/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-08-19 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:10] <Philip`> "what's the poing?" - I have often wondered that
  10. # [00:13] <annevk> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22what's+the+poing?%22
  11. # [00:16] <_Xenos> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&hs=SkX&defl=en&q=define:poing
  12. # [00:16] <_Xenos> "a closed hand" seems to be the #1 definition
  13. # [00:22] <gavin_> heh
  14. # [00:22] <gavin_> that's french
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  47. # [01:14] <Hixie> i wonder how i should handle the relative order of events fired on a <video> element when it has a pending load() about to start
  48. # [01:15] <Hixie> i mean, if it takes 250ms to get around to calling load(), and timeupdate has fired since that load() was queued
  49. # [01:15] <Hixie> should i just discard all those events?
  50. # [01:16] <Hixie> we can't very well delay the load() until we've dealt with all the timeupdate events, we might just end up generating more
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  68. # [03:09] <Hixie> wow, this alt discussion just gets more and more asinine
  69. # [03:10] <Hixie> luckily since none of the recent posts seem to actually be about the spec, i probably don't have to actually respond to any of the recent ones
  70. # [03:10] <Hixie> (the ones steven sent near the start of the thread are actual useful feedback that needs replies, obviously)
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  86. # [06:18] <Hixie> roc: the idea is that the bounding box height is used to set the height, at which point it can't be scrolled, since all the content is visible
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  88. # [06:20] <roc> even if, say, the iframe element has a CSS max-height?
  89. # [06:21] <roc> I have to admit I'm a bit confused about how to compute this bounding box
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  91. # [06:25] <roc> it seems we're supposed to compute the bounding box of everything that's rendered, ignoring viewport clipping ... but what about completely transparent elements? elements with width 0 but nonzero height?
  92. # [06:25] <roc> Should we just use the area that we would permit scrolling to, assuming the viewport had scrollbars?
  93. # [06:26] <roc> that might work, although since we don't allow scrolling up to see content above the top of the viewport, it doesn't quite jive with your answer about having to include content that overflows vertically above in the bounding box
  94. # [06:27] <Hixie> i guess it is pretty complicated :-)
  95. # [06:27] <roc> using the height of the root element seems a lot simpler
  96. # [06:27] <Hixie> originally i went this way because it was the route you suggested in the mozilla bug on the topic :-)
  97. # [06:27] <roc> I guess I changed my mind :-)
  98. # [06:27] <Hixie> let's use the root element height then
  99. # [06:27] <roc> ok cool
  100. # [06:28] <Hixie> like i said in my last e-mail, i'm basically just waiting for your experience
  101. # [06:28] <Hixie> i don't know what the spec should say really
  102. # [06:28] <Hixie> i don't want it to be as complicated as sicking's "let's merge the DOMs" idea though
  103. # [06:28] <Hixie> that scares me
  104. # [06:28] <roc> me too
  105. # [06:28] <roc> we're not going to be doing anything except the intrinsic width/height stuff initially
  106. # [06:29] <Hixie> cool
  107. # [06:29] <roc> I don't think that level of incomplete implementation will break the feature going forward, but if that's a concern, we can make it mozSeamless or something
  108. # [06:29] <Hixie> what are you not doing?
  109. # [06:30] <roc> the stylesheet integration
  110. # [06:30] <Hixie> ah, right
  111. # [06:30] <Hixie> hmm
  112. # [06:30] <Hixie> yeah probably best to call it moz-seamless
  113. # [06:30] <Hixie> that's a pretty big difference
  114. # [06:31] <roc> ok
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  123. # [09:06] <jmb> ~
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  134. # [09:29] <BenMillard> for the IRC records, if you haven't seen it on Public-HTML the current progress of my web page research for this year is here: http://projectcerbera.com/web/study/2008/collection
  135. # [09:42] * webben_ finds the use by http://www.enableholidays.com/ (from BenMillard's list) outline-style: none; mildly depressing
  136. # [09:43] <BenMillard> that disables focus outlines, right?
  137. # [09:44] <BenMillard> I find it rather unfortunate, too
  138. # [09:45] <webben_> BenMillard: Right.
  139. # [09:45] <Hixie> http://www.hereticpress.com/Dogstar/Publishing/WebSurvey.html gives me an error message
  140. # [09:47] <BenMillard> works for me
  141. # [09:48] <Hixie> it says:
  142. # [09:48] <Hixie> Your permission to access Heretic Press has been denied.
