/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-08-26 / end

Options:

1. # Session Start: Tue Aug 26 00:00:00 2008
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:00] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
4. # [00:00] <hsivonen> (chances are that getting the core to run on CLR would be very easy)
5. # [00:01] <roc> IKVM.NET is pretty good, it should just run your Java code
6. # [00:02] <hsivonen> roc: yeah, I was thinking that IKVM.NET would probably compile the core OK
7. # [00:02] <annevk> (which is based on geranium)
8. # [00:03] <hsivonen> roc: a proper package would need a .Net-compatible tree builder and a port of all the charset stuff
9. # [00:03] <roc> I see
10. # [00:03] <hsivonen> (or for the charset stuff, compiling ICU4J for CLR while at it)
11. # [00:04] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-a86763d150914544)
12. # [00:10] * annevk didn't know about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales (I thought it was a US-UK thing)
13. # [00:10] * Joins: othermaciej__ (n=mjs@17.244.1.145)
14. # [00:10] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@g227185134.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15. # [00:10] <annevk> Netherlands uses the long scale afaict
16. # [00:10] <gsnedders> annevk: No, it isn't US v. UK at all
17. # [00:11] * hsivonen thought it was an English vs. other European languages thing
18. # [00:11] <annevk> gsnedders, well, "not at all" is a bit of an overstatement, according to Wikipedia at least it was known as such for quite a while
19. # [00:12] <gsnedders> It goes back further than that, because the US used to long scale for a long time
20. # [00:12] <gsnedders> For most of its existence, in fact
21. # [00:12] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@f048225090.adsl.alicedsl.de)
22. # [00:14] * Joins: aboodman3 (n=aboodman@nat/google/x-84025b129fb05bcc)
23. # [00:14] * aboodman3 is now known as aboodman
24. # [00:15] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-3e1abf108abfb5d7) ("The computer fell asleep")
25. # [00:16] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-a858f5714fcd3f92)
26. # [00:17] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.180) (Nick collision from services.)
27. # [00:17] * othermaciej__ is now known as othermaciej
28. # [00:17] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@cc498817-b.emmen1.dr.home.nl) ("Disconnected...")
29. # [00:19] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
30. # [00:22] * Parts: aboodman (n=aboodman@nat/google/x-84025b129fb05bcc)
31. # [00:26] * annevk experiments with text messaging through transactions
32. # [00:27] <annevk> (ie, you give someone EUR 0,01, the minimum transaction fee, and write some message to go with it)
33. # [00:28] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@80.187.209.70) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
34. # [00:32] <Dashiva> Isn't the latency high?
35. # [00:34] <annevk> yeah, but it's funny
36. # [00:34] * annevk wonders whem spammers will fill up his back account
37. # [00:34] <annevk> when, even
38. # [00:35] <annevk> anyway, bedtime
39. # [00:35] * annevk -> bed
40. # [00:36] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.245) (Connection timed out)
41. # [00:36] * jacobolus1 is now known as jacobolus
42. # [00:36] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.245)
43. # [00:50] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.244.1.145)
44. # [00:55] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
45. # [00:56] * Joins: starjive (i=beos@213-66-217-32-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
46. # [00:57] <Dashiva> So on one hand, we're supposed to submit to PFWG, WAI, WCAG and who knows what, but on the other hand we're supposed to reinvent accessible video from scratch?
47. # [00:57] <gsnedders> Yeah.
48. # [00:58] <gsnedders> Why not?
49. # [00:58] <gsnedders> Doesn't it make perfect sense?
50. # [00:58] <Dashiva> Yeah, if your goal is to run the spec into the ground
51. # [00:58] <gsnedders> Everything should be in the HTML WG's spec and written by PFWG, WAI, and WCAG WGs
52. # [00:59] <hsivonen> Dashiva: the probability that someone asks the HTML WG to submit to the Timed Text WG of the W3C is close to 1
53. # [01:00] <Dashiva> hsivonen: Okay, but that still doesn't explain why we can't just use an accessible format
54. # [01:00] <webben> Dashiva: What one's that?
55. # [01:01] <Dashiva> A wrapper format that contains separate streams or whatnot for audio, video and fifteen types of text
56. # [01:01] <webben> Dashiva: no, I mean which format?
57. # [01:02] <webben> or formats plural, if there's lots of em
58. # [01:02] <Dashiva> I bet SMIL can do it, the monster that it is
59. # [01:02] <Philip`> You could have an ISO rip of a DVD, with subtitles and everything
60. # [01:02] <Dashiva> mkv can do it
61. # [01:03] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
62. # [01:03] <webben> are DVD captions scalable?
63. # [01:03] <webben> (visually)
64. # [01:03] <Philip`> <video src="file:///d:/"> would be a neat way to implement a DVD player
65. # [01:03] <Dashiva> Philip`: Nice match for the 'free cup holder' :)
66. # [01:03] <webben> Does <video> support SMIL?
67. # [01:04] <Philip`> webben: They're stored as text and not graphics, so the player can scale them however it wants, as far as I'm aware, if that's what you're referring to
68. # [01:04] <webben> Philip`: ah okay.
69. # [01:04] <Dashiva> webben: The video element supports whatever the browser (or one of its plugin backends) supports
70. # [01:04] <Philip`> (which is necessary so tha you can easily switch between different subtitle tracks)
71. # [01:05] <webben> Philip`: that could just be overlays (like Photoshop layers).
72. # [01:05] <gsnedders> Philip`: You don't need an empty authority at all
73. # [01:06] * webben wonders how much or little of SMIL Real, Windows Media, and QuickTime implement these days.
74. # [01:07] <gsnedders> webben: <em>little</em>
75. # [01:07] <webben> I guess browsers could just incorporate ambulant.
76. # [01:07] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
77. # [01:08] <webben> "just"
78. # [01:09] * Quits: harig (n=harig_in@85.196.122.246) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
79. # [01:12] <Dashiva> Well, the anime I watch in mkv manages to handle multiple audio tracks and multiple subtitle tracks in a single file
80. # [01:12] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
81. # [01:13] * Quits: webben_ (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) (Remote closed the connection)
82. # [01:14] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-eea8abe4fc818b68)
83. # [01:15] <greghouston> With VobSub there are several options for the subtitles, position on the screen, opacity, fadein/out ... It also looks like you can probably add more subtitle tracks to the file, though there is only one in this file that I am looking at.
84. # [01:15] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-07f3704a92f63033)
85. # [01:24] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@nat/google/x-d24fc15ab4925d6a)
86. # [01:29] * Quits: webben (n=benh@91.85.149.201) (Connection timed out)
87. # [01:30] * Quits: starjive (i=beos@213-66-217-32-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
88. # [01:32] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.180)
89. # [01:43] * Quits: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
90. # [01:43] * Joins: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb)
91. # [01:43] * Quits: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
92. # [01:44] * Joins: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb)
93. # [01:45] * Quits: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
94. # [01:45] * Joins: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb)
95. # [01:47] * Quits: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb) (Connection reset by peer)
96. # [01:47] * Joins: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@pool-70-19-45-78.ny325.east.verizon.net)
97. # [01:48] * Quits: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb) (Connection reset by peer)
98. # [01:48] * Joins: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb)
99. # [01:49] * Quits: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
100. # [01:49] * Joins: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb)
101. # [01:50] * Quits: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb) (Connection reset by peer)
102. # [01:50] * Joins: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb)
103. # [01:52] * Quits: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
104. # [01:53] * Joins: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@pool-70-19-45-78.ny325.east.verizon.net)
105. # [01:55] * Quits: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb) (Connection reset by peer)
106. # [01:55] * Joins: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@pool-70-19-45-78.ny325.east.verizon.net)
107. # [01:56] * Quits: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb) (Connection reset by peer)
108. # [01:58] * Joins: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb)
109. # [02:02] * Quits: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
110. # [02:05] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-a858f5714fcd3f92)
111. # [02:17] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-17c95b36bdfedb8d)
112. # [02:18] * Joins: starjive (i=beos@213-66-217-32-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
113. # [02:19] * Joins: hdh0 (n=hdh@118.71.124.228)
114. # [02:26] * Joins: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
115. # [02:32] <webben> am I right in a vague recollection that we have text/html html5 parsers that are faster than xml parsers?
116. # [02:33] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.123.99) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
117. # [02:35] * Quits: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
118. # [02:36] * Joins: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb)
119. # [02:36] * Quits: jeremyb_ (n=jeremyb@unaffiliated/jeremyb) (Client Quit)
120. # [02:42] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-17c95b36bdfedb8d)
121. # [02:44] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-16caa8af590c5020)
122. # [02:44] <Philip`> webben: I don't think that's currently true
123. # [02:46] <Philip`> (unless I'm misremembering what hsivonen has said in the past)
124. # [02:46] <Hixie> i don't think we have any html5 parsers that aren't paying some sort of VM tax yet do we?
125. # [02:47] <Philip`> takkaria has been writing one in plain C
126. # [02:47] <webben> just saw the XML parsing is faster claim on an internal mailing list and seemed to remember that actually not necessarily being the case from a claim here
127. # [02:48] <webben> (of course, it's difficult to tell anything in theory from actual implementations, but still)
128. # [02:48] <Philip`> It seems the only real difference is that XML parsers are more mature and more heavily optimised than HTML5 parsers
129. # [02:49] <Hixie> how is takkaria's, performance-wise?
130. # [02:49] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip75.unival.com) (".")
131. # [02:51] * Philip` has no idea
132. # [03:09] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.180) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
133. # [03:10] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.244.16.245)
134. # [03:13] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
135. # [03:14] * Quits: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-77-86-6-71.karoo.KCOM.COM) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9/2008061013]")
136. # [03:20] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-16caa8af590c5020) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
137. # [03:23] <Hixie> hsivonen: did you get any response to your feedback on WCAG2?
