/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-08-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Aug 18 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:10] <gsnedders> jgraham: There shouldn't be trailing full stop characters in the section numbers! That's breaking ISO 2145! :P
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  64. # [07:56] * Dashiva wonders how othermaciej handled the Garret-Kris spiral of misconceptions
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  68. # [08:02] <jruderman> Hixie: i have some questions about https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=450981
  69. # [08:03] <jruderman> Hixie: when the spec says 'meta elements must be inside a head element', does that mean user agents are supposed to ignore them when they appear elsewhere?
  70. # [08:03] <jruderman> Hixie: can you cook up some stats on how many sites would break if we made that change?
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  72. # [08:04] <Hixie> when the spec says "meta elements must be inside a head element" it only means that head elements, to be conforming, have to have a head element ancestor
  73. # [08:04] <Hixie> it doesn't mean anything to do with how browsers work
  74. # [08:07] <jruderman> thanks
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  76. # [08:08] <Hixie> commented
  77. # [08:08] <Hixie> and invalidated
  78. # [08:09] <jruderman> Hixie: it was originally filed as an anti-XSS measure, not an HTML5 conformance thing
  79. # [08:09] <jruderman> Hixie: but i guess HTML5 actually requires not fixing it
  80. # [08:10] <Hixie> oh, the subject was changed? man i hate it when people do that :-)
  81. # [08:10] <Hixie> but yeah, technically html5 requires it to work anywhere
  82. # [08:10] <Hixie> maybe that should be changed
  83. # [08:10] <Hixie> though i know that at least for the character encoding, we have to support it anywhere
  84. # [08:11] <jruderman> if evil people can screw with character encoding they can probably sneak an XSS in through bytes that don't look like '<' but turn into '<'
  85. # [08:12] <jruderman> so you've seen a number of documents with meta charset in <body>?
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  88. # [08:13] <Hixie> meta charset in <body> happens all the time
  89. # [08:13] <jruderman> fun
  90. # [08:13] <Hixie> thing is the <body> starts as soon as you see any character
  91. # [08:13] <Hixie> so e.g. in <html>a<head><meta charset=""></head><body>...</body></html> the meta is in the body
  92. # [08:14] <jruderman> interesting. i've seen pages like that.
  93. # [08:14] <jruderman> i've also gotten frustrated by how whitespace seems to move around near the head ;)
  94. # [08:15] <Hixie> yeah
  95. # [08:17] <jruderman> do you want to comment in the bug again, or should i? it should probably be reopened with the summary reverted, with a suggestion of WONTFIX
  96. # [08:17] <Hixie> i can
  97. # [08:18] <jruderman> thanks
  98. # [08:18] <Hixie> done
  99. # [08:21] * jruderman changes the summary again
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  102. # [09:01] * Joins: hdworak (n=hdworak@213.199.195.101)
  103. # [09:01] <hdworak> hi. does html5lib handle CDATA?
  104. # [09:02] <hdworak> I mean CDATA sections, like <![CDATA[<sender>John Smith</sender>]]>
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  110. # [09:45] <othermaciej> Dashiva: at some point, I stopped reading
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  118. # [10:03] <Hixie> hdworak: HTML5 doesn't have <![CDATA[]]> blocks (except in embedded mathml, but that's probably not what you're asking about)
  119. # [10:15] <hsivonen> at some point, someone needs to define case-sensitivity of role values
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  121. # [10:16] <hsivonen> even if only to say that they aren't like other enumerated values
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  128. # [11:15] * gsnedders has proved once again on public-html he's an idiot
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  135. # [11:27] <hdworak> Hixie: ok, thank you
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  137. # [11:32] <hdworak> Hixie: so does that mean that from HTML 5 point of view, it is just ill-formed mark-up?
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  139. # [11:38] <Philip`> hdworak: Yes - it's treated as a (bogus) comment, and the parser just reads up until the next ">" character after the "<!"