  143. # [09:48] <Hixie> Your browser may be unidentified, you may be downloading too many files for offline viewing or are breaching copyright on digital images. Your IP address might be trying to access password protected files?
  144. # [09:48] <Hixie> You may have been unfairly excluded from access. Sorry.
  145. # [09:48] <BenMillard> I'm using Firefox 2.0.0.16 on Windows XP
  146. # [09:50] <webben_> Hixie: wfm in Lynx and OmniWeb
  147. # [09:50] <Hixie> oh well
  148. # [09:51] <gDashiva> At least they acknowledge false positives may happen :)
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  150. # [09:52] <BenMillard> Hixie, do you have scripting disabled?
  151. # [09:52] <BenMillard> looking at the source code, the error you gave is placed in a <noscript> element near the start
  152. # [09:53] <BenMillard> the pages are built in a very weird way...maybe I should study them :P
  153. # [09:54] <BenMillard> it has 23 <link rel> elements, many seem to be using made-up rel values
  154. # [09:55] <BenMillard> 23 <link rel> elements pointing to related documents, I mean
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  171. # [11:37] <Hixie> ok, the spec now defines an event loop mechanism
  172. # [11:37] <Hixie> and that is used throughout whenever asynchronous behaviour is involved
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  174. # [11:41] <Hixie> i wonder how the es-future work is going to do opt-in with javascript: urls
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  177. # [11:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: do I guess correctly that you are not a fan of opt-in?
  178. # [11:46] <Hixie> yes.
  179. # [11:46] <Hixie> well no
  180. # [11:47] <Hixie> i'm specifically not a fan of out-of-band opt-in
  181. # [11:47] <Hixie> that is, i have professional reservations about out-of-band opt-in
  182. # [11:47] <Hixie> i also have personal reservations about any kind of opt-in, but that's just a personal preference
  183. # [11:48] <Hixie> out-of-band opt-in as far as i am concerned is a complete non-starter. for example, it means that you can never update an existing widely deployed script to use
  184. # [11:48] <Hixie> the new features
  185. # [11:49] <Hixie> e.g. google couldn't on-the-fly use new features in the google analytics scripts
  186. # [11:53] <Philip`> Gecko supports most of the new JS features without any opt-in; you only need opt-in for new keywords
  187. # [11:54] <Hixie> yeah
  188. # [11:54] <Hixie> so silly
  189. # [11:54] <Philip`> (so it should only change the behaviour of scripts that didn't compile under previous versions of the language)
  190. # [11:55] <Hixie> anyway, bed time
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  192. # [11:56] <virtuelv_> Hixie: any particular reasoning behind the odd camelcasing of navigator.onLine?
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  196. # [12:01] <annevk> virtuelv_, ask Microsoft
  197. # [12:02] <virtuelv_> heh
  198. # [12:02] <virtuelv_> that was an answer at least
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  202. # [12:26] * hsivonen doesn't like it when in a public bug tracker fanboys try to explain how the product doesn't suck and the reporter should jump through hoops instead
  203. # [12:26] <hsivonen> (remark not related to any HTML bug tracker bug)
  204. # [12:35] <gDashiva> Don't you know they're doing you a service by letting you help improve the product? ;)
  205. # [12:36] * gDashiva groans at Dr. Hoffman getting started on poetry markup again
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  221. # [14:19] <jcranmer> "The W in WHATWG stands for..." shouldn't that be "the first W" ?
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  224. # [15:24] * jgraham wonders if it's worth dragging up the fact that WCAG is only chartered to address the needs of users with disabilities whereas HTML has to work for a wider range of people
  225. # [15:26] <hsivonen> jgraham: yes, if you think it's worthwhile to touch the subject matter in general
  226. # [15:27] <jgraham> hsivonen: That's what I can't decide. I don't think I will be very popular...
  227. # [15:27] <jgraham> (but perhaps it needs to be said)
  228. # [15:29] <hsivonen> PT(W) completely missed the point of my question
  229. # [15:30] <Philip`> Then people might say that alt is primarily an accessibility feature so it needs to address the needs of users with disabilities and therefore WCAG is the right place to do that
  230. # [15:30] <gDashiva> I am amazed, over and over, at how little faith they have in WCAG
  231. # [15:31] <hsivonen> gDashiva: have you read WCAG 2.0? If you have, do *you* have faith in it?