138. # [03:31] * Quits: doublec (n=nnchris@li5-223.members.linode.com) (Remote closed the connection)
139. # [03:38] <Hixie> i wonder where MikeSmith is
140. # [03:38] <Hixie> haven't seen him in a while
141. # [03:41] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-07f3704a92f63033) ("The computer fell asleep")
142. # [03:43] * Quits: JohnResig (n=JohnResi@74.201.254.36) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
143. # [03:48] * Joins: JohnResig (n=JohnResi@74.201.254.36)
144. # [03:50] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.244.16.245)
145. # [03:53] <takkaria> Hixie: about half as fast as libxml2's html parser
146. # [03:53] <takkaria> Hixie: IIRC it parses the HTML5 spec in about 1.3s
147. # [03:54] <Hixie> not bad, not bad
148. # [03:54] <Hixie> what platforms does it run on?
149. # [03:55] <takkaria> anything that runs C99
150. # [03:55] <takkaria> though there are some unresolved crasher bugs on RISC OS at the moment
151. # [03:56] <takkaria> runs on Linux fine, though, and I assume it'll cross-compile to Windows fairly easily
152. # [03:56] <Hixie> could it be retrofitted into libxml2 to expose the same API but with the html5 parser?
153. # [03:56] <takkaria> yeah, the browser it's being used in (NetSurf) does exactly that
154. # [03:58] <Hixie> cool
155. # [03:58] <Hixie> you should get gsnedders to use it
156. # [03:58] <Hixie> :-)
157. # [03:58] <Hixie> in spec gen
158. # [03:58] <Hixie> is there any optimisation work planned?
159. # [03:59] <takkaria> well, the tokeniser is pretty well optimised already but there are a couple of places it could be improved
160. # [03:59] <takkaria> the treebuilder is pretty much unoptimised in any way whatsoever
161. # [03:59] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@nat/google/x-d24fc15ab4925d6a) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
162. # [03:59] <takkaria> and there are some nice low-hanging fruit there
163. # [04:00] * Joins: codedread (n=schiller@c-24-13-43-191.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
164. # [04:01] <takkaria> problem with people using it at the moment is that it's a build-from-svn thing. when we have out a release with versioning and built as a shared library and things using it in things like spec-gen becomes plausible
165. # [04:01] <Hixie> ah ok
166. # [04:01] <Hixie> it's so cool that you're doing this stuff
167. # [04:02] <takkaria> well, I got summer of code funding, so I've been having a pretty good time writing it :)
168. # [04:02] <Hixie> :-D
169. # [04:03] <takkaria> my laptop broke the other day though so atm I'm somewhat offline and I've forgotten all my todolist items and things, and the profiling data I have
170. # [04:03] <takkaria> but I think about 25% of the time in the treebuilder can be shaved off without much work
171. # [04:04] <Hixie> nice
172. # [04:04] <Hixie> you should get jgraham, Philip`, hsivonen to help you out, their experience with optimising parsers is bound to suggest some things you could do
173. # [04:05] <Hixie> henri in particular has done some pretty fancy things with buffers that might have unexpected benefits
174. # [04:06] <takkaria> amusingly we found the same things with buffers
175. # [04:06] <Hixie> yeah? nice
176. # [04:06] <takkaria> Hubbub used to try and buffer only the things that needed buffering and use offsets the rest of the time but it made the code simpler and faster to just always use buffers
177. # [04:07] <Hixie> heh
178. # [04:07] <takkaria> we discovered this roughly in parallel I think
179. # [04:07] <Hixie> cool
180. # [04:08] <takkaria> I've been keeping an eye on the v.nu parser for optimisations to steal, too
181. # [04:08] <takkaria> but I've not touched the code for a week and a half and it's getting a bit hazy again :)
182. # [04:11] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@37.sub-75-210-106.myvzw.com)
183. # [04:12] <Hixie> :-)
184. # [04:15] * Parts: hdh0 (n=hdh@118.71.124.228) ("Konversation terminated!")
185. # [04:22] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
186. # [04:23] <takkaria> the alt thread makes me cry, I really did hope it would stop at some point in the last few days
187. # [04:26] <takkaria> mainly because it becomes more and more obvious that the accessibility people haven't been taking anything other people have been saying in
188. # [04:31] <takkaria> so much rhetoric, so little argument
189. # [04:35] * Joins: jacobolus1 (n=jacobolu@pool-71-119-188-52.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
190. # [04:37] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-71-119-188-52.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
191. # [04:46] * greghouston is now known as GregHouston
192. # [04:48] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@37.sub-75-210-106.myvzw.com) ("The computer fell asleep")
193. # [04:52] * Parts: GregHouston (n=ghouston@adsl-75-6-6-153.dsl.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net)
194. # [05:01] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
195. # [05:08] <Hixie> man watching usability studies is depressing
196. # [05:15] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@dsl081-073-212.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
197. # [05:19] <Hixie> so... depressing...
198. # [05:21] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@adsl-76-205-215-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
199. # [05:21] <othermaciej> is it the quality of the software that's depressing or the quality of the users?
200. # [05:22] <Hixie> hard to say
201. # [05:23] <Hixie> i mean it's always the software's fault
202. # [05:24] <Hixie> but what's depressing is the utter failure of many interactions
203. # [05:25] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@adsl-76-205-215-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
204. # [05:28] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
205. # [05:35] * Joins: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@dsl081-073-212.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
206. # [05:41] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-529804465804e57c)
207. # [05:45] <Hixie> i think blind users might just be desensitised to the sheer amount of repetition they hear
208. # [05:45] * Joins: aboodman3 (n=aboodman@dsl081-073-212.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
209. # [05:51] <Hixie> good lord
210. # [05:52] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@dsl081-073-212.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
211. # [05:59] * Quits: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@dsl081-073-212.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
212. # [06:15] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
213. # [06:17] * Quits: aboodman3 (n=aboodman@dsl081-073-212.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
214. # [06:20] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
215. # [06:31] * Joins: aboodman3 (n=aboodman@dsl081-073-212.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
216. # [06:39] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@modemcable144.140-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) ("http://www.csarven.ca/")
217. # [06:56] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
218. # [07:04] * Joins: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
219. # [07:10] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
220. # [07:11] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
221. # [07:13] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
222. # [07:30] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
223. # [07:33] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
224. # [07:43] * Quits: syp_ (n=syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
225. # [07:47] * Joins: syp_ (n=syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch)
226. # [07:57] * Quits: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
227. # [08:04] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
228. # [08:05] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
229. # [08:15] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-167-161.dsl.telstraclear.net)
230. # [08:16] <Dashiva> Is it bad that my attention just drifts away whenever someone mentions search engine indexing as a benefit of RDF?
231. # [08:19] <roc> what I don't understand is how search engines and browser are supposed to do magic things with this data while there is no central authority
232. # [08:20] <roc> is each of N user agents supposed to independently discover all M namespaces and implement their semantics?
233. # [08:20] <Dashiva> I just want to yell "It's the SEO, stupid"
234. # [08:21] <Dashiva> roc: You just download the internet and walk the graph, it's simple enough :)
235. # [08:30] <Hixie> roc: i'm always baffled as to how these people think search engines are going to use this data, given that if they did use this data, it would immediately be utterly unusable due to spammers
236. # [08:30] <Hixie> roc: i'm especially amused though when people tell me something is needed for search engines
237. # [08:30] <Hixie> hello
238. # [08:30] <Hixie> i work for google
239. # [08:31] <Hixie> how about _i_ tell you what we need, and you tell me what _you_ need
240. # [08:31] * Joins: aboodman4 (n=aboodman@dsl081-073-212.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
241. # [08:32] <roc> heh
242. # [08:33] <Hixie> Lachy: so i've found a huge problem with requiem
243. # [08:33] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM60-254-206-143.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
244. # [08:38] * aboodman4 is now known as aboodman
245. # [08:42] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
246. # [08:48] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-167-161.dsl.telstraclear.net)
247. # [08:49] * Quits: aboodman3 (n=aboodman@dsl081-073-212.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
248. # [08:53] * Joins: heycam (i=cam@88.128.87.162)
249. # [08:55] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.245) ("Ex-Chat")
250. # [08:56] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM60-254-206-143.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
251. # [09:05] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@dsl081-073-212.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
252. # [09:06] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
253. # [09:07] * Quits: codedread (n=schiller@c-24-13-43-191.hsd1.il.comcast.net) (Remote closed the connection)
254. # [09:08] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@88.128.80.210)
255. # [09:20] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g226129251.adsl.alicedsl.de)
256. # [09:39] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
257. # [09:40] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
258. # [09:48] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
259. # [09:49] <Hixie> if anyone wants to see the new draft alt="" regime before i commit it, it's at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#alt
260. # [09:51] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@cc498817-b.emmen1.dr.home.nl)
261. # [09:52] <hsivonen> Philip`: I thought DVD subtitles were bitmaps
262. # [09:53] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@88.128.80.210) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
263. # [09:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: I got a reply for my ATAG feedback. I didn't get feedback on my WCAG feedback (from the WG that is).
264. # [09:56] <Hixie> what was the ATAG feedback and what did they reply?
