/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-08-13 / end

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  7. # [00:05] <zcorpan> should we expect episode 2 today?
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  18. # [00:34] <Hixie> oh jesus
  19. # [00:34] <Hixie> kristof and garett talking to each other
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  23. # [00:45] <roc> I thought that was part of your clever plan
  24. # [00:47] <Hixie> it does keep them occupied and away from discussing other things
  25. # [00:47] <Hixie> but i'm not sure it's wise
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  40. # [02:44] <Hixie> i accidentally wrote </li> instead of </ol> and the validator said "error fatal: Too many messages" after spewing about one error per paragraph in html5
  41. # [02:44] <Hixie> i may have to admit that the html5 parser's recovery is not necessarily what a validator should try to do
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  88. # [08:03] <heycam> "A person's name is not the title of a work — even if people call that person a piece of work" -- heh
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  94. # [09:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: I found obsolete attributes useful today: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/performance-mistake/
  95. # [09:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: what would have been the right way to do the table cell alignment?
  96. # [09:19] <hsivonen> huh? is the W3C establishing a new *Activity* for EOT?
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  102. # [09:30] <virtuelv> hsivonen: url? (that eot thing)
  103. # [09:30] <hsivonen> virtuelv: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Aug/att-0010/EOT-charter-draft-1.html
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  115. # [10:16] <zcorpan> Hixie: "and required that if two of these attributes are specified (or if all three are specified, in text/html), they have the same value." -- afaict it's not allowed to specify all 3 per the spec
  116. # [10:17] <zcorpan> "Authors must not use the xml:lang attribute (that is, the lang attribute with the xml prefix in the http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace namespace) in HTML documents."
  117. # [10:18] <hsivonen> xml:lang causes so much trouble
  118. # [10:19] <hsivonen> in retrospect, XML 1.0 should have reserved id, class and lang
  119. # [10:21] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i've came to that conclusion too
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  122. # [10:21] <zcorpan> s/came/come/
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  124. # [10:22] * hsivonen decides to start measuring the performance cost of the HTML5 tree construction layer
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  133. # [11:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: i think we may want to expose charoff on col or td
  134. # [11:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: but there's not much point before UAs have any intention of implementing it
  135. # [11:53] <Hixie> zcorpan: yeah i guess you can't include all three on one element without violating another rule before worrying about the values anyway
  136. # [11:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: how about getting to use align conformingly in the mean time?
  137. # [11:53] <Hixie> what's wrong with the css equivalent?
  138. # [11:54] <Hixie> td + td { text-align: right; }
  139. # [11:55] <Hixie> anyway bed time now
  140. # [12:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: that violates the separation of content and style. I the rules in the style sheet should not have to depend on what number of columns my tables have and which columns have which alignment
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  148. # [13:55] <takkaria> hsivonen: interesting the results you got with your performance changes
  149. # [13:56] <takkaria> hsivonen: because in hubbub, I was briefly toying with having a buffer only when required and switching to it if NULs/CRs/entities were encountered
  150. # [13:57] <takkaria> hsivonen: turns out it added a lot of extra macros, removed clarity, and it ended up easier and about as fast to do unconditional buffer writes
  151. # [13:58] <hsivonen> takkaria: I guess it's comforting that C is like that, too, and this isn't just a Java thing ;-)
  152. # [13:59] <takkaria> I wish I knew x86 well enough to speculate on why it's the case
  153. # [14:00] <hsivonen> today, I measured the perf cost of the HTML5 tree builder compared to an XML-ish tree builder
  154. # [14:00] <hsivonen> I'll blog about that later
  155. # [14:01] <hsivonen> executive summary: the Validator.nu HTML Parser's tokenizer is almost as fast as Xerces without the HTML tree builder complexity
  156. # [14:03] <takkaria> that's pretty speedy
  157. # [14:04] <takkaria> Hubbub's tokeniser tokenises HTML5 in about 0.5s
  158. # [14:04] <takkaria> which is something like 5MB/s
  159. # [14:06] <takkaria> however, libxml tokenises and produces a tree in 0.8s. so there's quite a lot of scope for improvement, or so I hope
  160. # [14:11] <hsivonen> takkaria: do you count IO when benchmarking the tokenizer?