  232. # [15:31] <gDashiva> hsivonen: No, but then I don't consider it a good idea either
  233. # [15:32] <gDashiva> (My first introduction to it was Joe Clark's article, and I haven't seen anything to dispute it)
  234. # [15:33] * Quits: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb)
  235. # [15:37] <jgraham> Philip`: It's not just an accessibility feature though. It's also needed or e.g. text-only browsers
  236. # [15:37] <jgraham> s/or/for/
  237. # [15:38] <gDashiva> Are balloons 'moored' when landed or is there a different verb?
  238. # [15:38] <hsivonen> gDashiva: it's not quite as bad as it used to be
  239. # [15:38] <hsivonen> gDashiva: it's still bad, though
  240. # [15:38] <Lachy> othermaciej, yt?
  241. # [15:39] <gDashiva> hsivonen: Bad enough that you might be better off with the samurai errata instead?
  242. # [15:40] <Philip`> gDashiva: http://www.balloonlife.com/publications/balloon_life/9608/images/tetherm.gif shows a "MOORED" balloon, so that sounds reasonable
  243. # [15:40] <Philip`> (assuming it is actually moored, not just sitting on the ground because it's too heavy to float)
  244. # [15:40] <hsivonen> gDashiva: bad enough that the WG chose to produce exegesis documents themselves, because the spec itself is not suitable for mortals to interpret on their own
  245. # [15:41] <gDashiva> Philip`: Good enough, thanks
  246. # [15:41] <gDashiva> I'm anticipating a new category of spec writers, the ones sitting in the balloon moored on top of the ivory tower
  247. # [15:45] <Philip`> jgraham: Indeed, but it sounds like that'd possibly just shift the arguments to go in a different direction, rather than actually resolving anything
  248. # [15:46] <Lachy> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080819-mozilla-drags-ie-into-the-future-with-canvas-element-plugin.html
  249. # [15:46] <Philip`> How would you make a whole tower out of ivory, unless you poached one of the Discworld elephants?
  250. # [15:46] <gDashiva> Philip`: That's what we've been doing all along
  251. # [15:47] <gDashiva> One person agrees to one resolution, and then another one picks up a different end and starts it all over again
  252. # [15:47] <jgraham> Philip`: Well the point that I may or not make is that you end up with different conformance requirements if your only goal is to support the disabled compared to those you end up with if your goal is to support everyone
  253. # [15:47] <gDashiva> I'm sure every single person on the list has said "Yeah, that would work" to at least one suggestion
  254. # [15:47] <gDashiva> But they never do it to the same one
  255. # [15:48] <jgraham> e.g. WCAG seems to forbit publishing James Joyce's Uylsses in an unaltered form
  256. # [15:48] <jgraham> s/forbit/forbid/
  257. # [15:50] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  258. # [15:50] <Philip`> Lachy: Why do people think Adobe releasing an ActionScript VM as open source has any relation to making it not totally unrealistic that Adobe would distribute Mozilla's canvas plugin with Flash? That part of the article seems totally irrelevant to me...
  259. # [15:51] <jgraham> also the WCAG people still seem to have the attitude that people should be prepared to put an unlimited amount of effort into accessibility despite the evidence that this is not true. Designing around this assumption doesn't help accessibility but does have negative consequences on people's perception of the value of conformance requirements
  260. # [15:51] <Lachy> Philip`, I have no idea
  261. # [15:52] <Philip`> (and the rest of the article is just rephrasing the three-week-old blog post)
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  263. # [15:52] <Lachy> I didn't see the 3 week old blog post before
  264. # [15:52] <Philip`> You need to subscribe to more people's blog feeds :-)
  265. # [15:53] <Lachy> I'm probably on too many already. It's difficult to keep up with everything
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  267. # [16:03] * hsivonen wonders if the whole content area of IE could be taken over by Gecko-as-ActiveX
  268. # [16:07] * hsivonen sees http://starkravingfinkle.org/blog/2006/12/xule-what-if/
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  270. # [16:12] <Philip`> Combining the web-compatibility of Gecko with the UI of IE? That sounds like a fantastic idea
  271. # [16:12] <gDashiva> How long does an internet argument have to last before you can stop assuming ignorance and start assuming malice?
