/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-08-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 01 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:13] * aroben|away is now known as aroben
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  5. # [00:22] * Hixie adds a ten-day moving average to http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html for no apparently reason
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  9. # [00:31] * gsnedders doesn't really want to write, "normally, the normal string substitutions are…"
  10. # [00:36] * gsnedders wonders how to avoid [DATE] being parsed
  11. # [00:36] <gsnedders> This is making it rather hard to document
  12. # [00:37] <gsnedders> Hixie: Is <!----> the shortest conforming comment?
  13. # [00:38] <Hixie> i believe so
  14. # [00:38] <gsnedders> Because although the text can't start with U+002D, the text is optional?
  15. # [00:39] <Hixie> right
  16. # [00:39] <Hixie> well
  17. # [00:39] <Hixie> iirc, the text isn't optional, but it can be the empty string
  18. # [00:39] <Hixie> which is the same thing!
  19. # [00:40] <gsnedders> Hixie: text is may
  20. # [00:40] <gsnedders> Hixie: Thus it isn't required
  21. # [00:42] <Hixie> ah ok
  22. # [00:42] <Hixie> well there you go then
  23. # [00:42] <gsnedders> (string subs must be contained within a single text node, thus having a comment that is empty stops it from being repalced)
  24. # [00:42] <gsnedders> *replaced
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  29. # [01:17] <Hixie> maybe i should spend more time fixing the spec and less time responding to sam and insulting the tag.
  30. # [01:18] <hober> I must have missed the TAG insult email
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  32. # [01:18] <Hixie> just sent it
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  35. # [01:25] * gsnedders sighs
  36. # [01:25] <gsnedders> Is it silly the sub. docs is longer than xref and TOC/numbering docs put together?
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  44. # [01:50] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html now shows labels in browsers that support the html5 fillText() api
  45. # [01:52] <takkaria> damn, I have to go and download one now...
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  55. # [02:24] * gsnedders realises he's completely screwed up 1.0b1 spec-gen docs by having no external links
  56. # [02:24] <gsnedders> Nevertheless, go get now!
  57. # [02:25] <gsnedders> Also, if there's anyone who should be in the ack but isn't, do email me
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  59. # [02:26] <gsnedders> http://hg.gsnedders.com/hgwebdir.cgi/spec-gen/rev/fab6bfa129aa (see the bzip/zip/gz links to download)
  60. # [02:26] <gsnedders> Oh dear.
  61. # [02:26] <gsnedders> The docs say 1.0b1-dev to
  62. # [02:26] <gsnedders> *too
  63. # [02:27] <gsnedders> I really am too tired :P
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  72. # [02:52] <Hixie> sam is rich
  73. # [02:52] <Hixie> "please don't dismiss me" he says, after not replying to almost any of the questions i ask him
  74. # [02:53] <Hixie> like, i write an e-mail "here's how you could help us move forward: X. So far you haven't helped us move forward."
  75. # [02:53] <Hixie> and he replies "You say I haven't helped you move forward! Whine whine whine."
  76. # [02:53] <takkaria> I think that thread is a waste of your time, fwiw, and you should probably stop replying
  77. # [02:53] <Hixie> i'm gonna see if he replies to the questions i asked
  78. # [02:53] <Hixie> if he does, we could make progress
  79. # [02:54] <Hixie> if he doesn't, i'll add him to my filter that labels e-mails as being "AAA IMPORTANT/CRITICAL"
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  81. # [03:01] <takkaria> Hixie, I assume you saw the posts about getting WF2 integrated? have you plans to do that soon now that we seem to have some consensus on it?
  82. # [03:02] <Hixie> yeah gonna do that after we publish next month
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  85. # [03:03] <takkaria> awesome. :)
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  102. # [04:13] <kangax> is it possible to modify image opacity (after it was rendered on canvas)?
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  143. # [09:43] <hsivonen> apparently, browsers don't treat a bogus internal encoding decl after a BOM as an error in XML: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Bahia_Municip_Itapicuru.svg
  144. # [09:44] <hsivonen> nzkoz: you were looking for me?
