp-58-10-81-164.revip2.asianet.co.th) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  289. # [17:13] <gDashiva> gsnedders: We could just make Hixie add "This document is valid HTML5" to one of the normative sections, and you wouldn't have to worry ever again ;)
  290. # [17:13] <gsnedders> gDashiva: :)
  291. # [17:14] <gsnedders> gDashiva: But it is always conforming, or only the copy that Hixie publishes (i.e., if I run it through my spec-gen, is it still valid?)?
  292. # [17:16] <Philip`> gDashiva: That seems insufficiently verbose
  293. # [17:16] <Philip`> Maybe "An HTML 5 document is a conforming document if it either follows all the conformance requirements described in this specification, or if it is this specification"
  294. # [17:17] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-dfade66d2d8b5f3a)
  295. # [17:18] <Lachy> Philip`, how does a validator correctly identify a document as being the spec?
  296. # [17:19] <Philip`> Lachy: It could hardcode the MD5 of the spec
  297. # [17:20] <gsnedders> Philip`: If it goes through my spec-gen, it will have a different MD5, and yet will still be the spec
  298. # [17:20] <gsnedders> Philip`: Also, what if Hixie updates the spec?
  299. # [17:20] <Philip`> gsnedders: It could hardcode the MD5 of all versions of the spec
  300. # [17:20] <gsnedders> Philip`: Including all possible future versions of the spec (i.e., every possible md5 hash)?
  301. # [17:20] <Philip`> gsnedders: The validator would have to be updated, which is what already has to happen for many spec changes
  302. # [17:21] <gDashiva> Would it be the w3c or whatwg version that was valid?
  303. # [17:21] <Lachy> does the conformance criteria implictly apply to all prior versions of the spec too, even though they are obsolete?
  304. # [17:23] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  305. # [17:27] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-fa55642856b2fc48) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  306. # [17:27] <gsnedders> http://bugs.gsnedders.com/issues/show/15 — anyone agree with that?
  307. # [17:28] <Lachy> gsnedders, it asks me to log in
  308. # [17:28] * Quits: webben_ (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-dfade66d2d8b5f3a)
  309. # [17:28] <gDashiva> No, it should be bu.gsnedders.com
  310. # [17:28] <gsnedders> Lachy: I disagree with that.
  311. # [17:28] <gsnedders> :P
  312. # [17:28] <gDashiva> I also get the login screen
  313. # [17:28] <gsnedders> and now?
  314. # [17:28] <gsnedders> 500 :\
  315. # [17:28] <Philip`> Internal Error
  316. # [17:28] <gDashiva> It redirected me to login.php for the login screen, so reloading doesn't fix it!
  317. # [17:28] <Lachy> same
  318. # [17:29] <gsnedders> Internal error isn't good.
  319. # [17:29] <Philip`> Better than an external error
  320. # [17:29] <gDashiva> It maybe depends on login credentials or something
  321. # [17:30] <gsnedders> gDashiva: it shouldn't :P
  322. # [17:30] <gsnedders> Basically, should whitespace have meaning within pre for non-visual UAs?
  323. # [17:30] <gDashiva> gsnedders: And it shouldn't 500 either :P
  324. # [17:32] <Philip`> gsnedders: Yes, because otherwise you wouldn't be able to teach blind programmers Python
  325. # [17:32] <gsnedders> Philip`: so <pre><dfn> foo bar </dfn></pre> <span>foo bar</span> should be xref'd how? :P
  326. # [17:33] <gsnedders> Should it not be as the span doesn't start with whitespace?
  327. # [17:33] <gDashiva> I would warn/error on non-trimmed dfn contents
  328. # [17:34] * Joins: excrypf (n=nogah@58.187.94.15)
  329. # [17:34] <Philip`> gsnedders: That's a totally unrelated question :-p
  330. # [17:34] <gsnedders> Philip`: Totally? It's completely related to the meaning of whitespace in pre! :P
  331. # [17:35] <gDashiva> I think gsnedders is saying his script is a non-visual UA
  332. # [17:35] <gsnedders> s/non-visual UA/not a visual UA/g
  333. # [17:35] <gsnedders> how about that?
