/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-08-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Aug 04 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:05] <Lachy> still reading that, but it doesn't appear to be a major problem editing namespaces in places where prefixes really are effectively meaningless, such as within the DOM. But the big problems occur when you want to serialise it, where the prefixes suddenly become meaningful and there are conflicts
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  6. # [00:08] <Lachy> some of the problems could possibly have been mitigated if prefixes had to be declared document-wide, and had to be unique
  7. # [00:13] <Dashiva> Wouldn't that ruin the whole "put some xml inside some other xml" thing?
  8. # [00:17] <Lachy> how so?
  9. # [00:18] <Lachy> you could still declare multiple namespaces, but it would prevent silly things like this <x:foo xmlns:x="a"><x:bar xmlns:x="b"/></x:foo>
  10. # [00:18] <Dashiva> Like if you're doing a feed, you'd have to extract all the namespaces used, and solve potential conflicts
  11. # [00:18] <Lachy> yes, you would have to ensure there are no conflicts
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  13. # [00:19] <Lachy> but you get other problems, as outlined in that blog entry, when conflicts arise
  14. # [00:19] <jgraham> Hixie: Why would you want to put the caption / credit /etc. in @title rather than in a user-visible form using @figure
  15. # [00:19] <Dashiva> And while you could say it's not a supported feature, automatic renaming for conflicts would break things relying on the prefix
  16. # [00:20] <jgraham> In practice, i think that Philip`'s objection about tooltips is stronger, although given the IE behaviour with alt, not so much stronger
  17. # [00:20] <Lachy> even with namespaces as they are today, nothing should really ever rely on the prefix
  18. # [00:20] <Dashiva> Yeah, but that's very violated should
  19. # [00:21] <Philip`> jgraham: Because having a user-visibly-by-default caption/credit/etc is really ugly in cases like http://diveintomark.org/archives/2007/03/05/cc-dogs
  20. # [00:21] <Philip`> s/visibly/visible/
  21. # [00:22] <jgraham> Hixie: I think the fact that there is an <img> tag allows the UA to indicate that there is an image. Once you know that there is an image and there isn't any textual alternative the title seems like it will provide the mst information about what you are missing out on
  22. # [00:22] <Dashiva> Lachy: Certain feed readers only working with no prefix or atom: to mention one ;)
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  24. # [00:24] <jgraham> Philip`: The caption/credit on that page /is/ user visible. Even if you wanted to hide it @title wouldn't help, something like <details> would.
  25. # [00:25] <jgraham> (the fact that @title is used to indicate what happens when you click the image rather than to give a title is a bit sad but I'm pretty convinced that a screenreader user could work out what was going on on that page without any alt text)
  26. # [00:26] <Philip`> jgraham: It is visible, and hence it is really ugly, and so it'd be nicer if it wasn't visible
  27. # [00:27] <Philip`> and @title would help if it was split into lots of <img>s, or used an image map or whatever
  28. # [00:27] <jgraham> Philip`: I think it's a really poor example of where title might help :)
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  35. # [02:59] <Philip`> takkaria: Why shouldn't <h a='&COPY'> get turned into U+00A9?
  36. # [03:01] <takkaria> Y is U+0059
  37. # [03:01] <takkaria> "If the character reference is being consumed as part of an attribute, and the last character matched is not a U+003B SEMICOLON (;), and the next character is in the range ... U+0041 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A to U+005A LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Z, .... then, for historical reasons, all the characters that were matched after the U+0026 AMPERSAND (&) must be unconsumed, and nothing is returned."
  38. # [03:02] <Philip`> It matches &COPY and then the last character is Y which is not ;, and the next character is ' which is not in those ranges so it doesn't get unconsumed
  39. # [03:03] <takkaria> ah, I've gone and misread the spec, haven't I?
  40. # [03:03] <takkaria> there's a good reason people go to bed before 2am, I see
  41. # [03:03] <Philip`> It's still before 2am now :-)
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  43. # [03:04] <Philip`> There are good reasons to not go to bed before 2am too, such as having to write several hundred words before a deadline tomorrow
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  47. # [03:08] <takkaria> yeah, agreed, but I think my habit of coding well into the night is not helpful in terms of the number of mistakes I make. :)
  48. # [03:11] <Philip`> You'll have to compute the tradeoff between increased productivity due to spend more time working on it, and decreased productivity due to having more bugs
  49. # [03:20] <takkaria> I find I get more done in the night but it's of lower quality
  50. # [03:20] <takkaria> during the day I take more care over details
  51. # [03:22] <Philip`> If you only worry about details then you'll never get any of the big stuff done at all
  52. # [03:22] <takkaria> yeah, and for this reason I tend to prefer coding at night
  53. # [03:22] <jcranmer> quality, quantity, and time of day have no correlation for me
  54. # [03:23] <Philip`> The internet didn't become popular by being very carefully coded and engineered in every detail
  55. # [03:23] <jcranmer> the key correlation appears to be between quality and quantity as dependent variables on the independent variable of "time since I started work on this"
  56. # [03:23] <Philip`> so clearly you should just hack everything together as quickly as possible :-)
  57. # [03:24] <jcranmer> where quantity and quality start high at t = 0, quality starts to dip, followed by quantity some time later, followed by both going to 0
  58. # [03:24] <jcranmer> followed by a meteoric rise in quality and then a similar rise in quantity, with both forming a not-quite-in-phase cyclical graph
  59. # [03:25] <jcranmer> Quantity = max(A * cos (B * x) + C, 0)
  60. # [03:25] <jcranmer> Quality = max(A * cox (B * x + D) + C, 0)
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  62. # [03:26] <jcranmer> s/(?<\w)x/t/
  63. # [03:26] <takkaria> interesting
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  65. # [03:27] <jcranmer> s/A/A(t)/, where A(t) is a function which smooths out the peaks somewhat
  66. # [03:27] <jcranmer> and B(t) is a function which induces non-constant recurrences between peaks and troughs
  67. # [03:27] <jcranmer> and C = 0
  68. # [03:28] <takkaria> :)
  69. # [03:28] <Philip`> So you're basically saying that quantity and quality are defined by the undefined arbitrary functions A and B? :-)
  70. # [03:28] <jcranmer> A and B as constants are rough approximations
  71. # [03:30] <jcranmer> just like elementary physics problems use the approximation sin(x) = x for small values of x to simplify a differential equation to a linear one
  72. # [03:32] <Philip`> What frame of reference are you measuring t in? If you travelled in a relativistic spaceship, would you be any more productive?