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  153. # [10:11] <hsivonen> I had dinner with friends who write software.
  154. # [10:12] <hsivonen> it seems to me that when people who have had to deal with Namespaces in XML can talk freely, they never have anecdotes about how Namespaces have helped them
  155. # [10:12] <hsivonen> instead, they have negative comments
  156. # [10:13] <hsivonen> OTOH, devil's advocate scenarios where Namespaces could help come from people who don't have to deal with Namespaces as part of their work
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  160. # [10:23] <othermaciej> Namespaces are an example of the Fundamental Software Engineering Error
  161. # [10:23] <othermaciej> which is that something too terrible to actually use can be fixed by adding a level of indirection
  162. # [10:24] <othermaciej> sometimes that is true but software engineers try to do it even when it clearly is not
  163. # [10:31] <hsivonen> othermaciej: do you mean that URI-based extensibility is the too terrible thing in this case?
  164. # [10:31] <othermaciej> using URIs as a namespace identifier for tags in a markup language
  165. # [10:31] <othermaciej> is the terrible thing
  166. # [10:32] <othermaciej> if you had to mention the URI on every tag it would be clearly unusable
  167. # [10:32] <othermaciej> but since URIs are *obviously* the one true form of unique identifier, you add a level of indirection instead of rethinking why you are using them
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  169. # [10:33] <othermaciej> or why URIs that are not meant to be dereferenced should start with http: and have a hostname
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  174. # [10:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: if Google Translate isn't observing <code> now, why would it observe some other "do not translate" marker?
  175. # [10:49] <hsivonen> I wonder if Web authors would bother to annotate their stuff for machine translation
  176. # [10:50] <Philip`> If sometimes there are <code>s it ought to translate, it could just default to not translating and have some popup UI when you move the mouse over that text to offer to translate it
  177. # [10:54] <Hixie> hsivonen: good question
  178. # [10:55] <Hixie> hsivonen: though it wouldn't help with the wikipedia example, since that's not marked up right
  179. # [11:01] * hsivonen expects a new round of Distributed Extensibility around ITS
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  184. # [11:23] <hsivonen> In case anyone is wondering about Validator.nu weirdness, the DNS server that Validator.nu use for resolving addresses for outgoing connections is being really slow to respond today
  185. # [11:23] <Hixie> is it being attacked?
  186. # [11:23] <Hixie> i hear there are attacks going on now
  187. # [11:23] <hsivonen> I don't know.
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  189. # [11:27] <virtuelv> are the mozilla devs still trapped in Whistler?
  190. # [11:27] <virtuelv> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=448604
  191. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I just updated my local validator.nu and now getting "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: org/mortbay/jetty/Connector" error
  192. # [11:30] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: did you run build.py with target 'all' or 'dldeps'?
  193. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> with "run"
  194. # [11:30] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: try dldeps first and then run again
  195. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> k
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  197. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> OK, I see it's downloading the new dependencies now
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  199. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, the dldeps can sometimes be a PITA because certain downloads often fail with "Connection reset by peer" messages, and the download doesn't retry, so I have to go back and retry it manually
  200. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> happening now with the http://download.icu-project.org/files/icu4j/4.0/icu4j-4_0.jar download
  201. # [11:36] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah, I'm experiencing problems with DNS right now. It has worked until now, so there hasn't been a need to make it retry before...
  202. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> OK
  203. # [11:36] <hsivonen> but yeah, I should probably make it retry
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  206. # [11:41] <Hixie> MikeSmith: the subversion link is so that people can use a svn client to get the complete log, blame, diffs, etc (it's not supposed to be accessed from a browser)
  207. # [11:42] <Hixie> MikeSmith: would it make sense to expose it as a non-hyperlinked url, maybe?
