/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-08-14 / end

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  34. # [02:16] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2008Aug/0008.html is fantastic
  35. # [02:18] <Hixie> woot, html5 being used on actual google pages
  36. # [02:18] <Hixie> e.g. http://www.google.com/privacy.html
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  41. # [02:44] <jruderman> what does that page use from html5? the short doctype and <meta charset>?
  42. # [02:45] <jruderman> innerHTML? ;)
  43. # [02:46] <Hixie> the short doctype and the intent that it comply to html5
  44. # [02:46] <Hixie> as opposed to the usual google policy of "hey it works in ie"
  45. # [02:46] <jruderman> oh, wow, the use of <h1> and alt text at the top is beautiful
  46. # [02:53] <jacobolus> also, it cuts out the <head>, <body> tags, all unnecessary closing tags, etc.
  47. # [02:53] <Hixie> indeed
  48. # [02:53] <jacobolus> what's the <div></div> about?
  49. # [02:54] <Hixie> probably to hang style off
  50. # [02:54] <Hixie> but i haven't checked
  51. # [02:55] <billmason> Looks like it just clears the floats from the lists of specific privacy policies above it.
  52. # [02:57] <jacobolus> ah, it does a { clear: left; }
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  54. # [03:05] <Hixie> jesus, ITS is over-engineered for this.
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  58. # [03:33] <Hixie> i really should figure something out as far as an event queue is concerned
  59. # [03:33] <Hixie> maybe i need to define the main event loop
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  87. # [06:34] <roc> anyone know if the @font-face font linking in Safari 3.1 imposes a same-origin restriction on linked fonts, or can you link to any font on the Web from any page?
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  91. # [06:45] <bdash> roc: it doesn't
  92. # [06:46] <roc> yeah, I just tested it myself, thanks
  93. # [06:46] <bdash> roc: there's a FIXME in the code that suggests that the policy is not set in stone though
  94. # [06:46] <roc> interesting
  95. # [06:47] <roc> I think we might want to impose a same-origin policy
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  99. # [07:07] <hsivonen> roc: wouldn't same-origin policy prevent new business models?
  100. # [07:07] <roc> huh?
  101. # [07:07] <hsivonen> roc: like a foundry hosting a font and metering access
  102. # [07:08] <roc> we could support Access Controls for font file loads if the server with the font file wants to be more permissive
  103. # [07:17] <hsivonen> takkaria: thanks
  104. # [07:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: I disagree. I think if your content and style are properly separated, your style can be written ahead of time enumerating the constructs you want to use.
  105. # [07:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: where a 'table with headings' is a construct
  106. # [07:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: not table with two columns and the second column takes percentages
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  113. # [09:20] <hsivonen> hmm. GWT 1.5 RC2 is out
  114. # [09:20] <hsivonen> still using *old* versions of Gecko and WebKit
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  141. # [13:26] * hsivonen needs apache gzip negotiation for dummies
  142. # [13:34] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/specs/web-dom-core
  143. # [13:34] <jcranmer> bah, how do I send an
  144. # [13:35] <jcranmer> = in post data properly?
  145. # [13:35] <zcorpan> =3D ?
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  147. # [13:44] <gDashiva> zcorpan: the entire spec is one huge issues block? :)
  148. # [13:48] <zcorpan> gDashiva: yeah
  149. # [13:48] <zcorpan> gDashiva: before i had notes all over the place, at least now they're all in 1 place :)
  150. # [13:49] <gDashiva> It does serve as a kind of pseudo-toc as well
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  152. # [14:02] <Lachy> I have to buy myself a Drobo from the USA. It's 3 times more expensive to get the first gen (USB only, no firewire and no drives) in Norway
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  155. # [14:30] <zcorpan> hsivonen: got the "undef error - Insecure dependency in exec while running with -T switch at /usr/share/perl5/Mail/Mailer/sendmail.pm line 22." again
  156. # [14:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan: :-( I don't know what to do about it.
