/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-08-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 27 00:00:00 2008
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  6. # [08:31] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  7. # [08:31] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
  8. # [08:35] <krijnh> Philip`: I have no idea (re the search.live.com referrers)
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  14. # [10:43] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  15. # [10:43] * Set by gsnedders on Tue Dec 18 21:41:19
  16. # [10:43] <hsivonen> I got a huge email, so Mail.app has been busy with one message all morning
  17. # [10:44] <hsivonen> so I can't be distracted by the RDFa thread for a while still...
  18. # [10:44] <Dashiva> Well, unless you're a glutton for punishment... :)
  19. # [10:44] <zcorpan> hsivonen: great opportunity to get acctual work done :)
  20. # [10:45] <Dashiva> "We can't use classes because people might try to dereference them. Instead we use namespace URLs, which magically always can be dereferenced."
  21. # [10:45] <annevk> these "Digital Bazaar" people sure write a lot
  22. # [10:46] <Hixie> some of the needs of these rdfa people are things we should probably address
  23. # [10:46] <Hixie> i'm just not sure any of them actually require spec changes
  24. # [10:46] <Dashiva> "Only URIs are ever unique. A classname with all the same characters as a URI will magically cause collisions."
  25. # [10:46] <Hixie> but i'll get back to rdfa once i've dealt with the workers and parsing feedback
  26. # [10:46] <hsivonen> Dashiva: I have a solution for that one
  27. # [10:47] <hsivonen> Dashiva: defining that class names that contain a colon MUST be IRIs
  28. # [10:47] <Dashiva> "We know squat about why namespaces are bad."
  29. # [10:48] <Dashiva> hsivonen: That doesn't stop collisions, though. Anyone's free to type whatever they want
  30. # [10:48] <jgraham> Dashiva: I was going to ask how they plan to keep URIs both unique and dereferencable since it sems to me that atm having one property means that you cannot ensure the other, even assuming good faith
  31. # [10:48] <Dashiva> There is no URI police that will come to your house and stop you
  32. # [10:48] <hsivonen> Dashiva: sure
  33. # [10:48] <Dashiva> jgraham: Oh?
  34. # [10:48] <hsivonen> Dashiva: the same holds true for RDFa property attribute
  35. # [10:49] <Dashiva> hsivonen: Indeed
  36. # [10:49] <jgraham> Dereferenceable => URLs, right? and URLs imply DNS which has finite-time registrations.
  37. # [10:50] <jgraham> (in practice there are shorter term problems)
  38. # [10:50] <Dashiva> They work around that with purl et.al.
  39. # [10:50] <annevk> the long term problems are somewhat annoying too; if I die, will I need to set up a fund to keep annevankesteren.nl alive?
  40. # [10:50] <Dashiva> Yes
  41. # [10:51] <jgraham> Dashiva: So they basically build a second centralised registry
  42. # [10:51] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  43. # [10:51] <hsivonen> who is the purl overlord?
  44. # [10:51] <Dashiva> jgraham: Ssh, it's impolite to point out elephants
  45. # [10:51] <jgraham> In which case why bother putting http://purl.org at the front of everything
  46. # [10:51] <jgraham> Why not just have unique human-readable prefixes
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  49. # [10:52] <hsivonen> jgraham: well, purl.org NS uris depend on 3 centralized registries that are independent, so it's decentralized in that sense
  50. # [10:53] <hsivonen> billyjack: I'm around now
  51. # [10:53] <jgraham> hsivonen: what are the 3 independent registries? Presumably there is only one body handling out purl.org uris, so purl.org, not dns becomes the bottleneck in that case
  52. # [10:53] <jgraham> ?
  53. # [10:54] <hsivonen> jgraham: purl.org itself (for its subspace), domain registry and the URI scheme registry
  54. # [10:55] <billyjack> hsivonen: can't remember what I wanted to ask you about now.. will ping you if/when I remember
  55. # [10:55] <hsivonen> billyjack: ok
  56. # [10:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: I think that's just three things that could go wrong, not three layers of redundancy
  57. # [10:55] <hsivonen> jgraham: yes. but the three things are distributed :-)
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  59. # [10:56] <jgraham> "distributed modes of failiure" doesn't sound that confidence inspiring :)
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  61. # [11:00] <Hixie> jgraham: i don't think hsivonen is defending RDFa :-)
  62. # [11:01] <annevk> RDF sounds very nice in theory though, still
  63. # [11:01] <Dashiva> annevk's question was interesting, though. Would they actually endorse a situation where an entire vocabulary becomes unusable because someone takes their webpage down?
  64. # [11:02] <hsivonen> I'd love to have a unified parsing model for microformats but without namespaces, CURIEs or overlong identifiers
  65. # [11:02] <hsivonen> my guess is that two to four letter prefixes disambiguate enough
  66. # [11:02] <hsivonen> IIRC, in the wikimedia commons SVG analysis, the namespace prefix collisions were:
  67. # [11:03] <hsivonen> 1) autogenerated ns1
  68. # [11:03] <hsivonen> 2) cc changing its URI
  69. # [11:03] <hsivonen> 3) Adobe and Microsoft claiming the same one-letter prefix
  70. # [11:04] <annevk> so unified parsing means you can easily create a graph out of some nodes?
