/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-08-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Aug 10 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:18] <jcranmer> how does the W3C moderation system work? First post is sent to moderator, and, if accepted, all subsequent posts go through?
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  10. # [01:06] <Lachy> jcranmer, no. For their first post, they're sent a confirmation email asking them to manually agree for it and all subsequent mails to be archived. They probably have some sort of spam filter in place too. They do have list moderators, but most things are automated
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  15. # [01:41] <Hixie> the arguments saying that latex is more useful than anything else are realy arguing that it isn't alternative text but is better than the image itself
  16. # [01:49] <Lachy> Hixie, I don't think so.
  17. # [01:51] <jcranmer> I think they're working along the lines that "anyone who knows anything more complex than exponentiation knows (La)TeX", something which seems dubious to me
  18. # [01:52] <jcranmer> ideally, it could be read aloud, but conveying
  19. # [01:54] <jcranmer> \lim_{n \to \inf} \left[ \sum_{k=0}^\inf \frac{n^k}{\left(k+1\right)^{k+1}} \right]^{\frac{1}{n}}
  20. # [01:54] <jcranmer> is probably not fun
  21. # [01:55] <jcranmer> "The limit as n goes to infinity of the sum from k equals 0 to infinity of n to the k over k plus 1 to the k + 1 power all to the 1 over n power"
  22. # [02:02] <Lachy> both of those are complicated. That latter is even a little ambiguous in some parts
  23. # [02:04] <Lachy> e.g. does "k plus 1 to the k + 1 power" mean: k + 1^(k+1) or (k + 1)^(k+1)
  24. # [02:05] <jcranmer> that's the problem with spoken stuff: it's hard to get parenthetics rights
  25. # [02:05] <Hixie> if i was reading those, the former would be "k plus one to the k plus oneth power", the latter would be "k plus one, all raised to the k plus oneth power".
  26. # [02:06] <Hixie> jcranmer: that's a problem with english, not just spoken word
  27. # [02:06] <Lachy> so we should all start speaking in TeX instead :-)
  28. # [02:07] <jgraham> FWIW T.V. Ramen's LaTeX->speech translator is supposed to set the inonation and pauses to effectively convey the meaning. You can't do that with pure english
  29. # [02:07] <Hixie> those could also be read as "k plus one to the open bracket k plus one close bracket" and "open breack k plus one close breacket to the open breack k plus one close bracket"
  30. # [02:07] <Hixie> wow i can't spell bracket
  31. # [02:07] <Hixie> wtf
  32. # [02:07] <jgraham> s/inonation/intonation/
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  34. # [02:08] <jgraham> s/pure english/pure english conveyed as ascii text/
  35. # [02:08] <Hixie> you know, if the fallback is going to be some format language, maybe <object data=eq.png><object data=eq.latex>...</object></object> is a better solution
  36. # [02:08] <Lachy> you can't spell "break" either (unless you meant bracket there too)
  37. # [02:09] <Hixie> i meant bracket each time
  38. # [02:09] <Lachy> ok
  39. # [02:09] <Hixie> i really can't type it apparently :-)
  40. # [02:09] <jcranmer> :-)
  41. # [02:09] <jcranmer> +1 on the nesting object idea
  42. # [02:10] <jgraham> I don't see why this is a big problem. Latex is an ascii (or at least text-based) equivalent of a formula. When that formula is contained in an image the LaTeX is therefore an equivalent of that image
  43. # [02:10] <Lachy> why don't we just add a way to use latex natively in HTML?
  44. # [02:11] <jgraham> Lachy: Because that would be a big mess
  45. # [02:11] <jcranmer> I thought that was called MathML? ;-)
  46. # [02:11] * jcranmer knows the two aren't really alike
  47. # [02:11] <Hixie> hat jcranmer said
  48. # [02:11] <jgraham> However I already suggested that we add a TeX-like syntax that maps to MathML
  49. # [02:11] <Hixie> mathml is our solution for math
  50. # [02:11] <Lachy> most mathematicians seem to use latex though anyway
  51. # [02:11] <Hixie> we already have a syntax
  52. # [02:11] <jgraham> Hixie rejected it
  53. # [02:12] <jgraham> Lachy: This is because TeX doesn't suck and MathML does
  54. # [02:12] <jcranmer> Lachy: there are numerous LaTeX->MathML converters
  55. # [02:12] <jgraham> (well and also because TeX has meaningful deployment)
  56. # [02:12] <jcranmer> and numerous MathML->TeX converters
  57. # [02:12] <Lachy> so why was mathml created in the first place, instead of just defining how to add latex to HTML and other XML languages?