  157. # [14:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
  158. # [14:36] <hsivonen> JohnResig: you blogged about parsing HTML in JS earlier. I got GWT to compile the Validator.nu HTML Parser into JS: http://livedom.validator.nu/
  159. # [14:36] <JohnResig> hsivonen: ah, neat
  160. # [14:40] <zcorpan> hsivonen: cool
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  164. # [14:53] <Lachy> hsivonen, could that be merged with Hixie's live dom viewer and made to show both the HTML5 parser and the browser DOMs side by side?
  165. # [14:54] <hsivonen> Lachy: that should be technically possible
  166. # [14:54] <hsivonen> Lachy: I don't promise to do it right now
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  168. # [15:02] * zcorpan notes that <p><b><b><b><p>x<p>x<p>x is parsed differently in webkit and html5
  169. # [15:04] <zcorpan> webkit ends up with 10 elements, html5 with 16
  170. # [15:06] <zcorpan> with <p><b><b><b><b><b><b><b><b><b><p>x<p>x<p>x<p>x<p>x<p>x<p>x<p>x<p>x it's 28 vs 100
  171. # [15:07] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  172. # [15:22] * zcorpan sees window.parseHtmlDocument(textarea.value, iframe.contentWindow.document, afterParse, null);
  173. # [15:22] <zcorpan> hsivonen: is there any documentation on how to use the js parser?
  174. # [15:22] <hsivonen> zcorpan: no
  175. # [15:22] <hsivonen> but I can document it here
  176. # [15:22] <zcorpan> cool
  177. # [15:22] <hsivonen> there is one tested entry point
  178. # [15:22] <hsivonen> (the above)
  179. # [15:22] <hsivonen> and one untested entry point
  180. # [15:23] <hsivonen> oops
  181. # [15:23] <hsivonen> correction
  182. # [15:23] <hsivonen> there's only one entry point
  183. # [15:23] <hsivonen> the first argument is the HTML5 source as a string
  184. # [15:24] <hsivonen> the second argument is a DOM document object, whose children will be removed and replaced by the result of the parse
  185. # [15:24] <hsivonen> the fourth argument is a function object that will be called when the parse finishes
  186. # [15:24] <hsivonen> s/fourth/third/
  187. # [15:24] * hsivonen can't count
  188. # [15:25] <hsivonen> the fourth argument is supposed to be an error reporting callback, but it's not implemented
  189. # [15:25] <hsivonen> so the fourth argument does nothing
  190. # [15:26] <hsivonen> so currently, the JS parser doesn't support fragments
  191. # [15:26] <hsivonen> and it can't attach to an existing tree without destroying it
  192. # [15:26] <hsivonen> I want to add those features in the future
  193. # [15:27] <zcorpan> was that what you had in mind as the second entry point?
  194. # [15:27] <hsivonen> the fragment entry point
  195. # [15:27] <zcorpan> ok
  196. # [15:27] <zcorpan> thanks
  197. # [15:27] <hsivonen> but its design sucked, so I removed it
  198. # [15:27] <hsivonen> note that parseHtmlDocument returns before the parse is complete
  199. # [15:28] <zcorpan> hence the callback?
  200. # [15:28] <hsivonen> to avoid hanging the browser, the parser pumps data through itself using timeouts
  201. # [15:28] <hsivonen> yes, hence the callback
  202. # [15:30] <hsivonen> oh, and calling parseHtmlDocument overwrites the write and writeln methods on the document object that is passed to it
  203. # [15:30] <hsivonen> and replaces them with its own implementations
  204. # [15:31] <zcorpan> hsivonen: this is all pretty neat work
  205. # [15:31] <hsivonen> thanks
  206. # [15:34] <zcorpan> hsivonen: does the parser support innerHTML?