  71. # [11:04] <Hixie> i love that the response to 2) is "but because you can dereference it, it's ok! we can map them to each other!"
  72. # [11:04] <annevk> because after that you will still have to perform format specific operations, which are probably more complicated than the parsing
  73. # [11:05] <Hixie> the syntax introduces a problem that is solved by the syntax, i love it
  74. # [11:05] <hsivonen> annevk: I'd settle for a tree
  75. # [11:05] <Hixie> annevk: if you end up with a triple-store, you can use standard tools to do inference
  76. # [11:06] <Hixie> annevk: which supports things like mapping vocabularies to each other, or saying that anything that is a car is also a four-wheeled object
  77. # [11:06] <Hixie> annevk: so even if your tool originally only knew about wheels, it could work out that each car implied four weels
  78. # [11:06] <annevk> yeah, but you still need to create the "export to Vcard" function
  79. # [11:06] <Hixie> yeah well, i'm not sure i understand what the ui would really be
  80. # [11:07] <annevk> I don't think it solves that part (although some people suggest it does)
  81. # [11:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: one semweb enthusiast I used to have lunches with occasionally at least used to advocate a UI like NakedObjects
  82. # [11:07] <hsivonen> http://www.nakedobjects.org/home/index.shtml
  83. # [11:08] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  84. # [11:08] <hsivonen> (I don't think that makes a good UI, though.)
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  86. # [11:09] * hsivonen fails to find Havoc Pennington's essay that identifies "I can generate the UI" as a passing phase
  87. # [11:10] <hsivonen> here it is: http://www106.pair.com/rhp/free-software-ui.html
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  89. # [11:12] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yeah, every time I hear about RDFa I think of that...
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  91. # [11:15] <Philip`> A library that does everything your applications need except for generating the UI still sounds like a quite useful thing to have
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  93. # [11:16] <jgraham> The other question I didn't ask about RDFa is why it will work when rel="home", "next" etc. have effectively failed
  94. # [11:17] <Philip`> What does "failed" mean?
  95. # [11:18] * Philip` has never noticed them causing harm, and has found them to be useful when he uses them on his own pages
  96. # [11:18] <jgraham> Philip`: They aren't used that much and IIRC aren't supported by default in 99% of browsers
  97. # [11:19] <jgraham> In fact you even have to turn on support in Opera I think
  98. # [11:19] <Philip`> They're on by default in Opera
  99. # [11:19] <Philip`> or at least the 'next' one is
  100. # [11:21] <jgraham> I think mpt was right that the problem is that because they are only used for 1 in n pages people don't learn to look in the chrome for functions related to intra-site navigation
  101. # [11:21] <Philip`> (e.g. if I go to http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/fallback.multiple.html and use a 'forward' shortcut (ctrl+right, right-click-and-drag-rightwards, etc) then it goes to the next page)
  102. # [11:22] <hsivonen> feed autodiscovery got UI
  103. # [11:22] <hsivonen> rel=next is different from the rest
  104. # [11:23] <mpt> That never occurred to me before -- how did feed autodiscovery succeed while rel= mostly failed?
  105. # [11:23] <jgraham> Philip`: You're right of course.
  106. # [11:24] <mpt> or I should say, <link rel= failed -- <a rel= is useful, because you're not relying on browsers to do anything special
  107. # [11:24] <mpt> it's an optional extra, like microformat detection
  108. # [11:25] <annevk> http://ajaxian.com/archives/ubiquity-quicksilver-of-the-firefox-browser could benefit from RDFa annotated data
  109. # [11:25] <wilhelm> Philip`: You can also just press space on that page. It scrolls down, and when it can't scroll anymore, it goes to the next page.
  110. # [11:25] <Philip`> (I think I've seen Opera's next-page thing working far more often when it automatically determines an ordered list from Apache directory indexes and lets you jump from one file straight to the next in the directory, rather than from explicit rel=nexts)
  111. # [11:30] <hsivonen> wilhelm: that feature is awesome. (which is why I think rel=next is not like the rest)
  112. # [11:31] <webben> I guess feed discovery progressed for on-page links to not relying on-page links.
  113. # [11:31] <webben> *from on-page
  114. # [11:31] <webben> maybe if <a rel="next" and associated UI became commonplace
  115. # [11:31] <annevk> rel=next also causes a page to be prefetched in Firefox
  116. # [11:31] <webben> then <link rel="next" would work too
  117. # [11:31] <wilhelm> <link rel='next'> is a pain, though. <a rel='next'> would be much nicer.
  118. # [11:31] <jgraham> mpt: I would hazard a guess that it has something to do with the fact that you can predict which sites have feeds and the fact that they used the same icon that people had got used to on-page offpage
  119. # [11:31] <annevk> (similar to rel=prefetch)
  120. # [11:32] <webben> wilhelm: are feed icons nicer than feed autodiscovery?