  58. # [02:13] <jgraham> jcranmer: There are numerous (*subset of* LaTeX)->(MathML) convertors
  59. # [02:13] <jcranmer> I presume if you stick a lot of \kern + co in there, it might not translate
  60. # [02:14] <jgraham> Lachy: Well you should ask David Carslile (sp?) but I think a) people wanted to get rid of some TeX warts b) people thought they needed semantics c) XML is cool
  61. # [02:15] <jgraham> jcranmer: Or anything that relies on something you \def yourself
  62. # [02:15] <jcranmer> jgraham: a smart converter should be able to de-macro \def's
  63. # [02:16] <jgraham> jcranmer: By "smart convertor" you mean one that actually runs the TeX right?
  64. # [02:17] <jcranmer> that is ideal
  65. # [02:18] <jgraham> I think you would still have some difficulty because to do a good job at creating MathML you need to retain some element of what the user typed
  66. # [02:18] <jgraham> (to have a shot at the semantics)
  67. # [02:20] <jgraham> even then getting things like operator vs identifier right is hard
  68. # [02:21] <jgraham> it seems much more sensible to define a reduced subset of LaTeX that maps well onto MathML in the same way PDF is a subset of postscript
  69. # [02:30] <jcranmer> quick, OT question: if you were to create a utility that reposts spamified messages from a newsgroup of certain users, would you expect that the tools you use are able to properly support =?utf-8?Q?...?= in MIME headers?
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  110. # [11:16] <hsivonen> hmm. people want a category for markp's posts as if there were too many others posts to clutter their feed readers
  111. # [11:37] <Lachy> hsivonen, yeah, I thought it was a bit odd too. But it's not hard to do
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  115. # [13:27] <Lachy> Hixie, I contest your claim that "the main characters [or Stargate] aren't immortal". IIRC, Daniel has died 4 times, Jack, Carter and Teal'c have died once, and yet each time they have been resurrected. And this doesn't include alternate realities and timelines. :-)
  116. # [13:28] <Lachy> s/[or/[of/
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  126. # [15:22] <jacobolus> hsivonen, Lachy: you could alternately make a thing at Yahoo Pipes that filters out posts other than MarkP's
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  128. # [15:38] <jacobolus> e.g. http://pipes.yahoo.com/pipes/pipe.run?_id=47fd026d4015483a48d8cd5656c0636e&_render=rss
  129. # [15:45] <jacobolus> better: http://pipes.yahoo.com/jrus/this_week_in_html5?_render=rss
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  137. # [17:40] * hsivonen guesses that someone will implement a pure-JS DOM for Web Worker XHR
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  144. # [18:04] <jgraham> hsivonen: On the podcast thing he id recently John Reisig was talking about something like having access to insulated DOM-fragments in workers and a browser-level protocol for passing those fragments through channels to the main thread
  145. # [18:04] <jgraham> Sorry too many i's in Resig there...
  146. # [18:05] <takkaria> jgraham: there's some code to bind hubbub to libxml2 now; I don't know quite how much use that will be to you, but thought you would be interested
  147. # [18:08] <Lachy> jacobolus, what rules did you use to make that?
  148. # [18:09] <Lachy> jacobolus, btw, I suspect making a category would be easier. I just need to know what to call it
  149. # [18:09] <jgraham> takkaria: That sounds awesome. I will have a look when I have a spare moment (which may not be for some time...)