  334. # [17:36] <gsnedders> well, it is a UA
  335. # [17:36] <gsnedders> and non visual
  336. # [17:36] <gsnedders> and no scripting support :)
  337. # [17:37] <gDashiva> Lies, it supports arbitrary script execution through vulnerabilities
  338. # [17:37] <gsnedders> gDashiva: Does it, though? :P
  339. # [17:37] <Philip`> gsnedders: Your UA doesn't know or care about meaning - it's just doing fuzzy string matching, and your second question was about how much fuzziness you want
  340. # [17:38] <gsnedders> the fuzziness should be based on the meaning :)
  341. # [17:38] <gDashiva> I repeat my suggestion
  342. # [17:38] <gDashiva> It avoids having to make a decision by putting the onus on the author
  343. # [17:41] <Philip`> If you cared much about meaning, you'd recognise that <dfn>foo bar</dfn> and <span>foo bars</span> are referring to the same concept, just with some modifications to cope with grammar, and automatically link those together
  344. # [17:43] <gDashiva> Should he also recognize Attorneys General as referring to the singular form? :)
  345. # [17:43] <gsnedders> Philip`: Peh. That means using a natural language parser (yuk)
  346. # [17:43] <Philip`> gDashiva: Of course
  347. # [17:44] <Philip`> And it has to be i18nised so it'll cope with all natural languages that people will translate specs into
  348. # [17:44] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  349. # [17:49] <gsnedders> Philip`: So you think I should do nothing? :P
  350. # [17:59] <Philip`> gsnedders: I never suggested such a thing
  351. # [17:59] <gsnedders> Philip`: What do you believe my behaviour should be when the instance or the dfn is in a pre?
  352. # [18:00] <Philip`> gsnedders: I'm happy to leave that decision up to you
  353. # [18:00] <gsnedders> ergh.
  354. # [18:00] <gsnedders> people are so helpful :)
  355. # [18:01] <gsnedders> Philip`: There again, did I really expect you to make a decision?
  356. # [18:01] <gsnedders> But only I can answer that.
  357. # [18:01] <Philip`> gsnedders: Not all people
  358. # [18:01] <Philip`> as is easily demonstrated
  359. # [18:01] * Joins: jmb^ (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk)
  360. # [18:12] * Quits: jmb (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  361. # [18:13] * jmb^ is now known as jmb
  362. # [18:14] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  363. # [18:31] * Quits: excrypf (n=nogah@58.187.94.15) ("Leaving.")
  364. # [18:33] * Joins: excrypf (n=nogah@58.187.94.15)
  365. # [18:45] * Quits: csarven (i=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  366. # [18:50] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-0ef3e0eeba4a5dbb)
  367. # [18:52] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  368. # [18:53] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p3216-ipbf5106marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  369. # [18:53] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  370. # [18:53] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-0ef3e0eeba4a5dbb) (Client Quit)
  371. # [19:07] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Lb545.l.pppool.de)
  372. # [19:14] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  373. # [19:15] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  374. # [19:16] * Quits: psa (n=yomode@71.93.19.66) (Remote closed the connection)
  375. # [19:19] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-49787dda2f4e3a3a)
  376. # [19:26] * Quits: rgl (n=rgl@bl8-139-218.dsl.telepac.pt) ("Leaving")
  377. # [19:30] * Quits: weinig|snooze (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  378. # [19:32] <takkaria> urgh, people should stop emailing whatwg@lists.whatwg.org and whatwg@whatwg.org
  379. # [19:35] * Joins: psa (n=yomode@71.93.19.66)
  380. # [19:36] * Quits: psa (n=yomode@71.93.19.66) (Client Quit)
  381. # [19:37] * Joins: psa (n=yomode@71.93.19.66)
  382. # [19:41] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-24-5-43-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  383. # [19:41] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-7ca73d6b28aa975b)
  384. # [19:42] * Joins: svl (n=me@ppp-58-10-81-164.revip2.asianet.co.th)
  385. # [19:51] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  386. # [19:51] * Joins: epeus (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-0449a929218d805f)
  387. # [19:53] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-9f705dfb902f1814)
  388. # [19:55] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-7ca73d6b28aa975b) (Nick collision from services.)
  389. # [19:56] * epeus is now known as KevinMarks
  390. # [19:57] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-0449a929218d805f) ("The computer fell asleep")
  391. # [20:03] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-98a52141d88eeb28)
  392. # [20:05] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  393. # [20:09] <gsnedders> http://flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/2716775325/ — that _so_ isn't distorted
  394. # [20:11] * Joins: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  395. # [20:15] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  396. # [20:16] * Quits: svl (n=me@ppp-58-10-81-164.revip2.asianet.co.th) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  397. # [20:17] <zcorpan> who wants to join the party? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jul/0034.html
  398. # [20:17] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  399. # [20:20] <zcorpan> "FWIW, the XHTML2 Working Group "mints" new FPIs all the time. I am saddened to learn that this is a problem for browser vendors."
  400. # [20:22] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  401. # [20:22] * Quits: excrypf (n=nogah@58.187.94.15) ("Leaving.")
