/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-08-15 / end

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  48. # [03:27] <Lachy> I'm using psybnc right now, but it's overly complicated and not working well. Does anyone know of a better alternative?
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  60. # [04:34] * Hixie ran into an rdfa person earlier
  61. # [04:35] <Hixie> i'm now more convinced than before that html5 is following the right course in terms of rdfa, distributed extensibility, etc
  62. # [04:37] <Lachy> Hixie, what did the rdfa person tell you?
  63. # [04:38] <Hixie> that html5 was a horrible mistake, basically
  64. # [04:38] <Hixie> we had a long 40 minute discussion
  65. # [04:38] <Lachy> can you say who it was?
  66. # [04:39] <jcranmer> 40 minutes to say "your project SUCKS" ?
  67. # [04:39] <Hixie> Hal Abelson
  68. # [04:40] <Lachy> ok, I don't know him.
  69. # [04:40] <Hixie> jcranmer: no, we were discussing things like whether there was any reason to believe that authors were interested in micro-level detailing of data types (as in microformats or rdfa), etc
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  74. # [05:28] <BenMillard> Hixie, are you here still?
  75. # [05:30] <BenMillard> oh, you're AFK
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  80. # [05:56] <jacobolus> Hixie: the Hal Abelson who taught SICP with Sussman for all those years?
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  82. # [06:03] <jacobolus> funny that hearing objections would make you more convinced. :) I guess the objections were not compelling? :)
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  91. # [06:52] <Hixie> jacobolus: yeah, that Hal. It wasn't so much that the objections made me more convinced, so much as articulating the counterarguments made me realise how strong the arguments in favour of our current course were compared to the arguments against
  92. # [07:02] <BenMillard> Hixie, at a very rough count it looks like I've bookmarked (very approximately) 900 web pages which do something interesting with their markup
  93. # [07:02] <BenMillard> each bookmark has maybe a sentence describing why I bookmarked it
  94. # [07:03] <BenMillard> I indent to scrape those entries out Firefox's bookmarks.html file and then filter the markup into something halfway sane for the web
  95. # [07:03] <BenMillard> this should hopefully meet the midpoint criteria for my Mozilla sponsorship on 1st September
  96. # [07:04] <BenMillard> after that, I can tailor the document to make it more useful for HTML5 work
  97. # [07:07] <Hixie> cool
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  100. # [07:31] <hdh> "The insertRow(index) method must, when invoked on an element table section, act as follows:" should read "table section element"?
  101. # [07:32] <Hixie> no, "table section" is a variable in that sentence
  102. # [07:33] <Hixie> "The insertRow(index) method must, when invoked on an element /table section/, act as follows"
  103. # [07:33] <hdh> ah ok
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  108. # [08:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: nope. not intended. I wrote the script kick-off code in the browser DOM tree builder for HTML script and forgot that SVG script can have non-text children
  109. # [08:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
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  116. # [09:10] <hsivonen> zcorpan: http://livedom.validator.nu/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Csvg%3E%3Cscript%3Ea%3Cfoo%3Eb%3C%2Fscript%3E fixed. thanks.
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  120. # [10:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: oh sorry. the <script>a<foo>b thing seems to be a bug in opera
  121. # [10:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan: no, it was a bug in the parser
  122. # [10:04] <hsivonen> 10:05 < hsivonen> zcorpan:
  123. # [10:04] <hsivonen> http://livedom.validator.nu/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Csvg%3E%3Cscript%3Ea%3Cfoo%3Eb%3C%2Fscript%3E fixed. thanks.
  124. # [10:04] <hsivonen> or rather, it was a bug in the script kick-off code in the GWT tree builder
  125. # [10:05] <Hixie> so i was talking to the translation guys at google earlier, regarding the no-translate thing
  126. # [10:05] <Hixie> and i was amused to find out that we just ignor lang="" altogether for the purposes of translation
  127. # [10:05] <hsivonen> hmm. now that I think about it, there's a pretty serious bug in the case of <script><script> in SVG
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  129. # [10:05] <Hixie> because it's more accurate to just autodetect the language than to use the metadata
  130. # [10:06] <hsivonen> yay for metadata
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  132. # [10:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: how should scripts be run when SVG scripts elements nest?
