/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-08-07 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Aug 07 00:00:00 2008
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:01] <Hixie> the idea of concept browsers isn't the ui, it's the features :-)
# [00:04] <roc> "Firefox of the future"? I don't think so :-)
# [00:04] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.255.107.218)
# [00:04] <Lachy> I realise, that, but they should try to focus on presenting the features, instead of destroying the whole idea with over engineered and flashy UI
# [00:05] <Hixie> to be honest i had too much trouble with the "scenario"-type presentation to actually see the ui
# [00:05] <Hixie> i don't understand why people always waffle so much instead of just saying their piece and shutting up
# [00:05] <Hixie> (though i'm sure i waffle sometimes too)
# [00:07] <roc> the fact is, bling sells
# [00:08] <Lachy> the second video with the history search feature is ok. Being able to search and filter history by both keywords and approximately when I visited a page is something I've wanted for a long time
# [00:09] <Hixie> i've been telling people that search browsers should have full-text-search through history of all pages ever viewed (and no expiring ever) for some time
# [00:09] <Hixie> the number of times i want to search for something i saw recently but can't find any more is mindboggling
# [00:10] <Lachy> sometimes, i visit a page, close it and then want to return to it a couple of hours later. But then just searching for keywords doesn't help when I have about 6 months of browsing history
# [00:10] <Lachy> I set my history expiration to 999 days
# [00:10] <roc> you need good heuristics for searching all that data though
# [00:11] <roc> I hate to be parochial, but FF3's urlbar search is better than Opera's for that reason, even though it indexes less data
# [00:12] <Lachy> my opera profile isn't kept around long enough for me to have a decent history, since I'm always testing with internal builds. So I can't really comment on the quality of Opera's history search
# [00:13] <Lachy> I use Firefox for personal stuff and opera for testing, to keep things separate
# [00:13] <roc> you can't use the same opera profile across different internal builds?
# [00:13] * Joins: playmobil (n=playmobi@nat/google/x-869bc4e0aec55ee7)
# [00:14] <aboodman> hello playmobil
# [00:14] <roc> My Opera upgrades seem to preserve my profile just fine
# [00:14] <Lachy> I can, but internal builds have so many bugs, I like to keep a more stable profile for everyday use separate from the testing profile.
# [00:14] <playmobil> Hey there aboodman!
# [00:14] <Lachy> also, running 2 separate instances of Opera, even with separate profiles, is confusing
# [00:14] * Hixie commits another workers example
# [00:15] <Hixie> the longest one so far
# [00:15] <Hixie> can't wait for people to implement workers so i can test these things!
# [00:15] <aboodman> that reminds me
# [00:15] <aboodman> Hixie: I had an idea for the gc issue
# [00:16] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host-n10-173.homerun.telia.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [00:16] <Lachy> Hixie, is the google gears team intending to update that to use this API to provide support in existing browsers?
# [00:16] <Hixie> a lot of the gc stuff got simplified away last night
# [00:16] <Hixie> but go ahead
# [00:16] <aboodman> I wanted to write it up but you had too many responses to m yfeedback and I got distracted
# [00:16] <Hixie> Lachy: no idea, ask aboodman :-)
# [00:16] <aboodman> Lachy: no idea, ask playmobil
# [00:16] <Lachy> LOL
# [00:17] <aboodman> Hixie: your latest idea I think still doesn't work consistently
# [00:17] <aboodman> if gmail opens a named worker on instance 1, then instance 2
# [00:17] <aboodman> then the user closes instance 1
# [00:17] <aboodman> then the behavior of xhr is different than if he had closed instance 2 first
# [00:17] * Quits: jgraham_ (n=james@81-86-213-50.dsl.pipex.com) ("I get eaten by the worms")
# [00:17] <aboodman> i fully admit this is a crazy edge case, but it irritates me that its inconsistent
# [00:18] <Hixie> only if gmail doesn't keep a reference to instance 2
# [00:18] <Hixie> but yes
# [00:18] <Hixie> i agree
# [00:18] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-118-83.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
# [00:18] <Hixie> so
# [00:18] <aboodman> what if instead, the list of things that i suggested keeps the worker live, but...
# [00:18] <Hixie> i was thinking of not including the 'port' global for shared workers
# [00:19] <Hixie> which would make it consistent, though bring back the odd behaviour for shared workers
# [00:19] <aboodman> i don't like the port global anyway
# [00:19] <Hixie> it makes the code so much easier, check out the examples
# [00:19] <Hixie> but what was your idea?
# [00:19] <aboodman> once all pages that ever had a MessagePort that refers to a worker unload, the worker is killed
# [00:20] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.230) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [00:20] <aboodman> does that make sense at all?
# [00:20] <Hixie> so basically make the lifetime be the maximum lifetime that it could have today, and prevent it from ever shutting down automatically before that?
# [00:21] <Hixie> sure, i could buy that
# [00:21] <aboodman> basically, workers are ref counted by the messages pending to them, and the messageports that are live, and the script running in them. this is what you have today.
# [00:22] <Lachy> without the port global, what would be used instead of port.postMessage()?
# [00:22] <Hixie> Lachy: see the example i just added
# [00:22] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl) ("Disconnected...")
# [00:22] <aboodman> additionally, things like httprequests that are pending can keep the worker alive past the point where it has no more references, but only if a page is alive that ever had a mesasgeport for that worker.