  208. # [11:42] <Hixie> MikeSmith: (other changes look fine)
  209. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> great
  210. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, I think a non-hyperlinked "svn checkout http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/" would be good
  211. # [11:43] <Hixie> cool, will do that then
  212. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> thanks
  213. # [11:46] <Philip`> 'svn blame' isn't very useful, since it blames Hixie for everything
  214. # [11:46] <gDashiva> You mean it isn't all his fault?
  215. # [11:46] <Hixie> i use it a lot to track which version number a line was last edited in
  216. # [11:47] <Philip`> gDashiva: It is, but we know that already
  217. # [11:47] <hsivonen> Philip`: I deployed a new XML serializer. Feel free to try to break it.
  218. # [11:48] <Philip`> hsivonen: I might have a look when I have fewer urgent things to work on :-)
  219. # [11:49] <Hixie> MikeSmith: "choice of means" kind of sounds kooky to me so i'm changing that paragraph
  220. # [11:50] <Hixie> now it just reads: <p>There are various ways to follow the change history for the specification:</p>
  221. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, sounded funny to me too :) I just couldn't think of better wording..
  222. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> your revision sounds great to me
  223. # [11:53] <Hixie> i also changed your <dd><ul><li> construct to just a list of <dd>s, since <dl>s can have multiple <dd>s per <dt>s
  224. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> yeah, that's cleaner
  225. # [11:55] <Hixie> hey there's no link to the issues list either
  226. # [11:55] <Hixie> should we add taht?
  227. # [11:55] <Hixie> i guess i forgot to add it when i added it to the whatwg copy when daniel asked
  228. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, seems like that would definitely be good to have too
  229. # [11:59] <Hixie> ok here's what i have so far: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/.w3c/Overview.html
  230. # [12:00] * MikeSmith looks now
  231. # [12:00] * Hixie isn't sure he likes the text of the "HTML 5 bug/issue-tracking service" link but doesn't have a better suggestion
  232. # [12:00] <Hixie> too many capitals, numbers, and types of punctuation in short successon
  233. # [12:00] <Hixie> succession
  234. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, that "HTML 5 bug/issue-tracking service" wording definitely klunky
  235. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> anyway, revised SOTD overall looks great
  236. # [12:02] <Hixie> how about just "our public bug tracker"?
  237. # [12:02] <Hixie> or database
  238. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> "public bug database" sound best, i think
  239. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> "submit them to our public bug database"
  240. # [12:04] <Hixie> ok: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/.w3c/Overview.html
  241. # [12:04] <Hixie> oh you think s/using/to/? i can do that too if you want
  242. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> beautiful
  243. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> nah, "using" is fine
  244. # [12:05] <Hixie> oh i should probably update the link to the bug list to not be the list that i use but hte list that includes all the bugs i am hiding from myself too!
  245. # [12:05] <Hixie> e.g. the ones i reassign to you :-)
  246. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> heh, yeah
  247. # [12:06] <hsivonen> hmm. the resolf.conf on the validator.nu machine is interesting
  248. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=ALL+product:HTML+-status:RESOLVED+-status:CLOSED
  249. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> I think
  250. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> for the "bug database" link
  251. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> hmm, though I see that picks up the authoring-guide also
  252. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> anyway, some form that quicksearch feature would seem best
  253. # [12:11] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Spec%20bugs&component=Spec%20proposals&product=HTML%20WG&resolution=NEEDSINFO&resolution=LATER&resolution=REMIND&resolution=---&order=bugs.resolution%2Cbugs.priority%2C%20bugs.bug_severity
  254. # [12:12] <Hixie> checked in
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  256. # [12:47] <Lachy> wow, so Dean Edridge might be becoming an editor? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Aug/0002.html
  257. # [12:47] <Lachy> it'll be interest to see how well he manages
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  261. # [13:01] <hsivonen> hmm. Jigsaw is pretty seriously vintage Java...
  262. # [13:04] <hsivonen> Namespaces (java packages) don't solve the problem of the contents of the namespace being different in 2000 and 2008
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  264. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I have another question about the http://svn.versiondude.net/whattf/syntax/trunk/relaxng HTML5 schema
  265. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> does it actually capture the content-model constraints around phrasing prose/phrase/flow content?