  150. # [18:10] <takkaria> jgraham: when you do have a spare moment, give me a yell. I'll try and sort it out so the code is somewhere public before then. :)
  151. # [18:12] <Lachy> jacobolus, I found the yahoo pipe source. Filtering on the name is only reliable if markp is the only one who ever writes them
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  155. # [19:48] <jacobolus> Lachy: it could be filtered on anything else, if you like, even on a regexp or something
  156. # [19:48] <jacobolus> Lachy: but you're right that a category would be easiest—I just don't have control over that :)
  157. # [20:02] <Lachy> jacobolus, I do. I just need to know what to call the category
  158. # [20:03] <Lachy> any suggestions? maybe weekly-review
  159. # [20:03] <jacobolus> recent-highlights?
  160. # [20:03] <jacobolus> weekly-review sounds fine
  161. # [20:03] <jacobolus> if you can actually keep it weekly ;)
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  167. # [21:28] <hsivonen> zcorpan: Mail::Mailer brokenness fixed. thanks.
  168. # [21:47] <hsivonen> oops Mail::Mailer still broken. sigh.
  169. # [21:56] <hsivonen> where might CPAN break stuff? I remove perl stuff from under /usr/local, but Mail::Mailer still fails due to a tainted variable in the -T mode
  170. # [21:56] <hsivonen> and the Mail::Mailer should be provided by Ubuntu
  171. # [21:56] <hsivonen> hmm
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  174. # [22:16] <Hixie> Lachy: ford.
  175. # [22:17] <Hixie> Lachy: also, they can't very well be immortal if they died!
  176. # [22:17] * hsivonen regrets invoking CPAN
  177. # [22:18] <hsivonen> I have no idea how to debug why a variable is tainted in Bugzilla after CPAN has done something
  178. # [22:20] <Hixie> wow, smylers' e-mail was pretty much spot on as far as my current thinking is concerned :-)
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  180. # [22:22] <Lachy> Hixie, what do you mean by ford?
  181. # [22:22] <Hixie> he died.
  182. # [22:23] <Hixie> well, one assumes he died, anyway.
  183. # [22:23] <Lachy> oh
  184. # [22:23] <Hixie> one minute he was on a ship, then next minute the ship was in a bazillion pieces, and we never heard from him again.
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  189. # [22:44] <annevk> Lachy, I think the blog should have tags
  190. # [22:44] <annevk> Lachy, and we should get rid of the categories
  191. # [22:49] <Lachy> annevk, tags are already supported. We just need to expose them in the template
  192. # [22:50] <annevk> with "the blog should have tags" I mean that existing entries should have tags added and that they (obviously) should be exposed through the Web interface :)
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  194. # [22:51] <annevk> then we can just make up some weird tag for markp's stuff and people can rejoice
  195. # [22:51] <annevk> (though given the low amount of posts I wonder why they just want to follow those, especially given only one appeared so far)
  196. # [22:52] <Hixie> does outerHTML have any stupid quirks anyone knows about?
  197. # [22:52] <annevk> in two out of three browsers supporting it stuff is in uppercase?
  198. # [22:53] <annevk> (not sure about WebKit)
  199. # [22:53] <Hixie> i meant for setting more than getting
  200. # [22:55] <Hixie> though thanks for the getting info
  201. # [23:02] * hsivonen feels powerless in face of perl -T
  202. # [23:03] <Hixie> do you need to untaint something forcibly?
  203. # [23:03] <Hixie> or are you trying to work out where the taint started, so you can stop that?
  204. # [23:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: the latter
  205. # [23:04] <hsivonen> specifically, if my bugzilla installation worked before touching cpan, why does it stay broken after I delete all perl stuff under /usr/local ?
  206. # [23:05] <hsivonen> now every time Bugzilla tries to send email, the message is considered tainted when it's passed to exec for sendmail
  207. # [23:05] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-ac34c7d654722ea1) (Remote closed the connection)
  208. # [23:05] <Hixie> can you work out which part of the message gets considered tainted?
  209. # [23:05] <Hixie> then again, that sounds about right, i mean, that data is coming from the database right?
  210. # [23:05] <Hixie> so it should be tainted
  211. # [23:05] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-bb4066c0958a66e1)
  212. # [23:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't know how to work it out with reasonable effort.