  402. # [20:27] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  403. # [20:27] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  404. # [20:30] * KevinMarks is listening to Vicki talk about HTML5 in Safari 4
  405. # [20:30] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.214.115)
  406. # [20:33] <hsivonen> gsnedders: Validator.nu check the generic IRI syntax and scheme-specific syntax for certain schemes. Unregistered schemes are allowes. The spec's URL stuff isn't in yet. It'll require extensions to the RELAX NG engine to carry the encoding metadatum around
  407. # [20:34] <gsnedders> hsivonen: OK, thanks
  408. # [20:34] <Philip`> gsnedders: http://flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/2716769953/ - s/Cathrine's/Catharine's/
  409. # [20:34] <hsivonen> gsnedders: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/html5-datatypes/#iri
  410. # [20:34] <gsnedders> Philip`: fixed
  411. # [20:34] <Philip`> gsnedders: http://flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/2716765339/ - s/Queen's/Queens'/
  412. # [20:35] <gsnedders> Philip`: I was guessing that was after some queen who founded it
  413. # [20:35] <Philip`> gsnedders: http://www.quns.cam.ac.uk/queens/Misc/apostrophe.html
  414. # [20:35] <gsnedders> heh.
  415. # [20:35] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks for poiting out that IE isn't drinking the XML kool-aid
  416. # [20:36] <gsnedders> "The spelling changed from Queen's to Queens' in the calendar of 1831." — 200 years ago I'd have been right!
  417. # [20:36] <Philip`> hsivonen: IE is when you use <xml>, though
  418. # [20:36] <Philip`> gsnedders: 200 years ago, Flickr didn't exist, so the point would be irrelevant
  419. # [20:36] <gsnedders> Philip`: shhh
  420. # [20:36] <gsnedders> :P
  421. # [20:38] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.104.199)
  422. # [20:38] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-9f705dfb902f1814) (Remote closed the connection)
  423. # [20:39] <hsivonen> gsnedders: your bug tracker shows me an internal error
  424. # [20:39] * Joins: othermaciej__ (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-2c1e735469c7fae5)
  425. # [20:39] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-1daa8876ea1140c0)
  426. # [20:40] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.214.115) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  427. # [20:43] * Quits: othermaciej__ (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-2c1e735469c7fae5) (Client Quit)
  428. # [20:44] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Lb545.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  429. # [20:44] <KevinMarks> 2 queens, like 2 kings
  430. # [20:45] <KevinMarks> did you go to Sidney?
  431. # [20:45] <Philip`> What two kings?
  432. # [20:46] <KevinMarks> Henry VI and VII
  433. # [20:48] <Philip`> But King's College is only named after Henry VI
  434. # [20:48] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  435. # [20:50] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("Leaving")
  436. # [20:51] <KevinMarks> oh, right
  437. # [20:53] <Philip`> It's best to never expect any kind of consistency :-)
  438. # [20:55] * Quits: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.104.199) (Connection timed out)
  439. # [21:02] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-98a52141d88eeb28) ("The computer fell asleep")
  440. # [21:04] <gsnedders> Esp. in Cambridge :)
  441. # [21:04] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Yeah, I know :(
  442. # [21:04] <gsnedders> hsivonen: The alternative is a login screen.
  443. # [21:05] <gsnedders> Something is broken.
  444. # [21:10] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Lb545.l.pppool.de)
  445. # [21:13] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote closed the connection)
  446. # [21:48] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.199)
  447. # [21:59] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  448. # [22:01] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.199)
  449. # [22:05] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Lb545.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  450. # [22:05] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-1daa8876ea1140c0) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  451. # [22:06] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.199)
  452. # [22:08] * Joins: excrypf (n=nogah@58.187.88.100)
  453. # [22:22] <hsivonen> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/MediaSpecifcElements
  454. # [22:23] <Hixie> what about it?
  455. # [22:23] <hsivonen> looks like a draft about adding stuff to HTML5
  456. # [22:24] <Hixie> i hope they have fun with that
  457. # [22:44] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  458. # [22:46] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-227c114aea1bc373)
  459. # [22:48] * Parts: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.135.15) ("Konversation terminated!")
  460. # [22:49] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-d263d608e9b3f72a)
  461. # [23:00] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.245)
  462. # [23:07] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.199)
  463. # [23:09] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-031bdad11b1794f3)
  464. # [23:11] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-227c114aea1bc373)
  465. # [23:14] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.199)
  466. # [23:33] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@conference/mozilla-summit/x-d7c7a2b152b982bc)
  467. # [23:36] * Parts: aaronlev (n=chatzill@conference/mozilla-summit/x-d7c7a2b152b982bc)
  468. # [23:39] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.255.104.199)
  469. # [23:42] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-640ca5f422658b39)
  470. # [23:42] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: You around?
  471. # [23:42] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-94ec67e045ee742c)
  472. # [23:44] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: If not, can you just tell me sometime whether http://stuff.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/html5.html has sane enough indenting of the TOC for your liking (seeming you're the only person apart from me who cares if it is, or at least who has voiced an opinion)?
  473. # [23:47] <takkaria> that looks sane to me
  474. # [23:47] <gsnedders> (I know the end tags are a bit wacky, but being nice with them would result in even crazier code than that needs)
  475. # [23:51] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@modemcable144.140-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  476. # [23:56] * Quits: excrypf (n=nogah@58.187.88.100) ("Leaving.")
  477. # Session Close: Thu Jul 31 00:00:01 2008

The end :)