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  123. # [11:38] <annevk> Does anyone know how Firefox JIT compares with WebKit Squirrelfish?
  124. # [11:40] <annevk> seems to be faster
  125. # [11:41] <Philip`> Apparently it wins on SunSpider
  126. # [11:41] <annevk> right
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  129. # [11:42] <Philip`> Meanwhile, the IE team has a blog post saying that JScript performance isn't that important really
  130. # [11:43] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  131. # [11:44] <hsivonen> Philip`: even though IE seems to need the most JS libraries between it and the app programmer :-)
  132. # [11:44] * Philip` likes how http://home.kairo.at/blog/2008-08/how_fast_is_tracemonkey_in_real_world measures "stuff a real application might use" by calculating Mandelbrot fractals
  133. # [11:45] * hsivonen wishes Apple shipped GNU versions of basic Unix tools
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  143. # [12:18] <hsivonen> aargh. no wonder there were too many unique messages. part of the consolidation had failed
  144. # [12:18] <hsivonen> sigh
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  147. # [12:23] <Hixie> man, justin's comments on workers were disturbing
  148. # [12:24] <Hixie> he had one example where he launched one worker PER PIXEL of a bitmap he wanted to process
  149. # [12:24] <Hixie> i'm scared of what authors will do now
  150. # [12:33] <hsivonen> hmm. I think Mail.app has just gone crazy on its own
  151. # [12:33] <Lachy> Hixie, in the note at the end of the alt text guidelines, "One way to think of alternative text is to think about what how you would read the page containing the image " - s/what how/how/
  152. # [12:34] <Hixie> please send mail, i'm about to go to bed
  153. # [12:34] <Hixie> just a one liner to ian@hixie.ch is fine
  154. # [12:34] <Hixie> btw thanks again for that program
  155. # [12:34] <Hixie> whose name escapes me
  156. # [12:35] <Lachy> Requiem
  157. # [12:35] <Hixie> i have however found one major flaw with it
  158. # [12:35] <Hixie> right
  159. # [12:35] <Lachy> what?
  160. # [12:35] <Hixie> requiem
  161. # [12:35] <Hixie> after i unencrypted everything
  162. # [12:35] <Lachy> what flaw?
  163. # [12:35] <Hixie> i mentioned it to my girlfriend
  164. # [12:35] <Hixie> and her response was
  165. # [12:35] <Hixie> "oh! that means i can download DRMed songs again right?"
  166. # [12:36] <Lachy> heh
  167. # [12:36] <Hixie> i didn't really have a good reply!
  168. # [12:36] <Hixie> i mean, i don't want to encourage iTunes to continue with DRM
  169. # [12:37] <Lachy> just say no, because spending money on music with DRM only funds further development of DRM
  170. # [12:37] <Hixie> but it's hard to argue that the DRM is a problem if it can just be removed
  171. # [12:37] <Lachy> sure it can be removed, but it's illegal thanks to the DMCA
  172. # [12:37] <Hixie> i have a little cron job now that scans my library and decrypts anything that's newly added with drm and moves the old drm'ed file out of the way and renames the new file, all automatically
  173. # [12:37] <Hixie> it's pretty sweet
  174. # [12:38] <Hixie> the "breaking encryption is illegal" aspect of the DMCA is inane
  175. # [12:39] <webben> OT: is there a canonical straightforward explanation of the limitations of DTDs for describing the syntax of XML vocabularies (versus schemas of XSD or RNG varieties, or anything else for that matter)?
  176. # [12:39] <Hixie> webben: DTDs can't describe anything but trivial attribute value formats
  177. # [12:40] <hsivonen> webben: not canonical, but there's http://hsivonen.iki.fi/thesis/html5-conformance-checker#dtd
  178. # [12:41] <Hixie> anyway
  179. # [12:41] <Hixie> nn
  180. # [12:41] <hsivonen> nn
  181. # [12:45] * hsivonen restores Mail and AddressBook-related ~/Library files from backup
  182. # [12:45] * hsivonen wishes Mail.app were more robust
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  185. # [12:49] <webben> hsivonen: ta :)
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  189. # [13:08] <hsivonen> zcorpan: multiline scripts now work in the HTML5 live DOM
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  194. # [13:30] <zcorpan> hsivonen: cool
  195. # [13:30] <zcorpan> hsivonen: now the question is whether we should change to match webkit and firefox or if they should change to match us... consider that %0D%0A is what is sent to the server
  196. # [13:31] <hsivonen> what does IE do?