  73. # [03:33] <jcranmer> Philip`: my frame of reference
  74. # [03:33] <jcranmer> or, should I say, the frame of my internal clock
  75. # [03:34] <Philip`> What would happen if you surgically extracted your internal clock and put it on the spaceship?
  76. # [03:34] <jcranmer> which experiences relativistic effects just from flying in an airplane :-)
  77. # [03:34] <jcranmer> (although neither General nor Special Relativity, but Joshua Relativity)
  78. # [03:37] <Hixie> jgraham: there are many cases where you want the image to just not be mentioned
  79. # [03:37] <Hixie> jgraham: and just replaced with its alternative text
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  105. # [07:04] <Hixie> reading through alt="" e-mail, it seems my life would be a lot easier if i was an accessibility expert
  106. # [07:04] <Hixie> i could just say things without having to defend them with data
  107. # [07:05] <Hixie> i wonder how i become an accessibility expert
  108. # [07:05] <roc> gouge your own eyes out
  109. # [07:06] <Hixie> the first hit for "how to become an accessibility expert" on google is a powerpoint presentation "Become an Accessibility Expert in 50 min"
  110. # [07:06] <Hixie> no, many accessibility experts are not blind
  111. # [07:06] <roc> I didn't say it was the only way
  112. # [07:07] <roc> I bet you can do it in less than 50 minutes
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  141. # [10:19] <Dashiva> Darths & Droids comes out in favor of text equivalents not being equivalent enough. I wonder if anyone will cite that :)
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  147. # [11:04] <jgraham> Hixie: If you just want the image replaced by its alternate text i follows you know what the alternate text is so you put it in the alt attribute and there's no problem
  148. # [11:05] <Hixie> jgraham: my point is that you wouldn't necessarily even want the UA to (by default) inform the user that there is an image in that case
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  150. # [11:13] <jgraham> Hixie: I don't disagree with that. It's the case where there is no alt attribute where a UA could announce there is an image and read the title attribute
  151. # [11:14] <Hixie> jgraham: it could always read the title attribute, that seems orthogonal
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  153. # [11:16] <jgraham> Not really. If I have <img alt="XYZ Systems" title="XYZ systems logo"> I don't expect the UA to read both @alt and @title
  154. # [11:18] <jgraham> Whereas for <img title="XYZ Systems Logo"> reading Image, XYZ Systems Logo seems quite helpful
  155. # [11:18] <Hixie> <img title="XYZ Systems Logo"> is non-conforming
  156. # [11:18] <Hixie> and in both cases, the title="" attribute's value sucks
  157. # [11:19] <jgraham> We get o choose what is non-conforming :)
  158. # [11:19] <jgraham> Also, why does it suck?
  159. # [11:19] <Hixie> i chose it to be non-conforming :-) it has no reason to be conforming
  160. # [11:19] <Hixie> the title attribute doesn't help anything
  161. # [11:20] <Hixie> in that case
  162. # [11:20] <Hixie> i mean, it's not _wrong_
  163. # [11:20] <jgraham> (it should be non conforming in this case because there is obvious alt text. But thre are cases like flickr where the photo is likely to have a title but no alternate text avaliable)
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  165. # [11:21] <Hixie> yes, in those cases it would be fine for the UA to mention that there is potentially useful title="" text
  166. # [11:21] <Hixie> that's just part of whatever helpful stuff it wants to give
  167. # [11:22] <jgraham> What other helpful stuff does it want to give?
  168. # [11:23] <jgraham> The only other information likely to be avaliable is a category of image like Photo or Logo or whatever
  169. # [11:24] <jgraham> Is that really useful enugh to invent a whole microsyntex for alt that causes it to duplicate much of the functionality of @title?
  170. # [11:24] <Hixie> it might know what the image is through image analysis (e.g. it might notice the image is fully transparent or 1x1) or it might notice that the image is one that it has seen before on another page where it had alt="" text, or it might be one that it recognises has a face in it, or any number of other things
  171. # [11:24] <Hixie> i don't think alt="{photo}" is information that would ever be appropriate in title=""
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  174. # [11:30] <jgraham> Hixie: if the UA notices something through image analysis it seems fine to present that alongside / instead of @title (assumng no @alt). I'm not sure that changes the fact that <img alt={photo}> isn't providing much useful informaion and, in particular is probably less useful than an image with a good title (which is often easier to enter in a CMS than a text alternative)
  175. # [11:30] <Hixie> i agree that the title, if available, would be fine information to make available
  176. # [11:30] <Hixie> in most cases (e.g. flickr) i imagine all such information would be on the page and not in the title=""
  177. # [11:31] <Hixie> title="" makes more sense for images that aren't the main topic of the page, in which case the alt="" text is usually available anyway
  178. # [11:32] <Lachy> Hixie, could you answer this question for me? http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080803#l-507
  179. # [11:32] <jgraham> I guess if there really is no good alt text or any good title, having some way to indicate the type of the image might be useful though I would expect it to be wrong much of the time (consider sites that allow users to upload photos or 3D renerings)
  180. # [11:33] <jgraham> Hixie: flickr puts the title of the photo in @title
  181. # [11:33] <Hixie> Lachy: "yes"
  182. # [11:33] <Hixie> Lachy: (is the answer to the question. unknown characters become "?".)
  183. # [11:34] <Hixie> jgraham: yeah, it also puts it in alt="", and in the header, and all over the place
  184. # [11:34] <Lachy> Hixie, ok. Cause that didn't match the behaviour of Firefox or Safari. Was that intentional? (I didn't test IE yet)
  185. # [11:34] <Hixie> jgraham: listening to that site in a screen reader is like being in an echo chamber
  186. # [11:34] <Hixie> Lachy: they convert unknown chars to &12345; right?
  187. # [11:34] <Hixie> Lachy: oh wait
  188. # [11:34] <Hixie> Lachy: firefox switches to UTF-8
  189. # [11:34] <Philip`> Lachy: Firefox seems crazy and switches between document-encoding and UTF-8 depending on what characters there are
  190. # [11:34] <Hixie> right?
  191. # [11:35] <Hixie> and the others se &12345; or something
  192. # [11:35] <Hixie> or is that just for form submission
  193. # [11:35] <Philip`> Safari changed recently, so nightly versions of WebKit probably do something different to 3.1
  194. # [11:35] <Lachy> Hixie, demo: http://tinyurl.com/6na2xh
  195. # [11:35] <Hixie> anyway either way iirc i looked at what they did, decided they were all on crack, and made the spec say "?" because that's the only thing that makes sense
  196. # [11:35] <Hixie> yeah safari does the &12345; thing, firefox does utf-8
  197. # [11:35] <Hixie> both are insane
  198. # [11:36] <Lachy> ok
  199. # [11:36] <Philip`> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0426.html
  200. # [11:36] <Hixie> (we might switch the spec to &12345; in cr, though i will fight it all the way :-) )
  201. # [11:37] <Lachy> ok. I thought Firefox converting to UTF-8 seemed reasonable
  202. # [11:37] <Philip`> What about character sets that don't contain the "?" character?