# [00:22] <Hixie> oh, ok
# [00:22] <Hixie> yeah i could buy that
# [00:23] <Hixie> shall i go ahead and make those changes?
# [00:23] <aboodman> i think it is better than what is there now
# [00:24] <Hixie> agreed
# [00:24] <Lachy> oh, ok. So listening for onconnect and getting a reference to the port from there.
# [00:27] <aboodman> Hixie: you say that MessagePort implements EventTarget, but I don't see it in the interface description
# [00:27] <aboodman> is there some convention that I am missing?
# [00:28] <Hixie> search for "eventtarget"
# [00:28] <Hixie> oops, i made the wrong object implement it
# [00:28] <Hixie> my bad
# [00:28] <Hixie> let me fix that
# [00:28] <Hixie> as soon as i've done this lifetime change
# [00:32] <aboodman> and as long as I have you
# [00:32] <aboodman> utils--
# [00:32] <aboodman> i will send mail with all this too
# [00:33] <Hixie> utils was sicking's idea, basically he said we shouldn'e be poluting the global scope with new features over time as it will cause clashes
# [00:33] <Hixie> (a lesson to learn from Window)
# [00:33] <Hixie> hey so what happens if you have a Window
# [00:33] <Hixie> and it creates a worker
# [00:34] <Hixie> and that worker creates a worker
# [00:34] <Hixie> and the nested worker then starts an XHR
# [00:34] <Hixie> and everyone drops their references so all the ports get GC'ed
# [00:36] <aboodman> so first of all, I think workers count as 'asynchronous things'
# [00:36] <aboodman> (we need a better word)
# [00:36] <aboodman> so a nested worker could keep its parent alive same as an xhr
# [00:37] <Hixie> so if a worker creates a worker, those two workers can never die until the window is closed?
# [00:37] <Hixie> that seems bad
# [00:37] <aboodman> no they can die
# [00:37] <aboodman> if they aren't doing anything and no ports or mesages reference them
# [00:37] <Hixie> this is going to be the most complicated set of conditions i have ever written
# [00:37] * Hixie flexes his wrists
# [00:37] <aboodman> agree
# [00:38] <aboodman> stop me if it won't work, it's just an idea
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# [00:39] <aboodman> i haven't thought through nested workers
# [00:39] <aboodman> nested workers are another thing i could live without
# [00:39] <Hixie> i see no reason why it shouldn't work, it'll just be a bitch to write in english
# [00:39] <Hixie> but that's what i do
# [00:39] <Hixie> :-)
# [00:39] <roc> I haven't really been paying attention, but how about saying that closing a window stops all workers it owns; any other early termination is just an optimization only
# [00:39] <roc> *and* provide a method for transferring ownership explicitly
# [00:39] <Hixie> roc: workers can be shared between windows, like XHR objects and so on
# [00:39] <Hixie> oh
# [00:39] <Hixie> hm
# [00:40] <Hixie> that seems like it's pushing the complexity on the author
# [00:40] <roc> complicated constraints are also complexity for the author
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# [00:40] <Hixie> not necessarily
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# [00:43] <roc> your call. Just thought I'd mention it as an option
# [00:43] <aboodman> ideally, the issue of when workers shut down doesn't come up
# [00:43] <aboodman> they just sort of do the right thing
# [00:43] <aboodman> from an author's point of view
# [00:44] <aboodman> and all the complexity is pushed onto UA developers
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# [00:46] <roc> of course, that's always the goal for every feature
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# [00:46] <roc> another tradeoff to keep in mind is that you don't want to create mysterious worker leaks
# [00:50] <aboodman> yep
# [00:50] <aboodman> i think my proposal achieves both of these (no mysterious leaks and 'does the right thing')
# [00:50] <aboodman> complexity is another issue
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# [00:53] <Hixie> aboodman: ok http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-workers/current-work/#the-workers
# [00:53] <Hixie> text with a green underline is a reference to the main html5 spec
# [00:54] <Hixie> i haven't set up cross-references cross-spec yet
# [00:54] <Hixie> i got rid of the "front line" stuff too
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# [00:56] <Hixie> aboodman: fixed the eventtarget thing