  161. # [14:12] <takkaria> I have some perf tests around which basically mmap() a file into memory and then pass the memory thus mapped to libxml2/hubbub
  162. # [14:13] <takkaria> I guess I could read an entire file properly rather than letting the OS do it, but I don't think it would make that much difference
  163. # [14:14] <takkaria> at some point it would be nice to do proper somewhat-scientific benchmarks, though right now getting hubbub fully-funtional takes more priority
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  166. # [14:19] <hsivonen> with Java, IO details make a huge difference
  167. # [14:20] <hsivonen> which is why I run benchmarks from RAM when I don't want to benchmark IO
  168. # [14:22] <hsivonen> (I already tweaked IO earlier)
  169. # [14:22] <hsivonen> (It might not be a bad idea to rerun tests with IO included)
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  171. # [14:35] <takkaria> my benchmarking is really unscientific, and consists of writing test apps and running them through `time` on the command-line
  172. # [14:36] <takkaria> otoh, mmap() after a couple of runs results in fairly unchanging data, so it's good enough for me
  173. # [14:40] <hsivonen> I do timing inside Java and warm the VM up first
  174. # [14:40] <takkaria> yeah, you have the advantage there :)
  175. # [14:44] <hsivonen> performance tuning on HotSpot is pretty annoying
  176. # [14:45] <hsivonen> because doing the wrong thing can lead to HotSpot not JITting stuff
  177. # [14:45] <hsivonen> which means about tenth the performance
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  179. # [15:02] <hsivonen> I wonder how much I could speed up the tokenizer if I removed all the run-time configurability
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  189. # [15:45] <Lachy> JohnResig, yt?
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  191. # [15:47] <Lachy> JohnResig, your selectors api testsuite is trying to load "data/iframe.html" in an iframe, but it's returning 404. http://ejohn.org/apps/selectortest/data/iframe.html
  192. # [15:50] <JohnResig> Lachy: correct - the URL wasn't important to the test itself
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  195. # [15:55] <Lachy> JohnResig, ok. So can the iframe be removed, or the src attribute removed?
  196. # [15:56] <JohnResig> Lachy: the src is probably safe to remove
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  198. # [15:56] <Lachy> ok. It still works when I remove it.
  199. # [15:57] <Lachy> the test suite is actually working in gogi now, so it appears we fixed whatever bug was causing it to abort the test earlier
  200. # [15:57] <JohnResig> Lachy: cool
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  202. # [15:57] <Lachy> except, there's some weird bug with the stylesheet
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  204. # [15:58] <Lachy> If I leave this style in the page: .unitTest, .test { height: 10px; } then I don't get any scrollbar
  205. # [15:58] <JohnResig> weird
  206. # [15:58] <Lachy> it doesn't appear to be important, so I just removed it so I could see all the results
  207. # [15:59] <Lachy> oh, it's because body has a class of unitTest, so it's getting set to a height of 10px.
  208. # [16:00] <Lachy> oh, no, that's not it.
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  210. # [16:07] <Lachy> JohnResig, was the test suite updated after support for namespaces were removed from the spec?
  211. # [16:08] <JohnResig> Lachy: I'm updating it now
  212. # [16:08] <Lachy> ok, thanks.