  203. # [11:37] <Hixie> Lachy: on the server side you have no idea what the encoding is if it changed, so how are you supposed to tell?
  204. # [11:37] <Hixie> what's a valid use case for splitting an image into two or more pieces?
  205. # [11:37] <Hixie> Philip`: like what?
  206. # [11:38] <Philip`> Hixie: Like a hypothetical one I could make up to be awkward
  207. # [11:38] * Hixie goes to add that encoding to the spec in the "must not support" column
  208. # [11:38] <Hixie> (hypothetically)
  209. # [11:39] <Lachy> Hixie, I just thought if it were defined to be UTF-8 for a specified set of document encodings, or else the document encoding for anything else then the server would know by looking at what the spec told it to expect
  210. # [11:40] <Lachy> but I don't mind it converting to ?, if that's compatible with the web
  211. # [11:40] <Philip`> Hixie: <p>We have had <img src=counter/1.gif><img src=counter/4.gif><img src=counter/3.gif> visitors since 1998</p>, since it's often unacceptable to require server-side image generation (because that's complex and inefficient), where the appropriate alt text is a single string "143" and is not three distinct digit strings
  212. # [11:41] <Hixie> lachy: what firefox does is look at the characters in the url and decide on the encoding based on whether it can convert them or not
  213. # [11:41] <Hixie> Lachy: it's not based on the document encoding per se
  214. # [11:41] <Lachy> oh, ok. That's definitely insane
  215. # [11:41] <Hixie> Philip`: any other cases?
  216. # [11:42] <Philip`> Hixie: Do you count slicing images to create image maps (without using <map>, because e.g. you want one slice to be replaced dynamically when you move the mouse over it) to be a valid use case?
  217. # [11:43] <Hixie> no, because in those cases you'd want the alternative text in each image, not all in one
  218. # [11:44] <Philip`> Repeat the whole text in each <img>? That sounds like it would be annoyingly repetitive to anyone who is reading the page without images
  219. # [11:45] <Hixie> no, you'd want each link to have its appropriate text
  220. # [11:47] <Philip`> What if the image is a smiley face and the nose changes colour when you move the mouse over it, and so the image is sliced up so it only has to download the small nose section when it updates? The appropriate alt text for the whole thing would be something like "Smiley face" or whatever, and there wouldn't be appropriate text for each individual <img>
  221. # [11:50] <Lachy> woah, Firefox will encode all characters as UTF-8 if there are any non-ISO-8859-1 characters elsewhere in the query string. e.g. ?&copy; vs. ?&#x4B38;&copy;
  222. # [11:50] <Hixie> Lachy: correct
  223. # [11:50] <Hixie> Philip`: seems contrived, but ok :-) thanks
  224. # [11:51] <Philip`> There are probably better examples but I can't think of them right now :-p
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  234. # [12:52] <nzkoz> hsivonen: Are you around?
  235. # [12:53] <hsivonen> nzkoz: yes
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  237. # [12:54] <nzkoz> hey, if you have a moment I have a few questions about the validator.nu service, I've noticed some changes in the responses lately (since its downtime)
  238. # [12:55] <nzkoz> Things like http://xrl.us/omobx which now only give a few errors (one of which is fatal( where previously it enumerated quite a few more?
  239. # [12:56] <nzkoz> was there a major change that happened that I should do some reseearch on?
  240. # [12:57] <hsivonen> nzkoz: I fixed paragraph end inference inside list items, at least
  241. # [12:58] <hsivonen> nzkoz: do you remember what the old errors were about?
  242. # [12:59] <hsivonen> nzkoz: I haven't changed the XHTML 1.0 schemas lately except to tweak xml:space issues.
  243. # [12:59] <nzkoz> let me dig up an old response
  244. # [13:02] <Hixie> why aren't my e-mails making the list
  245. # [13:02] <Hixie> lists
  246. # [13:02] <Hixie> why aren't my e-mails going anywhere
  247. # [13:02] <Hixie> wtf
  248. # [13:02] <nzkoz> hsivonen: previously we got back: Attribute “xml:lang” not allowed on element “html” at this point.
  249. # [13:02] <nzkoz> then additional errors
  250. # [13:02] <nzkoz> now that seems to be sufficient to stop parsing?
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  253. # [13:08] <nzkoz> hsivonen: yeah, at least in the 4 old responses I've dug up, the difference appears to be it stops reporting errors after it hits an xml:lang, previously it continued
  254. # [13:09] <hsivonen> nzkoz: oh. good point. I seem to have a bad config for XML violations.
  255. # [13:09] <hsivonen> nzkoz: thanks. I'll fix.
  256. # [13:11] <nzkoz> hsivonen: cheers, glad I could help. I'm scripting the json api and it's really useful. We're using gzip compression and setting a user agent, I assume you'd notify us if it were causing trouble?
  257. # [13:12] <hsivonen> nzkoz: yeah, that's OK.
  258. # [13:19] <Hixie> 1893 pending messages!
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  260. # [13:19] <tusho> <Hixie> i think i might make alt=”" required and say that when you don’t know what the image is, you have to say what kind of image it is (e.g. “uploaded image”, “photo”, “thumbnil”, or whatever) and put that in braces in the alt=”" attribute, as in alt=”{photo}”
  261. # [13:19] <tusho> seems reasonable
  262. # [13:19] <tusho> how does it interact with screen readers
  263. # [13:20] <Hixie> they say "image photo" or some such probably
  264. # [13:20] <hsivonen> does anyone happen to remember which element don't have class/id allowed in XHTML 1.0 and HTML 4.01?
  265. # [13:21] <tusho> Hixie: they pronounce punctuation
  266. # [13:21] <tusho> I believe
  267. # [13:21] <tusho> image opening curly brace photo closing curly brace
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  269. # [13:21] <Hixie> hsivonen: i sent you an e-mail with an archive link which is not accurate -- when you get the mail, then look around the link i gave for the actual link
  270. # [13:22] <Hixie> tusho: well by the time people are doing this on any kind of regular basis, hopefully they'll have caught up with the spec
  271. # [13:22] <Philip`> tusho: In the default configuration?