265. # [09:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: well, if people think they know what Google needs, people think they know what CC needs :-)
266. # [09:58] * hsivonen looks up the ATAG mail urls
267. # [09:58] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-atag2-comments/2008Aug/0000.html
268. # [09:59] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-au/2008JulSep/0072.html
269. # [09:59] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-au/2008JulSep/0073.html
270. # [09:59] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-au/2008JulSep/0074.html
271. # [09:59] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-au/2008JulSep/0075.html
272. # [09:59] <hsivonen> those are the URLs for the ATAG thread
273. # [10:00] <Hixie> man, these guideline docs are almost as vague as scripture
274. # [10:00] <hsivonen> like I said in one of the emails, I was unable to verify an interpetation of the draft by reading the draft
275. # [10:01] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM60-254-200-125.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
276. # [10:04] <hsivonen> sometimes I suspect that the guidelines are vague because the experts couldn't agree, so what got written down is something that each WG participant can see their own opinion in
277. # [10:05] <Hixie> again like scripture then...
278. # [10:05] <hsivonen> or at least I've gotten mixed interpretation from former editor and current editor
279. # [10:08] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
280. # [10:14] * Quits: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
281. # [10:21] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@host73-247-static.125-81-b.business.telecomitalia.it)
282. # [10:25] <Hixie> ok.
283. # [10:25] <Hixie> alt="" debate reply sent.
284. # [10:25] <Hixie> for me to consider further new feedback, it has to say something that hasn't been said before.
285. # [10:30] <Philip`> hsivonen: Oh, okay, you're right
286. # [10:32] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-71-119-188-52.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
287. # [10:35] * Quits: jacobolus1 (n=jacobolu@pool-71-119-188-52.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
288. # [10:40] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
289. # [10:46] <Dashiva> Hixie: Implement robot9000 for the list :)
290. # [10:47] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@88.128.81.224)
291. # [10:50] <Hixie> hah
292. # [10:50] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-4917f2e0e7b5cabd)
293. # [10:50] <Hixie> steven's recent complaints are even more insane
294. # [10:50] <Hixie> now he's complaining about my decisions before i even make them
295. # [10:53] <Dashiva> Why doesn't he just stop pussyfooting around and talk to the chairs?
296. # [10:54] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g226129251.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.1a2pre/20080825031951]")
297. # [10:54] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
298. # [10:54] <annevk> heh
299. # [10:59] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
300. # [10:59] <Dashiva> Is that museum artifact example for real?
301. # [10:59] * hsivonen tries the million URL exercise again. this time with the output going to a dedicated hard disk and gzipped on the fly
302. # [10:59] <Dashiva> Because more than anything else it just demonstrates the madness of dereferencing namespace URIs
303. # [10:59] <annevk> stop hating distributed extensibility so much
304. # [11:00] <hsivonen> Dashiva: museum people use RDF
305. # [11:00] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g226129251.adsl.alicedsl.de)
306. # [11:00] <hsivonen> Dashiva: a friend of mine was on a research group that created an ontology for museums
307. # [11:01] <Dashiva> hsivonen: Sure, but did they go around downloading random pages?
308. # [11:01] <hsivonen> I don't know.
309. # [11:02] <Dashiva> hsivonen: More specifically, Charlie deciding to dereference is the unreal part, not people putting tuples in their pages
310. # [11:02] <hsivonen> what I've heard about the ontology creation process corroborated my own guess about the process from my time at the National Archives
311. # [11:02] * virtuelv recalls the awesome presentation about rijksmuseum.nl from Dublin earlier this year
312. # [11:03] <virtuelv> (awesome, as in, someone actually did something cool with RDF)
313. # [11:08] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@88.128.81.224) (Connection timed out)
314. # [11:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: I wish someone answered my question on how well the CC URI upgrade worked with tools that existed at the time
315. # [11:10] <Philip`> "A somewhat strained analogy would be bringing
316. # [11:10] <Philip`> in representatives from all of the cultures of the world and having them
317. # [11:10] <Philip`> agree on a universal vocabulary."
318. # [11:10] <Philip`> That sounds kind of similar to agreeing on a universal character encoding, rather than having everyone invent their own independent ones
319. # [11:11] <hsivonen> Philip`: but that's not decentralized
320. # [11:12] * Quits: heycam (i=cam@88.128.87.162) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
321. # [11:13] <hsivonen> though as far as universal vocabuliaries between cultures go, English is doing pretty well with decentralized extensibility
322. # [11:14] <Philip`> hsivonen: Why not? People can decentralisedly invent and use their own character encodings, and they just need to convince their favourite tool vendors to support it, which seems easy enough for governments to do
323. # [11:15] <hsivonen> Philip`: even the Chineses government can't make software developers change the way text is represented in RAM
324. # [11:15] <hsivonen> Philip`: but the Unicode folks were able to
325. # [11:18] * Joins: billyjack (n=MikeSmit@EM119-72-17-202.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
326. # [11:22] <Hixie> hsivonen: got any early numbers regarding the validity study?
327. # [11:32] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM60-254-200-125.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
328. # [11:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: no
329. # [11:34] <jgraham> Good lord it's getting bad when Rob Burns is producing more useful comments on accessibility than the "accessiility experts"
330. # [11:35] <jgraham> hsivonen: Thanks for the bug report yesterday. Score namespaces 1 james 0
331. # [11:37] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-167-161.dsl.telstraclear.net)
332. # [11:37] <Hixie> only 1? :-)
333. # [11:38] <Dashiva> namespaces 1.<xsd:integer>
334. # [11:39] * hsivonen expects the gzipped dump of validation worker output to go to somewhere around 60 GB
335. # [11:40] <hsivonen> even though I suppress duplicate messages per URL before writing out
336. # [11:40] * annevk beat the namespaces spec a few times by getting it revised
337. # [11:40] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM60-254-241-199.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
338. # [11:41] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
339. # [11:43] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-71-119-188-52.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
340. # [11:44] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-71-119-188-52.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
341. # [11:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: at this rate, it will take 34 hours to get even the preliminary data dump
342. # [11:45] <Hixie> what's your rate?
343. # [11:46] <Philip`> hsivonen: You could try looking at fewer pages, which would make it go faster and probably wouldn't make things significantly less statistically significant :-)
344. # [11:46] <hsivonen> 465 urls per minute
345. # [11:46] <Hixie> validator.w3.org apparently deals with millions of requests per day, so you need to get to the point of being able to do the whole sample from the network in less than 24 hours. :-)
346. # [11:47] <hsivonen> now that I think about it, I started the process on the wrong HotSpot version...
347. # [11:47] <Hixie> oh that's not too bad, i thought you meant a small sample when you said "preliminary data dump"
348. # [11:47] <hsivonen> I could throw away 47 minutes now and restart it with a better JIT
349. # [11:47] <Hixie> seems wise
350. # [11:48] <Hixie> also if you're doing any console I/O, hide it, that ends up being a massive cost when i'm doing debugging runs
351. # [11:48] <Hixie> dunno if it applies to you
352. # [11:48] <hsivonen> it applies to me
353. # [11:50] <hsivonen> I print progress every 100 urls though, to avoid spending too much time printing
354. # [11:50] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@88.128.90.181)
355. # [11:50] <Hixie> that helps
356. # [11:53] * Quits: billyjack (n=MikeSmit@EM119-72-17-202.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
357. # [11:54] <zcorpan> Hixie: the current spec text on alt makes sense to me
358. # [11:54] <Hixie> woot!
359. # [11:55] <Hixie> i have 100% support from all those who have commented!
360. # [11:55] * Hixie does a little dance
361. # [11:55] <zcorpan> :)
362. # [11:55] <Hixie> sadly it can only go down from here :-(
363. # [11:55] <zcorpan> it could stay at 100%
364. # [11:55] <Hixie> that seems unlikely
365. # [11:55] * hsivonen is considering how productive it would be to rain on the parade at this point
366. # [11:55] <Hixie> :-)
367. # [11:55] <zcorpan> yes, at least if you get further comments
368. # [11:55] <Hixie> well, if i missed something important, do say
369. # [11:58] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@88.128.90.181)
370. # [11:58] <hsivonen> aargh. NPE in class loading code on the other JVM
371. # [11:59] * Philip` read the end of the email first, to see what the decision was, but that just said it was "option F", so he had to read the top of the email, which only went to option E, and so he had to end up reading the entire email to find the actual chosen solution :-(
372. # [11:59] <Hixie> Philip`: heh - you could have just read the spec diff :-P
373. # [11:59] * Hixie admits that that was partially intentional
374. # [11:59] <zcorpan> Hixie: i wonder if the captcha case could have a caption in the form of <fieldset><legend> or <th> instead
375. # [12:00] <Hixie> ooh, that's not a bad idea
376. # [12:00] <Philip`> Hixie: The spec diff looks longer than the email
377. # [12:00] <Hixie> Philip`: heh maybe
378. # [12:00] <Hixie> zcorpan: we'll see what other feedback i get, but that seems reasonable on the face of it
379. # [12:01] <Hixie> though we'd have to decide on a priority order
380. # [12:01] <Hixie> i guess it could be nearest-enclosing
381. # [12:02] <hsivonen> new this is *weird* the code that works on Sun Java 1.6 and OpenJDK 6 has broken classloader behavior on Apple's port of JDK 6
382. # [12:02] <hsivonen> aargh
383. # [12:02] <zcorpan> Hixie: yeah... and i'm sure there are cases where it wouldn't make sense
384. # [12:02] <hsivonen> Class loader issues suck
385. # [12:02] <hsivonen> NPE sucks
386. # [12:02] <hsivonen> now I have NPE in class loading
387. # [12:02] * hsivonen goes out to lunch
388. # [12:02] <Hixie> NPE?
389. # [12:02] <hsivonen> NullPointerException
390. # [12:04] <Hixie> oh
391. # [12:04] <zcorpan> Hixie: editorial: in the example listing images, i'd say " &lt;tr> &lt;th> Image &lt;th> Description" (in singular)
392. # [12:05] * Hixie sends himself an e-mail saying that
393. # [12:06] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
394. # [12:07] * Joins: cyclist (n=a@sxanth.static.otenet.gr)
395. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: found what seems to be another discrepancy in HTML5 schema vs. the spec
396. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> spec says that col element can have a span attribute
397. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> but schema does not allow span on col
398. # [12:08] <zcorpan> hey i tested <col span> in v.nu the other day
399. # [12:08] <cyclist> pls help. In the HTML5 spec it sais that block level elements inside stricly inline level elements are "not allowed".