# [00:56] <aboodman> looking
# [00:57] <aboodman> i just sanity tested the lifetime idea with michaeln
# [00:57] <aboodman> he said it seemed reasonable
# [00:57] <aboodman> i am not sure about nested worker
# [00:57] <aboodman> do we really need workers creating workers?
# [00:57] <Hixie> sure, why not?
# [00:57] <Hixie> seems a bit weird to disallow it
# [00:58] <Hixie> especially since you can always just create a worker and pass the channel port to the worker
# [00:58] <aboodman> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/comms.html#messageport0
# [00:58] <Hixie> so it's not like you'd remove complexity by not allowing it
# [00:58] <aboodman> i still don't see it
# [00:58] <Hixie> oh MessagePort!
# [00:58] <Hixie> i thought you meant WorkerGlobalScope
# [00:58] <aboodman> same question for both
# [01:00] <Hixie> hm yes, MessagePort isn't right
# [01:00] * Hixie fixes
# [01:01] <Hixie> fixed, see just below the idl
# [01:01] <aboodman> what should i look for in the worker document about lifetime
# [01:01] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-workers/current-work/#the-workers
# [01:02] <Hixie> section "2.4 The worker's ports
# [01:02] <Hixie> "
# [01:02] <Hixie> and then search for "Closing orphan workers" which uses those erms
# [01:02] <Hixie> terms
# [01:03] <aboodman> sorry , but I still see nothing about 'EventTarget' near 'interface MessagePort'
# [01:04] <aboodman> dang, now i see it
# [01:04] <aboodman> so, why don't these IDL files use " : EventTarget" ?
# [01:04] <aboodman> that would be more clear
# [01:04] <Hixie> they don't inherit from EventTarget
# [01:05] <aboodman> err...
# [01:05] <Hixie> it's just that that one object implements several interfaces
# [01:05] <aboodman> why not say that MessagePort inherits EventTarget
# [01:06] <Hixie> why would you say that? what about all the other interfaces that it might implement one day?
# [01:06] <Hixie> e.g. the way Document implements Document, HTMLDocument, SVGDocument, EventTarget, etc
# [01:06] <Hixie> Document inherits from Node
# [01:06] <Hixie> because a Document is-a Node
# [01:07] <aboodman> i see your question
# [01:07] <aboodman> in many languages there is a way to say "implements"
# [01:07] <aboodman> i'm requesting this for WebIDL
# [01:07] <Hixie> that might be useful, yes
# [01:07] <Hixie> we'd also need the opposite, "is implemented by"
# [01:07] <Hixie> i requested both of these some time ago i believe :-)
# [01:13] <Hixie> (heycam: ^)
# [01:13] <Hixie> bbiab
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# [01:16] <aboodman> hi michaeln
# [01:19] <michaeln> hello aboodman
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# [01:22] <michaeln> hello again aa
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# [01:52] <Hixie> aboodman: i can show that if we have message ports, it's possible to end up with a worker that's a nested worker even if we disallow worker creation from inside workers, so even if we remove the api we can't remove the complexity in the lifetime definitions
# [01:53] <Hixie> (i just made a slideshow to prove it to myself)
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# [01:53] <aboodman> that makes sense
# [01:53] <aboodman> the way you define workers, the whole idea of "nested" workers is nonsensical
# [01:53] <aboodman> they are more of a graph
# [01:54] <aboodman> the page that created a worker is not special
# [01:56] <Hixie> yeah
# [02:09] <aboodman> one way to think of it that is not that complicated...
# [02:10] <aboodman> an httprequest can stay alive past when it has no references, in order to complete
# [02:10] <aboodman> however those all get killed when a page unloads, no matter what
# [02:10] <Hixie> yup
# [02:10] <Hixie> that's basically what it says now
# [02:11] <aboodman> so it makes sense that an httprequest can keep a worker alive in the same way
# [02:11] <aboodman> and a page can kill the worker (and the httprequest) in the same way when it unloads
# [02:14] * Dashiva worries about the miconceptions documented thread
# [02:15] <Dashiva> It seems like everyone agrees, yet there's so much back-and-forth. Oh, process.
# [02:15] <Hixie> i'm mostly waiting on heycam to update his spec
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# [02:59] <roc> hmmm
# [02:59] <aboodman> do we have a name for all the apis you can reach from JS in a browser?
# [02:59] <roc> "On setting, the following algorithm must be run:
# [02:59] <roc> 1. If the root element is an svg element in the "http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" namespace, and the user agent supports SVG, then the setter must defer to the setter for the DOM attribute of the same name on the SVGDocument interface."
# [02:59] <roc> but 'title' is readonly in SVGDocument
# [02:59] <aboodman> DOM is not technically correct, "the web platform" sounds very pretentious, and might be misinterpreted....
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# [03:12] <Hixie> aboodman: i call them DOM APIs
# [03:13] <Hixie> roc: then it would raise an exception i guess :-)
# [03:13] <aboodman> Hixie: we need a better phrase, since everyone is going to say 'but they aren't a part of DOM'
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# [03:26] <Hixie> *shrug*
# [03:26] <Hixie> if that's what people are complaining about, i'm happy
# [03:27] <Hixie> sicking was all on me yesterday telling me that fixing the spec as the highest priority ever, but i haven't heard back from him about the chaned
# [03:27] <Hixie> changes
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# [03:29] <Hixie> aboodman: btw one problem with making the offline cache an xml file is that it makes processing it a lot harder -- you can't just walk through the file one line at a time, now you have to check its conformance first and then you have to check namespaces and tag nams everywhere and so on
# [03:29] <Hixie> names
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# [03:31] <aboodman> Hixie: I understand it pulls in a lot of dependencies, but from this developer's point of view, it seems conceptually simpler
# [03:31] <aboodman> because XML is something that is already known that is being used to build something new
# [03:31] <Hixie> it'd be so much buggier
# [03:31] <aboodman> whereas this text thing is all new
# [03:32] <aboodman> do linebreaks matter?
# [03:32] <aboodman> what about two line breaks?
# [03:32] <aboodman> what about \r
# [03:32] <aboodman> what about tabs vs spaces
# [03:32] <aboodman> etc etc
# [03:32] <aboodman> all these have expected answers for xml
# [03:32] <aboodman> (again, my opinion, and I do understand that xml has tons of baggage)
# [03:32] <Hixie> xml has the same problem, except now you need to ask what tag name to use, what elements are allowed where and in what order, what attributes are allowed
# [03:33] <aboodman> i hate arguing about this kind of thing because you can go round and round forever
# [03:33] <Hixie> not to mention other questions they won't think to ask like what elements need to be in what namespaces, what happens if there are unexpected elements, can PIs be used, what encodings are allowed
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# [03:33] <Hixie> seems like moving to xml doesn't reduce the number of questions, it just makes them harder to understand
# [03:34] <aboodman> i really hesitate to wade into this pool, but...
# [03:34] <aboodman> don't schemas sort of handle this?
# [03:34] * Parts: michaeln1 (n=michaeln@nat/google/x-ce07a8feec35ce2a)
# [03:35] <Hixie> schemas just add even more questions
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# [03:35] <aboodman> UAs don't necessarily have to process the schema, but it would make defining the expected tags more formal
# [03:35] <Hixie> defining the structure isn't a problem
# [03:35] <Hixie> i mean, the current structure is defined
# [03:35] <Hixie> and it's not even xml
# [03:36] <aboodman> i understand, and yet, again, as a developer, i'm telling you that the text format makes me queazy
# [03:36] <aboodman> dunno what to tell you
# [03:37] <Hixie> (the current definition is about two screen lengths, doing it in xml would double or triple that, i'd imagine)
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# [03:37] <aboodman> i can't believe that
# [03:37] <aboodman> wouldn't it just be:
# [03:37] <aboodman> the manifest is an XML file validating against <this schema>
# [03:38] <Hixie> authors don't understand schemas, the schema would be many screens long, and the schema languages that exist can't define everything anyway
# [03:39] <michaeln1> can you make the text file extensible?
# [03:39] <aboodman> the authors don't necessarily have to understand the schema, the spec isn't primarily for authors anyway
# [03:39] <Hixie> (for example, how do you, in a schema, say that the "Opportunistic caching namespaces must have the same origin as the manifest itself." or whatever?)