  197. # [13:31] <zcorpan> IE uses \r (but sends %0D%0A to the server)
  198. # [13:32] <hsivonen> CRLF sucks, and LF is more canonical than CR, so I'd prefer the Gecko/WebKit way
  199. # [13:32] <hsivonen> without proper compat arguments
  200. # [13:32] <zcorpan> we haven't had any compat bugs on this until livedom
  201. # [13:32] <zcorpan> so either way should work fine
  202. # [13:33] <annevk> path of least resistance seems for us to match Gecko/WebKit
  203. # [13:33] <zcorpan> yeah
  204. # [13:36] <hsivonen> hmm. myspace localizers have localized id=bodytype (or something like that) to id=Vartalon tyyppi without quotes
  205. # [13:36] <hsivonen> wow. MySpace has totally clueless id attribute use
  206. # [13:37] <hsivonen> it's a wonder their markup "works" at all
  207. # [13:38] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-4dbaafa032c1345f)
  208. # [14:14] <zcorpan> Hixie: would it be possible to include an Archived-At or X-Archived-At header in whatwg list emails?
  209. # [14:14] <annevk> he's just running some package from dreamhost
  210. # [14:19] <zcorpan> does that mean "no"?
  211. # [14:20] <annevk> likely
  212. # [14:20] <annevk> (it has been asked before, too)
  213. # [14:21] <zcorpan> ok
  214. # [14:22] * Philip` sees some discussion of it in http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Stable+URLs
  215. # [14:24] * annevk was just about to past that
  216. # [14:25] <annevk> seems a non-trivial problem
  217. # [14:28] <annevk> s/past/paste/
  218. # [14:45] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-18f132c1c74c6ec2)
  219. # [14:46] <Philip`> Hmm, my experiments indicate that Googlebot is surprisingly limited in where it looks for URLs - I only see <a href>, <embed src> and <script src>
  220. # [14:46] <Philip`> Yahoo looks at <a href>, <a src> (?!), <embed src>, <link href> and <object data>
  221. # [14:46] <Philip`> msnbot only looks at <a href>; msnbot-media also does <embed src> and <img src>
  222. # [14:46] <Philip`> Heritrix looks at <* cite>, <* data>, <* href>, <* lowsrc>, <* profile>, <* src> for any *
  223. # [14:48] <Philip`> (Of course they might be doing sufficiently clever things to break my experiments)
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  225. # [15:04] <annevk> hmm, #html-wg is starting to look like public-html :)
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  229. # [15:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm seeing a number of pages that have not parse errors. So far, I'm not seeing pages that don't have validation errors
  230. # [15:16] <Philip`> Will you be able to easily determine how many don't have validation errors except for some given set of errors?
  231. # [15:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: "easily" will depend of the ratio of RAM and data after the validation run
  232. # [15:17] <hsivonen> Philip`: but grep -v should work
  233. # [15:17] <hsivonen> I did a couple of things that will drastically reduce the data
  234. # [15:18] <hsivonen> I made the validation worker consolidate "bad value 'foo'" messages properly. (it had a bug last night)
  235. # [15:18] <hsivonen> and I picked at most one URL per hostname
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  239. # [15:29] <hsivonen> is there an HTML 4 "community" now?
  240. # [15:29] <hsivonen> "community" sounds even more hollow these days than "economy"
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  244. # [15:40] <zcorpan> aaronlev: hey
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  246. # [15:41] <zcorpan> bah he always disconnects when i ping him :(
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  255. # [16:20] <zcorpan> aaronlev: ping
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  257. # [16:21] <Philip`> A lot of people seem to be complaining about how IE8's InPrivate Blocking mode (which blocks third-party items that are included on more than ten different sites you visit) is going to break analytics and advertising and will cause the web industry to collapse
  258. # [16:22] <Philip`> I guess they're quite significantly distinct from the people who complain about <a ping>
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  260. # [16:23] <aaronlev> hi zcorpan
  261. # [16:23] <zcorpan> aaronlev: i tried to email aria-ua-impl last night
  262. # [16:23] <zcorpan> aaronlev: but it bounced
  263. # [16:24] <aaronlev> did you join?
  264. # [16:25] <zcorpan> yeah
  265. # [16:26] <zcorpan> aaronlev: are the logs public?
  266. # [16:29] <aaronlev> zcorpan: i don't know
  267. # [16:29] <aaronlev> i can make you an administrator
  268. # [16:29] <aaronlev> give me a minute
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  270. # [16:50] <takkaria> hsivonen: oh, what's your more interesting URL set?
  271. # [17:02] <gsnedders> benoitc: My navigating skillz are teh 1337.
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  274. # [17:07] <gsnedders> benoitc: sorry, wrong person.
  275. # [17:08] <benoitc> np
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  279. # [17:27] <annevk> we really need better <input type=file> + XMLHttpRequest support (or async <input type=file max=100>)
  280. # [17:28] <annevk> having to use the commandline to upload Flickr photos easily under Ubuntu/Mac is just silly
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  292. # [17:54] <takkaria> does no-one else thing that role="photo" is a mad suggestion?