400. # [12:08] <zcorpan> wonder why i didn't catch that it didn't validate
401. # [12:09] <cyclist> If somebody does that nontheless, what is the browser supposed to do?
402. # [12:09] <cyclist> Break the inlines around the block perhaps?
403. # [12:09] <zcorpan> cyclist: rendering-wise it's defined in css
404. # [12:10] <zcorpan> cyclist: you can even get that with conforming markup: <span>x<span style=display:block>y</span>z</span>
405. # [12:10] <annevk> cyclist, you're reading an old version of HTML5
406. # [12:10] <cyclist> yes indeed.
407. # [12:10] <annevk> cyclist, try http://whatwg.org/html5 or http://html5.org/spec
408. # [12:10] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-c0b7b4873d28a3f5)
409. # [12:10] <cyclist> the newer version defines action to be taken on the "not allowed"?
410. # [12:11] <Philip`> The newer version allows it
411. # [12:11] <cyclist> ah. ok
412. # [12:11] <Philip`> in some cases, I think
413. # [12:11] <annevk> cyclist, the newer version doesn't have block or inline level elements
414. # [12:11] <Philip`> unless I'm misremembering
415. # [12:11] <Philip`> Oh, okay
416. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I see why now.. col.attrs.span is defined but not referenced -- because the schema is missing "col.attrs &= col.attrs.span"
417. # [12:12] <zcorpan> Philip`: it doesn't allow non-phrasing flow content in phrasing content
418. # [12:12] <Hixie> cyclist: what's the exact case you are trying to do?
419. # [12:12] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@88.128.90.181)
420. # [12:13] <zcorpan> wow the spec's terminology won't be understandable to J. Author
421. # [12:13] <cyclist> write a web browser :)
422. # [12:13] <cyclist> or at least render pages
423. # [12:13] <Hixie> oh you're looking for UA behaviour, ok
424. # [12:13] <Hixie> well the parsing is defined in the parsing section of HTML5
425. # [12:13] <Hixie> and the rendering is defined by CSS
426. # [12:13] <zcorpan> "the spec doesn't allow block content in inline content" would be more understandable
427. # [12:14] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
428. # [12:14] <Hixie> annevk: any idea if opera has any feedback on the workers stuff? (in particular the latest proposal)
429. # [12:14] <Hixie> (not what the latest spec says)
430. # [12:15] <Philip`> zcorpan: I was thinking of the <a><div>... thing which I think changed, but I have no idea what terminology the spec uses for that kind of thing
431. # [12:15] <cyclist> OK. I had a really old version of HTML5. The new version passes the ball to css it seems. thanks
432. # [12:15] <zcorpan> Philip`: oh right
433. # [12:16] <Hixie> cyclist: np
434. # [12:17] * Hixie watches his cat pull down the kitten-sized cat furniture
435. # [12:18] <Hixie> she really needs to stop leaping on it
436. # [12:18] <annevk> Hixie, no, other than the feedback you already got I think we don't have anything new (nor have we debated this much)
437. # [12:20] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-4917f2e0e7b5cabd) (Connection timed out)
438. # [12:20] <zcorpan> Hixie: could the spec use the terminology "inline content" and "flow content" (and "block content" which would be flow excluding inline) instead of "phrasing"? it'd be closer to what authors use and could still be distinguished from css ("content" vs "-level")
439. # [12:20] <Philip`> You could put metal spikes on top of the furniture to keep the cat off
440. # [12:21] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
441. # [12:22] * Quits: cyclist (n=a@sxanth.static.otenet.gr) (Remote closed the connection)
442. # [12:25] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
443. # [12:26] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-167-161.dsl.telstraclear.net)
444. # [12:29] <Hixie> zcorpan: i don't want to use the word "inline"
445. # [12:29] <Hixie> Philip`: it's cat furniture! she's welcoem to use it :-P
446. # [12:29] <Hixie> just wish she'd not pull the whole thing over each time she leaps at it :-P
447. # [12:32] <Hixie> ok julian is clearly just trolling me
448. # [12:32] <annevk> and missing the point
449. # [12:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: regarding the throughput competitiveness of Validator.nu as a back end to the W3C Validator:
450. # [12:35] <hsivonen> the online version should have better throughput than this offline version
451. # [12:35] <hsivonen> the online version doesn't build a tree
452. # [12:35] <hsivonen> this offline worker does
453. # [12:38] <Hixie> ah ok
454. # [12:38] <Hixie> why the difference?
455. # [12:39] <hsivonen> what the online version does yield better throughput and is acceptable for cases where an author is using it as a tool and even tries to keep the markup sane
456. # [12:40] <Hixie> (btw if anyone read my response to manu, did it seem right? or am i insane?)
457. # [12:40] <hsivonen> however, to discover all the craziness that's going on out there, I don't want to stop at the first non-streamable error in the offline research tool
458. # [12:40] <Hixie> hsivonen: oooh, cunning
459. # [12:40] <Hixie> can't wait to see this data
460. # [12:40] <Hixie> i actually just want to see the % of pages that have zero errors :-)
461. # [12:43] * Joins: billyjack (n=MikeSmit@EM60-254-240-145.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
462. # [12:45] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.124.26)
463. # [12:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: want to see what pages have zero parser-level errors and are in stardards mode and then I want to see what we could do to make the validation layer errors go away on those pages
464. # [12:52] <hsivonen> (zero parser level errors with legacy doctype errors ignored)
465. # [12:53] <annevk> maybe legacy doctypes should become conforming HTML5 doctypes
466. # [12:54] <annevk> though this could be controversial
467. # [12:55] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM60-254-241-199.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
468. # [12:55] <hsivonen> fwiw, I'm running the parser in the survey mode, which suppresses tree builder -level doctype errors
469. # [12:56] <hsivonen> I consolidate the kind of messages that cite attribute values
470. # [12:56] <hsivonen> then I consolidate duplicate messages per URL
471. # [12:57] <hsivonen> then I log tuples that have URL, quirkiness, layer and message
472. # [12:57] <hsivonen> where quirkiness is HTML5, other Standards, almost standards or quirks
473. # [12:57] <hsivonen> and layer is parser layer or validation layer
474. # [12:58] <zcorpan> Hixie: why not?
475. # [12:58] <hsivonen> also, when an URL didn't have errors on a given layer, I log a special NO ERRORS message
476. # [13:00] <annevk> hmm, I'm going to "North Korean Flying Circus" tonight, it seems to be so new that there's no wikipedia page yet...
477. # [13:02] <Lachy> annevk, it could mean that it's just not notable enough, regardless of how new it is.
478. # [13:02] * hsivonen tries to resist a rant about the pointlessness of non-notability deletionism
479. # [13:02] <Lachy> or that it just doesn't have a page on the english wikipedia, since it's korean
480. # [13:03] <annevk> all kinds of small Dutch villages have English Wikipedia entries
481. # [13:03] <zcorpan> hsivonen: what v.nu calls "legacy doctype" can trigger standards mode; are you counting those?
482. # [13:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I'm counting them as non-HTML5 Standards mode
483. # [13:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I'm counting quirkiness from the DocumentModeHandler--not from messages
484. # [13:04] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok
485. # [13:04] * Lachy agrees the notability rules for wikipedia are a bit strict and arbitrarily applied sometimes
486. # [13:05] <annevk> I think it's just that it's quite new and so far only shown in the Netherlands
487. # [13:05] <annevk> apparently the World Premier was August 1
488. # [13:07] <Hixie> zcorpan: i want to completely avoid confusion with css
489. # [13:08] <Hixie> holy crap, 2/2 on feedback, and one of them was an accessibility person
490. # [13:10] <hsivonen> Hixie: a person creates a new document in Nvu, drags a JPEG from Finder to the blank document and saves. What does Nvu do to make the output pass a machine-administered syntax check?
491. # [13:11] <hsivonen> assuming an HTML5 version of Nvu under the new spec text
492. # [13:11] <annevk> was Hixie's "Great!" just now a disguised "+1"? :p
493. # [13:12] <zcorpan> Hixie: i understand that, but i think that authors in the wild simply aren't going to use the current spec's terminology
494. # [13:12] <zcorpan> Hixie: so it's not helping, it's just adding to the confusion
495. # [13:13] * Quits: webben_ (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-c0b7b4873d28a3f5)
496. # [13:13] <Hixie> hsivonen: i do not believe the current spec allows the editor in such a scenario to output conforming markup without further input from the user.
497. # [13:13] <zcorpan> Hixie: also, try looking up "phrasing" in wikipedia or a dictionary
498. # [13:13] <Hixie> annevk: no, i wasn't agreeing with him, i was expressing happiness. :-)
499. # [13:14] <Hixie> zcorpan: i think given time, authors will begin to use the new terminology. there's no rush here. i'm open to other terms of "phrasing" isn't any good though.
500. # [13:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you expect glazou to go along with either putting up a modal prompt or writing non-conforming output?
501. # [13:14] <zcorpan> Hixie: how about "text-level content"?
502. # [13:15] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
503. # [13:15] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
504. # [13:15] <hsivonen> class loading is such a PITA
505. # [13:15] <Hixie> hsivonen: depends. If this happens for a lot of images on the page, then Nvu could probably assume empty alt="" and just put that in, with the argument that the UI allows the user to specify the alternative text but defaults to assuming decorative images, and that it's the user's fault if the user doesn't give the right data.