# [03:39] <Hixie> michaeln1: the text file is extensible
# [03:39] <aboodman> for authors, there could just be a sample file
# [03:39] <aboodman> <shrug>
# [03:39] <roc> if browsers don't validate against the schema, it's worthless
# [03:39] <aboodman> sorry
# [03:39] <aboodman> <shrug/>
# [03:40] <Hixie> aboodman: i can provide a sample file for this too, if you want?
# [03:40] <Hixie> s/?//
# [03:40] <roc> but if they have to, icky ick
# [03:40] <aboodman> that would definitely be helpful
# [03:40] <aboodman> (the sample)
# [03:40] <Hixie> will add that to my TODO
# [03:40] <aboodman> but my natural reaction to text formats is always going to be:
# [03:40] <Hixie> (once i'm done with workers)
# [03:40] <aboodman> can i put comments in?
# [03:40] <aboodman> can there be multiple blank lines?
# [03:41] <aboodman> do carriage returns matter?
# [03:41] <aboodman> etc
# [03:41] <aboodman> where i feel like they are known answers with xml
# [03:41] <aboodman> i will leave it at that, because i don't want to argue about it anymore
# [03:41] <Hixie> sure but once you've done enough xml you'll find you have similar questions about xml vocabularies :-)
# [03:41] <Hixie> not comments, but e.g., "what happens if this element contains text?"
# [03:41] <Hixie> anyway
# [03:41] <Hixie> i'll add an example
# [03:42] <Hixie> that covers your questions
# [03:42] <michaeln1> at least then your discussing the semantics rather than the line discipline
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# [03:42] <Hixie> michaeln1: ok, "do spaces matter at the start of this attribute?"
# [03:44] <michaeln1> point taken
# [03:45] <aboodman> Hixie: fair enough
# [03:46] <michaeln1> how can i add an experimental category in the current scheme and retain compatibility with impls that don't know about my experimental category?
# [03:47] <Hixie> you can't
# [03:48] <Hixie> at least not with urls being on their own one per line like the other sections
# [03:48] <Hixie> i can change the parser model to allow it if you want
# [03:48] <michaeln1> same question for adding experimental attributes to entry lines?
# [03:49] <michaeln1> could be done with creative use of comments... but ugly
# [03:50] <Hixie> add the attribute on the line before the url, with a syntax that isn't a valid url, e.g. ":attr:"
# [03:51] <michaeln1> xml is cleaner on this dimension
# [03:51] <Hixie> cleaner is a matter of opinion
# [03:51] <Hixie> it certainly has many many more axes to screw things up in :-)
# [03:52] <Hixie> in practice, people implementing xml-based processors tend to ignore what the specs require, and just do what looks right, and you find that your extensibility model isn't nearly as extensible as it looks, because all the UAs fail in different ways when hitting the extensions
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# [04:14] <aboodman> Hixie: Are MessagePort's 'load' and 'error' events used for anything other than workers loading or failing to load
# [04:14] <Hixie> no
# [04:14] <Hixie> i believe the spec says so somewhere
# [04:15] <Hixie> search for "nothing in this" in html5
# [04:19] <aboodman> ok new feedback on the way
# [04:19] <Hixie> cool
# [04:19] <aboodman> it might be worthwhile for you and I to get together and hash out anything remaining
# [04:19] <aboodman> at least so we are on the same page
# [04:20] <Hixie> sure
# [04:20] <Hixie> i think we're much closer to each other than we are to sicking, which is more my concern to be honest
# [04:22] <Hixie> so i don't really understand the proposals you're making re worker objects, etc
# [04:23] <aboodman> right, and it take soooo long to type
# [04:23] <Hixie> is there any way you could rewrite the examples in the intro section to use what you're proposing?
# [04:23] <aboodman> that is why I like the idea of dinner
# [04:23] <Hixie> hmm, dinner
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# [04:31] <Hixie> i just wrote the worlds most complicated implementation of a numeric constant. but anyway.
# [04:35] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-workers/current-work/#delegation
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# [04:44] <Lachy> Hixie, does that just return the value 10000000 when it's all complete?
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# [05:58] <Hixie> Lachy: yeah
# [06:13] <Hixie> roc: re the mutation thing, i think the answer is that the mutation events spec is being updated to say that such events would be delayed past the end of the algorithm
# [06:13] <roc> hmm
# [06:13] <roc> who's doing that?
# [06:13] <Hixie> shepazu, i believe
# [06:14] <Hixie> roc: (also, if you want these issues dealt with sooner rather than later, let me know and i'll prioritise them)
# [06:14] <roc> there's some sort of generic magic that says spec-algorithms happen atomically?
# [06:14] <Hixie> probably not, i might have to add some text to the html5 spec once the dom events spec is updated to give me a hook to hold onto
# [06:15] <roc> exciting
# [06:15] <Hixie> i haven't really looked at how mutation events affect html5
# [06:15] <roc> even more exciting
# [06:17] <roc> it's not super urgent but implementors will have to make decisions about these things ... indeed, already have
# [06:17] <Hixie> same applies to most of the feedback the spec has :-)
# [06:18] <roc> it's reasonable to hope that we can change mutation event behaviour later without breaking things
# [06:19] <Hixie> yeah
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# [10:32] <Philip`> "With multicore CPUs becoming prevalent, ..." - that's not going to make much sense towards the end of the expected lifespan of HTML5
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# [11:41] <Philip`> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/User:SmithP and http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/User_talk:SmithP look like spam
# [11:41] <Philip`> as does http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/User_talk:Flower
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# [15:44] <annevk> so with seamless <iframe> stuff does html:root match only the outermost <html> or also the one inside the <iframe>?
