/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-08-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Aug 23 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  17. # [00:50] <Lachy> OMG, Stargate Atlantis is ending at the end of season 5 and move on to straight-to-DVD movies
  18. # [00:50] <Hixie> wow, i hadn't realised how much research we actually had here for this alt="" thing
  19. # [00:50] <Lachy> and Stargate Universe has been confirmed for next year
  20. # [00:50] <Hixie> sweet
  21. # [00:50] <Lachy> http://gateworld.net/news/2008/08/wright_iatlantisi_is_going_out_o.shtml
  22. # [00:51] <Hixie> i can't go to gateworld.net
  23. # [00:51] <Lachy> SPOILERS: http://gateworld.net/news/2008/08/istargate_universei_has_a_go.shtml
  24. # [00:51] <Lachy> oh
  25. # [00:51] <Hixie> i get spoilt every single time
  26. # [00:51] <Lachy> the first link doesn't contain any spoilers about the plot, it just talks about why they're ending the series now and changing to movies
  27. # [00:52] <Xenos> Half the heroes die
  28. # [00:53] * Quits: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb)
  29. # [00:53] <Lachy> liar!
  30. # [00:53] <Hixie> Lachy: i bet there's something in some image in a sidebar somewhere that's a spoiler for something (e.g. future episode titles, guest star for next week, etc)
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  33. # [00:56] <Lachy> it also says there's also going to be a new computer game called Stargate Worlds
  34. # [00:57] <Lachy> yeah, it has the name of a future episode in the sidebar
  35. # [00:57] <Hixie> see :-)
  36. # [00:57] <Lachy> it's tonghts episode title
  37. # [00:57] <Hixie> oh hey today is friday!
  38. # [00:57] <Hixie> woot!
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  40. # [00:59] <Lachy> yep, I just waiting for it to air, so I can download the episode in about 4 hours
  41. # [01:00] <Hixie> i'll have to see it tomorrow, sadly, iTunes doesn't let me download it until about 3am
  42. # [01:00] <Hixie> very annoying
  43. # [01:00] <Lachy> iTunes doesn't have stargate available in either Australia or Norway, and they're the only stores I can buy from
  44. # [01:00] <Lachy> so I have to use usenet
  45. # [01:01] <Lachy> but I get to see it in 1080p
  46. # [01:01] <Lachy> I found that itunes quality is a bit too low
  47. # [01:01] <Hixie> yeah
  48. # [01:01] <Hixie> well sadly my mac mini couldn't handle HD anyway :-)
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  51. # [01:02] <Lachy> don't you have a faster machine to watch it on?
  52. # [01:03] <Lachy> btw, do you strip the DRM from your itunes purchases so you can watch them wherever you like?
  53. # [01:03] <Hixie> i could watch it on the laptop, but connecting the laptop to the cinema display and the audioengine speakers is a bitch, so i don't bother
  54. # [01:03] <Hixie> i haven't found a way to losslessly strip the DRM sadly
  55. # [01:03] <Lachy> Requiem 1.7.3 works
  56. # [01:04] <Lachy> do you want a copy?
  57. # [01:05] <Lachy> whoever wrote it actually reverse engineered the way iTunes decrypts them, so it's completely lossless
  58. # [01:05] <Hixie> oooh, never heard of it! sure!
  59. # [01:05] <Hixie> that would be awesome
  60. # [01:05] <Hixie> ian@hixie.ch
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  62. # [01:10] <Lachy> if you need any help with it, read this forum thread http://hymn-project.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2494 and the FAQ http://hymn-project.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2615
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  150. # [06:39] <Hixie> heh maybe we should adopt role="" for <img> just to make it harder to adopt over the role spec should anyone propose we do that later :-P
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  179. # [13:53] <hsivonen> hmm. I think either my parser or Jing has a memory leak...
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  206. # [17:18] <Dashiva> I see nothing has changed on public-html today either
  207. # [17:18] <gsnedders> Change is over-rated.
  208. # [17:19] <hsivonen> I hope Change Congress doesn't depend on RDF
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  219. # [20:03] <gsnedders> jgraham: Nice email :)
  220. # [20:03] <gsnedders> jgraham: (your latest on public-html)
  221. # [20:05] <Philip`> Nicer if it didn't end with a paragraph saying "I" and look like it was sent prematurely :-)
  222. # [20:05] <gsnedders> That's true :)
  223. # [20:06] <jgraham> Philip`: I just noticed that. I wonder what I was going to write there
  224. # [20:08] <jgraham> I wasn't sure if I had made my point clearly so I kept it as a draft for a while. Then I realised that I may as well just send it
  225. # [20:26] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Remote closed the connection)
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  227. # [20:30] * webben_ is still keen on seeing a clear explanation of what the goal of HTML5 conformance is beyond weakly protecting future extension points. (The main purpose of HTML 4.01 conformance seems to have been a common core of interoperability.)