506. # [13:16] <Hixie> hsivonen: if it's just a single image, but the user gives alt="" for the other images explicitly, then i'd say that for that image, maybe nvu should see if there is a header or legend that follows what the spec says now, and if not, could include an apologetic title="" attribute
507. # [13:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: or the editor could warn on output that the content isn't valid
508. # [13:17] <zcorpan> Hixie: "why doesn't this validate?" "it's not allowed to have block children of inline elements" is a common conversation. how would you say that using the spec's terminology?
509. # [13:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: (either way, accessibility is screwed if the author, as in this case, is actively avoiding helping even when they really should and could)
510. # [13:18] <Hixie> zcorpan: "You can't put a <div> in a <span>."
511. # [13:18] <Hixie> zcorpan: (or whatever)
512. # [13:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: an editor that hides the HTML file format from the user should always be able to write output that passes a machine-admistered syntax check
513. # [13:18] <hsivonen> adiministered
514. # [13:18] <hsivonen> doh
515. # [13:18] <zcorpan> Hixie: but that would only give him a fish, not teach him to fish
516. # [13:18] * hsivonen can't spell today
517. # [13:18] <Hixie> zcorpan: or "phrasing content can only contain other phrasing content, and you're putting elements in your phrasing content that aren't phrasing content" or some such
518. # [13:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: if you want writing output to proceed despite a check failing, that check belongs in a different class of checks
519. # [13:20] <Hixie> hsivonen: i think it's quite reasonable for an editor to assume images are decorative unless told otherwise, assuming the ui makes that clear
520. # [13:20] <hsivonen> so we're back to emitting alt="" silently
521. # [13:21] <Hixie> i haven't spent any time trying to cater for the case of editors where the user is actively hostile to making accessible content
522. # [13:22] <Hixie> for certain images you can do things like OCR, there's been some research in that same (q.v. e.g. webinsight)
523. # [13:22] <Hixie> s/same/area/
524. # [13:22] <hsivonen> that OCR really should be on the client side
525. # [13:23] <Hixie> certainly would be nice for reader-side uas to have ocr, yes, and that's what webinsight does actually
526. # [13:24] <Hixie> for images that are sole content of links, alt="" text can be synthesised by grabbing the title of the target page, too
527. # [13:24] <Hixie> there are various things that editors can do to silently handle hostile authors
528. # [13:24] <Hixie> but fundamentally i don't think there's a great solution. assumin decorative images will handle most images, frankly.
529. # [13:24] <Philip`> <a href="logout.cgi"><img src="logout.png"></a> - grabbing the target page's title won't work so well there
530. # [13:25] <Hixie> it doesn't work in all cases, no
531. # [13:25] <Hixie> webinsight's data suggests you can fill about 40% of images and get about a 90% success rate on those images
532. # [13:25] <Hixie> which is better than nothing
533. # [13:25] <Philip`> It doesn't just not work in all cases - it fails badly with negative consequences in some cases, so it's not safe to do it at all
534. # [13:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: my point is that you have an abstaction leak if an agent can let user input or lack thereof break the syntax of the output file format
535. # [13:25] <Hixie> this is just like these editors assuming that when you hit bold you mean bold, as opposed to important, and that when you hit font-size+1 you mean to change the style sheet, not change to a <h1>, or whatever
536. # [13:26] <Hixie> Philip`: going from no alt text to crap alt text 0.4*5% of the time and good alt text 0.4*95% of the time is better than staying with no alt text always.
537. # [13:27] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'm saying you don't have to break the syntax. you can make assumptions, just like editors do for all their other features.
538. # [13:27] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@88.128.90.181)
539. # [13:27] <Philip`> Hixie: It's not just affecting the usefulness of the alt text, if it's silently making unexpected extra HTTP requests and accidentally logs you out of the site you're on or deletes pages
540. # [13:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: this is not just like that. If the author makes a semantic error, a machine-administered check doesn't catch it
541. # [13:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm saying that editors programmed by people who object to abstraction leaks will plug the machine-detectable leaks so that they can't be machine-detected
542. # [13:28] <Hixie> Philip`: i'm not suggesting sending cookies or http auth credentials with these requests
543. # [13:29] <hsivonen> and that plugging will occur in the program code in case the user is hostile, so the code will run even when the user isn't hostile
544. # [13:29] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'm not sure which case you're referring to
545. # [13:30] <Hixie> hsivonen: why is assuming the user meant alt="" not the same as assuming the user meant font-size: 2em?
546. # [13:30] <Hixie> (as opposed to alt="Logout" or <h1>)
547. # [13:30] <Hixie> (which we presume would both be better)
548. # [13:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: I mean that if the user uses <h1> to make text bold, that's not the kind of problem programmers will plug
549. # [13:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: if the validator whines about a piece of syntax being absent, (some) programmers will make it present
550. # [13:31] <Hixie> what syntax would be absent?
551. # [13:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: alt, or legand, or <hn>
552. # [13:31] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
553. # [13:32] <Hixie> why would alt="" be absent? I'm saying to include it always.
554. # [13:32] <Hixie> i'm saying it seems legitimate to have the UA assume that images are decorative unless told otherwise, and so to give them empty alt="".
555. # [13:32] <hsivonen> Well, then you move the autogenerated junk problem to <h1>
556. # [13:32] <Hixie> (with different behaviour for images in links, e.g. fetching target page titles.)
557. # [13:33] * Joins: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-77-86-6-71.karoo.KCOM.COM)
558. # [13:33] <Hixie> wysiwyg editors with hostile authors will output pages with poor accessibility, yes
559. # [13:33] <Hixie> why is this surprising?
560. # [13:33] <hsivonen> Hixie: if you'd specified that the chain goes from <h1> to <title>, this would reduce to empty <title></title> being there
561. # [13:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: it's not
562. # [13:34] <Philip`> Hixie: That wouldn't solve the problem with <a href="logout.cgi?s=1910764e1a0f1976d"><img src="logout.png"></a>
563. # [13:34] <Hixie> hsivonen: i really don't understand
564. # [13:34] <Philip`> (...where the ?s is the session identifier)
565. # [13:34] <Philip`> (for sites that don't want to rely on cookies)
566. # [13:34] <Hixie> Philip`: why would the page author include a session identifier in a link he is putting in a wysiwyg editor??
567. # [13:35] <Hixie> oh you're talking about the client-side thing
568. # [13:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: what's surprising is that you seem to join accessibility advocates in asking lack of accessibility to be flagged by introducing an error on another layer
569. # [13:35] <Philip`> Hixie: They wouldn't, but a UA can't tell whether the link came from a WYSIWYG editor, so it's a problem if the UA tries to request the page in situations which the author didn't expect
570. # [13:36] <Hixie> Philip`: well, tell the webinsight people. i'm only suggesting it here for the editor side, the spec doesn't even suggest it for the browser side.
571. # [13:36] <Philip`> Hixie: Oh, if it's just in the editor then I guess that's safer
572. # [13:37] <Hixie> hsivonen: this isn't new
573. # [13:37] <Hixie> hsivonen: the spec has always required alt="" for all images that could posibly have it.
574. # [13:38] <Hixie> hsivonen: just like it requires using <h1> for headers, or not having a headers="" attribute point to something outside the table, or whatever
575. # [13:38] <hsivonen> making Apple's Java 6 work is too much trouble. I'l go back to Apple's Java 5
576. # [13:38] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM60-254-227-42.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
577. # [13:38] <hsivonen> now having lost more than 47 minutes of processing time
578. # [13:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: you know that those are different from the point of view of programming a WYSIWYG editor
579. # [13:39] <Philip`> hsivonen: You should make your processor incremental, so it can carry on from where it left off if it's interrupted or crashes :-)
580. # [13:40] <hsivonen> Philip`: it didn't seem worth the trouble at firts
581. # [13:40] <Hixie> hsivonen: i honestly can't see the difference between an editor assuming that something should be a style="" attribute instead of an <h1> attribute and an editor assuming something should say alt="" instead of alt="W3C".
582. # [13:40] <hsivonen> first
583. # [13:40] <Hixie> er, <h1> element
584. # [13:40] <Hixie> in both cases it is syntactically ok either way, and in both cases it is bad for accessibility.
585. # [13:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: when you select text and choose "Heading 1", it becomes a <h1> in an operation that's atomic in a GUI
586. # [13:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: inserting an image and entering alt isn't atomic without modal dialogs
587. # [13:42] <annevk> you could have several insert image operations
588. # [13:42] <annevk> insert decorative image, insert content image, etc.
589. # [13:42] <Hixie> hsivonen: so? inserting a link is also not "atomic without modal dialogs".
590. # [13:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'm not saying that you need to ask for alt="" or href="" when you insert the image or link
591. # [13:43] * Quits: billyjack (n=MikeSmit@EM60-254-240-145.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
592. # [13:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'm just saying that it's fine for the UA to make assumptions as part of its UI
593. # [13:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: e.g. that images are decorative unless told otherwise
594. # [13:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: or taht font size changes mean style="" attributes and not <h1> or <h2> or <small>, unless told otherwise
595. # [13:43] <Philip`> You could have a modeless dialog box that requires you to select an image and type in some alt text, before clicking or dragging or something to insert it into the page, and there's no need to modally block all other interaction while you're doing that
596. # [13:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: when a user inserts a link, the user would fail the primary goal of the operation if the URL wasn't supplied
597. # [13:44] <Hixie> hsivonen: let's back up. what is your fundamental objection?
598. # [13:45] <Hixie> because right now i'm agreeing with everything you say, so we're clearly off the controversy.