  293. # [17:55] <takkaria> role="logo" or role="drawing"
  294. # [17:55] <takkaria> since they're not roles, blatantly, they're descriptions
  295. # [17:56] <takkaria> a photo could be role="decorative" but role="photo" seems a really jarring misuse of the word "role"
  296. # [17:56] <Dashiva> It seems more like a subtle attempt at sabotaging role
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  298. # [17:56] <takkaria> mind you, all this role business for img elements is astronauting anyway
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  305. # [18:07] <gsnedders> gsnedders's advice for today: Don't fall on to solid wood floors.
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  309. # [18:21] <Xenos> Concrete floors arn't good either, I hear
  310. # [18:22] <Philip`> Best not to fall on any floor at all, in my experience
  311. # [18:24] <gsnedders> normalize-space() is expensive.
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  316. # [18:39] <annevk> whoa, flood of RDF e-mail
  317. # [18:43] <annevk> though a lot of it is due to the dubious cross-list posting (www-archive and whatwg)
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  319. # [18:48] <annevk> wow, my own e-mail to an internal mailing list got marked as spam
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  337. # [20:15] <annevk> For those with W3C Member access: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Aug/thread.html#msg67
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  341. # [20:20] <malde_> Hi,
  342. # [20:21] <malde_> is my reading of the spec correct that within a sigle window only one transaction can execute simultaneously?
  343. # [20:21] <Dashiva> "The concept of namespaces is something that most regular folks can grasp if you explain it to them in the correct way."
  344. # [20:21] <Dashiva> How many understand namespaces, and how many just understand magical prefixes?
  345. # [20:23] <annevk> malde_, given that two windows can interact with the same database I don't think that's true
  346. # [20:23] <malde_> annevk: I was asking about a single window
  347. # [20:24] <annevk> I realize that and I don't think it's something that goes per window given that multiple windows can interact with the same database
  348. # [20:24] <annevk> (but I haven't checked that part recently)
  349. # [20:24] <malde_> like in db.transaction(...);db.transaction(); the second transaction wont be executed until all callbacks of the first transaction fired
  350. # [20:24] <malde_> It seems that webkit implements it that way
  351. # [20:25] <annevk> that sounds correct, yes
  352. # [20:25] <Hixie> malde_: it's per database, not per window
  353. # [20:26] <annevk> morning
  354. # [20:26] <malde_> OK, so it should be save to store the transaction handle inside a global variable?
  355. # [20:27] <Hixie> malde_: i'm not sure i'd recommend that, but it depends on what you're doing really
  356. # [20:27] <Hixie> zcorpan: in case you read this, i'd love to be able have X-Archived-At (i suggestd it for w3c originally) but i'm just using old stock mailman that dreamhost runs
  357. # [20:27] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Lb31e.l.pppool.de)
  358. # [20:28] <malde_> I wrote an OR mapper that work with both html5 db and gears and I wont to get the tx out of the ORM's API
  359. # [20:28] <annevk> Hixie, it's standardized as Archived-At now, fwiw
  360. # [20:28] <annevk> (and W3C switched to using that)
  361. # [20:30] <jgraham> Dashiva: I thought "We realized that it would be much easier for people to understand"
  362. # [20:30] <jgraham> "namespaces if we used URIs as the method of namespace expression"
  363. # [20:30] <Dashiva> So "Namespaces are much easier to understand if we ignore that pesky indirection thing"
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  365. # [20:31] <jgraham> Dashiva: I think the point was "Namespaces are much easier to understand if we use URIs to denote the namespace rather than human-readable strings"
  366. # [20:32] <Dashiva> And then bring CURIEs into it
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  369. # [20:33] <Philip`> Dashiva: Regular folks can use the magical prefixes that they copy-and-paste from the instructions given to them by the namespace experts who understand how to use the power and flexibility to provide all the desired features and avoid collisions and everything
  370. # [20:34] <Philip`> But I don't think that reasoning works, because there are far too few experts, and so regular folks make it up as they go along and get it all wrong
  371. # [20:36] <jgraham> Hmm. the RDFa emails seem to se using URI and URL interchangably in a situation where the difference is important
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  376. # [20:40] <Dashiva> Philip`: And we all know the non-experts would never forget to copy the enclosing element defining the CURIE prefixes :)
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  379. # [20:41] <Philip`> Dashiva: The same non-experts who write XHTML pages with xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xphp"? Surely not!
  380. # [20:41] * Joins: aboodman11 (n=aboodman@216.239.45.19)
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  382. # [20:53] <hsivonen> takkaria: the more interesting set is a set of URL from Google that shouldn't have the kind of front page bias dmoz likely has
  383. # [20:53] <hsivonen> s/URL/URLs/
  384. # [20:53] <takkaria> ah, I see :)
  385. # [20:54] * hsivonen notes that the RDFa examples omit ns declarations
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  387. # [20:56] <annevk> and even when they omit those they still look far more complex than the microformats they try to emulate
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  391. # [20:59] <Philip`> That's a problem with designing scalable solutions: you want examples to be as small as possible, and much smaller than real-world uses are likely to be, so the scalability is not apparent to people who only look at the examples
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  409. # [21:41] <gsnedders> IE8b2 is available, FWIW
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  414. # [21:45] <Philip`> Ooh, a bug-hunting opportunity
  415. # [21:47] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@80.187.145.66)
  416. # [21:51] <Philip`> Seems unusual for them to talk about improving the performance of Gmail, rather than of any Microsoft site
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  424. # [22:04] <gsnedders> I have only one item on my to-do list left for spec-gen 1.0RC1
  425. # [22:04] <gsnedders> checking all the docs are right.