  207. # [15:36] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the Java code support the fragment cases, but the JS version doesn't provide entry to that code and doesn't overwrite innerHTML setters
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  209. # [15:37] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok
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  212. # [15:54] <mpilgrim> lachy or hsivonen or someone with blog.whatwg.org admin rights: can you create a category for "This Week in HTML 5"? (or give me admin rights so i can do it myself)
  213. # [15:55] <Lachy> mpilgrim, sure
  214. # [15:55] <Lachy> what do you want me to call it?
  215. # [15:55] <mpilgrim> no preference
  216. # [15:56] <zcorpan> html5-weekly
  217. # [15:56] <zcorpan> ?
  218. # [15:56] <gDashiva> as the html5 turns
  219. # [15:56] <mpilgrim> as long as it gets its own feed
  220. # [15:57] <mpilgrim> my boss's boss's boss wants to follow it
  221. # [15:57] <mpilgrim> seriously
  222. # [15:57] <Lachy> I was thinking weekly-review
  223. # [15:57] <mpilgrim> weekly-review works for me
  224. # [15:59] <Lachy> done and I added the first post too it already
  225. # [15:59] <mpilgrim> thanks
  226. # [15:59] <mpilgrim> so, nominations for this week's episode?
  227. # [15:59] <Lachy> http://blog.whatwg.org/category/weekly-review/feed works
  228. # [15:59] <mpilgrim> hooray
  229. # [16:00] <mpilgrim> i've already written up the bit about the navigator object
  230. # [16:01] <Lachy> outerHTML was apparently added.
  231. # [16:01] <gDashiva> huzzah
  232. # [16:02] <Lachy> xml:lang and lang are now allowed in both HTML and XHTML
  233. # [16:03] <hsivonen> Lachy: except xml:lang in HTML and xml:lang in XHTML are totally different
  234. # [16:03] <Lachy> hsivonen, yeah, I know
  235. # [16:04] <hsivonen> Almost every XMLism adopted in XHTML 1.0 causes trouble when mapping HTML5 to XML infoset
  236. # [16:05] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  237. # [16:05] <Lachy> were there backwards compatibility issues with doing magic namespace processing for xml:lang in HTML documents?
  238. # [16:06] <jacobolus> hsivonen: the livedom thing is neat
  239. # [16:07] * hsivonen goes file browser bugs exposed by it
  240. # [16:08] <jacobolus> hsivonen: that could presumably be used to hack really old browsers to make proper doms, no?
  241. # [16:09] <jacobolus> (not that there's necessarily any particular use for that)
  242. # [16:09] <hsivonen> jacobolus: yeah, I want to make a library that sniffs for HTML5 parsing and if not present, document.writes <plaintext>, attaches the JS parser to the DOM and parses the plaintext content
  243. # [16:10] <hsivonen> jacobolus: I think such a JS library would be useful for bootstrapping SVG and MathML in text/html once new browsers support HTML5 parsing so that only old browsers would take a perf hit
  244. # [16:11] <jacobolus> ah, good point
  245. # [16:11] <jacobolus> also might help for support of the various structure tags
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  247. # [16:15] <jacobolus> hsivonen: might also be nice to show a box with conformance problems in that page, if it's possible
  248. # [16:16] <hsivonen> jacobolus: I could add parser-level error reporting, but porting the entire conformance checker to JS is a bit too much :-)
  249. # [16:17] <jacobolus> hsivonen: or maybe just a button that says "check conformance" and sends the text out to your conformance checker, putting the problems found back in a box
  250. # [16:17] <hsivonen> GWT is pretty smart about removing dead code, though, so I'm pretty sure the code size would go up notably if the error reporting code didn't count as dead
  251. # [16:18] <hsivonen> jacobolus: perhaps when a browser ships with Access-Control support
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  256. # [16:41] <hsivonen> has anyone figured out yet if the new <a> content models have uglier consequences than the <ins> content model?
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  259. # [16:51] * hsivonen finds it amusing that Hixie changed the ins/del content models in the same check-in
  260. # [16:51] <gDashiva> Isn't the new <a> content model just what the de-facto content model was all along?