  266. # [13:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it should
  267. # [13:11] <hsivonen> subject to bugs, of course
  268. # [13:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: however, exclusions are handled in Schematron
  269. # [13:12] <hsivonen> and it doesn't capture the new transparent <a> thing yet
  270. # [13:12] <MikeSmith> OK. maybe I need to look at the assertions. I haven't much yet.
  271. # [13:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do you have a test case that misvalidates?
  272. # [13:12] <MikeSmith> for a specific for example, where is the constraint that a <p> can't have a <ul> as a child?
  273. # [13:13] * hsivonen looks
  274. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: <p><ul><li>foo</li></ul></p> doesn't misvalidate, but validator.nu doesn't actually seem to get to the point of validating it
  275. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> because it seems that the parser fixes it before it gets to the validation stage
  276. # [13:14] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: in block.rnc, p.inner is defined to be ( common.inner.phrase )
  277. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: right, and common.inner.phrase = text & common.elem.phrase*
  278. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> and common.elem.phrase = common.elem.embedded
  279. # [13:15] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah, in that case, stuff happens according to the parsing algorithm before it reaches the schema layer
  280. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> and common.elem.embedded = notAllowed
  281. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: right, that's what I meant for that particular case
  282. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> the </p> gets implied
  283. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> before the <ul>
  284. # [13:16] <hsivonen> that has nothing to do with the schema
  285. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> right, I understand that
  286. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> it seems like with a conformant HTML5 parser, there are many such cases
  287. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> with one consequence being that the error messages aren't going to be very helpful
  288. # [13:17] <hsivonen> but for XHTML5, the restriction is that common.elem.prose |= ul.elem does not end up augmenting common.inner.phrase
  289. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> OK
  290. # [13:18] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: there's a pending feature request to get warnings on implied tags
  291. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> ah
  292. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> that would be great to have
  293. # [13:19] <MikeSmith> ideally I think a user should see a message saying, e.g., "the <p> element cannot contain a <ul> as a child"
  294. # [13:19] <MikeSmith> or whatever
  295. # [13:19] <MikeSmith> that makes it very explicit
  296. # [13:20] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the thing is, that omitting </p> is a legitimate way to end the <p>
  297. # [13:20] <MikeSmith> hmm, yeah, I realize that now
  298. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> god, all this stuff must make building a conformance checker a major PITA
  299. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> :)
  300. # [13:23] <hsivonen> right now, the PITA is that Jigsaw doesn't print informative diagnostics when stuff fails :-)
  301. # [13:24] <MikeSmith> I saw you had mentioned Jigsaw but I'm clueless so far about what you need it for
  302. # [13:24] <MikeSmith> what problem does it potentially solve for you?
  303. # [13:24] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: getting the W3C run an instance of Validator.nu under their preferred container
  304. # [13:25] <MikeSmith> ah
  305. # [13:25] <MikeSmith> that would definitely be really nice to have
  306. # [13:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: getting back to the HTML5 schema, am I confused, or is it the case that if you expand the content-model references out, common.inner.phrase just amounts to text & notAllowed
  307. # [13:28] <hsivonen> hmm. interesting. when the servlet-relative path is "/", Jigsaw gives it as null
  308. # [13:29] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: each phrase-level element definition augments that stub definition
  309. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> OK
  310. # [13:31] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I see now... I just need to quit being lazy and to actually read the schema
  311. # [13:42] <hsivonen> do all browsers default to submitting the form to base uri if the action attribute on the form is missing?
  312. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: do you know of any tools that are able to generate a flattened version of an rng/rnc schema with the combine=choice definitions for a pattern actually combined into a single definition?