  426. # [22:05] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.180)
  427. # [22:05] <hsivonen> hmm. IE8b2 EULA prohibits publication of benchmark results
  428. # [22:05] <hsivonen> that sucks
  429. # [22:06] <webben> seems a bit harsh
  430. # [22:06] <webben> (also seems highly unlikely to be an effective deterrent)
  431. # [22:06] * gsnedders thinks hsivonen complained about that when IE8b1 was released (with the slight change of the IE8b1 EULA being the EULA in question)
  432. # [22:06] <hsivonen> webben: harsh to prohibit it or harsh to say it sucks?
  433. # [22:06] <webben> I mean the prohibition is harsh.
  434. # [22:07] <webben> Seems fair to say it sucks. :)
  435. # [22:08] <Philip`> VMware from version 4 (I think) prohibits distribution of benchmark results too, but then the VMware people complained that it was unfair when other virtualisation people distributed benchmarks comparing against VMware 3
  436. # [22:09] <Philip`> which is kind of their own fault
  437. # [22:09] * aboodman11 is now known as aboodman
  438. # [22:10] * hsivonen wonders if one presses cancel to the IE8b2 install when a cancel button is offered after the installer has said it removed previous IE
  439. # [22:10] * hsivonen wonders what happens if..
  440. # [22:11] * Joins: aroben_ (i=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  441. # [22:13] * Philip` had to manually uninstall IE8b1 and reboot and then see Windows fail to start up and offer to restart in safe mode but then it worked the next time
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  444. # [22:14] <hsivonen> to me, it seems like a bad idea to offer a cancel button in the second phase of a rebooting installer
  445. # [22:15] <hsivonen> whee. a second reboot
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  448. # [22:16] <Philip`> It's rather odd that in these modern times it can take twenty minutes to install a web browser
  449. # [22:16] <Dashiva> Maybe it's more than just a browser :)
  450. # [22:17] <annevk> if only hardware improved installing a browser sure would be fast
  451. # [22:18] <hsivonen> What Gordon giveth, Bill taketh.
  452. # [22:19] <hsivonen> eww. Validator.nu is ugly in IE8b2
  453. # [22:19] <gsnedders> hsivonen: can you see if http://gsnedders.com is still badly screwed up?
  454. # [22:19] * Joins: harig (n=harig_in@85.196.122.246)
  455. # [22:20] <hsivonen> gsnedders: it isn't
  456. # [22:20] <hsivonen> except Windows font rendering is hideous
  457. # [22:20] <hsivonen> (and some people wanted Safari on Windows to use it)
  458. # [22:21] <Hixie> so does ie8 work in the live dom viewer yet
  459. # [22:21] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
  460. # [22:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: it at least doesn't render the link to it on damowmow portal
  461. # [22:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: it works!
  462. # [22:24] <Hixie> woot
  463. # [22:24] <Philip`> "Do you want to discover websites you might like based on websites you've visited?" - hmm
  464. # [22:25] <Philip`> Things like "<b style>" still don't show the attribute in the DOM view, though
  465. # [22:26] <Hixie> is that because the attribute isn't there?
  466. # [22:26] <Hixie> i just want it to reflect the dom
  467. # [22:26] <Philip`> Hmm, it works if you do <b style=color:black>
  468. # [22:27] <Philip`> where "works" means it shows B style="COLOR: black" in the DOM view
  469. # [22:27] <Hixie> ok i need to eat before i die of starvation
  470. # [22:27] <Hixie> and then i guess i'll respond to this svg proposal for parsing
  471. # [22:27] <Philip`> but <b style=color:blac> makes the attribute disappear
  472. # [22:27] <Hixie> Philip`: that's probably an accurate representation of the DOM
  473. # [22:29] <annevk> IE has some weird stuff going on
  474. # [22:30] * Joins: met_ (n=Hassman@rb5dr243.net.upc.cz)
  475. # [22:30] <annevk> (though it probably made sense at the time (I hope))
  476. # [22:30] * Quits: aroben_ (i=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Connection timed out)
  477. # [22:32] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.245)
  478. # [22:33] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  479. # [22:34] <Philip`> Hmm, I can't find any situations in which authoritative=true does anything at all
  480. # [22:35] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@80.187.145.66) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  481. # [22:35] * Joins: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@216.239.45.19)
  482. # [22:36] * Joins: aboodman3 (n=aboodman@nat/google/x-5faa54722960914f)
  483. # [22:38] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@rb5dr243.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  484. # [22:39] <Philip`> (nor does mshtml.dll contain the string "authoritative", so maybe they just haven't implemented it?)