  228. # [20:33] <Philip`> webben_: Do you mean UA conformance, or author conformance, or both?
  229. # [20:33] <webben_> author conformance
  230. # [20:36] <jgraham> webben_: I think the goal is a) increasing interoperability (also in the face of future changes) b) discouraging things that are known to have bad cost/benefit
  231. # [20:37] <jgraham> But I admit I find it hard to pin down in simple terms
  232. # [20:37] <webben_> jgraham: a) is the same as protecting future extension points, or more than that?
  233. # [20:37] <jgraham> webben_: a) is also about working with existing UAs
  234. # [20:38] <webben_> hmm
  235. # [20:38] <webben_> I see.
  236. # [20:39] <webben_> so preferring features that work with Internet Explorer over features that don't?
  237. # [20:40] <webben_> roughly speaking
  238. # [20:40] <webben_> *equivalents that don't
  239. # [20:41] <webben_> Why do things that have bad cost/benefit ratios need to be discouraged by conformance rules?
  240. # [20:41] <webben_> assume it's not an interoperability issue
  241. # [20:41] <webben_> *assuming
  242. # [20:42] <Philip`> Perhaps so that validators will alert authors when they make a mistake and do those bad cost/benefit things
  243. # [20:42] <jgraham> (for an example of b, discouraging presentational markup seems to be one of the goals of HTML5 conformance yet, for an author aware of the issues presentational markup need not have an adverse effect. It's just that sometimes it's easier to say "don't play with guns" than to stand by and watch people blow their own feet off)
  244. # [20:43] <webben_> so the cost/benefit ratio changes from one authoring situation to another?
  245. # [20:43] <webben_> but the conformance should be geared to help newbie authors?
  246. # [20:45] <jgraham> webben_: Not necessarily just things that work in IE. Consider an attribute that takes a date. It's good for consistency and readability if everyone adopts the same syntax without relying on the funky parsing that browsers have to do; allowing any random string that could be converted into a date would have no benefits
  247. # [20:45] <jgraham> So sometimes it's about reducing choice
  248. # [20:46] <jgraham> (which is usually a good thing as long as you're not taking away functionality. indeed it often is if you are)
  249. # [20:46] <webben_> jgraham: Sounds very much like the arguments for requiring attributes to be quoted.
  250. # [20:47] <jgraham> webben_: Sure. I don't think those arguments are unreasonable. OTOH, I don't think they're necessarily strong enough to warrant making the change
  251. # [20:48] <jgraham> I guess if there was a lot of evidence of authors doing the wrong thing because they weren't quoting attributes, it would be a good change
  252. # [20:48] <webben_> jgraham: you mean because there's a counterbalancing benefit (slightly fewer bytes/less typing)?
  253. # [20:48] <jgraham> webben_: Yeas
  254. # [20:49] <jgraham> s/Yeas/Yeah/ :)
  255. # [20:49] <Philip`> jgraham: There is evidence - see <meta charset>, and the very common garbage attributes that come from unquoted keyword/description strings
  256. # [20:50] <webben_> isn't there a danger in making validators throw errors over mere consistency and readability?
  257. # [20:50] <webben_> (in that it becomes, perhaps, harder to migrate old content and maintain new conforming content, given common authoring practices atm)
  258. # [20:51] <webben_> to put it another way, is it a problem to lump in "stuff that arguably makes HTML maintenance harder" with stuff that harms end-users?
  259. # [20:51] <jgraham> Who gains if the date 2008-08-23 can also be conformingly written aa2008--08:23--?
  260. # [20:52] <webben_> in the same category of error.
  261. # [20:52] <jgraham> (I have no idea if that would parse in HTML5 btw; it was random :) )
  262. # [20:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: No, it wouldn't.
  263. # [20:52] <webben_> jgraham: If browsers /can/ parse that, anyone whose code already relies on it.
  264. # [20:53] <jgraham> webben_: I think you are underestimating the value of consistency and readability
  265. # [20:54] <jgraham> Also some things have knock on consequences
  266. # [20:54] <webben_> Just to be clear, I like consistency and readability and prefer to follow coding conventions in my own work.