  213. # [23:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: sure, but presumably before I touched cpan, something untainted the message properly
  214. # [23:08] <Hixie> what version are you on?
  215. # [23:08] <hsivonen> 2.22.1-debian2, so I can't get help from bugzilla hackers
  216. # [23:09] <Hixie> and what's the error message exactly?
  217. # [23:09] <hsivonen> undef error - Insecure dependency in exec while running with -T switch at /usr/share/perl5/Mail/Mailer/sendmail.pm line 22.
  218. # [23:09] <hsivonen> line 22 is exec( $exe, '-t', @$args );
  219. # [23:10] <hsivonen> and I already checked that $exe is not the problem
  220. # [23:10] <hsivonen> so something in $args is tainted
  221. # [23:11] <Hixie> are you sure $ENV{PATH} is cleared?
  222. # [23:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm not. How do I find out?
  223. # [23:11] <Hixie> stick $ENV{PATH} = ''; somewhere before the exec call
  224. # [23:11] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote closed the connection)
  225. # [23:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: that doesn't solve the problem
  226. # [23:14] <Hixie> ok just before the exec() call try this:
  227. # [23:15] <Hixie> use Scalar::Util; warn("exe:" . tainted($exe) . "; args: " . tainted("@$args"));
  228. # [23:15] <Hixie> see if either of those returns true
  229. # [23:16] <hsivonen> where do the warnings end up?
  230. # [23:16] <Hixie> (if you're on an old perl (pre 5.8) you can define sub tainted() { return ! eval { eval("#" . substr(join("", @_), 0, 0)); 1 } } )
  231. # [23:16] <Hixie> stderr
  232. # [23:16] <Hixie> apache error log probably
  233. # [23:16] <Hixie> failing that, print it to some known location
  234. # [23:17] <Hixie> it should go to the same place as you see the insecure dependency message
  235. # [23:19] <hsivonen> undef error - Undefined subroutine &Mail::Mailer::sendmail::tainted called at /usr/share/perl5/Mail/Mailer/sendmail.pm line 23.
  236. # [23:19] <hsivonen> and I'm not on old perl
  237. # [23:19] <Hixie> sorry make that use Scalar::Util qw(tainted);
  238. # [23:20] <hsivonen> process_bug.cgi: exe:0; args: 1 at /usr/share/perl5/Mail/Mailer/sendmail.pm line 22.
  239. # [23:21] <Hixie> ok, so $args is being tainted somehow
  240. # [23:22] <Hixie> use Scalar::Util qw(tainted); foreach (@$args) { warn tainted($_) } will tell you which item in $args
  241. # [23:23] <hsivonen> 0 and 1
  242. # [23:23] <hsivonen> wouldn't that be to and from?
  243. # [23:23] <Hixie> no idea
  244. # [23:23] <Hixie> but you can probably look in the code to see
  245. # [23:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks
  246. # [23:24] <Hixie> np
  247. # [23:25] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  248. # [23:27] <zcorpan> is whatever feature we come up with to distinguish images-with-proper-replacement to images without going to be used correctly enough that UAs will do something special with it?
  249. # [23:27] <zcorpan> why can't we just allow alt="photo" and be done with it?
  250. # [23:28] <zcorpan> (though when i think about it, opera does something special with lack of alt -- it shows "Image")
  251. # [23:31] <Hixie> i have no diea
  252. # [23:31] <Hixie> idea
  253. # [23:31] <Hixie> it's somewhat up to the accessibility "experts" at this point
  254. # [23:31] <Hixie> if it isn't implemented, then it'll get dropped at CR
  255. # [23:31] <Hixie> and we'll be back to optional alt
  256. # [23:32] <zcorpan> the old spec text didn't allow the kind of image to be specified as alt
  257. # [23:33] <Hixie> indeed, that would be quite bad for accessibility
  258. # [23:34] <zcorpan> why?