599. # [13:45] <hsivonen> My fundamental objection is that given the current state of HTML generating programs, there's a case where a user can put a program in a state that can't be serialized without either violating the file format syntax or without stuffing junk
600. # [13:46] * Joins: billyjack (n=MikeSmit@EM119-72-1-204.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
601. # [13:47] <hsivonen> unless, of course, we assume that the UI should block users from inserting images without there being a heading
602. # [13:47] <Hixie> so you believe it is inappropriate for an editor to assume that images are decorative unless told otherwise?
603. # [13:47] <hsivonen> or from removing a heading if there are images
604. # [13:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: yes
605. # [13:47] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g226129251.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Connection timed out)
606. # [13:47] <Hixie> hsivonen: why?
607. # [13:48] <Hixie> (note: statistically, most images are decorative)
608. # [13:48] <Hixie> (according to some studies i was looking at earlier, anyway.)
609. # [13:48] <hsivonen> because then users who don't see images aren't alerted about relevant presence of non-decorative images authored with such UI
610. # [13:50] <Hixie> do you therefore also think it is inappropriate for an editor to assume that when the user says "font size bigger", he wants a style="font-size:2em" attribute instead of an <h1> element, even if the user is really changing the font size of his headers?
611. # [13:50] <hsivonen> otoh, if the conclusion is that users don't need to be alerted about that, and the distinction in current UAs between empty alt and no alt is useless, then this has been a rather veiled conclusion
612. # [13:50] <Hixie> i do not believe that the distinction in current UAs between empty alt and no alt is useless
613. # [13:50] <hsivonen> I think it is inappropriate to map UI that says "bigger" in words or icons to <h1>
614. # [13:51] <Hixie> but surely if we don't mark up these headers as headers, then users who don't see css aren't alerted about relevant presence of headers authored with such UI
615. # [13:52] <Hixie> and based on the usability studies i was looking at earlier, users of ATs navigate using headers far more than they look for images.
616. # [13:52] <hsivonen> yes
617. # [13:52] <Hixie> i don't understand the difference.
618. # [13:53] <hsivonen> the presence of the text doesn't get hidden when marked up as big
619. # [13:53] <hsivonen> the presence of the image gets hidden when marked up as alt=""
620. # [13:54] <Hixie> for all intents and purposes, the presence of headers gets hidden when marked up as big. AT users don't just read the page, they navigate by headers and then spot read around them.
621. # [13:54] <hsivonen> as far as I can tell, we've now gotten back to where HTML 4.01 was
622. # [13:54] <Hixie> they only very rarely read the whole page through.
623. # [13:55] <Hixie> we are where HTML4 was, except that it is possible for flickr and your image report tool to be conforming, yes.
624. # [13:55] <zcorpan> " Line 1, Column 24: RCDATA element nu.validator.htmlparser.impl.ElementName@1c1ace8 contained the string </, but this did not close the element.."
625. # [13:55] <Hixie> (and except for the spec having examples of good alt text. a lot of examples.)
626. # [13:55] <hsivonen> and with HTML 4.01, we don't have ATAG 2.0 (comprehensibly) telling generator agent developers to emit alt=""
627. # [13:55] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-471f57a9bd081189)
628. # [13:56] <Philip`> Authoring tools don't know whether the author intended text to be a header or intended it to just be bigger, so they can't indicate the difference in the markup; but they do know whether the author intended an image to be decorative or just didn't think about it at all, so they could indicate that in the markup, except they can't because HTML5 doesn't allow that distinction, so information is lost
629. # [13:57] <Philip`> which seems to be a difference between those cases
630. # [13:57] <Hixie> they only know that the user didn't bother because they give the option to the user of saying decorative vs not decorative, but they also give the user the option of saying header vs paragraph, so i don't think the distinction is valid
631. # [13:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
632. # [13:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: anyway, I'm too tired to keep insisting that the distinction be made
633. # [13:59] <Hixie> fair enough
634. # [14:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: I would like to see comprehensible and honest guidance for generator agent authors, though, saying that they should rather do alt="" than junk like alt="file/path.jgp"
635. # [14:00] <Hixie> imho it is quite possible to make non-modal ui that encourages alternative text to be given, e.g. by having text inputs hover over images where alt text is not yet given, with a little button to be used if hte image is really decorative
636. # [14:00] <Hixie> yeah adding suggestions for this would be useful
637. # [14:02] <hsivonen> if the ATAG people as a WG agreed with this conclusion, though, one would think they'd written it down comprehensibly
638. # [14:02] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM60-254-227-42.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
639. # [14:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: that is, "if the markup generator does not have a text alternative available, it should generate ..."
640. # [14:04] <hsivonen> where I assume "..." ends up being "alt=''"
641. # [14:05] <Hixie> noted
642. # [14:05] <Hixie> me sleep now
643. # [14:05] <Hixie> nn
644. # [14:23] <zcorpan> am i the only one getting tired of garret smith?
645. # [14:26] <annevk> no
646. # [14:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: your reply to Manu Sporny made sense from the Google point of view
647. # [14:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: however, if state of the art was the same on handheld devices (i.e. without a lot of processing against a large repository of previous data), surely we could do away with <h1>?
648. # [14:34] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
649. # [14:46] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@80.187.144.240)
650. # [14:51] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you could use aria-describedby instead of <label> for your select box (that replaces the label "Document") to avoid the focus problem
651. # [14:52] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g226129251.adsl.alicedsl.de)
652. # [14:53] * zcorpan notes that aria keywords are in the opposite direction of accessibility api keywords
653. # [14:53] <zcorpan> e.g. aria-labelledby vs RELATION_LABEL_FOR
654. # [14:54] <zcorpan> hsivonen: oops, i meant aria-labelledby, not aria-describedby
655. # [14:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok.
656. # [14:56] <hsivonen> I don't have a way to test though. I can't get Orca to work with my keyboard
657. # [15:10] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@80.187.144.240)
658. # [15:20] <BenMillard> damn, I just noticed the purpose of <address> and the difference between <ul> and <ol> has been discussed here in recent days but I missed it all :(
659. # [15:21] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@80.187.144.240)
660. # [15:22] <zcorpan> hsivonen: hmm. multiline <script> doesn't work in livedom in opera. wonder why
661. # [15:23] <hsivonen> zcorpan: could it be that Opera puts CRLF in the DOM but Gecko and WebKit put an LF there?
662. # [15:24] <annevk> could be
663. # [15:24] <hsivonen> if so, it could be my bug
664. # [15:24] <annevk> well, browser incompat is a bug too
665. # [15:25] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3Efoo%0D%0Abar%3C%2Fscript%3E%3Cscript%3Ew(document.getElementsByTagName('script')%5B0%5D.textContent.replace('%5Cr'%2C'%5C%5Cr').replace('%5Cn'%2C'%5C%5Cn'))%3C%2Fscript%3E
666. # [15:25] <zcorpan> that's it
667. # [15:26] * zcorpan files a bug on opera
668. # [15:28] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@80.187.144.240)
669. # [15:50] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@80.187.144.240)
670. # [15:51] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@80.76.201.60)
671. # [16:11] * Philip` sees that http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/08/25/privacy-beyond-blocking-cookies-bringing-awareness-to-third-party-content.aspx links to the #whatwg IRC logs
672. # [16:12] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g226129251.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.1a2pre/20080825031951]")
673. # [16:13] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g226129251.adsl.alicedsl.de)
674. # [16:18] <annevk> MS is watching you :D
675. # [16:19] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@80.187.144.240)
676. # [16:21] <Xenos> Hm :p
677. # [16:23] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@80.187.144.240)
678. # [16:25] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
679. # [16:28] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
680. # [16:30] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
681. # [16:32] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
682. # [16:33] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
683. # [16:34] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-1044aa275208e554)
684. # [16:38] <zcorpan> i wonder when we get a bug saying that &nbsp; doesn't work with an "-//W3C//DTD XHTML+RDFa 1.0//EN" doctype
685. # [16:39] <hsivonen> I'm seeing mixed messages about the expected future browser-sensitivity of RDFa by RDFa proponents
686. # [16:43] <hsivonen> I've learned various things from trying to validate a million documents
687. # [16:43] <hsivonen> 1) Jing leaks memory
688. # [16:43] <hsivonen> 2) parser bugs get exposed
689. # [16:44] <hsivonen> 3) the results take more space than expected
690. # [16:44] <hsivonen> 4) HFS+ sucks
691. # [16:44] <hsivonen> 5) Time Machine is brittle
692. # [16:44] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM60-254-246-250.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
693. # [16:45] <hsivonen> 6) Apple's Java 6 has a weird classloader bug
694. # [16:49] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
695. # [16:53] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@80.187.144.240)
696. # [16:54] <Dashiva> "In this scenario Charlie is making a mistake, and treating strings that look like URIs as if they had other properties of URIs."
697. # [16:54] <Dashiva> How is this any different for namespace URIs?
698. # [17:01] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g226129251.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.1a2pre/20080825031951]")
699. # [17:01] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g226129251.adsl.alicedsl.de)
700. # [17:01] * Quits: billyjack (n=MikeSmit@EM119-72-1-204.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
701. # [17:01] * Joins: billyjack (n=MikeSmit@EM60-254-218-231.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
702. # [17:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: That'd be easier if I had any knowledge of C :)
703. # [17:07] <Philip`> gsnedders: C is just like JavaScript - it's got curly braces and everything
704. # [17:07] <gsnedders> Philip`: :)
705. # [17:07] <gsnedders> OK, I was exaggerating.
706. # [17:07] <gsnedders> I have some knowledge of C.
707. # [17:07] <gsnedders> Just almost none.