  272. # [13:22] <tusho> Hixie: now THAT'S wishful thinking :)
  273. # [13:22] <tusho> Philip`: i -think- so
  274. # [13:23] <Hixie> this is all for the case where the accessibility story is a lost cause anyway -- the whole point is we have no useful alternative text
  275. # [13:23] <tusho> Hixie: decoration
  276. # [13:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok
  277. # [13:23] <tusho> often basically useless to the content images are used to spruce up an article
  278. # [13:24] <tusho> for a screen reader, they should just be ignored
  279. # [13:24] <tusho> thus alt=""
  280. # [13:24] <Hixie> i don't understand why my scripts can send mail but i can't
  281. # [13:24] <Hixie> wtf
  282. # [13:24] <Hixie> tusho: spec says they should al be alt="" (empty alt), unaffected by this {photo} thing
  283. # [13:25] <tusho> Hixie: but you said you might make alt= required
  284. # [13:25] <Hixie> for decorative images, it is required, and is required to be empty
  285. # [13:25] <tusho> oh, I see
  286. # [13:25] <tusho> I misread the quote
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  288. # [13:25] <tusho> I thought you meant making the alt attribute being mandatory and non-empty
  289. # [13:25] <Hixie> no
  290. # [13:26] <tusho> ok :)
  291. # [13:26] <Philip`> Calling it 'the alt="" attribute' is confusing, since that looks the same as saying decorative images must have alt=""
  292. # [13:27] <hsivonen> nzkoz: fixed. (the errors about the id attribute not being allowed in the XHTML 1.0 schema may be bogus. I'll investigate.)
  293. # [13:29] <nzkoz> hsivonen: awesome, thanks a bunch. For future reference is this the best way to raise anything else I notice? or should I use the bugzilla or...?
  294. # [13:29] * Parts: hdh00 (n=hdh@118.71.130.107) ("Konversation terminated!")
  295. # [13:30] <hsivonen> nzkoz: bugzilla.validator.nu is the preferred way, since there's a risk of IRC remarks falling through the cracks
  296. # [13:32] <nzkoz> k, will do. Thanks again
  297. # [13:39] <Philip`> Hixie: "... one of the images must its alt attribute set ..." is missing a word
  298. # [13:40] <Hixie> fixed
  299. # [13:40] <Hixie> thanks
  300. # [13:50] <Hixie> wish i knew why my e-mail wasn't going anywhere
  301. # [13:50] <Hixie> oh well
  302. # [13:50] <Hixie> bed time
  303. # [13:50] <Hixie> hopefully e-mail will make its way out while i'm sleeping
  304. # [13:54] <Philip`> I got commit notices for r1971, 1973, 1983 and 1985, and none of the ones in between
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  307. # [13:59] <mcarter> hello
  308. # [14:01] <mcarter> I don't suppose anyone has any idea what is supposed to happen (if there is a standard) when an HTTP/1.1 XHR response is half over when there is a page navigation. Should it a) shut the connection immediately, or b) wait for the rest of the response (though now irrelevant), and then re-use the connection
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  335. # [17:45] <gDashiva> I went in the month-change archive trap -again-
  336. # [17:45] <gDashiva> s/went/fell
  337. # [17:46] <Philip`> It's an effective way to get an occasional respite from the list discussions
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  362. # [19:27] <zcorpan> aha.. can we resolve the extensibility problem by making document.write work in xml?
  363. # [19:31] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@on-irc.csarven.ca) (Connection timed out)
  364. # [19:33] * hsivonen notes that the XML community already has its own document.write(). It's called disabling output escaping in XSLT.
  365. # [19:33] <gDashiva> I thought the XML community didn't want document.write
  366. # [19:34] <tusho> document.write = no thanks
  367. # [19:34] <Philip`> You could implement by having the server only transmit bytes up to the end of </script>, then having document.write() send an XMLHttpRequest to the server to tell it what bytes it should subsequently transmit to continue the XML document
  368. # [19:34] <tusho> a nicer layer over the DOM = yez plz
  369. # [19:34] <tusho> mochikit style that is
  370. # [19:34] <Philip`> s// it/
  371. # [19:34] <tusho> p(strong("hello"), " world")
  372. # [19:35] <tusho> maybe: with (DOM) { ... }
  373. # [19:35] <Philip`> tusho: Why not use thing.innerHTML = '<p><strong>hello</strong> world</p>' for that?
  374. # [19:35] <tusho> Philip`: The DOM is less prone to errors and programmatically cleaner.
  375. # [19:35] <tusho> Plus you can't construct an invalid tree with it.
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  377. # [19:39] <zcorpan> tusho: can't construct an invalid tree with innerHTML either
  378. # [19:39] <tusho> ok, wrong words
  379. # [19:39] <tusho> still
  380. # [19:39] <tusho> my other points stand
  381. # [19:42] <zcorpan> i'm not convinced that p(strong("hello"), " world") or (DOM) { ... } is less prone to error than innerHTML, and programmatically cleaner is just an opinion :)
  382. # [19:43] <Philip`> zcorpan: Try setting attributes in innerHTML and having to escape and concatenate everything properly, and then it should be clear which way is cleaner and less error-prone :-)
  383. # [19:45] <Lachy> I'm opposed to introducing document.write() into XML. It's unfortunate that it even exists for HTML
  384. # [19:45] <Philip`> But it's really useful
  385. # [19:45] <hsivonen> Lachy: with a well defined XML5 parsing algorithm including script execution steps, we could define document.write() for XML
  386. # [19:45] <Lachy> it encourages poorly structured programming practices
  387. # [19:46] <Philip`> It encourages people to write HTML code that works and does what they want and makes them happy, even if someone might say it's poorly structured :-)
  388. # [19:47] <Lachy> and makes people work with the DOM by manipuating strings, instead of actually working with the DOM properly, and the fact that it injects characters back into the input stream is bad design
  389. # [19:48] <Philip`> Working with the DOM "properly" is really ugly and painful, so it's not surprising that everyone tries to avoid that
  390. # [19:48] <Lachy> innerHTML is reasonable, because at least it doesn't mess with the input stream
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  392. # [19:49] <Lachy> and keeps markup errors in the string isolated to just the element it's appeneded to
  393. # [19:49] <Philip`> But then you need to create a container element to set innerHTML, and give it an ID and document.getElementById('whatever') it and think of a new ID for every time you do this, and try not to get confused by all the indirection
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  395. # [19:50] <Lachy> to e.g. document.write() with an unclosed inline element will affect the rest of the document, unlike how it would work in innerHTML
  396. # [19:50] <Lachy> if you create a container element, then you don't need an ID, you already have a reference to it.