  485. # [22:40] <Philip`> (unless it's implemented in some other component of Windows)
  486. # [22:40] <Philip`> (but it still doesn't seem to do anything at all in practice)
  487. # [22:43] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Lb31e.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  488. # [22:44] * gsnedders fails to find any further issues blocking release of the spec-gen
  489. # [22:45] * Joins: BenMillard (n=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  490. # [22:46] <Philip`> gsnedders: It needs a clever name before it's released
  491. # [22:47] <Philip`> "spec-gen" is a bit generic :-p
  492. # [22:47] <gsnedders> :P
  493. # [22:47] <annevk> also, drop the hyphen
  494. # [22:48] <annevk> specgen is easier
  495. # [22:49] <annevk> (you could call it "chameleon" referring to how you mimicked the original)
  496. # [22:50] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM119-72-7-143.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  497. # [22:50] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@nat/google/x-a7a08d27fdc3a006) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  498. # [22:53] <gsnedders> annevk: chameleon is taken :P
  499. # [22:53] <annevk> not for spec generators
  500. # [22:54] <annevk> I should ask, what do you mean with "taken"?
  501. # [22:54] * Quits: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@216.239.45.19) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  502. # [22:54] <gsnedders> annevk: Used by other software
  503. # [22:55] <annevk> "Chameleon Specgen" isn't
  504. # [22:55] <annevk> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22chameleon%20specgen%22
  505. # [22:55] * Quits: smedero (n=smedero@pia145-154.pioneernet.net)
  506. # [22:55] <annevk> though that's not really a good name :)
  507. # [22:55] <gsnedders> Anole?
  508. # [22:56] <gsnedders> Used too, actually
  509. # [22:56] <annevk> call it Anolis then or something like that
  510. # [22:57] <gsnedders> Inkfish?
  511. # [22:58] * Joins: smedero (n=smedero@pia145-154.pioneernet.net)
  512. # [22:58] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip75.unival.com) (".")
  513. # [22:59] <BenMillard> how about Geoffrey's Specification Generator (GGen/ggen)?
  514. # [22:59] <annevk> I don't really see the relation
  515. # [23:00] <annevk> "ggen is a 2-D geometry generator expressed as a c++ class library."
  516. # [23:00] <Philip`> Use the Hebrew alphabet for the name
  517. # [23:01] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Re: you're ability to navigate — I can fine. We should make it there and back fine :)
  518. # [23:01] <Philip`> (Er, not the whole alphabet, just some letters from it)
  519. # [23:01] <BenMillard> gsnedders, coolies :)
  520. # [23:01] <BenMillard> gsnedders, I take it we'll stay at the hotel annevk did 2 years ago?
  521. # [23:02] <gsnedders> BenMillard: What hotel did annevk stay at two years ago? :)
  522. # [23:02] <BenMillard> gsnedders, oh, forwarded to you
  523. # [23:03] <Lachy> Philip`, do you mean something like this? א
  524. # [23:03] * Quits: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  525. # [23:03] <Lachy> no idea what that means, but it's a hebrew character aparently
  526. # [23:03] <annevk> oops, forgot to cc gsnedders
  527. # [23:04] * gsnedders feels too lazy to bother to click the "English" link
  528. # [23:04] <gsnedders> BenMillard: We have our TV for the PS2! :)
  529. # [23:05] <BenMillard> gsnedders, good, the trip will be worthwhile after all! :D
  530. # [23:05] <gsnedders> umm¬
  531. # [23:05] <gsnedders> *umm…
  532. # [23:05] <gsnedders> "3eme personne dans la chambre, (sans lit) "
  533. # [23:05] <gsnedders> So, what? You sleep on the floor?
  534. # [23:05] <gsnedders> (that means three people in the bedroom, without bed)
  535. # [23:06] * gsnedders wonders if we could really book online when we only want the extra bed for three nights
  536. # [23:07] <gsnedders> heh. They're English is in parts on the website a literal translation from the French and odd :)
  537. # [23:07] <gsnedders> *Their
  538. # [23:07] <BenMillard> looking here, I see what you mean: http://www.villaparisiana.com/price.htm
  539. # [23:08] <BenMillard> "3rd person in room, (without bed) : 6 euros"
  540. # [23:08] <gsnedders> But also, "Lit supplémentaire"
  541. # [23:08] <gsnedders> (extra bed)
  542. # [23:08] <gsnedders> (however they translate that)
  543. # [23:08] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-269aba32bd0df6d6)
  544. # [23:08] <BenMillard> "Extra bed : 15 euros"
  545. # [23:08] <BenMillard> win!
  546. # [23:08] <gsnedders> totally.
  547. # [23:08] <annevk> just means you pay EUR 21 for the third person
  548. # [23:08] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Can you justify the cost of coming for a whole week now? :P
  549. # [23:09] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.244.16.245)
  550. # [23:09] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-9596199e4a18bc1b) ("The computer fell asleep")
  551. # [23:09] <annevk> I suggest taking the breakfast as well
  552. # [23:09] * gsnedders will undoubtedly get up too late for it :)
  553. # [23:10] <gsnedders> Last hotel I was at, I made breakfast zero out of three times.