  272. # [16:15] <jgraham> gDashiva: I thought most people assumed that from the start ;)
  273. # [16:20] <Lachy> is there anyone here who understands and can explain how DOMImplementation.getFeature() and Node.getFeature() in DOM3Core are supposed to work?
  274. # [16:22] <takkaria> gDashiva: given the length of the alt thread, I'd say at least a few years
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  276. # [16:28] <Lachy> JohnResig, yt?
  277. # [16:29] <JohnResig> Lachy: what's up
  278. # [16:29] <Lachy> JohnResig, the selectors api test suite needs tests for hasFeature() and getFeature()
  279. # [16:30] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip75.unival.com)
  280. # [16:30] <Lachy> I'm not exactly sure what getFeature() is supposed to do, besides return a copy of the object itself if the feature is implemented
  281. # [16:30] <Lachy> and if that's all it's meant to do, then it seems quite useless
  282. # [16:31] <Lachy> and Node.isSupported() too
  283. # [16:32] <Lachy> and probably getDOMImplementation() too
  284. # [16:32] <Lachy> and getDOMImplementationList()
  285. # [16:32] * Lachy wishes he didn't add a feature string. I didn't realise it would complicate so many things :-(
  286. # [16:33] <JohnResig> Lachy: could you come up with a list of what exactly is supposed to be tested?
  287. # [16:36] <Lachy> JohnResig, I'm mailing public-webapps about it now
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  289. # [16:41] <Lachy> JohnResig, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/0436.html
  290. # [16:43] <JohnResig> Lachy: what feature/version strings should I be checking for?
  291. # [16:45] <Lachy> see the spec
  292. # [16:46] <Lachy> "Selectors-API", "1.0"
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  297. # [17:32] <takkaria> argh, someone talking about it being a moral duty to the web to produce valid markup
  298. # [17:34] <Philip`> We need to define some HyperText Morality Laws to enforce that
  299. # [17:36] <takkaria> I'm not sure there's enough demand for that spec :)
  300. # [17:37] <Philip`> Lack of demand doesn't mean we don't have a moral obligation to write it
  301. # [17:38] <takkaria> true enough
  302. # [17:39] <hsivonen> a moral duty to use an html5 validator could be good for me
  303. # [17:39] <hsivonen> if others had the duty that is
  304. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: fwiw, I notice that the v.nu schemas define ol.elem.phrase, ul.elem.phrase, and dl.elem.phrase patterns -- but those are never actually referenced by any defines
  305. # [17:40] <takkaria> hsivonen: it could be good for you too if you used AdSense :)
  306. # [17:41] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I left those around expecting Hixie to allow a <span> hack for doing phrase-level lists
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  308. # [17:44] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ah, I see
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  313. # [18:29] <hober> I wonder why Sunava always says "HTML 5.0". Where did the ".0" come from?
  314. # [18:31] <gDashiva> Maybe it's a microsoft thing?
  315. # [18:32] <gDashiva> If you're always doing minor releases, it might become a habit to attach .0
  316. # [18:32] <Lachy> hober, 5.0 == 5.
  317. # [18:33] <Lachy> it's probably just an assumption based on the fact that it was HTML 2.0, 3.0, 3.2, 4.0 and 4.01 before.
  318. # [18:37] * gDashiva wonders about the logic going on
  319. # [18:38] <gDashiva> Maybe something like "If it's easy, it's too easy. Too easy is bad. Accessibility isn't bad. Therefore easy means it's not accessible!"
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  324. # [18:55] <othermaciej> Lachy: yes?
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  326. # [19:08] <Lachy> othermaciej, someone at Opera was wondering what the licencing is for WebKit's testcases, like these. http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/LayoutTests/fast/css/ Do you know?
  327. # [19:09] <othermaciej> I guess it's not always clearly stated in the test case
  328. # [19:09] <othermaciej> I think the intent is for the test suite to be BSD licensed, other than test cases from external sources
  329. # [19:10] <Lachy> ok, that makes sense, since the rest of webkit is BSD or LGPL
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  346. # [20:13] <anne_mibbit> jgraham, where shall we meet?
  347. # [20:13] <jgraham> anne_mibbit: Dunno.