  397. # [19:50] <gDashiva> The DOM kinda shot itself in the foot by making long, unwieldy identifiers a feature
  398. # [19:51] <Lachy> if there's one already in the DOM, then sure, gEBId (or other selector) is needed
  399. # [19:51] <Lachy> also, document.write() violates the separation of script and markup principles
  400. # [19:51] <hsivonen> gDashiva: the DOM shot itself in many places in many ways
  401. # [19:52] <Lachy> gDashiva, agreed
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  403. # [19:52] <Philip`> Those separation principles rely on indirection, and hence are confusing and annoying
  404. # [19:52] <Lachy> your arguments are confusing and annoying
  405. # [19:53] <Philip`> That's quite possible
  406. # [19:53] <Lachy> there's nothing wrong with a little bit of indirection. It makes code more modular and allows for better reuse
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  408. # [19:53] * gDashiva laments the lost opportunity for "So's your face"
  409. # [19:54] <Lachy> :-D
  410. # [19:54] <gDashiva> So instead of document.write, what about a document.emitNode() or something, would that make people happy?
  411. # [19:55] <Lachy> how would it work?
  412. # [19:55] <Philip`> document.writeWellFormedFragment()?
  413. # [19:55] <Lachy> would it append the given node to the script's parent element?
  414. # [19:55] <gDashiva> Lachy: Yeah
  415. # [19:56] <Lachy> what if the <script> is the root element?
  416. # [19:56] <gDashiva> Then you deserve whatever is coming
  417. # [19:56] <gDashiva> Or you could specify it to replace the script element
  418. # [19:56] <zcorpan> Lachy: you do the same as document.appendChild() would do
  419. # [19:57] <Lachy> what if it's a DocumentFragment, with multiple child nodes? then it still would solve the root element problem/
  420. # [19:57] * Lachy goes to test how document.appendChild works in browsers
  421. # [19:57] <zcorpan> again, do the same as fragment.appendChild() would do :)
  422. # [19:58] <Lachy> it throws an error
  423. # [19:58] <gDashiva> The thing I'm trying to clarify is if the problem is emitting markup vs emitting DOM, or if it's emitting itself that's the problem
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  425. # [19:58] <Philip`> What if the script removes its own <script> element from the document, and then calls emitNode()?
  426. # [19:59] <Lachy> zcorpan, no, I meant if you did document.emitNode(fragment); where fragment is a DocumentFragment
  427. # [19:59] <zcorpan> Philip`: then you do the same as document.appendChild() would do ;)
  428. # [19:59] <zcorpan> Lachy: ah
  429. # [19:59] <hsivonen> if you don't like doc.write but want to do it, you can compile a parser into JS using GWT and parse strings without source text insertion support in the browser
  430. # [19:59] <zcorpan> Lachy: well then you act as if you did document.appendChild() multiple times
  431. # [19:59] <Lachy> yeah, that would throw an exception
  432. # [20:00] <zcorpan> depends on if there's a root element or not
  433. # [20:00] <Lachy> what is GWT?
  434. # [20:00] <hsivonen> Lachy: Google Web Toolkit
  435. # [20:00] <zcorpan> i guess it would insert the first element and then throw, but perhaps it could be specced so that if it throws, nothing happens
  436. # [20:01] <Philip`> hsivonen: But only crazy people would do that
  437. # [20:01] <Philip`> hsivonen: and only crazy people who don't care about performance
  438. # [20:02] <hsivonen> Philip`: actually, if I manage to ship a JS library for retrofitting HTML5 parsing into Firefox 3, Safari 3.1 and Opera 9.5, I'd expect people to use it as a fallback for the past generation when the then-current generation support HTML5 parsing natively
  439. # [20:02] <Philip`> hsivonen: How many tens/hundreds of kilobytes of JS code is it?
  440. # [20:02] <hsivonen> if using it is as simple as <body><script src=html5.js></script>
  441. # [20:03] <hsivonen> Philip`: 128 KB without gzip
  442. # [20:03] <Lachy> heh, Hixie's mail from 10:16 this morning finally arrived about 10 hours late
  443. # [20:04] <Lachy> the one about the alt attribute stuff
  444. # [20:05] * Quits: codedread_ (n=chatzill@wwwgate34.motorola.com) (Remote closed the connection)
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  446. # [20:06] <hsivonen> Philip`: 36 KB with gzip
  447. # [20:07] <hsivonen> Philip`: my footprint vs. execution speed choices are meant for Java and C++, so it's not optimal for JS footprint
  448. # [20:09] * Quits: codedread_ (n=chatzill@wwwgate4.motorola.com) (Remote closed the connection)
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  451. # [20:10] <hsivonen> http://derstandard.at/text/?id=1216918402134
  452. # [20:11] <hsivonen> Miguel seems to prefer Microsoft-controlled environments over JS and SVG
  453. # [20:12] * Joins: psa (n=yomode@71.93.19.66)
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  456. # [20:16] <Philip`> That does not seem unexpected
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  460. # [20:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: what does <img src=x alt={> represent when the ua is configured to not show images?
  461. # [20:23] <Lachy> zcorpan, that's covered by the 2nd condition in the spec "If the src attribute is set and the alt attribute is set to a string with at least one character whose first character is not a U+007B LEFT CURLY BRACKET character ({) or whose last character is not a U+007D RIGHT CURLY BRACKET character (})"
  462. # [20:23] <Lachy> that's the confusing one I complained about, cause I had the same question initially, till I figured it out before sending my mail
  463. # [20:23] <zcorpan> Lachy: how am i reading it wrong?
  464. # [20:24] <zcorpan> the first character IS { so it's not covered by that case
  465. # [20:24] <Lachy> because the last character is not '}'
  466. # [20:24] <Philip`> "{" has a first character that is not "{" or it has a last character that is not "}", so it is covered by that case
  467. # [20:24] <zcorpan> Lachy: it says or, not and
  468. # [20:25] <Lachy> no, think of it like this:...
  469. # [20:25] <zcorpan> hmm
  470. # [20:26] <Lachy> if ( isset(src) && isset(alt) && (alt[first-letter] != '{' || alt[last-letter] != '}'))
  471. # [20:26] <Lachy> (that's just some sort of pseudo-code, don't try to run it)
  472. # [20:27] * Philip` doesn't know of any languages in which "first-letter" is a valid identifier rather than a subtraction expression :-p
  473. # [20:27] <Lachy> Philip`, in CSS it is
  474. # [20:27] <Lachy> :-)
  475. # [20:27] <Philip`> But CSS doesn't have subtraction expressions, so that doesn't count :-)
  476. # [20:28] <zcorpan> doesn't it have calc() ?