# [15:44] <annevk> it would be nice if it only matched the outermost <html>
# [15:45] <annevk> at least for the purpose of style sheets that would "go in" the <iframe>
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# [16:02] <zcorpan> annevk: it would match both
# [16:02] <jgraham> FWIW the people on reddit have a reasonable point
# [16:06] <Lachy> the comments on reddit are getting more and more ridiculous. AFACT, complaints seem to be based on the use of curly braces being somewhat ugly.
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# [16:08] <hsivonen> Lachy: they *are* ugly in UAs that don't hide them
# [16:09] <Philip`> It's not the braces that are ugly, it's the embedding of one syntax into another syntax
# [16:09] <Philip`> (as I understand it)
# [16:09] <Philip`> particularly since that means tools that work on the outer syntax (e.g. CSS selectors) won't understand the new inner syntax
# [16:14] <zcorpan> img[alt^="{"][alt$="}"] { ... }
# [16:14] <Lachy> hsivonen, yes, I know. I didn't say they weren't :-)
# [16:15] <Philip`> and particularly since the normal alt syntax (freeform text) and the new improper-alt alt syntax (freeform text surrounded by braces) overlap, which means if e.g. you have a UI for entering image alt text, and then someone types in "{Google Inc}", you don't really know what to do with it
# [16:16] <Lachy> Philip`, the use of {...} in existing alt attributes turned out to be very low
# [16:17] <zcorpan> i guess you could insert a zero-width space before or after
# [16:17] <Lachy> so the chances that someone would want the alt to be {Google Inc} and want it to be legitimate alt text is slim.
# [16:17] <hsivonen> Lachy: it's still something people should program an if case for if they are thorough
# [16:17] <Philip`> Lachy: Conscientious developers will want to handle whatever input they're given in a sensible way, and not just assume that it doesn't matter if things get messed up in a small fraction of cases
# [16:20] <Lachy> I don't understand. Why would authoring tools want to handle {...} differently from others anyway, other than automatically generating one like that if the author provides nothing.
# [16:20] <jgraham> Lachy: Authoring tools should flag alt={...} as an error
# [16:21] <Lachy> hmm, maybe a warning
# [16:21] <jgraham> In something like Dreamweaver it is an error surely
# [16:22] <Lachy> not necessarily. People use dreamweaver to write templates, which are later incoporated into other backend systems all the time. So the image they use in dreamweaver may just be a placeholder for user generated content
# [16:22] <Philip`> If you're writing a LaTeX-to-HTML converter that converts equations into images and puts the LaTeX source in the alt attribute, then it's quite possible that the equation would be surrounded by {...}, and you wouldn't want that to be misinterpreted as meaning the alt text wasn't equivalent to the image
# [16:23] <Lachy> would latex markup really be an appropriate alternate text?
# [16:23] <jgraham> Lachy: That's another reason to dislike {} because AIUI that is quite a common syntax for templating
# [16:23] <jgraham> Lachy: Yes
# [16:23] <Lachy> why?
# [16:24] <Lachy> we have mathml now
# [16:24] <jgraham> Because if you have an image of an equation then many people will either be able to read the LaTeX directly or find a tool to render it
# [16:24] <Philip`> We can't use MathML now
# [16:25] <jgraham> (I agreew MathML is the "right" solution though)
# [16:25] <Philip`> and even if we could, it's more reliable to use a LaTeX-to-PNG renderer than to use a LaTeX-to-MathML converter and then hope the user has the right browser and fonts
# [16:25] <Lachy> templating languages like JSP use ${foo}
# [16:26] <Philip`> so it'll still be an issue for the next decade or so, and in that period we want the equation-images to have the best possible alt text, which in this case is the LaTeX source because the converter doesn't have access to anything better
# [16:26] <Lachy> what does wikipedia use as alt text when it renders math as images?
# [16:27] <Philip`> <img class="tex" alt="\left(\beta mc^2 + \sum_{k = 1}^3 \alpha_k p_k \, c\right) \psi (\mathbf{x},t) = i \hbar \frac{\partial\psi}{\partial t}(\mathbf{x},t) " src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/b/9/0/b90f28f1bb825692930ce71234d02a84.png" />
# [16:27] <jgraham> Philip` is too fast for me :)
# [16:27] <Lachy> so that doesn't surround the value with {...}
# [16:28] <Lachy> are there any cases where it would?
# [16:28] <jgraham> Lachy: I think so
# [16:28] <jgraham> (certianly you could)
# [16:29] <Lachy> well, are there any more appropriate alternative characters that could be used?
# [16:29] <jcranmer> I must ask, what equation is that for?
# [16:30] <jgraham> jcranmer: It's the schrodinger equation isn't it?
# [16:30] * jgraham is just reading the LaTeX
# [16:30] <jgraham> (or something like that)
# [16:30] <Philip`> <math>{x \over y}</math> gives <img class="tex" alt="{x \over y}" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/9/0/8/908124d354754d7eb6ee962b21e1b288.png" />
# [16:30] <Philip`> and that's a fairly plausible input
# [16:30] <jcranmer> not in a format that I recognize quickly
# [16:30] <Philip`> I don't think the braces are ever necessary, but there's usually no reason to not use them
# [16:31] <Philip`> It's The Dirac equation in the form originally proposed by Dirac, obviously :-p
# [16:31] <jgraham> Philip`: I wonder if they would be necessary with tensors where you can have raised or lowered indicies out the front
# [16:32] <Philip`> The Dirac equation is superficially similar to the Schrödinger equation for a free particle:, so that's an easy mistake to make
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# [16:32] * jcranmer points out that he hasn't passed diffeq