  140. # [11:38] <hdworak> Philip`: thank you
  141. # [11:39] <Philip`> so it should be parsed the same as <!--[CDATA[<sender-->John Smith</sender>]]>
  142. # [11:42] <hdworak> Philip`: ok, but I'm using your lib to parse any HTML/XHTML not just HTML 5, so I'm just going to translate all CDATA to text beforehand
  143. # [11:43] <hdworak> :)
  144. # [11:45] <gsnedders> hdworak: any HTML should be parsed per the HTML 5 rules
  145. # [11:45] <Philip`> hdworak: If it's actually really proper XHTML, you should probably use an XML parser instead; otherwise you should probably just use html5lib without any special translations, since it ought to match how browsers parse pages
  146. # [11:46] <gsnedders> (where proper XHTML is served as application/xhtml+xml, application/xml, or text/xml, NOT text/html)
  147. # [11:47] <hdworak> well, I'm then using a regex to match any <!-- <rdf:RDF ... comments, which are the deprecated way to embedded RDF/XML in the code
  148. # [11:47] <hdworak> if it's valid, I'm doing try: dom = minidom.parseString(code)
  149. # [11:47] <hdworak> first
  150. # [11:47] <gsnedders> hdworak: Where's the data coming from?
  151. # [11:47] <hdworak> if it fails, I'm doing html5lib
  152. # [11:47] <hdworak> direct input, file upload, remote URI
  153. # [11:48] <gsnedders> hdworak: For the first two, I'd make it user selectable. For the third, it should be done from Content-Type, optionally with content-type sniffing
  154. # [11:48] <hdworak> so, because I'm using regex to match this commented <rdf:RDF, I do need to take care of CDATA, because if this appears in CDATA, it should not be parsed at all
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  156. # [11:49] <gsnedders> hdworak: de-facto CDATA doesn't exist in any HTML version, so that's irrelevant. What you need to know is whether the input is HTML or XML, nothing else.
  157. # [11:49] <hdworak> gsnedders: I understand, but IMHO the content-type really does not matter for this particular application
  158. # [11:49] <hdworak> I'm not doing a general purpose parser, but use it for extracting very specific information
  159. # [11:50] * gsnedders notes that feeds got to the stage at one point where you absolutely had to completely ignore any content-type header because someone thought that
  160. # [11:50] <hdworak> I know about Content-Type, Content-Location, XHTML 1.1 required MIME, <?xml version="" encoding="", <meta content-type, xml:base, <base href=""
  161. # [11:51] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  162. # [11:51] <hdworak> I just do not think it does matter at all for this particular application
  163. # [11:51] <gsnedders> possible issue of ignoring it: what if I send Content-Type: text/html; charset=gb2312?
  164. # [11:51] <hdworak> I'll probably add content selection (HTML, XHTML, RSS) once I introduce RSS parsing
  165. # [11:51] * hsivonen mumbles something about Trackback autodiscovery being so, so wrong
  166. # [11:52] <hdworak> gsnedders: does html5lib not return utf-8?
  167. # [11:52] <gsnedders> hdworak: You _really_ don't want to touch RSS parsing. Srsly.
  168. # [11:52] <gsnedders> hdworak: It wouldn't know what the input character encoding is.
  169. # [11:52] <hsivonen> I can imagine someone go "this is kinda like metadata. if you have metadata, you MUST use RDF. RDF won't validate. Let's comment it out"
  170. # [11:53] <hdworak> so it fails even for proper iso-8859-2 or something?
  171. # [11:53] * gsnedders can't remember the details
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  173. # [11:53] <hdworak> hsivonen: yes, but now they should use RDFa
  174. # [11:53] <annevk> Hixie, "requiring browsers to implementing rendering engines"
  175. # [11:53] <hdworak> does html5lib not try to guess the encoding?
  176. # [11:54] <hsivonen> hdworak: no, the point were the thinking goes wrong is at "if you have metadata, you MUST use RDF"
  177. # [11:54] <hdworak> like encutils or chardet?
  178. # [11:54] <gsnedders> hdworak: All it does is use meta@charset.
  179. # [11:54] <gsnedders> hdworak: and falls back to Windows-1252
  180. # [11:54] <hdworak> huh...