  477. # [20:28] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-83746444fabfede5)
  478. # [20:28] <Lachy> not yet
  479. # [20:28] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-a43a49a64e3a1cbc) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  480. # [20:28] <Lachy> unless someone specced a proposal for it that I missed.
  481. # [20:29] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-values/#calc ?
  482. # [20:29] <Lachy> oh
  483. # [20:29] <Philip`> When I say "CSS" I mean "real CSS like what you can actually use in real life and it'll work in sensible web browsers"
  484. # [20:33] <Lachy> Philip`, in that case, you can use IE's expression()
  485. # [20:34] <hsivonen> is the execution time of expression well defined?
  486. # [20:34] <hsivonen> what if an expression has side effects?
  487. # [20:34] <Philip`> Lachy: "sensible web browsers"
  488. # [20:34] <Lachy> hsivonen, exression isn't defined at all. It's only poorly documented in MSDN, like all of Microsoft's extensions
  489. # [20:34] <Philip`> hsivonen: It isn't
  490. # [20:35] <Philip`> You can have side effects, and it'll just do whatever IE's layout engine wants to do
  491. # [20:35] <Lachy> hsivonen, I expect that IE would probably crash. I know that when i was forced to use it once, any time I did something mildly complicated, IE crashed
  492. # [20:36] <hsivonen> great value for users then
  493. # [20:36] <Lachy> it's designed for simple expressions, and for that it works ok. but it's not really well designed or implemented at all
  494. # [20:37] * Joins: Windstoss_ (n=wind@mnhm-590d9ac5.pool.einsundeins.de)
  495. # [20:38] <Lachy> plus, it creates an attack vector, if a site allows style attributes to be added by users in comments or whatever, without filtering out expressions
  496. # [20:41] <Lachy> hah! I thought the Knights Templar only existed in Indian Jones and the Last Crusade. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08/04/knights_templar_pope/
  497. # [20:43] <tusho> Philip`: {doesn't know of any languages in which "first-letter" is a valid identifier rather than a subtraction expression :-p}
  498. # [20:43] <tusho> lisp
  499. # [20:43] <tusho> dyland
  500. # [20:43] <tusho> *dylan
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  502. # [20:43] <Philip`> tusho: Ah, so it's only crazy languages ;-)
  503. # [20:48] <Lachy> http://xkcd.com/297/
  504. # [20:48] <Lachy> my pseudo-code above did use a lot of parenthesis too. :-)
  505. # [20:52] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  506. # [20:52] <zcorpan> + users or very low-bandwidth connections or who pay by the byte, or
  507. # [20:52] <zcorpan> i guess people will laugh at that in 10 years
  508. # [20:52] * Quits: Windstoss (n=wind@mnhm-590d9b0c.pool.einsundeins.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  509. # [20:55] <Lachy> zcorpan, what? no-one has such poor connections these days. Even dial up is relatively cheap
  510. # [20:55] <Philip`> zcorpan: Ten years ago when people started using things like ADSL, I imagine they would have laughed at the idea of still having very low-bandwidth connections and paying by the byte in the present day
  511. # [20:57] <Philip`> but people are still willing to pay for really rubbish internet connections, mostly since there's no competition and they have no other choice
  512. # [20:57] <zcorpan> Philip`: yeah, i'm not sure why we still have very low-bandwidth and pay by the byte :)
  513. # [20:57] <Lachy> oh, I didn't realise you were quoting hte spec
  514. # [20:57] <Lachy> Hixie probably put it in as a bit of a joke
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  516. # [20:58] <jgraham> Lots of mobile users have low bandwidth, poor connections and pay by the byte
  517. # [20:58] <zcorpan> what jgraham said
  518. # [20:58] * Joins: aaronlev__ (n=chatzill@f051106244.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  519. # [20:58] <Lachy> well, by the kilobyte, maybe
  520. # [20:58] * aaronlev__ is now known as aaronlev
  521. # [20:59] <Philip`> People are still willing to pay however much they pay for SMS messages - the price hasn't been driven to zero by the improvements in technology, because what's important is how much the service is worth to people, and that's fairly constant over time
  522. # [20:59] <Lachy> I suppose they still charge a lot for mobile and wireless connections these days
  523. # [21:00] <jgraham> Philip`: there are lots of plans with hundreds of free texts for only £extortionate monthly rates
  524. # [21:00] <Lachy> Philip`, people have been complaining about the price of SMS for a while
  525. # [21:00] <Lachy> it's the telcos that just won't listen
  526. # [21:00] <jgraham> Lachy: I don't recall that happening in the UK
  527. # [21:00] <jgraham> where SMS is very very popular
  528. # [21:00] <Lachy> I didn't say it wasn't popular. Just expensive
  529. # [21:01] <Philip`> Lachy: Why should they listen?
  530. # [21:01] <Lachy> Depending on your plan, it can still cost $0.20 per message
  531. # [21:01] <Lachy> ...in Australia
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  533. # [21:01] <Lachy> though, at least some offer either unlimited or hundreds of free SMSs
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  536. # [21:06] <Philip`> I guess the mobile operators looked at the internet running over standard telephone lines and decided that it was clearly a miserable failure since the telephone companies weren't being paid any more than for standard voice calls, and so they're still trying hard to avoid that mistake
  537. # [21:09] <jgraham> Philip`: I guess that's not true in the UK because there does seem to be actual competition between operators
  538. # [21:10] <jgraham> (well I mean it might be true that they prefer that scenario, but it's hard to imagine how they will be able to maintain it)
  539. # [21:10] <jgraham> s/that scenario/the current scenario/
  540. # [21:11] * Philip` knows almost nothing about mobile phones, since he's only ever had one (which is probably four or five years old now) and almost never uses it
  541. # [21:12] * jgraham keeps losing his phone
  542. # [21:12] <jgraham> (well that is to say I did it and then didn't get another one)
  543. # [21:13] <jgraham> (because I hardly ever used it anyway and cool stuff like internet access is only sensibly priced if you also buy an expensive contract)
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  546. # [21:26] <zcorpan> Hixie: the captca example is missing an end tag
  547. # [21:31] <zcorpan> given 4.7.2.1.10., alt is still not always required
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  555. # [21:57] <Hixie> zcorpan: i agree that the patch isn't one we want, but thanks for the headsp
  556. # [21:57] <Hixie> zcorpan: (i trust your judgement in these issues)
  557. # [22:03] <zcorpan> Hixie: having many mods seems to be effective against spam
  558. # [22:04] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-225.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  559. # [22:04] <zcorpan> Hixie: we've only had spam once and two mods were on it pretty quickly :)
  560. # [22:05] <Hixie> nice
  561. # [22:08] <zcorpan> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=84
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  563. # [22:15] <Lachy> "no co-operative exchange occured with WAI prior to the changes..." - Is he choosing to ignore excessive amount of discussion about the whole issue previously on public-html and the wai lists?