  554. # [23:10] <BenMillard> I absolutely *must* eat a breakfast; ideally hot chocolate and cereal with a banana
  555. # [23:10] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Now, do we try and get three people in a small room or not?
  556. # [23:11] <annevk> I usually miss a few minutes of the relevant meeting :)
  557. # [23:11] * gsnedders had no breakfast today :P
  558. # [23:11] <BenMillard> gsnedders, I don't think we need to slum it too badly
  559. # [23:11] * gsnedders got into school late anyway
  560. # [23:11] <gsnedders> Nor do I :)
  561. # [23:12] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  562. # [23:12] <gsnedders> I mean, even the big rooms are cheaper than half what you'd pay sharing a room at the TPAC hotel
  563. # [23:12] <BenMillard> gsnedders, rooms don't look amazingly generous: http://www.villaparisiana.com/rooms.htm
  564. # [23:12] <BenMillard> so their idea of "small" might be "cupboard"
  565. # [23:12] <gsnedders> BenMillard: That was my thought :)
  566. # [23:12] <BenMillard> medium or large sounds good to me
  567. # [23:12] <gsnedders> We're middle/low season
  568. # [23:12] <gsnedders> (as we're there over the change)
  569. # [23:13] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip75.unival.com)
  570. # [23:13] <BenMillard> gsnedders, yeah
  571. # [23:13] * gsnedders still hasn't bothered clicking that English link
  572. # [23:13] <BenMillard> as well as 3 people (I'm about 6ft tall) we also must consider 3 people's bags of stuff
  573. # [23:14] <BenMillard> you two are there for like a week, so that volume may be non-trivial
  574. # [23:14] <gsnedders> And I'm away from home for two weeks
  575. # [23:14] <BenMillard> I'm thinking Large Room to be safe (and their idea of "Large" may not be that big anyway)
  576. # [23:14] <BenMillard> plus we're adding an extra bed
  577. # [23:14] <gsnedders> (Though that won't be much issue — I'll be staying with my uncle, so washing and the like can be done)
  578. # [23:14] <gsnedders> (so I only really need a week's stuff)
  579. # [23:15] <BenMillard> gsnedders, Large Room might get a better TV and more power outlets, too
  580. # [23:17] <gsnedders> 528EUR in total, by my calculation
  581. # [23:17] <gsnedders> (big room, inc. breakfast)
  582. # [23:17] <gsnedders> (exc. the 0.40 EUR tax per day per person)
  583. # [23:17] <gsnedders> EUR 176 if we split it equally, which is still less than one night in the TPAC hotel.
  584. # [23:17] <gsnedders> Heh.
  585. # [23:18] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Power outlets may be useful with three geeks :)
  586. # [23:18] <BenMillard> gsnedders, I have a mobile phone which eats battery life but no laptop
  587. # [23:18] <gsnedders> BenMillard: I have a mobile phone which doesn't eat battery life and a laptop
  588. # [23:18] <gsnedders> (which does)
  589. # [23:19] <BenMillard> gsnedders, splitting the price evenly seems fair enough to me, as I'll be making the room more cramped for the 2 nights I'm there, you'll be doing the meatspace navigation for me and I'm not footing the bill personally
  590. # [23:19] <gsnedders> BenMillard: :)
  591. # [23:19] <BenMillard> plus I'm bound to whip you at GT and make you cry
  592. # [23:19] * Quits: itpastorn (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net) (Connection timed out)
  593. # [23:20] <BenMillard> :P
  594. # [23:21] <gsnedders> BenMillard: If I get back in practice at playing such games on the PS2… :)
  595. # [23:21] * gsnedders has been playing Forza 2 on 360 a lot recently
  596. # [23:21] <gsnedders> it takes me a week or two to get fully up to speed on the PS2 controller
  597. # [23:21] <gsnedders> So, I guess I could start practising… :)
  598. # [23:22] <gsnedders> BenMillard: On Forza 2, in the time trial rankings, I'm #8xx, so rather high up :)
  599. # [23:23] * Quits: malde_ (n=chatzill@d021225.adsl.hansenet.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  600. # [23:24] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.180) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  601. # [23:24] <BenMillard> gsnedders, we can use different tyres and classes of car to balance things out, handicap starts, etc
  602. # [23:26] <Xenos> After the fifth day of PS2, smoking pot and eating junk food, someone goes "Wait, wasn't there a meeting we were supposed to go to?"
  603. # [23:27] <BenMillard> gsnedders, looking at the booking form, it seems 1 person books for everyone and we balance the money out afterwards? http://www.villaparisiana.com/contact_e.htm
  604. # [23:27] <BenMillard> ("Number of persons: 3" and "Number of rooms: 1")
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  614. # Session Close: Thu Aug 28 00:00:00 2008

The end :)