  259. # [23:34] <Hixie> you couldn't distinguish images that were photos from images that represented icons of photos
  260. # [23:34] <Hixie> makes for a pretty confusing ui
  261. # [23:35] <zcorpan> i think you could figure that out based on context
  262. # [23:35] <Hixie> *shrug*
  263. # [23:35] <Hixie> can anyone think of any way to get a hold of any of the nodes that are created in foo.outerHTML = '...' if 'foo' has no parent node?
  264. # [23:36] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  265. # [23:36] <zcorpan> implicit document fragment node? not sure i understand the question
  266. # [23:38] <Hixie> if i do: <script> var d = document.createElement('div'); d.outerHTML = '<form id=a>'; </script> how can i get hold of the form element?
  267. # [23:38] <Hixie> there's no way, right?
  268. # [23:40] * annevk can't say no for certain
  269. # [23:44] <zcorpan> seems so... so outerHTML is basically a no-op in that case
  270. # [23:44] <Hixie> yeah
  271. # [23:44] <Hixie> good
  272. # [23:45] <Hixie> that way i don't have to worry about what its parentNode is to get a context node...
  273. # [23:46] <annevk> in opera if you do d.outerHTML afterwards it says "<form id=a>"
  274. # [23:46] * annevk has no idea what that means
  275. # [23:46] <Hixie> lol
  276. # [23:46] <Hixie> that's funny
  277. # [23:47] <annevk> (it also says d is an HTMLDivElement object)
  278. # [23:47] <Hixie> maybe it's setting the actual JS property and not the DOM attribute
  279. # [23:47] <Hixie> try setting it to something that's not HTML syntax
  280. # [23:47] <Hixie> and see if it fixes it up
  281. # [23:47] <Hixie> or if it just allowed anything
  282. # [23:47] <Hixie> e.g. <fOrM
  283. # [23:47] <Hixie> does it become <form> ?
  284. # [23:48] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  285. # [23:48] <annevk> no
  286. # [23:48] <annevk> "x" stays "x"
  287. # [23:48] <Hixie> then it's not really outerHTML
  288. # [23:48] <annevk> "<x" stays "<x"
  289. # [23:49] <annevk> setting outerHTML in other cases does work
  290. # [23:49] <annevk> confusing
  291. # [23:49] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-6e8573491c1a72c2)
  292. # [23:50] <zcorpan> in ie it's <DIV></DIV>
  293. # [23:51] <annevk> parentNode == null probably makes browsers invoke special codepaths
  294. # [23:51] <annevk> so outerHTML is going to make it in after all?
  295. # [23:51] <Hixie> everyone except FF implements it
  296. # [23:51] <Hixie> might as well
  297. # [23:52] <Hixie> i'm not doing it for XML though
  298. # [23:52] <annevk> you know you use such arguments the other way around as well, right?
  299. # [23:52] <annevk> :)
  300. # [23:52] * Quits: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  301. # [23:52] <Hixie> depends how hard it is to spec :-P
  302. # [23:53] <Hixie> bigger problem is what to do when the parent is a Document object
  303. # [23:53] <zcorpan> webkit throws when there's no parent it seems
  304. # [23:53] * Joins: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb)
  305. # [23:54] <annevk> per some old testcase here http://tinymce.moxiecode.com/opera/documentelement_outerhtml.htm it should do something
  306. # [23:55] <annevk> maybe the same as document.innerHTML
  307. # [23:55] <Hixie> no, that would blow away comments and doctypes
  308. # [23:55] <zcorpan> webkit and ie throw when parent is document
  309. # [23:55] <Hixie> sounds good to me!
  310. # [23:57] <annevk> zcorpan, they don't show anything in the iframe for that test?
  311. # [23:57] <Hixie> btw html5 has a dependency on xhr now :-)
  312. # [23:58] <Hixie> (well, web workers, technically)
  313. # [23:58] * annevk finds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Hickson
  314. # [23:58] <Hixie> haha sweet, i actually have a wikipedia page now
  315. # [23:59] <Hixie> awww, no controversy in the talk page
  316. # [23:59] <Hixie> how sad
  317. # [23:59] <zcorpan> annevk: right
  318. # Session Close: Mon Aug 11 00:00:00 2008

The end :)