  564. # [22:17] <Lachy> maybe because this specific proposal wasn't discussed on the list recently, before it was added to the spec. But so what? It's a proposal. At least this gives us something to discuss
  565. # [22:17] <Hixie> well i'm glad that we're worried about process rather than what the spec says now
  566. # [22:17] <Hixie> that's at least a step in the right direction
  567. # [22:19] * aroben is now known as aroben|meeting
  568. # [22:19] <Lachy> well, he said he hasn't had time to review it all yet. But I find it annoying having so many bureaucracy trolls
  569. # [22:24] * Joins: Windstoss_ (n=wind@mnhm-590d845e.pool.einsundeins.de)
  570. # [22:24] <Lachy> I'm pretty sure this proposal will be much more well received than the last, since it actually ends up giving a lot more useful information about the image than something like noalt="", or some other reserved keyword like alt="_unknown"
  571. # [22:26] <Philip`> And because people who might have minor objections will keep quiet since they don't want to risk reanimating the issue
  572. # [22:27] <Hixie> hah
  573. # [22:27] <Hixie> didn't stop lachy! :-P
  574. # [22:28] <Lachy> Hixie, I think you should rephrase the "In a rare subset of these cases..." and "...if the site has received 8000 photos...". Those particular phrases caused quite a lot of controversy and don't seem to convey their intended meaning well
  575. # [22:28] <Hixie> yeah
  576. # [22:28] <Hixie> god point
  577. # [22:28] <Hixie> good even
  578. # [22:30] <Lachy> I think it should just focus on the specific conditions of when using {...} is acceptable. i.e. when the image is obtained without associated alt text, rather than trying to explain it through examples
  579. # [22:32] <Hixie> it also applies to inkblot tests and blind people's photos
  580. # [22:34] <Lachy> probably also applies to fixed weather cams or traffic cams, which just take and publish intermittent photographs without user intervention
  581. # [22:35] <Philip`> And coffee pot cams
  582. # [22:35] <Lachy> haven't seen one of those
  583. # [22:36] <Philip`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_room_coffee_pot
  584. # [22:36] <Dashiva> They're common in highly caffeinated nerd clubs
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  586. # [22:41] <Hixie> ok Lachy, checked in your suggestions
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  588. # [22:43] <Hixie> didn't change the e-mail thing, i don't see any reason why it would matter in that case, and it doesn't affect web page conformance anyway
  589. # [22:46] <Lachy> Hixie, missing ')' from the end of: If the src attribute is set and the alt attribute is set to a value that isn't matched by the previous two entries (not empty, not "{...}"
  590. # [22:46] <Hixie> oops
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  592. # [22:47] <Lachy> and you didn't change it for the other one describing the case for when the src attribute is not set
  593. # [22:48] <Hixie> right, see e-mail
  594. # [22:49] <Hixie> i have GOT to start taking out the "***DHSPAN***" bits of subject lines i send!
  595. # [22:50] <Dashiva> What is that anyway?
  596. # [22:50] <Lachy> s/DHSPAN/DHSPAM/ == DreamHost SPAM, I figure
  597. # [22:50] <Hixie> yeah
  598. # [22:51] <Hixie> people who top-post tend to trigger my last spam line of defence
  599. # [22:51] <Hixie> which is spam assassin's "i don't think it's spam but it's suspicious so i'll label it as such anyway"
  600. # [22:51] <Lachy> Hixie, the email just says you changed the order of them, but you only did it for one. Since they conditions are the basically the same, except one is for when src is present and the other for when it's not, they should be written in almost the same way.
  601. # [22:52] <Lachy> so it should be changed to "If the src attribute is *not* set and the alt attribute is set to a value that isn't matched by the previous two entries (not empty, not "{...}" )"
  602. # [22:53] <Hixie> oh!
  603. # [22:53] <Hixie> i see what you're saying
  604. # [22:53] <Hixie> my apologies
  605. # [22:53] <Lachy> what did you think I was saying?
  606. # [22:55] <Lachy> "...display some sort of indicator that the image is not being rendered, if possible providing..." needs to be fixed grammatically. It should be "... rendered and, if possible, providing ..."
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  608. # [22:57] <Hixie> ok all those are fixed now
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  611. # [23:04] <Lachy> ok, that works even better the way you did it with the "otherwise" condition
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  619. # [23:13] <Lachy> hmm, something is wrong with my IRC client. It just crashed several times in a row :-(
  620. # [23:13] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Remote closed the connection)
  621. # [23:13] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  622. # [23:14] <Lachy> ... and it did it again. Whenever I right click on it :-(
  623. # [23:14] <Hixie> d'oh
  624. # [23:14] <Philip`> Maybe it's a Mac application and they never imagined someone might right-click
  625. # [23:15] <Lachy> maybe there's something wrong with the profile or a plist or something.
  626. # [23:15] <Lachy> LOL
  627. # [23:15] <Lachy> I'm supposed to be able to right click on someones name and select to open a private chat with them
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  631. # [23:17] <Hixie> hsivonen's data shows that even in the svg files he downloaded, there are html <font> elements :-)
  632. # [23:18] <Hixie> though it looks like that can likely be accounted for by the cases where <font> wasn't in the svg namespace? unclear
  633. # [23:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: I looked for the local name
  634. # [23:18] * Joins: bradee-oh (n=bradeeoh@web7.webfaction.com)
  635. # [23:19] <hsivonen> I should rerun the analyzer excluding foreignContent stuff
  636. # [23:19] <hsivonen> foreignObject that is
  637. # [23:19] * Joins: bzed_ (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de)
  638. # [23:20] <Philip`> hsivonen: Do you record a list of which files match each of the features you're searching for?
  639. # [23:20] <Lachy> I never thought the HTML5 spec would ever teach me a new Norwegian word :-)
  640. # [23:20] <hsivonen> Philip`: i don't
  641. # [23:20] <Hixie> i'm hoping the norwegian word is correct
  642. # [23:20] <Lachy> according to Google Translate it is
  643. # [23:20] * Quits: billyjack (n=MikeSmit@71-218-67-30.hlrn.qwest.net) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  644. # [23:20] <Hixie> my norwegian friends have not yet responded!
  645. # [23:21] <Lachy> I'll look it up in my Norwegian dictionary for you
  646. # [23:21] <Hixie> yeah, but i used google translate to determine it, so...
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  661. # [23:21] <Lachy> Hixie, in all your time living in Norway, did you learn much Norwegian?