  267. # [20:54] <webben_> I'm just trying to tease out the aims of conformance and validity here.
  268. # [20:54] <webben_> and whether they really make sense.
  269. # [20:55] <webben_> both in terms of end-goals and in terms of author psychology/pressures.
  270. # [20:56] <jgraham> e.g. people who have systems that depend on presentational markup are probably making their users' experience worse (usually slower to download, no caching, harder to adapt the style to different media, harder to restyle on the client side, harder to extract information from programmatically)
  271. # [20:56] <jgraham> So making those systems non conforming can be a win
  272. # [20:56] <jgraham> even thoough in the short term the author losees out
  273. # [21:05] <Dashiva> Related question: Is conformance a carrot or a stick?
  274. # [21:07] <gsnedders> Dashiva: A pineapple.
  275. # [21:08] <Dashiva> I'm not familiar with that metaphor
  276. # [21:08] <gsnedders> Nor am I.
  277. # [21:09] * Dashiva fills gsnedders' tub with glow-in-the-dark hubcaps
  278. # [21:09] <jgraham> Dashiva: It's an organic carrot, an non conforming web page is a non-organic carrot, and there is no stick.
  279. # [21:09] <gsnedders> Ooooo! Glow-in-the-dark hubcaps! Awesome!
  280. # [21:11] <jgraham> (by organic, I mean grown to organic food standards without pesticides and so on, not "made from organic molecules")
  281. # [21:12] <Dashiva> jgraham: Sure, okay. But I was talking about the concept of conformance, not a specific page. :)
  282. # [21:14] <jgraham> Dashiva: My point was that the concept of conformance is similar to the difference between an organic and a non-organic carrot
  283. # [21:14] <jgraham> Functionally either will work as a carrot
  284. # [21:14] <Dashiva> Yeah, I got that
  285. # [21:15] <Dashiva> But I'm asking if conformance is something we offer, or something we deny.
  286. # [21:21] * Parts: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.125.172) ("Konversation terminated!")
  287. # [21:43] <jgraham> Dashiva: In practice it is only something we offer
  288. # [21:44] * Joins: psa (n=yomode@71.93.19.66)
  289. # [21:44] <Dashiva> jgraham: But we'd rather it be something to deny?
  290. # [21:52] <jgraham> Dashiva: I don't think so. But I'm not quite sure what "deny" means. I understood carrot and stick.
  291. # [21:55] <jgraham> (obviously I know what "deny" means. but I don't understand what the difference between allow and deny in this context is. I was assuming allow == carrot deny == stick)
  292. # [21:56] <Dashiva> "Congratulations, you get to call yourself conforming." vs "You have failed us, so we will label you as a failure."
  293. # [21:56] * Quits: heycam (i=cam@80.187.213.56) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  294. # [21:57] <gsnedders> EPIC FAIL.
  295. # [22:00] <jgraham> Dashiva: I think the answer is "none of the above"
  296. # [22:01] <jgraham> But offer is much closer because you have to choose to test yourself for conformance
  297. # [22:02] <jgraham> We don't come round, check conformance and go "sorry you don't conform we're shutting you down"
  298. # [22:02] <Dashiva> Except if you're Target
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  300. # [22:03] * gsnedders shoots an arrow
  301. # [22:03] <jgraham> Dashiva: That was failing to comply with a11y legislation, not faliure to comply with HTML
  302. # [22:03] <jgraham> HTML could have said nothing about alt and they still could have been sued if blind users couldn't use their site
  303. # [22:04] <jgraham> (I guess XML does go "you don't conform we're shutting you down" but that's a huge mistake)
  304. # [22:05] <Dashiva> heh
  305. # [22:05] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@88.128.82.144)
  306. # [22:07] * gsnedders shuts jgraham down for not conforming to Man 1.0, requirement 3B: MUST have short hair.
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  309. # [22:12] <benoitc> hi
  310. # [22:14] <jgraham> benoitc: Hi
  311. # [22:14] <webben_> jgraham: "people who have systems that depend on presentational markup are probably making their users' experience worse (usually slower to download, no caching, harder to adapt the style to different media, harder to restyle on the client side, harder to extract information from programmatically)" ... absolutely, but those are all side issues to readability/consistency.
  312. # [22:15] <krijnh> jgraham: wouldn't your points remain the same for http://juicystudio.com/wcag/tables/complexdatatable.html ?