  133. # [10:06] <Hixie> ask the svgwg
  134. # [10:08] <hsivonen> their recent tendency seems to be towards doing what HTML browsers do with scripts
  135. # [10:12] <Hixie> sounds good to me
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  137. # [10:12] <Hixie> so do the same as what XHTML <script>s do when nested
  138. # [10:13] <hsivonen> what happens with those?
  139. # [10:14] <hsivonen> (I should probably know, but I don't.)
  140. # [10:14] <Hixie> search for "When a script block is inserted into a document, the user agent must act as follows"
  141. # [10:14] <Hixie> though i guess the spec as written makes xml script elements not work
  142. # [10:14] <heycam> hsivonen, let me know what happens for that so i can append it to my SVG <script> fixes
  143. # [10:14] <heycam> (if you could)
  144. # [10:15] <hsivonen> heycam: ok.
  145. # [10:15] <Hixie> since the xml parser (where is it defined? oh well) presumably inserts the script element before the contents are inserted
  146. # [10:15] <Hixie> and thus the scripts never actually execute
  147. # [10:15] <Hixie> i guess that's a bug that should be fixed
  148. # [10:15] <Hixie> not sure how to fix it though
  149. # [10:15] <Hixie> maybe script elements shouldn't be inserted until they're all parsed
  150. # [10:16] <Hixie> or there should be something that happens when the end tag is parsed
  151. # [10:16] <Hixie> the latter seems best
  152. # [10:16] <Hixie> file a bug
  153. # [10:16] <hsivonen> ok
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  156. # [10:22] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ah. i was confused by opera's agressive caching again
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  166. # [11:27] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  167. # [11:27] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
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  169. # [11:32] <Lachy> I upgraded several whatwg blog accounts to Editor, giving them the ability to moderate posts, manage categories, etc.
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  174. # [12:00] <Lachy> Hixie, yt?
  175. # [12:01] <Lachy> Hixie, can you send me a copy of the latest acid3 test. It appears my copy is out of date now.
  176. # [12:04] <Lachy> actually, could you set up a script that creates a tarball of all the latest files when I go to acid3.acidtests.org/latest.tar.gz (or whatever)
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  186. # [13:35] <zcorpan> hsivonen: <svg></body> makes livedom hang
  187. # [13:37] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that's weird. thanks.
  188. # [13:37] <hsivonen> http://parsetree.validator.nu/?parser=html5&content=<svg><%2Fbody> works
  189. # [13:38] <zcorpan> indeed
  190. # [13:41] <zcorpan> hsivonen: is it intentional to drop comments in livedom?
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  195. # [14:20] <hsivonen> hmm. <svg></body> doesn't hang in Hosted Mode
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  197. # [14:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I'm suspecting an unfixed variant of the same compiler bug that was more obvious earlier
  198. # [14:34] <hsivonen> but this is hard to debug, because now there's a new compiler bug that makes debugging hard
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  206. # [15:13] <Lachy> JohnResig, does your selectors api test suite test elements outside of the document?
  207. # [15:14] <JohnResig> Lachy: yes
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  264. # [21:34] <Philip`> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/User_talk:Highhi - spam
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  274. # [22:00] <Philip`> takkaria: The image on http://takkaria.org/dmoz/ seems purely decorative and therefore must have alt=""
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  278. # [22:13] <Philip`> "it's more accurate to just autodetect the language than to use the metadata" - wouldn't it be even more accurate to use the metadata as an input to the autodetection heuristics, since there's bound to be a non-zero correlation between the metadata and the data and therefore it's better to use that input than to ignore it?
  279. # [22:30] <Dashiva> How certain is that?
  280. # [22:33] <Philip`> How certain is what?