708. # [17:09] <Dashiva> Just use something that compiles to C
709. # [17:09] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
710. # [17:10] * gsnedders notes he already has an almost release-ready version in Python, and doesn't care to rewrite it
711. # [17:10] <Philip`> Use JavaScript with a JIT and then extract the compiled code from memory and disassemble it and decompile it to C
712. # [17:11] <Dashiva> Use parrot
713. # [17:11] * Philip` made a C-to-Parrot compiler once
714. # [17:11] <Philip`> (called Carrot)
715. # [17:11] <Philip`> (but never released since I got bored before it worked quite properly)
716. # [17:12] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM60-254-246-250.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
717. # [17:12] <Philip`> (but it was able to compile somebody's Coke-to-Parrot compiler which was written in C, and run that in Parrot)
718. # [17:14] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
719. # [17:14] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
720. # [17:27] <Lachy> does anyone here have experience with ruby?
721. # [17:27] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
722. # [17:27] <Lachy> I need to install libxml-parser-ruby1.8 on Mac, but I can't figure out how?
723. # [17:32] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
724. # [17:33] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
725. # [17:41] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@adsl-76-205-215-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
726. # [17:54] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote closed the connection)
727. # [17:54] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
728. # [17:57] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
729. # [18:03] * Joins: codedread_ (n=chatzill@wwwgate2.motorola.com)
730. # [18:04] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@dsl081-073-212.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
731. # [18:04] <codedread_> Hixie: quick question - is it better for me to raise a bug with the HTML spec by using the W3C Bug / Issue Tracking Service, or is an email ok ?
732. # [18:06] <gsnedders> codedread_: If anything, he'd prefer email
733. # [18:06] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@host73-247-static.125-81-b.business.telecomitalia.it) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
734. # [18:06] <codedread_> ok, thanks
735. # [18:06] <zcorpan> codedread_: i believe he's said that he'll guarantee response if sent to bugzilla or the whatwg mailing list, and that he prefers email
736. # [18:06] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g226129251.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.1a2pre/20080825031951]")
737. # [18:07] <codedread_> zcorpan - thanks
738. # [18:07] <gsnedders> (He didn't say how soon that response would be, though)
739. # [18:07] * Quits: codedread_ (n=chatzill@wwwgate2.motorola.com) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070208]")
740. # [18:08] * Joins: inetpro (n=inetpro@unaffiliated/hibana)
741. # [18:09] <zcorpan> gsnedders: statistically of all issues i've raised, the issues i've raised in bugzilla have been addressed a lot quicker than those i've raised in email :)
742. # [18:10] * Parts: inetpro (n=inetpro@unaffiliated/hibana)
743. # [18:10] <gsnedders> Lies, damned lies and statistics!
744. # [18:15] <Philip`> zcorpan: If your issues have been addressed quicker, that means hundreds of other people's issues have been delayed, so it is very selfish of you, and you should instead work out how to raise issues so that it will take two or three years before they're addressed
745. # [18:18] <zcorpan> Philip`: i'm a selfish person
746. # [18:24] * Joins: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@dsl081-073-212.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
747. # [18:30] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Lbf95.l.pppool.de)
748. # [18:33] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
749. # [18:35] <Philip`> http://developer.yahoo.net/blog/archives/2008/08/rdf_xslt_and_the_monkey_makes_3.html - "<dc:identifier>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/26/business/media/26link.html?_r=1&oref=slogin</dc:identifier>" - alas for ampersands
750. # [18:36] <zcorpan> Philip`: markup is hard
751. # [18:37] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
752. # [18:37] <Philip`> Hmm, and the second half of that blog post is in fixed-width font, presumably because they forgot a </code> somewhere :-(
753. # [18:38] * zcorpan rests his case
754. # [18:40] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@dsl081-073-212.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
755. # [18:44] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) ("Ex-Chat")
756. # [18:52] * Quits: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@dsl081-073-212.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
757. # [18:54] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@adsl-76-205-215-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
758. # [18:55] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote closed the connection)
759. # [18:56] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
760. # [19:03] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@c-24-5-71-9.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
761. # [19:14] <Philip`> krijnh: Do you know where all the search.live.com referrers to the IRC logs are coming from? They claim to have URLs like http://search.live.com/results.aspx?q=joins which is weird since your page isn't high in a search for that term and since it's less crufty than real search URLs would be
762. # [19:15] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
763. # [19:15] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
764. # [19:19] <gsnedders> If you want weirdness, look at what my site gets.
765. # [19:19] <gsnedders> :)
766. # [19:20] * Joins: heycam (i=cam@88.128.81.167)
767. # [19:22] <Philip`> gsnedders: That's just weird people, which is different to weird URLs :-)
768. # [19:22] <gsnedders> Philip`: "32" — that found my site.
769. # [19:23] * Joins: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
770. # [19:23] * Quits: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
771. # [19:24] * Philip` sees a page that uses <!--googleoff: snippet-->...<!--googleon: snippet-->, and wonders if that's something that should be addressed by HTML properly
772. # [19:25] <Philip`> Hmm, looks like it's only used by the Google Search Appliance, so it's not really a web thing
773. # [19:27] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
774. # [19:27] * Quits: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
775. # [19:34] * Joins: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
776. # [19:34] * Quits: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
777. # [19:42] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
778. # [19:42] * Quits: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
779. # [19:43] * Joins: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@69.36.227.131)
780. # [19:47] * Joins: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
781. # [19:47] * Quits: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
782. # [19:47] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@c-24-5-71-9.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
783. # [19:50] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
784. # [19:50] * Quits: Lachy__ (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
785. # [19:53] * Quits: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Client Quit)
786. # [19:53] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
787. # [19:53] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
788. # [19:55] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
789. # [19:56] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote closed the connection)
790. # [19:58] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
791. # [20:00] * Joins: smedero (n=smedero@mdp-nat251.mdp.com)
792. # [20:05] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g226129251.adsl.alicedsl.de)
793. # [20:06] <takkaria> hsivonen: did you use my dmoz.org fetcher thing at all or did you roll your own?
794. # [20:09] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
795. # [20:10] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
796. # [20:13] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@80.76.201.60) (Remote closed the connection)
797. # [20:15] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
798. # [20:34] * Quits: heycam (i=cam@88.128.81.167) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
799. # [20:35] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@216.239.45.19)
800. # [20:52] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@216.239.45.19) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
801. # [20:53] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote closed the connection)
802. # [20:54] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@80.76.201.60)
803. # [20:55] * Quits: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@69.36.227.131) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
804. # [21:01] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@nat/google/x-c75f162b2cb01b04)
805. # [21:06] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
806. # [21:06] <jruderman> aboodman!
807. # [21:06] <jruderman> <3 greasemonkey
808. # [21:07] * Joins: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@216.239.45.19)
809. # [21:10] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
810. # [21:11] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
811. # [21:14] * Joins: aboodman3 (n=aboodman@216.239.45.19)
812. # [21:17] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-cf1153438e6e1fcf)
813. # [21:19] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
814. # [21:20] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
815. # [21:21] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
816. # [21:22] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@nat/google/x-c75f162b2cb01b04) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
817. # [21:23] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("The computer fell asleep")
818. # [21:32] * Quits: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@216.239.45.19) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
819. # [21:34] * Joins: heycam (i=cam@88.128.85.200)
820. # [21:36] * Quits: aboodman3 (n=aboodman@216.239.45.19) (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
821. # [21:38] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
822. # [21:41] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
823. # [21:46] * Joins: aboodman3 (n=aboodman@216.239.45.19)
824. # [21:49] <billyjack> hsivonen: you around?
825. # [21:49] * billyjack is now known as MikeSmith
826. # [21:51] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
827. # [22:03] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-cf1153438e6e1fcf)
828. # [22:06] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Lbf95.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
829. # [22:08] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-f4ded4649c8e88fc)
830. # [22:14] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Lbf95.l.pppool.de)
831. # [22:16] <BenMillard> gsnedders, did you talk to smedero?
832. # [22:16] * gsnedders looks innocent
833. # [22:16] <gsnedders> No.
834. # [22:16] * smedero waves
835. # [22:16] <gsnedders> smedero: Decide when you're going to be at the TPAC!
836. # [22:16] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
837. # [22:16] <smedero> I'll be in France for the entire week.
838. # [22:16] <BenMillard> smedero, I take it you and gsnedders will be sharing a room?
839. # [22:17] <smedero> hrm, that seems to be the plan so far. What is the occupancy size of the room?
840. # [22:17] <smedero> I'm all for cutting costs.
841. # [22:17] <gsnedders> smedero: Yay! You've decided!
842. # [22:18] <jmb> decisiveness is overrated
843. # [22:18] <BenMillard> smedero, if it's OK I'd like to tag along with you two from Wedesnday to Friday
844. # [22:18] <BenMillard> the form has a "Number of persons" field so I imagine there are 3-person rooms? http://www.w3.org/2008/03/TPAC2008-hotelform.html
845. # [22:18] <smedero> of course.
846. # [22:18] <gsnedders> BenMillard: I'm sure we can give you the floor.
847. # [22:19] <gsnedders> Molly said there were three person rooms, FWIW
848. # [22:19] <BenMillard> cool
849. # [22:19] <BenMillard> I can bring a PS2 (PAL) with Gran Turismo games to sweeten the deal :)
850. # [22:19] <gsnedders> I can bring some games too
851. # [22:19] <smedero> That was my somewhat shoddy memory of the rooms situation as well...
852. # [22:19] * gsnedders has no memory of any TPAC :D
853. # [22:19] <BenMillard> hotels usually have a TV and, since it's europe, I expect they'll have that 3-cable connection system
854. # [22:19] <BenMillard> s/hotels/hotel rooms/
855. # [22:20] <gsnedders> or SCART
856. # [22:20] <gsnedders> who knows?
857. # [22:20] <smedero> I stayed with friends at the last TPAC.... yay free.