# [16:32] <jcranmer> and we didn't even get to PDEs...
# [16:33] <jgraham> Well I noticed the mc^2 term, thought oh relatvistic QM, but didn't join the dots...
# [16:34] <Philip`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity
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# [16:34] <Philip`> Oops
# [16:34] <Philip`> That doesn't end in }
# [16:34] <Philip`> but it starts in one, so that's halfway there
# [16:35] <Philip`> If you had "{x^y}^z = x^{y^z}" then that's of the form "{...}"
# [16:35] <Philip`> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carr%C3%A9_magique_%28math%C3%A9matiques%29
# [16:35] <Philip`> {n(n^2+1) \over 2}
# [16:35] <Philip`> Aha, that's one
# [16:38] <Lachy> ok. So are false positives like that really going to cause any major problems? Since the UA is required to expose the value anyway, and arguably, latex markup isn't really a great alternative text
# [16:39] <hsivonen> Lachy: it seems that it's the best format for blind readers that you can stick into an attribute
# [16:39] <hsivonen> (for blind readers who do math)
# [16:40] <Philip`> They are going to cause problems for developers who don't want to cause minor problems, and therefore have to implement some nasty hack (like adding a space to the value) to make sure their output is not conflicting with HTML5's special markers, and who lose trust in the development of HTML since it's introducing new unobvious issues like this that never existed
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# [16:41] <Philip`> (and so they can't tell whether HTML6 is going to introduce more special markers that break even more of their tools)
# [16:43] <hsivonen> I don't like {}, but I'm too tired to bikeshed it before the accessibility experts do
# [16:44] <jgraham> I think Philip` is right. As far as I can tell adding random microsyntaxes to existing attributes has demonstratable problems whereas adding a new attribute only has hypothetical problems
# [16:45] <annevk> I don't really like {} either
# [16:48] <annevk> on the other hand, it's easy enough for me to add alt={photo} to things
# [16:51] <Philip`> hsivonen: {...} vs [...] vs (...) vs _... etc would be somewhat like complaining about the colour of the bikeshed, but complaining about the basic concept of introducing some special internal syntax is more like complaining that the bikeshed has a halon fire suppression system and have to be careful to not accidentally set it off while you're in there, which is a more worthwhile complaint
# [16:54] <zcorpan> i think it should be ^...^
# [16:56] <zcorpan> alt="{:-{)}"
# [16:56] <zcorpan> smiley for Mustache and Beard
# [16:57] <Philip`> Use an attribute named ":-(" to indicate that the author is unhappy because they can't provide good alt text, so you'd write <img src=947618120746.jpg alt=Photo :-( >
# [16:58] <zcorpan> who'll summarize all these problems and send to the list?
# [16:58] * zcorpan doesn't volunteer, has to work on video
# [17:01] * Philip` was going to just send email complaining how overloading syntax that breaks a small fraction of content still breaks all tools that might possibly deal with that content
# [17:09] * Lachy will write the mail, if no-one else is
# [17:10] * Philip` will send his one soon, but has probably forgotten most of the points that were discussed
# [17:12] <Lachy> Philip`, ok. then I don't have to.
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# [17:43] <takkaria> hsivonen: yeah, the script could be public... it's a makefile
# [17:51] <takkaria> someone couldn't help me out by telling me why the document "<meta charset='utf-16le'>" should be detected as windows-1251 according to the html5 spec?
# [17:52] <takkaria> oh, sorry, I'm getting my testcases mixed up
# [17:53] <annevk> utf-16 in <meta> means utf-8
# [17:53] <annevk> not sure about utf16le
# [17:54] <jmb> annevk: I'd expect it to be the same, seeing as it uses an ASCII-only algorithm to determine what it is
# [17:59] <zcorpan> "If charset is a UTF-16 encoding, change it to UTF-8."
# [18:00] <annevk> we need to change the charset stuff into some fixed list someday
# [18:00] <annevk> UAs MUST support utf8, utf16, windows1252, ...
# [18:00] <annevk> (writing them in their short form for no apparent reason)
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# [18:48] <Philip`> It's quite weird to read something that says "The most common Internet user protocols are: - Telnet (remote login) - FTP (file transfer) - SMTP (electronic mail delivery)" and doesn't mention HTTP at all
# [18:49] <gDashiva> I use telnet all the time to connect to my router
# [18:52] <Lachy> gDashiva, what do you connect to your router with telnet for?
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# [18:54] <Philip`> (This document is from 1995 but it's based on one from 1994 which sounds like it's based on work from 1991, which I guess is why HTTP wasn't considered important)
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# [19:02] <gDashiva> Lachy: To use the CLI
# [19:03] <Lachy> what for though? To configure the router or something?
# [19:03] <gDashiva> Yes
# [19:03] <Lachy> doesn't it have a GUI interface or web interface for that?
# [19:03] <Philip`> My router supports SSH too
# [19:03] <Philip`> (Unfortunately it doesn't support routing to IP addresses ending in .0)
# [19:04] <Philip`> *SSH to access the CLI
# [19:05] <gDashiva> Lachy: A really slow and horrible one (sometimes with JS errors for extra fun), and it doesn't support all the features
# [19:05] <gDashiva> And that very web interface needs to be disabled for my web server anyhow
# [19:05] <gDashiva> Otherwise it eats all the http requests :)
# [19:08] <Lachy> gDashiva, how would it, if the URL is pointing to an IP address of another machine on the network?
# [19:08] <Lachy> I assume the router wouldn't try to respond to external HTTP requests though?
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# [19:09] <gDashiva> You speak as if there's more than one IP address involved.