  281. # [22:33] <Dashiva> That the correlation is positive
  282. # [22:36] <Philip`> Pretty certain - if lang is currently entirely random and unrelated to the actual language, then I just need to create a single web page which uses lang correctly, and then there'll be a positive correlation, and the only way it'd get back to zero correlation is if someone maliciously uploads a new page with an intentionally incorrect lang, which seems pretty unlikely
  283. # [22:36] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@cm-84.215.63.253.getinternet.no)
  284. # [22:37] <Philip`> (and if they upload two incorrect pages, then there'll be a negative correlation, which you could usefully feed into your language autodetection heuristics so that your choice is biased away from the metadata because it's most likely to be incorrect)
  285. # [22:37] <Dashiva> But we'd have to know which
  286. # [22:38] <Dashiva> There could be page creators with English hardcoded, e.g.
  287. # [22:39] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
  288. # [22:39] <Philip`> If you have a million pages which say lang="en" because it's hardcoded into the editor and is unrelated to the actual language, and one page that says lang="en" because it's actually English, then the probability of a page being English given that it has lang="en" is greater than the probability of it being English given no prior knowledge
  289. # [22:40] <Philip`> kangax: If I'm remembering correctly that you asked about Rhino canvases, you might want to see http://rhino-canvas.sourceforge.net/
  290. # [22:40] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  291. # [22:41] <kangax> Philip`: yes, I've seen this, but when running couldn't make it produce any result
  292. # [22:41] <Dashiva> It'd have to be significant enough to be useful
  293. # [22:41] <Philip`> Dashiva: (...assuming the distribution of languages on the pages created with the lang="en" editor is identical to the distribution of languages on pages without lang, or something like that)
  294. # [22:42] <Philip`> Dashiva: That depends solely on your definition of "useful"
  295. # [22:42] <Dashiva> Useful in that there exist pages that are ambiguous without it and not with it
  296. # [22:42] <kangax> Philip`: eventually I found out that Jaxer (running on Rhino) works with canvas nicely
  297. # [22:42] <takkaria> Philip`: fixed, ta
  298. # [22:42] <kangax> Philip`: and implements toDataURL which I needed
  299. # [22:44] <Philip`> Dashiva: If providing extra information results in your autodetection algorithm having a one-in-a-million chance of giving a better result, then that seems useful if you're looking at more than a million pages, and on the web you probably are :-)
  300. # [22:44] <Dashiva> But it probably isn't that much
  301. # [22:44] <Dashiva> It has to be a million pages with ambiguous content
  302. # [22:45] <Philip`> kangax: Ooh, Jaxer has a canvas implementation?
  303. # [22:45] <Dashiva> And even then there's the cost of figuring out how much weight to give it, and implement the weighting, and suffer from false positives when you overweight :)
  304. # [22:45] <kangax> Philip`: yep
  305. # [22:45] <kangax> Philip`: it managed to run all of my code (which is getting quite complex)
  306. # [22:46] <Philip`> kangax: If I wasn't too lazy (which I am), I'd update http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/results.html to include that implementation, which could be interesting :-)
  307. # [22:47] <kangax> they are using gecko if i'm not mistaken
  308. # [22:47] <kangax> not sure which, though
  309. # [22:47] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  310. # [22:47] <kangax> (not sure which version)
  311. # [22:48] <Philip`> Oh... If it's "running on Rhino", I presume that means it's doing stuff in Java, so how does it make use of Gecko?
  312. # [22:50] <kangax> I think via XUL
  313. # [22:51] <kangax> Philip`: http://www.aptana.com/node/266
  314. # [22:51] <kangax> "Jaxer is built on the same technology as Firefox which means we can take advantage of XUL-like functionality on the server." <-- I assume they are talking about Gecko
  315. # [22:55] * Philip` fails to find an obvious description of technical details on what it does
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  317. # [23:11] <Philip`> Hixie: Are you aware that the commit-watchers emails are saying "/home/ianh/svn/webapps/hooks/commit-email.pl: `/usr/bin/svnlook diff /home/ianh/svn/webapps -r 2073' failed with this output:"?