  313. # [22:15] <jgraham> krijnh: I hope so, otherwise I'm going to have it pointed out to me in excrutiating detail just how idiotic I am :)
  314. # [22:15] <krijnh> (I would also markup those <td class="header"> as <th>'s)
  315. # [22:17] <krijnh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0633.html
  316. # [22:17] <jgraham> webben_: I agree. I guess those are examples of conformance requirements designed to make end user's lives better by increasing the probability the the author does the thing that works best for the user
  317. # [22:17] <jgraham> krijnh: I replied
  318. # [22:18] <krijnh> That example has way too complex markup, for such a simple table, imho
  319. # [22:19] <jgraham> krijnh: Seriously
  320. # [22:20] <krijnh> Yeah :)
  321. # [22:20] <jgraham> :)
  322. # [22:21] <krijnh> <td id="col8-2a">Budgeted</td> is interesting though
  323. # [22:21] <krijnh> Should <th scope="row">Budgeted</th> work on that?
  324. # [22:25] <benoitc> mmm what is the current status of web forms 2 ? I just saw that dev of http://code.google.com/p/webforms2/ has been suspended
  325. # [22:25] <jgraham> krijnh: See http://tinyurl.com/624mko for my take on how it should work. That has just <th>Budgeted</th> (no @scope)
  326. # [22:25] <benoitc> i would like to make my website in html5 if possible so I don'tt know if it's better to use current forms standard or trying web forms 2 ?
  327. # [22:26] <webben_> benoitc: well, WF2 is designed to degrade gracefully.
  328. # [22:26] <webben_> (not that it necessarily achieves that 100%)
  329. # [22:26] <jgraham> benoitc: WF2 will be merged into HTML5 soon (the forms task force kind of died)
  330. # [22:26] <jgraham> Only Opera has any support atm though
  331. # [22:26] <gsnedders> It never came into life.
  332. # [22:27] <Lachy> LOL, Google translate is broken. I translated a page with a price list on it, and it chagned "NOK" to "U.S. $", but left the value unchanged.
  333. # [22:27] <webben_> benoitc: If you're going to try and conform to the changing requirements of HTML5, you'd want to use web forms 2.
  334. # [22:27] <krijnh> jgraham: cool!
  335. # [22:28] <benoitc> webben_: ok thanks
  336. # [22:28] <benoitc> this lib is the only one to do it or ther is another ? I found one on sf
  337. # [22:29] <webben_> benoitc: Using a library isn't the same as using web forms 2.
  338. # [22:29] <webben_> benoitc: you can use web forms 2 without using a library
  339. # [22:29] <webben_> like I said, it's designed to degrade gracefully
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  341. # [22:30] <krijnh> jgraham: can your tool also show the inspected html source?
  342. # [22:30] <webben_> benoitc: all a library would do is try to provide the same functionality as a wf2 implementation when js is available.
  343. # [22:30] <Philip`> Lachy: I'd guess that's a danger of Google's apparent statistical model of translation, since it recognises when languages use different words for the same concept but fails to understand the more subtle differences in meanings, so it gets more false positives than a more human-based approach
  344. # [22:31] <benoitc> ok i see thanks
  345. # [22:31] <benoitc> will try to get further before coming with any question :)
  346. # [22:32] <benoitc> I would like to use any js lib to emulate behaviour off new features anyway
  347. # [22:35] <jgraham> krijnh: Not at the moment.
  348. # [22:36] <krijnh> jgraham: would be handy, imho
  349. # [22:36] * Philip` was just about to ask precisely the same question, having failed to notice krijnh ask it
  350. # [22:36] <jgraham> Well it should be trivial to add but on the other hand I should be spending less time at the moment doing this not more :)
  351. # [22:36] <krijnh> Would also easily show "that we're able to markup data tables accessibly"
  352. # [22:37] <krijnh> Where "we" includes more people than with http://juicystudio.com/wcag/tables/complexdatatable.html
  353. # [22:37] * jgraham should note the algorithm in the tool is not the same as the one in the spec
  354. # [22:37] <krijnh> I don't care
  355. # [22:37] <jgraham> (the one in the spec doesn't allow headers to have headers)
  356. # [22:38] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip75.unival.com)
  357. # [22:38] <krijnh> Just show that it's possible, with whatever markup
  358. # [22:45] * Philip` wonders how to be sure that the table headers algorithm isn't just overfitted to the finite number of examples it was designed for
  359. # [22:48] <Hixie> i looked at a few tables, distilled the requirements, designed the algorithm, then checked the algorithms on the remainder of ben's data tables
  360. # [22:48] <Hixie> and it seemed to work ok
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  372. # Session Close: Sun Aug 24 00:00:00 2008

The end :)