# [19:09] <Philip`> Are you running the web server on the router?
# [19:10] <gDashiva> No, I'm disabling the web server on the router.
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# [19:10] <Philip`> Surely you could just tell the router to redirect external connections to port 80 onto any internal IP with any port, and configure the web server accordingly, and then 192.168.0.1:80 would still be the router configuration interface
# [19:11] <gDashiva> Sure, if it was a sensible router
# [19:12] <gDashiva> As it is, it took me a lot of magic just to make it resolve internal requests to the external IP properly
# [19:13] <Philip`> Hmm, I just add "192.168.0.123 mydomain.co.uk" to /etc/hosts and comment out that line whenever I move outside the LAN
# [19:14] <Lachy> gDashiva, I don't understand how you've got it set up, or under which conditions it intercepts HTTP requests
# [19:15] <gDashiva> Lachy: There's a router with the only public IP, and several machines behind the router. Pretty standard setup, isn't it?
# [19:16] <Lachy> ok, sure. But which side of the router to HTTP requests need to come from to get intercepted by it?
# [19:16] <gDashiva> Which side doesn't matter, and it serves on both its internal IP and the external IP
# [19:17] <Lachy> so you have a web server running on a computer in your local network?
# [19:17] <gDashiva> Yes
# [19:17] <Philip`> Why not connect to computer in your local network using its local IP?
# [19:17] <Philip`> s//the/
# [19:18] <gDashiva> Because that hides all kinds of things that could be wrong for external access
# [19:19] <gDashiva> Like the always-enjoyable event where the network decides it wants to die just long enough for the dhcp lease to expire, prompting a new external IP
# [19:19] <Lachy> so if your router local IP is 10.0.0.1 and your web server's local IP is 10.0.0.2, and you want to connect to the web server from any other local machine, why doesn't http://10.0.0.2/ work without disabling the router's web interface?
# [19:19] <Philip`> Hmm, fun
# [19:19] <gDashiva> Lachy: It works, but see above
# [19:20] * Lachy *confused*
# [19:20] <Lachy> I have roughly the same setup. But I just can't see how a router would interfere with that under any circumstances
# [19:21] <gDashiva> If I access via 10.0.0.2 I won't notice that the domain name no longer points to the right IP, or that the router has started eating random packets, or that I messed up the vhost config and it only responds to 10.0.0.2 now, etc
# [19:21] <Philip`> You could set up a monitoring service running on an external machine
# [19:22] <Lachy> oh, so you want to be able to access your local web server via http://[your-external-ip]/ ?
# [19:22] <gDashiva> Lachy: Well, usually with a bounce via DNS before the IP, but yes :)
# [19:23] <Lachy> ok, so you're using a dynamic DNS service to provide a domain name? That makes a little more sense. But I still don't get why the router would ever intercept the requests at all, if you'd set up port forwarding in it.
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# [19:24] <gDashiva> Because it sees "Hey, port 80, I do stuff with that" before it starts forwarding
# [19:24] <Philip`> Can you configure it to use a different port?
# [19:24] <Lachy> would the router ever respond with the web interface to an external request, if it were enabled?
# [19:24] <Philip`> Can you open the firmware in a hex editor and hack it to use a different port?
# [19:25] <gDashiva> Lachy: That's disabled by default, but it's possible
# [19:25] <gDashiva> Philip`: Probably. Or I could just disable it and have it working.
# [19:25] <Lachy> ok. what kind of router is it?
# [19:25] <Lachy> (just so I know to avoid that POS in the future)
# [19:25] <Philip`> gDashiva: That's no fun
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# [19:26] <gDashiva> I don't recall. Probably a speedtouch.
# [19:26] <Philip`> You could open its web interface to see where it says the model nu... oh, wait
# [19:27] <gDashiva> Philip`: I could VNC home and telnet from there, but I won't :)
# [19:27] <Philip`> (Mine is called "ADSL Router", and there's no other visible identification anywhere)
# [19:27] <gDashiva> But speaking of home, it's time for going there
# [19:27] <Lachy> gDashiva, if you enable the web interface, there's probably some information about that in there somewhere
# [19:27] <gDashiva> Lachy: Hah
# [19:28] <gDashiva> Information would risk being useful
# [19:29] <gDashiva> The port forwarding setup is a perfect example. Seven input boxes with names like "trigger port" and "port range"
# [19:29] <Lachy> so what commands does it support via CLI? Is it some sort of linux based thing, or some proprietary thing?
# [19:30] <gDashiva> It's a tree-based command system
# [19:30] * Lachy googles that
# [19:30] <Philip`> Aha, apparently my router uses an ATMOS CLI
# [19:30] <gDashiva> Like, you can do service; host; add name=httpd; or you can do :service host add name=httpd
# [19:31] <Lachy> was there some documentation for that provided with the router?
# [19:31] <Philip`> (which leads to obvious jokes about Sontarans and suchlike)
# [19:31] <gDashiva> Of course not. The ISP has some very basic FAQs with some images, but that's all.
# [19:31] <Lachy> ok, so you basically figured most of it out yourself?
# [19:32] <Lachy> I have an old belkin ADSL router that I'm not using any more. I wonder if it supported any CLI
# [19:32] <gDashiva> Lots of guessing based on command names, lots of help and some googling
# [19:32] <gDashiva> The CLI manual is out there
# [19:32] <gDashiva> But it only specifies the parameters to each command, not what the command actually does
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# [21:53] <Hixie> Philip`: i would imagine a latex replacement text would sound horrific with a screen reader
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# [21:55] <webben> Hixie: Dunno about that. blindmathers seem to use latex; I suspect they're used to what it sounds like; just like blind programmers are used to what code sounds like.