  348. # [20:13] * anne_mibbit is in cambridge now, at "Cats"
  349. # [20:13] <jgraham> Did we decide when we were meeting?
  350. # [20:14] <anne_mibbit> I thought today :)
  351. # [20:14] <jgraham> Oh, I didn't realise that we had decided that. Does Philip` know?
  352. # [20:14] * Quits: hdh0 (n=hdh@118.71.125.225) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  353. # [20:14] <jgraham> Philip`: ^^ that was aimed at you
  354. # [20:15] <jgraham> I can wonder into town, I guess
  355. # [20:15] <anne_mibbit> I'm not really sure where the rest of the CSS gang is and I need some food
  356. # [20:16] <anne_mibbit> quite a long trip to get here
  357. # [20:16] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.126.154)
  358. # [20:16] <jgraham> OK I will come in
  359. # [20:17] <anne_mibbit> wait, where are you going to?
  360. # [20:17] <anne_mibbit> hmm
  361. # [20:18] <jgraham> I could meet you outside cats I guess. Oroutside Kings which is a bit closer to where I am going and I guess better for Phillip
  362. # [20:18] <jgraham> Only one l ...
  363. # [20:18] <anne_mibbit> lets see
  364. # [20:18] <jgraham> It will take me about 30 minutes to get there
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  366. # [20:19] <anne_mibbit> where is kings?
  367. # [20:20] <anne_mibbit> oh, Kings College that is a bit further up the road?
  368. # [20:20] <jgraham> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=kings+cambridge&ie=UTF8&ll=52.207764,0.132179&spn=0.022617,0.06815&z=15&iwloc=A
  369. # [20:21] <anne_mibbit> where are looking at the same building :)
  370. # [20:21] <anne_mibbit> s/where/we/
  371. # [20:21] <anne_mibbit> ok, I'll go there in 10 minutes
  372. # [20:22] <jgraham> OK, I'll meet you outside the front gate, by the odd-shaped post box
  373. # [20:22] * jgraham leaves
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  376. # [20:23] <anne_mibbit> Philip`, ^^
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  385. # [20:30] <gsnedders> anne_mibbit: I'd say it'd take maybe two or three minutes to walk there from Cat's, FYI
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  387. # [20:32] <anne_mibbit> anyway, got to go
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  413. # [21:16] <zcorpan> Hixie: #seekUpdate says The user agent must queue a task to queue a task to ...
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  427. # [22:13] <Philip`> anne, jgraham: Oh, I thought people had said Thursday or Friday or something, not today
  428. # [22:14] <Philip`> and I can't make it now
  429. # [22:16] <Philip`> (jgraham: By the way, I've moved house since we last met and now I live on pretty much exactly the opposite side of King's, though still about the same distance away so it wouldn't actually make much difference)C
  430. # [22:17] <Philip`> (Um, that's a peculiar sequence of characters on the end there)
  431. # [22:17] * Philip` blames his intermittent wireless disconnections
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  458. # [23:40] * Hixie replies to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Aug/0114.html
  459. # [23:41] <Hixie> i wish i understood more of what Al said
  460. # [23:41] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Aug/0118.html is my reply
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  465. # [23:55] <webben> Hixie: Isn't Al's point about not bothering referring to mass photo uploaders who don't bother to provide text equivalents? His stuff about the two agents is simply that it's only by considering the mass upload photo site web developers are agents in isolation that one can shunt this not bothering outside the remit of the spec.
  466. # [23:56] <webben> Hixie: Seems to me people regular pop up to say they can't be bothered to provide text equivalents for all their photos on Flickr.
  467. # [23:56] <webben> (in the various threads about alt)
  468. # [23:57] <Hixie> but the author in that case is flickr, not the uploader
  469. # [23:58] <Hixie> the uploader is just a user
  470. # [23:58] <webben> Hixie: I think that's a distinction Al's questioning.
  471. # [23:59] <Hixie> i doubt it, that would be crazy
  472. # [23:59] <webben> how would it be crazy
  473. # [23:59] <webben> let's say you have an interface that provides a box in which i enter text
  474. # [23:59] <webben> and then that text is dumped out in some HTML
  475. # [23:59] <webben> are you really saying I'm not the author of the text?
  476. # Session Close: Wed Aug 20 00:00:00 2008

The end :)