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  323. # [23:20] <Hixie> Philip`: i was not, investigating, thanks
  324. # [23:20] <Hixie> Philip`: re the language thing, my understanding is that the heuristics are so significantly more accurate than lang="" that looking at lang="" wouldn't help any measurable amount
  325. # [23:23] <Hixie> so er
  326. # [23:23] <Hixie> the problem is svn is segfaulting
  327. # [23:23] <Hixie> wtf
  328. # [23:28] <Hixie> well i have no idea how to fix that
  329. # [23:28] <Hixie> so i guess we'll have to live with it for now
  330. # [23:35] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-35-200.range217-44.btcentralplus.com)
  331. # [23:40] <gsnedders> Hixie: can you reply to my email about datagrid ASAP?
  332. # [23:40] <Hixie> sent today?
  333. # [23:40] <gsnedders> Hixie: Just now.
  334. # [23:40] <gsnedders> I only just got internet back from being on holiday :)
  335. # [23:41] <Hixie> The interactive content vs element thing?
  336. # [23:41] <gsnedders> yeah
  337. # [23:41] * Quits: roc_ (n=roc@121-72-169-131.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  338. # [23:41] <gsnedders> (I need it so I can release spec-gen 1.0RC1 tomorrow, or maybe Sun)
  339. # [23:41] <Hixie> the answer to the question is yes
  340. # [23:41] <Hixie> but editing the spec will be a bitch cos i'm in the middle of a bazillion edits
  341. # [23:42] <gsnedders> Hixie: Thanks. That'll do for me. :P
  342. # [23:42] <Hixie> do you need the spec edited?
  343. # [23:42] <gsnedders> Nope.
  344. # [23:42] <Hixie> ok cool
  345. # [23:42] <Hixie> yeah that was just a typo
  346. # [23:42] <gsnedders> (It obviously ought to be fixed, but I don't have any need for that to be done quickly)
  347. # [23:42] <Hixie> i always think in terms of "bla element" like flow element, phrasing element, etc
  348. # [23:42] <gsnedders> Yeah, I was guessing that.
  349. # [23:42] <Hixie> but i have to call it content to allow text nodes to fall into it, etc
  350. # [23:42] <Hixie> so i keep making that mistake
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  352. # [23:43] <Hixie> anything else i can help you with?
  353. # [23:43] <gsnedders> I think not with
  354. # [23:43] <gsnedders> Have we published the Aug draft MikeSmith was talking of?
  355. # [23:43] <takkaria> not yet
  356. # [23:44] <gsnedders> All right.
  357. # [23:44] <Hixie> i'll be switching to spec gen asap after we do, if it's available :-)
  358. # [23:45] <gsnedders> spec-gen 1.0b2 is perfectly bug-free, spec-gen 1.0RC1 will cause ID gen breakages, though
  359. # [23:45] <gsnedders> and RC1 really is an RC :)
  360. # [23:45] <Hixie> hehe
  361. # [23:45] <Hixie> you sure are taking this seriously :-P
  362. # [23:46] <gsnedders> :P
  363. # [23:46] <gsnedders> Hixie: Or maybe I'm just a perfectionist :P
  364. # [23:47] * gsnedders ponders how to get around the issue that he uses XPath's normalize-space() which follows XML's S, and not HTML 5 whitespace
  365. # [23:48] <Philip`> I suggest getting around the issue by not caring about it
  366. # [23:48] <Hixie> "a documented limitation of this software..."
  367. # [23:49] <gsnedders> All that that affects is the whitespace in the middle of "latest version" for parsing the W3C status :P
  368. # [23:49] <gsnedders> s/af/ef/
  369. # [23:54] <gsnedders> I know I could fix it, it's just a question of with a how big of a perf. hit
  370. # [23:55] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
  371. # Session Close: Sat Aug 16 00:00:00 2008

The end :)