858. # [22:20] <BenMillard> I stayed in a hotel for the November 2007 one...paid for by Google :P
859. # [22:20] <gsnedders> I couldn't get anywhere to stay last year :(
860. # [22:20] <gsnedders> (Due to being under 18)
861. # [22:20] <gsnedders> And everyone already having arrangements
862. # [22:21] <smedero> I think we only met briefly Ben.... I saw your presentation on the table data and we we're probably in a few hallway chats... but I doubt you'd remember me.
863. # [22:21] <gsnedders> If you want a room with three beds, which box do you tick?
864. # [22:21] <gsnedders> smedero: What day are you arriving?
865. # [22:22] * Quits: heycam (i=cam@88.128.85.200) ("bye")
866. # [22:22] <BenMillard> smedero, have you a photo online? that might job my memory...
867. # [22:22] <smedero> Ideally Sunday... still working out Flights.
868. # [22:23] * smedero looks for the usual scruffy photo....
869. # [22:23] <gsnedders> smedero: I'll just stay in Cannes for a day or two before I arrive
870. # [22:24] <BenMillard> smedero & gsnedders, this is somewhat out of date but I've not changed much: http://projectcerbera.com/me/me.jpg
871. # [22:24] <smedero> well, there's this I guess: http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/d527b871fc097b317f7993bdac0d349e?s=128
872. # [22:24] <gsnedders> http://flickr.com/photos/tags/gsnedders/
873. # [22:24] <gsnedders> Take your pick.
874. # [22:24] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM60-254-218-231.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
875. # [22:24] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
876. # [22:24] <BenMillard> semedero, you look like Zane Lowe!
877. # [22:24] <zcorpan> i've found a number of bugs in the validator.w3.org front-end of validator.nu
878. # [22:25] <gsnedders> jgraham's is probably the best recent one
879. # [22:25] <smedero> BenMillard: hahahaha
880. # [22:25] <gsnedders> Expect my hair to be even crazier by October though.
881. # [22:25] <BenMillard> gsnedders, ah the curly one
882. # [22:26] <smedero> Ooers, to get the w3c discount I've got send that form soon.
883. # [22:26] <BenMillard> I've not sent mine yet
884. # [22:27] <gsnedders> BenMillard: your what?
885. # [22:27] <BenMillard> the form smedero is talking about (I think): http://www.w3.org/2008/03/TPAC2008-hotelform.html
886. # [22:27] <gsnedders> Ah
887. # [22:27] <smedero> indeed
888. # [22:27] <gsnedders> How do we deal with that?
889. # [22:28] <gsnedders> Do we just send one, or…?
890. # [22:28] <BenMillard> the homepage for the meeting is here: http://www.w3.org/2008/10/TPAC/Overview
891. # [22:29] <BenMillard> smedero, I agree we should get this done sooner rather than later...I just saw "The discounted room rates are available until 8 September 2008."
892. # [22:31] <gsnedders> hmm¬
893. # [22:31] <gsnedders> *hmm…
894. # [22:31] <gsnedders> "Rooms at this hotel can accommodate up to 2 person"
895. # [22:31] <BenMillard> oh, where does it say that?
896. # [22:31] <gsnedders> Trying to book a room directly at <http://www.pullmanhotels.com/pullman/fichehotel/gb/pul/1168/fiche_hotel.shtml>
897. # [22:32] <BenMillard> Find in Page doesn't pick that text up for me..
898. # [22:33] <gsnedders> Start to try and make a booking
899. # [22:33] <gsnedders> Look at the first page
900. # [22:33] <BenMillard> aha
901. # [22:33] <BenMillard> http://www.pullmanhotels.com/gb/reservation/rooms-dates.jshtml
902. # [22:34] <gsnedders> Hmm…
903. # [22:34] <BenMillard> so much for that idea, then :(
904. # [22:34] <gsnedders> "Unfortunately, no room with twin beds is available at this date. We suggest you consult the rates for a room with double bed."
905. # [22:35] <gsnedders> Oddly, cheapest average room rate per night for six nights starting on the 19th, 149EUR, less than the W3C rate :\
906. # [22:36] <smedero> heh
907. # [22:36] <gsnedders> But that doesn't include breakfast
908. # [22:36] <Xenos> And W3C breakfasts must be experienced to be believed ;-)
909. # [22:36] <gsnedders> Inc. breakfast we're up to 189EUR
910. # [22:37] <gsnedders> Still less than the W3C rate.
911. # [22:37] <Xenos> They're totally worth 80 euros
912. # [22:37] <Xenos> (The chef doesn't spit in those)
913. # [22:38] <gsnedders> Xenos: :P
914. # [22:38] <BenMillard> €362.33 per night (€1,089.40 total) is the best I can find for Wedesday 23rd to Friday 25th :(
915. # [22:38] <BenMillard> directly at the hotel, that is
916. # [22:39] <gsnedders> eeek.
917. # [22:40] <Xenos> Man. If politics were as easy as getting "Insightful" on Slashdot I'd be world dictator in a week.
918. # [22:40] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g226129251.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.1a2pre/20080825031951]")
919. # [22:40] <zcorpan> aaronlev: i tried to send an email to aria-ua-impl but it bounced
920. # [22:41] <Xenos> ... But then, so would everyone else, and we'd have to fight it out with tanks and nukes and stuff. So it might be just as well
921. # [22:41] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-3b59f3334c4fbaca)
922. # [22:43] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
923. # [22:45] <BenMillard> gsnedders, good news is I have an adaptor for their plug type
924. # [22:45] <BenMillard> train links seem adequate, so that's probably who I'll get there
925. # [22:45] <BenMillard> *how
926. # [22:45] <BenMillard> my mobile phone was brilliant in the USA, so I expect that will Just Work
927. # [22:46] <BenMillard> and in Germany, too
928. # [22:47] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Lbf95.l.pppool.de) ("Leaving")
929. # [22:49] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-f4ded4649c8e88fc)
930. # [22:49] <gsnedders> BenMillard: It's not Britain, so of course train links are sane.
931. # [22:53] <Hixie> hsivonen: i think it makes sense to have a middle ground with widely understood vocabularies where lying and abusing the structure can't cause much damage
932. # [22:56] * Quits: aboodman3 (n=aboodman@216.239.45.19) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
933. # [23:01] <Hixie> the responses in http://groups.google.com/group/microformats/browse_thread/thread/bd08f236b5dd1d13/08ea9b2b9f6dd911?hl=en&q=html5#08ea9b2b9f6dd911 are accurate
934. # [23:01] * Quits: psa (n=yomode@71.93.19.66) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
935. # [23:02] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
936. # [23:06] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-3b59f3334c4fbaca) ("The computer fell asleep")
937. # [23:06] <gsnedders> Does @id on input serve any use?
938. # [23:06] * Joins: aboodman3 (n=aboodman@nat/google/x-b35f08ffee16c0a0)
939. # [23:07] <BenMillard> gsnedders, <label for>?
940. # [23:08] <gsnedders> Ah.
941. # [23:08] <gsnedders> I thought I was forgetting something obvious :)
942. # [23:08] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
943. # [23:08] <BenMillard> sometimes as a styling hook in the absence of certain selectors in IE
944. # [23:09] <BenMillard> or a scripting hook, equally
945. # [23:11] <gsnedders> <textarea name="&#99;&#111;&#110;&#116;&#101;&#110;&#116;" id="&#99;&#111;&#110;&#116;&#101;&#110;&#116;">
946. # [23:11] <gsnedders> weeee…
947. # [23:11] <gsnedders> Taking advantage of the dumbness of spam-bots :)
948. # [23:11] <webben> That may be over-optimistic.
949. # [23:11] <Xenos> And making it real easy for people using screen readers :p
950. # [23:11] <BenMillard> character reference munging is effective since spambots really *are* that dumb
951. # [23:12] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-f524de2730f70bdc)
952. # [23:12] <gsnedders> webben: It isn't.
953. # [23:12] <BenMillard> Nikita the Spider had a study on it, IIRC, trying to find it
954. # [23:13] <BenMillard> aha: http://nikitathespider.com/articles/IngenReklamTack.html
955. # [23:13] <BenMillard> "Obfuscation using Numeric Character References"
956. # [23:13] <gsnedders> I don't know why I'm even bothering. form@action should be enough.
957. # [23:13] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-087-110.nc.res.rr.com)
958. # [23:14] <webben> BenMillard: interesting. last time I looked into obfuscation, I could swear I was reading about it failing.
959. # [23:14] <webben> better than nothing either way though
960. # [23:14] <rubys> Tiny nit, section 8.1.1; the doctype is case-insensitive in html5, but not in xhtml5.
961. # [23:15] <gsnedders> rubys: 8.1 is specific to text/html
962. # [23:16] <Hixie> i thought we said that explicitly somewhere, but i see we don't. i'll make a note to add a note saying that the section is for text/html only and xml rules are defined in xml.
963. # [23:16] <gsnedders> smedero: When are you leaving?
964. # [23:17] <smedero> Saturday, 10/25
965. # [23:18] <gsnedders> smedero: ditto.
966. # [23:18] <BenMillard> I anticipate sending my W3C reservation form tomorrow
967. # [23:18] <BenMillard> (by plain text e-mail...ftw)
968. # [23:20] <gsnedders> I take it it is one form per room, not per person?
969. # [23:21] * Joins: jacobolus1 (n=jacobolu@pool-71-119-188-52.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
970. # [23:25] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
971. # [23:25] <BenMillard> gsnedders, there's a "sharing with" field and a "number of persons field" so that impression seems correct
972. # [23:28] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
973. # [23:31] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
974. # [23:33] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
975. # [23:33] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
976. # [23:34] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@88.128.95.172)
977. # Session Close: Wed Aug 27 00:00:00 2008

The end :)