  213. # [16:08] <JohnResig> Lachy: we had a copy that we were using, I'm pushing itlive
  214. # [16:08] <JohnResig> *it live
  215. # [16:08] <zcorpan> interesting, http://simon.html5.org/test/html/semantics/video/events.htm doesn't finish loading in firefox (the parser stops after the first script block)
  216. # [16:09] <Lachy> alright. Let me know when it's up
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  219. # [16:15] <jgraham> zcorpan: It seems to load OK for me, but then it crashes the browser
  220. # [16:17] <jgraham> when you click play
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  224. # [16:27] <Lachy> JohnResig, can you add a feature that allows me to show only failed test results? If you add class="pass" and class="fail" to each <li>, then add a checkbox or something that applies the style: .pass {display: none;}, or similar, that woud work
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  227. # [16:34] <JohnResig> Lachy: done: http://ejohn.org/apps/selectortest/#target
  228. # [16:35] <Lachy> thanks
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  230. # [16:36] <zcorpan> jgraham: i updated my firefox and now it loads and plays but it seems to play the video too fast
  231. # [16:38] <jgraham> zcorpan: Which platform?
  232. # [16:38] * jgraham is using today's Linux build
  233. # [16:39] <zcorpan> jgraham: windows
  234. # [16:39] <Lachy> JohnResig, that scrolling bug in gogi no longer occurs, and it looks like you changed the offending css. Did that turn out to be a bug in your CSS, or is it still something wrong with gogi that I should get fixed?
  235. # [16:39] <zcorpan> jgraham: but i got the same results on ubuntu yesterday
  236. # [16:39] <zcorpan> (played too fast)
  237. # [16:40] * jgraham goes to file a bug
  238. # [16:40] <JohnResig> Lachy: probably something wrong in Gogi, but it wasn't necessary in my tests
  239. # [16:42] <Lachy> ok. I still have a copy of the old file, so I'll investigate it later
  240. # [16:46] <Lachy> cool, looks like we're failing the following: stringifying null/undefined, various attribute selectors, :enabled, :disabled, :checked, and all DocumentFragment tests
  241. # [16:49] <Lachy> JohnResig, can you add <label> around the Show Failing Tests checkbox
  242. # [16:51] <JohnResig> Lachy: done
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  254. # [18:11] <virtuelv> question (barely related to anything, really)
  255. # [18:11] <virtuelv> I have an element with top:0 and height:100%
  256. # [18:12] <virtuelv> fixed position
  257. # [18:12] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-ffbf434cd1d7cfde)
  258. # [18:12] <virtuelv> now, assume that I use full-screen zoom
  259. # [18:13] <virtuelv> If I now zoom, should offsetHeight of the element change?
  260. # [18:15] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.245)
  261. # [18:18] <virtuelv> nevermind, what should happen to window.innerHeight?
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  267. # [18:47] * hsivonen finds http://apache.org/xml/features/standard-uri-conformant Default: false
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  271. # [19:02] <hsivonen> whoa! Namespace processing in Xerces is relatively more expensive than HTML5 tree building in the Validator.nu HTML Parser
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  293. # [21:27] <jgraham> Wow I like the comment "anything [complex enough to require workers] is [...] valuable enough to be commercial software - and therefore requiring protection against illicit copying"
  294. # [21:28] <jgraham> Because no one ever wrote any open source software that needs threads...
  295. # [21:30] * maik|bath is now known as maikmerten
  296. # [21:31] <Lachy> jgraham, who said that?
  297. # [21:31] <jgraham> Lachy: Shannon on the whatwg list. You may have stopped reading the thread...
  298. # [21:31] <Lachy> yeah, I haven't read much on whatwg lately
  299. # [21:33] <csarven> What do you guys think: 10 GETs vs. 1 GET + 50k
  300. # [21:33] <Lachy> ?
  301. # [21:33] <jgraham> I would reply and mention the existence of Erlang and use cases for long running background tasks for things like web-based image editors but I don't think it would help
  302. # [21:33] <jgraham> 50kb?
  303. # [21:34] * jgraham suspects that 1 get + 50kb would be faster for most people
  304. # [21:34] <jgraham> If that was the question
  305. # [21:34] <jgraham> But I have no reason for thinking that
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  310. # [21:41] <virtuelv> csarven: ? use case?