# [21:55] <webben> not great for people new to math though!
# [21:55] <webben> or ideal for anyone
# [21:57] <hsivonen> does T.V. Raman's LaTeX to voice software integrate with any browser? Emacs W3 perhaps?
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# [21:59] <Philip`> Hixie: alt text isn't just for blind people
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# [22:00] <Hixie> no but it has to be appropriate for all the people it is for, including the blind people
# [22:00] <Philip`> and it seems likely anyone who cares about maths would understand LaTeX in preference to any other encoding of equations
# [22:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: afaict, there's no such alt format for all people
# [22:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: what Philip` said
# [22:01] <Hixie> i replied to the e-mail
# [22:01] <gsnedders> What about my French relatives?
# [22:01] <Hixie> providing more suitable alternative text
# [22:02] <webben> problem is, as I said, "anyone who cares about maths" is not the only target for maths in markup
# [22:02] <webben> also schoolkids, for instance, who might distinctly not care about maths ;)
# [22:03] <gsnedders> Maths… eww.
# [22:03] <gsnedders> :P
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# [22:52] <Philip`> Hmph, I was going to reply to the email but everyone else beat me to it :-(
# [22:53] <Philip`> "(a \oplus b) \oplus c = a \oplus (b \oplus c)" is something I might write, and I don't see any way to encode it in words that is easier for anyone and isn't far more confusing for a user who might just have a graphical browser with images turned off
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# [22:54] <Philip`> (particularly since the target audience for documents written using LaTeX syntax is usually people familiar with maths and hence with LaTeX)
# [22:54] <hsivonen> xml-dev gets mirrored in crazy many places. I post there and get multiple entries in my vanity feeds
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# [23:04] <Hixie> Philip`: i have no idea what that even means, which is for me pretty good evidence that latex is terrible alt text :-)
# [23:05] <Hixie> but in any case
# [23:05] <Hixie> i don't especially like the {...} thing either
# [23:05] <Philip`> Hixie: It's evidence that you're not the target audience for such things :-)
# [23:05] <Hixie> but right now i know of nothing better
# [23:05] <Hixie> Philip`: i read wikipedia math pages
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# [23:18] <Lachy> Hixie, if the {...} syntax doesn't work out, you could try the kind="..." attribute I suggested in here quite a while ago
# [23:18] <Hixie> a separate attribute has two problems
# [23:18] <Hixie> 1. it doesn't make alt="" required
# [23:18] <Hixie> 2. it doesn't have a good fallback story
# [23:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: it seems to be that a boolean attribute behave-as-if-there-where-braces="" addresses both issues
# [23:20] <jgraham> Hixie: 1 isn't a good reason for anything per-se
# [23:20] <Lachy> ok, to address #2, we would need a value in either the alt or title attributes
# [23:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: if now alt="{}" is ok, why wouldn't alt="" behave-as-if-there-where-braces="" be as good?
# [23:20] <jgraham> I think what hsivonen says makes sense
# [23:20] <Hixie> hsivonen: nobody has come up with a good name for such an attribute
# [23:21] <Hixie> (that was what i initially proposed)
# [23:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: also, the fallback story with behave-as-if-there-where-braces="" is even better (no brace clutter)
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# [23:21] <hsivonen> alt-is-type=''
# [23:21] <Hixie> hsivonen: the brace clutter is a good thing
# [23:21] <jgraham> alt-autogenerated
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# [23:21] <hsivonen> alt-is-not-alt
# [23:21] <Hixie> like i said
# [23:21] <Hixie> nobody has come up with a good name for such an attribute
# [23:22] <jgraham> Hixie: It seems like a bad reason to reject it in favour of a solution with more substantial problems
# [23:22] <Dashiva> alternate alternate text is a mess no matter how you put it :)
# [23:22] <Hixie> if we come up with a bad name like those, or any that i have proposed, we'll just have people copy that attribute all over the place thinking it's the cool new thing
# [23:22] <Hixie> jgraham: i'm not at all convinced that {} has more problems
# [23:22] <Hixie> jgraham: the only problem i'm aware of is the latex thing, and i don't even agree that that is valid alt text
# [23:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: why wouldn't some people think braces are the new black?
# [23:22] <jgraham> Hixie: It breaks wikipedia (for some value of breaks)
# [23:23] <Hixie> jgraham: wikipedia is already broken for all those cases
# [23:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: there's also the collision problem Philip` pointed out
# [23:23] <Hixie> hsivonen: because they wouldn't recognise them as anything special, they'd just think that was what the author happened to use -- it doesn't look like syntax
# [23:23] <jgraham> Hixie: I disagree. I think LaTeX is the best fallback for maths content
# [23:23] <Hixie> collision problem?
# [23:23] <hsivonen> if I have a text field for alt, I need to write code that does *something* if the user enters a { as the first character
# [23:23] <Hixie> jgraham: I disagree. I think it's horrible. :-)
# [23:24] <jgraham> I also think that alt-autogenerated makes it look uncool
# [23:24] <Hixie> hsivonen: why?
# [23:24] <Hixie> jgraham: that name is a lie
# [23:24] <jgraham> Hixie: I would be interested to hear the opinion of an AT-dependant maths user
# [23:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: because that's how careful developers think
# [23:25] <jgraham> Hixie: why is the name a lie
# [23:25] <hsivonen> alt-unspecific
# [23:25] <Hixie> jgraham: because it might not be autogenerated, and even if it was, it might not be appropriate to set the attribute
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# [23:26] <hsivonen> alt-quality=low
# [23:26] <Lachy> hsivonen, would there be an alt-quality=high?
# [23:26] <hsivonen> alt-type=category
# [23:26] <hsivonen> Lachy: there could be
# [23:27] <jgraham> no-text-equivalent
# [23:27] <Lachy> then it becomes too subjective. Some authors will think their alt text is high quality, even if it's actually quite low (or vice versa)
# [23:27] <Dashiva> jgraham: That's just no-alt with longer text :)
# [23:28] <jgraham> (it doesn't really matter if the attribute has a long name since the typical case is automated systems not hand editing)
# [23:28] <jgraham> Dashiva: I think it makes more sense than <img alt noalt>
# [23:42] <clotman> Is the Web Forms 2.0 draft still being updated?
# [23:45] <Lachy> clotman, it will be integrated into HTML5 soon
# [23:45] <clotman> thanks for the info
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# Session Close: Fri Aug 08 00:00:00 2008

The end :)