  261. # [16:52] <hsivonen> gDashiva: I mean conformance consequences
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  271. # [17:31] <kangax> is it possible to work with canvas in rhino?
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  275. # [17:46] <mpilgrim> http://blog.whatwg.org/this-week-in-html5-episode-2
  276. # [17:58] * mpilgrim still can't believe he's getting paid for this
  277. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> mpilgrim: I think those writeups a massively good. It would so great if you can manage to keep doing them
  278. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> Hixie's productively might make pretty hard to keep up
  279. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> productivity
  280. # [18:02] * MikeSmith wishes he knew what rhino is
  281. # [18:02] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: The javascript engine?
  282. # [18:03] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  283. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: for which browser?
  284. # [18:04] <Dashiva> None that I know of. It's a standalone thing. In java, even.
  285. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> ah
  286. # [18:04] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://livedom.validator.nu/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Csvg%3E%3Cscript%3Ea%3Cfoo%3Eb%3C%2Fscript%3E
  287. # [18:05] <zcorpan> gives different result than http://parsetree.validator.nu/?parser=html5&content=%3C%21DOCTYPE+html%3E%0D%0A%3Csvg%3E%3Cscript%3Ea%3Cfoo%3Eb%3C%2Fscript%3E&submit=Print+Tree
  288. # [18:05] <zcorpan> intended?
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  362. # [22:46] <zcorpan> http://www.brandonfrohs.com/2008/08/whatwg-they-know-html-dont-they/
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  367. # [22:54] <Hixie> if mark's boss' boss' boss wants to follow the "This week in html5" stuff, that means my boss' boss does too
  368. # [22:54] <Hixie> good to know!
  369. # [22:54] <Hixie> guess i'd better stop slacking off
  370. # [22:55] <Hixie> btw next time mark asks for someone to configure the whatwg blog for him or whatever
  371. # [22:55] <Hixie> just make him an admin
  372. # [22:55] <Hixie> :-P
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  376. # [23:11] <Dashiva> We're the html-wg, not the pretty-sites-wg!
  377. # [23:11] * Lachy commented too
  378. # [23:11] <Lachy> on the blog about the desing
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  380. # [23:11] <Lachy> *design
  381. # [23:12] <Hixie> originally when i read that blog post i thought he was going to compliment us on not wasting time with frivalous things
  382. # [23:12] <Dashiva> Although I must agree default phpbb is ugly like little else
  383. # [23:12] <Hixie> :-)
  384. # [23:13] <Lachy> the default wordpress is quite ugly too. But I don't have design skills to redesign it.
  385. # [23:13] <jacobolus1> Dashiva: and not just ugly on the outside
  386. # [23:13] * jacobolus1 is now known as jacobolus
  387. # [23:13] <Dashiva> jacobolus: Don't remind me, please :)
  388. # [23:13] <Lachy> photoshop and other image editors are way too complicated for me to produce anything even remotely good looking
  389. # [23:14] <jacobolus> Lachy: what good looking are you trying to produce?
  390. # [23:14] <jacobolus> there are various simple image editors …
  391. # [23:15] <Lachy> jacobolus, put it this way: the design of http://lachy.id.au/ is about the limit of my design skills. I know how ugly it is, but regardless of the image editor, I don't have design skills.
  392. # [23:16] <jacobolus> I like the color scheme, but the design is very busy :)
  393. # [23:16] <Lachy> but if someone were to give me a photoshop mockup, I could cut out the images and code it in a matter of days
  394. # [23:17] <Lachy> initally, I liked the colour scheme too. I used a colour scheme tool to pick it. But I'm quite tired of it, since I've had the same design for 4 years now
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  398. # [23:21] <Hixie> ok i really think i'm going to have to define some sort of event loop
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  400. # [23:22] <Hixie> that will make things much simpler to specify in all the places where we have "and then at the next available opportunity..." stuff
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The end :)