  313. # [13:43] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm not aware of such a tool, but here's a guess
  314. # [13:43] <hsivonen> you might get that result if
  315. # [13:43] <hsivonen> you run Trang to convert the schema to RELAX NG XML syntax
  316. # [13:44] <hsivonen> and then run Kohsuke Kawaguchi's schema converter to convert the schema from RELAX NG to RELAX NG
  317. # [13:45] <hsivonen> but that's just a guess
  318. # [13:45] <hsivonen> then you could run Trang againg to compact syntax to make the result human-readable :-)
  319. # [13:45] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Trang preserves the structure of the schema
  320. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> yeah, tried trang .. doesn't do it, unfortunately -- or fortunately, depending on how you look at it. trang faithfully preserves the RNC structure in RNG output in such a way that is seems like it's actually round-trippable
  321. # [13:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Kohsuke Kawaguchi's converter builds an abstact model and reserializes it without preserving structure
  322. # [13:46] <hsivonen> but IIRC, him tool doesn't read compact syntax
  323. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> I tried Dave Tolpin's incelim and it doesn't combine them either
  324. # [13:47] <hsivonen> hence, the need to use Trang, too
  325. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
  326. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> will try Kohsuke's tool
  327. # [13:48] * MikeSmith apologizes again for not actually reading carefullywhat hsivonen wrote above
  328. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> I'll shut up now :)
  329. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> for a while at least
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  331. # [13:54] <hsivonen> w00t. I got Validator.nu to run inside Jigsaw. (without file upload support, without gzip support and without non-ASCII input support)
  332. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: congats
  333. # [13:57] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks. now I need to document what I did. :-)
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  360. # [17:26] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: any clues on getting Kohsuke's rngconv working with the HTML datatype library?
  361. # [17:26] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  362. # [17:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I'm trying to run a conversion, but I'm getting "http://whattf.org/datatype-draft" is not a recognized data type vocabulary"
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  364. # [17:37] <tantek> hsivonen, othermaciej just saw your dialog re: namespaces earlier (last night) http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080801#l-154
  365. # [17:38] <tantek> feel free to add a new section (or sections), like "implementation experience" and/or "fundamental software engineering error" to http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaces-considered-harmful
  366. # [17:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: no clue. do you have the library in classpath?
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  368. # [17:43] <hsivonen> tantek: I recently started a wiki page, too: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Namespace_confusion
  369. # [17:43] <hsivonen> not much there yet
  370. # [17:44] <tantek> still, a good collection
  371. # [17:44] <tantek> feel free to link to your page also from http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaces-considered-harmful
  372. # [17:45] <hsivonen> tantek: ok. I will. (gotta run now, though)
  373. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, I got the dist/html5-datatypes.jar subdir of my http://svn.versiondude.net/whattf/syntax/trunk/relaxng/datatype/java working directory
  374. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> it's just that one jar file, right?
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  394. # [20:16] * hober wonders if getting involved with this thread was a good idea after all
  395. # [20:31] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@m2d0f36d0.tmodns.net)
  396. # [20:43] <takkaria> it wasn't
  397. # [20:44] <takkaria> neither is the way trackback/pingback have been brought up at all
  398. # [20:50] <hober> maybe I should set a cron job to email http://xkcd.com/386/ to me every morning...
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  400. # [20:53] <takkaria> the debate on extensibility is fundamentally a religious one, I don't see how either side will ever buckle
  401. # [20:54] <takkaria> I have this suspicion that HTML5 will never become a W3C recommendation as a result of this and other permadiscussions
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  418. # [22:37] <takkaria> libxml2's APIs suck a little bit
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  424. # [23:21] <Lachy> "And authors want to add metadata. Instead of forcing it into containers that haven't been designed for it (@title, @data-*), let them do it properly." -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0023.html
  425. # [23:21] <Lachy> I don't get what other way would be considered the proper way to embed metadata, beyond the mechanisms designed for adding metadata?!
  426. # [23:23] <Lachy> if, as Julian claims, title and data-* weren't designed for adding some type of metadata, then I must be missing something.
  427. # Session Close: Sat Aug 02 00:00:00 2008

The end :)