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  663. # [23:21] <Hixie> Lachy: not really
  664. # [23:21] <Hixie> Lachy: but i didn't try very hard
  665. # [23:22] <Lachy> ok
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  668. # [23:22] <Hixie> hsivonen: i really wasn't expecting the conclusions you drew from that data. that's really interesting.
  669. # [23:22] <Hixie> hsivonen: i think i'll make <font> be triggered from attributes
  670. # [23:22] <Lachy> nor have I. I know enough to get me through shopping
  671. # [23:22] <Lachy> and that's about it
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  674. # [23:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: what conclusions don't flow from the data?
  675. # [23:22] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.245)
  676. # [23:23] <Hixie> hsivonen: all the conclusions flow from the data
  677. # [23:23] <Hixie> hsivonen: i jsut wasn't expecting that data
  678. # [23:23] <hsivonen> ah. I thought you weren't expecting the conclusions given the data
  679. # [23:23] <Hixie> Lachy: i never found lack of norwegian knowledge to be a practical barrier to living in norway.
  680. # [23:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: anything particularly unexpected?
  681. # [23:24] <Hixie> hsivonen: that the svgwg proposal would actually break on more pages than the commented out proposal
  682. # [23:24] <Lachy> From my dictionay: *bilde* /subst/. n 1. picture
  683. # [23:24] <Hixie> also, the sheer number of metadata elements
  684. # [23:25] <Hixie> Lachy: not photograph? bummer.
  685. # [23:25] <Lachy> the example is "I took a picture of my daughter"
  686. # [23:25] <Lachy> I'll look up photo
  687. # [23:25] <hasather_> Hixie: that would be "fotografi"
  688. # [23:26] <Hixie> isn't that photography, as opposed to photograph?
  689. # [23:26] <Lachy> Hixie: *Photo* is either: fotografi, foto, bilde
  690. # [23:27] <hasather_> Hixie: oh, sorry, read that wrong, then it's "foto"
  691. # [23:27] <Hixie> bummer, i was hoping for something that looked nothing like "photo" :-)
  692. # [23:28] <Hixie> i'd have used french but it uses photo too
  693. # [23:28] <Lachy> Hixie, fotograph is the same as photograph
  694. # [23:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: you could use 'valokuva' for lang=fi
  695. # [23:28] <Hixie> aha!
  696. # [23:28] <Hixie> henri to the rescue
  697. # [23:28] <Lachy> I mean fotografi
  698. # [23:29] <Lachy> silly norwegians using an "f" instead of "ph" for an "f" sound is confusing ;-)
  699. # [23:29] <Hixie> hsivonen: lang=fi is "Finnish" right? (checking spelling)
  700. # [23:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: yes
  701. # [23:30] <Hixie> committed
  702. # [23:30] <Hixie> thanks
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  704. # [23:31] * Quits: polvi (n=polvi@osuosl/staff/polvi) (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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  707. # [23:33] <Lachy> I wish there was some way for the spec to dynamically update itself whenver Hixie makes a commit, so I don't need to keep reloading the whole thing
  708. # [23:33] <Hixie> hmmm...
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  710. # [23:34] <Hixie> that could be arranged
  711. # [23:34] <Lachy> cool
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  714. # [23:37] <Hixie> Lachy: when i make a commit, or when i make an edit even before committing it?
  715. # [23:38] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@216.239.45.19)
  716. # [23:39] <Lachy> commits would be sufficient, and would probably work better since the revision number would provide a way for it to ask the server for all updates since the last revision it received.
  717. # [23:39] <Lachy> so if I go offline for a little while, then I still get all the updates during that time when I return
  718. # [23:39] <roc> sigh
  719. # [23:39] <Hixie> my plan is just to reload the page
  720. # [23:39] <Hixie> not do DOM-level diffs
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  722. # [23:39] <Lachy> oh
  723. # [23:39] <Hixie> which would be insane amounts of work :-)
  724. # [23:39] <Hixie> roc: sigh?
  725. # [23:39] <Philip`> Rather than automatically reloading and making readers very confused if the text they just read has vanished for no apparent reason, could it just pop up a notification box with a button to reload?
  726. # [23:40] <Hixie> (patches welcome though if you want to do DOM-level diffs)
  727. # [23:40] <Lachy> well, I wouldn't want an auto refresh for that.
  728. # [23:40] <Lachy> since if I'm reading a section, I don't want it to suddently disappear
  729. # [23:41] <Hixie> a notification would be fine too i guess
  730. # [23:41] <Hixie> oh hey i know how to do diffs
  731. # [23:41] <Philip`> Subscribe to commit-watchers with a mail client that pops up a notification box when you get new mail
  732. # [23:41] <Lachy> I wonder how DOM level diffs could be implemented. Might have to parse the old revision and the latest revision with html5lib, then diff the DOMs and send back the changes somehow
  733. # [23:41] <roc> http://derstandard.at/?url=/?id=1216918402134 ... it's Miguel de Icaza
  734. # [23:42] <Hixie> i could also do it client-side by parsing the new doc into a DOM
  735. # [23:42] <Hixie> and doing something clever with the two DOMs
  736. # [23:42] <Philip`> By "clever" do you mean "fragile"?
  737. # [23:42] <Lachy> Philip`, I'm on commit watchers, but I don't like reading it cause that whole syntax is not really readable
  738. # [23:43] <Hixie> roc: so sad to see someone so intelligent fall onto a treadmill like that
  739. # [23:43] <Philip`> Lachy: The presence of the email still serves as a notification that you should reload the spec if you're currently reading it
  740. # [23:44] <Lachy> if it's done server side, then that would reduce your bandwidth load, but increase processor load. But if it's done client side, then it increases everyone's bandwidth load and client side processing
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  742. # [23:46] <Lachy> but I guess, walking the DOMs, and comparing the innerHTML of the block level elements, and then updating and flagging the ones that change would work.
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  745. # [23:47] <Philip`> If one paragraph is added, how would you tell that all the subsequent paragraphs are unchanged (just offset) from the previous version?
  746. # [23:48] <Lachy> xmldiff might work http://www.logilab.org/859
  747. # [23:48] <Lachy> it says it can work with DOMs
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  752. # [23:59] <Lachy> xmldiff won't even install
  753. # [23:59] <Lachy> $ python setup.py install
  754. # [23:59] <Lachy> File "setup.py", line 23
  755. # [23:59] <Lachy> from __future__ import nested_scopes
  756. # [23:59] <Lachy> SyntaxError: from __future__ imports must occur at the beginning of the file
  757. # Session Close: Tue Aug 05 00:00:00 2008

The end :)