  311. # [21:42] <virtuelv> but in general, unless the 1 request locks up the browser/page UI, I'd propose going for it
  312. # [21:42] <virtuelv> 10 requests add at the very least 3kb extra of data to download
  313. # [21:43] <csarven> jgraham virtuelv I'm applying data: URI scheme to images in CSS.
  314. # [21:43] <roc> every time someone mentions Erlang I reach for my gun
  315. # [21:44] <jgraham> roc: ?
  316. # [21:44] * jgraham is quite scared
  317. # [21:45] <roc> too many people seem to believe that Erlang invented message passing
  318. # [21:45] <virtuelv> csarven: I'm probably slow, given that my body is in a different timezone than the one I'm actually in, without having travelled across timezones
  319. # [21:45] <virtuelv> csarven: but you're including images using data:
  320. # [21:46] <virtuelv> if you have 50 K of image data in data: URI's, I'd say you're doing it wrong
  321. # [21:46] <jgraham> roc: I don't know who invented message passing but Erlang is probably the most famous example of a system that uses it heavilly, right?
  322. # [21:46] <roc> wrong
  323. # [21:46] <jgraham> So what is right?
  324. # [21:47] <roc> well, thanks to the Erlang fanboys you may in fact be right at this point, but that's self-fulfilling ignorance
  325. # [21:47] <jgraham> roc: A lot of fame seems to be based around that concept...
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  327. # [21:48] <jgraham> Anyway, I am curious about the other, better, examples
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  329. # [21:48] <virtuelv> csarven: if your stylesheet is big, as 50 kB is, you are at some point going to end up with FOUC on a slow connection
  330. # [21:49] <virtuelv> csarven: I'd rather see if the images could be combined, using some variant of CSS sprites, to keep the number of requests down
  331. # [21:49] <roc> Mach was extremely famous and uses message passing
  332. # [21:50] <csarven> virtuelv I'm already using CSS sprites
  333. # [21:51] <csarven> It appears to be that the resulting total weight of the page is 50k more when I use data:
  334. # [21:51] <jgraham> roc: That's a microkernel, right? I guess it wouldn't be the right example to use if you were trying to convince a skeptic that message passing is a good idea on the web (but I don't disagree that it's pretty famous)
  335. # [21:51] <roc> but well before that, there were well-known programming models like actors and CSP that are focused on shared-nothing message passing
  336. # [21:52] <virtuelv> csarven: then you have a lot of image data, ~250kb, or so?
  337. # [21:53] <virtuelv> a possible optimization at that point is to store the images at a different domain/subdomain
  338. # [21:53] <csarven> Actually not that much no.
  339. # [21:54] <csarven> I must be incorrectly calculating this.
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  342. # [21:59] <virtuelv> hm, or I might be off here, the overhead is 3/2
  343. # [21:59] <virtuelv> or so
  344. # [22:05] <csarven> Images weigh-in about: 45k
  345. # [22:06] <csarven> The ones that get to be used for data:
  346. # [22:07] <csarven> With data:uri ~200k total page weight, without data:uri ~150k
  347. # [22:07] <csarven> Firebug results.
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  351. # [22:17] <zcorpan> hmm.. it would be nice if it wasn't possible to set website and signature until you have at least 1 post on the forums
  352. # [22:20] <zcorpan> Hixie: you think you could comment out the "Website" and "Signature" rows in http://forums.whatwg.org/profile.php?mode=register&agreed=true ?
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  366. # [22:54] <takkaria> hsivonen: you may find http://takkaria.org/dmoz/ useful
  367. # [22:58] <Hixie> zcorpan: done
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  369. # [22:59] <Hixie> hsivonen: separation of content and style doesn't imply that the style is in a vacuum, the tyle always depends on the structure of the content.
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The end :)