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  182. # [11:54] <gsnedders> hdworak: Oh, it does also use chardet
  183. # [11:54] <hdworak> so that's fine for the time being
  184. # [11:55] <hdworak> in the next versions I'll add content-type and encoding selection (aside of autodetection)
  185. # [11:55] <hdworak> like W3C Validator does
  186. # [11:55] <hsivonen> in retrospect, both Trackback and Pingback are more complex and bogus than they'd need to be
  187. # [11:55] <hdworak> but really, the first release does not have to be bulletproof
  188. # [11:55] <hdworak> pls understand
  189. # [11:55] <Philip`> To anyone who cares: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/User_talk:Highhi and http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/User_talk:Hijing are spam
  190. # [11:56] <hsivonen> Philip`: I'll deal with those
  191. # [11:56] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Trackback needs more complexity insofar as to give a character encoding, really
  192. # [11:56] <gsnedders> hdworak: Plenty of things have become broken forever because the first release of a reader was broken (e.g., the web)
  193. # [11:57] <hdworak> :)
  194. # [11:57] <hdworak> I think this is going a bit too far
  195. # [11:57] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I think the right way to implement blong pinging would be to collect the link relation from Referer and for the pinged site to dereference the Referer URI and find the relevant <a href> element and take an extract around that
  196. # [11:57] * Quits: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  197. # [11:57] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Yeah, that's Hixie's own opinion :)
  198. # [11:57] <Philip`> gsnedders: Plenty of things have failed even more badly because the first release of a reader was written too carefully and correctly and took too long to write and didn't have enough exciting features (e.g., the web's competitors) :-p
  199. # [11:57] * Joins: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb)
  200. # [11:58] <hdworak> thank you for your time for answering my questions, I do appreciate that, great channel
  201. # [11:58] <gsnedders> Philip`: Like me! I'm broken!
  202. # [11:58] <Philip`> (Those competitors have failed so badly that I can't even think of any specific examples, so I'm just assuming some must have existed)
  203. # [11:59] <gsnedders> Philip`: XHTML?
  204. # [11:59] <Philip`> gsnedders: XHTML isn't competing with the web
  205. # [12:00] <gsnedders> Philip`: True. But it's competing for the web.
  206. # [12:00] <hsivonen> Philip`: done
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  208. # [12:08] * Philip` finds a shop receipt that says "DVDs Coming Soon: ... NimÆs Island ...", and wonders where the character encoding issue got introduced
  209. # [12:10] <Philip`> hsivonen: Thanks
  210. # [12:11] <virtuelv_> hsivonen: you can mumble about trackback autodiscovery being wrong
  211. # [12:12] <virtuelv_> I'll just mumble about trackbacks being so wrong
  212. # [12:12] <virtuelv_> I had to turn support for them off globally on my sites, due to the insane amounts of spam that got through
  213. # [12:13] <Philip`> Is it the whole concept of bidirectional links that is wrong?
  214. # [12:14] <virtuelv_> no, rather the concept of untrusted bidirectional links
  215. # [12:16] * Philip` isn't sure about the concept of trust either
  216. # [12:16] <hdworak> bye
  217. # [12:16] * Parts: hdworak (n=hdworak@213.199.195.101) ("Leaving.")
  218. # [12:20] <virtuelv_> Philip`: there usually is none
  219. # [12:20] <virtuelv_> unless the trust is between two endpoints both controlled by the same entity
  220. # [12:21] <virtuelv_> or all approval of trust is manual, or (cryptographically) secure
  221. # [12:21] <virtuelv_> trackback fails in all such respects
  222. # [12:21] <annevk> man, Flickr Uploadr for the Mac sucks
  223. # [12:21] <annevk> keeps failing after a few images
  224. # [12:33] * hsivonen uses his own upload script
  225. # [12:34] <hsivonen> annevk: do you want a copy?
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  227. # [12:52] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-553bd04ec0241474)
  228. # [13:00] <annevk> hsivonen, yeah, why not
  229. # [13:00] <gDashiva> Philip`: Some cash registers here in Norway have a weird bug where lowercase norwegian letters become symbols, but uppercase ones work fine
  230. # [13:06] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  231. # [13:06] <hsivonen> annevk: emailed
  232. # [13:07] <hsivonen> annevk: you may treat the script as being under the MIT license
  233. # [13:12] <annevk> cheers
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  247. # [14:53] <gsnedders> I am insane.
  248. # [14:54] <gsnedders> Four AHs, and a H.
  249. # [14:54] <gDashiva> Almost Honorable and Honorable?
  250. # [14:54] <gsnedders> Advanced Higher and Higher
  251. # [14:54] <Philip`> Ah
  252. # [14:54] <gsnedders> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Higher and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_(Scottish)
  253. # [14:56] * annevk doesn't quite get the connection between insane and doing ok (at school, anyway)
  254. # [14:56] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  255. # [14:56] <gsnedders> annevk: No, that's what I'm doing this year. It is an insane amount of work. Nobody else in my year is doing it.
  256. # [14:56] <gsnedders> annevk: Very, very, very few people are doing four AHs anyway.
  257. # [14:56] <gDashiva> Maybe he's insane because he's not being consistent and doing 5 AH?
  258. # [14:58] <gsnedders> No, because I'm doing too much :)
  259. # [14:58] <gsnedders> But also because my name is gsnedders, therefore by definition I am insane.
  260. # [14:59] <annevk> makes perfect sense indeed
  261. # [15:00] <gDashiva> gsnedders: You have to rephrase your statement in lisp to qualify as patently insane
  262. # [15:01] <gsnedders> gDashiva: jfhaksdsfjkhdshjkdsf
  263. # [15:03] * Philip` wonders who collects the royalties on the insanity patent
  264. # [15:03] <gsnedders> Philip`: Nobody — there's too much prior art
  265. # [15:05] <gDashiva> Are you implying artists are insane?
  266. # [15:06] <gsnedders> All art is insanity.
  267. # [15:08] <jcranmer> bah, I'm in my first class 95% of which will be review
  268. # [15:09] * gsnedders goes back tomorrow
  269. # [15:09] * gsnedders ought to type up a computing project proposal
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  296. # [18:57] <takkaria> grr, oo.org spreadsheet is so far inferior to excel I don't know how anyone can switch from one to the other
  297. # [19:02] <hsivonen> takkaria: VBA in Excel is the big Windows lock-in these days
  298. # [19:04] <takkaria> I just mean the UI and graphing tools
  299. # [19:04] <takkaria> the kinds of things I used to use VBA for I can normally manage on the commandline
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  319. # [20:20] * maikmerten is now known as maik|eat
  320. # [20:25] <gDashiva> webapps is nick confusion waiting to happen... AnnB, ArtB, AdamB, and anne and arve_ to boot :)
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  327. # [20:50] <Philip`> gDashiva: You should encourage them to each prepend a random letter to their name for disambiguation
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  333. # [21:12] <jgraham> Adobe just sent me an email with no text but with a PDF attachment... containing nothing but the adobe logo and some text.
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  363. # [23:21] <Hixie> wow
  364. # [23:21] <Hixie> just... wow
  365. # [23:21] <Hixie> fundamentalism has eached public-html in force.
  366. # [23:23] <gavin_> I find it kind of entertaining, actually
  367. # [23:23] <gavin_> I enjoy reading boris' arguments
  368. # [23:25] <Hixie> james, job, anne, and boris appear to be the voices of sanity in a sea of crazy
  369. # [23:25] <annevk> and hsivonen on #html-wg :)
  370. # [23:26] <roc> which thread are we talking about?
  371. # [23:26] <Hixie> it utterly baffles me that these people are being serious
  372. # [23:26] <gavin_> roc: "flickr and alt"
  373. # [23:30] <Hixie> oooh, squee! a win for the new event loop stuff. It allows a really easy fix for a problem that might have been a bitch to write up the fix for.
  374. # [23:31] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  375. # [23:32] <roc> heh
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  381. # [23:35] <roc> once again I think the confusion is that people think HTML5 has the force of law
  382. # [23:36] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@66-7-230-34.static-ip.telepacific.net)
  383. # [23:36] <roc> maybe one of these people will go to court and get HTML5 non-conformance declared a violation of the ADA. Wouldn't that be exciting
  384. # [23:37] <Hixie> i hope i'm a witness in that court case
  385. # [23:37] <Hixie> so that i can help make that law pass
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  387. # [23:37] <Hixie> i'll then carefully change html5 to require everytone to pay me $5 a day
  388. # [23:38] <annevk> did anyone see an e-mail about https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=448674 ?
  389. # [23:39] * annevk didn't
  390. # [23:40] <roc> it's completely obvious
  391. # [23:40] <roc> I'll send an email about it if you like
  392. # [23:41] <annevk> prolly good as it's not part of the spec now
  393. # [23:41] <Philip`> It's inconsistent with the spec's requirements for animated images (like animated GIF and APNG)
  394. # [23:41] <Philip`> (since the spec requires the poster frame or first frame to be rendered, I think)
  395. # [23:43] <roc> was there an email when Opera added SVG element support there?
  396. # [23:43] <roc> because I've got some questions about that :-)
  397. # [23:43] <annevk> yeah, I e-mailed
  398. # [23:43] <roc> ok cool
  399. # [23:43] <annevk> to public-html iirc
  400. # [23:43] <annevk> so might not have reached you, dunno
  401. # [23:43] <roc> oh
  402. # [23:43] <roc> dear
  403. # [23:44] <roc> hmm
  404. # [23:44] <roc> sigh
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  406. # [23:47] <roc> thank goodness we're open source :-)
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  411. # Session Close: Tue Aug 19 00:00:00 2008

The end :)