/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-08-31 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Sun Aug 31 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] * Joins: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  4. # [00:03] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.122.129)
  5. # [00:15] <gsnedders> Philip`: I don't think so. But it's not the best of specs.
  6. # [00:15] <gsnedders> Philip`: It doesn't require anything in specific in the case of invalid requests
  7. # [00:25] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.245)
  8. # [00:27] <annevk> Hmm, installing Python on DreamHost might be ok, but I can't even get lxml running in Ubuntu...
  9. # [00:42] * Hixie battles iPod and Time Machine woes
  10. # [00:42] <Hixie> looks like the USB ports on my cinema display are busted
  11. # [00:42] <Hixie> no idea how THAT happened
  12. # [00:43] <Philip`> Maybe they're jammed full of popcorn and coke
  13. # [00:51] <annevk> nn
  14. # [01:16] <Philip`> http://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/cppguide.xml doesn't work in Opera :-(
  15. # [01:16] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  16. # [01:16] <Philip`> e.g. it says "The format of the symbol name should be ___H_." instead of "The format of the symbol name should be <PROJECT>_<PATH>_<FILE>_H_."
  17. # [01:17] <Philip`> (XSLT, yay)
  18. # [01:25] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@adsl-77-86-6-71.karoo.KCOM.COM) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  19. # [01:44] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@cc356098-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  20. # [01:46] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@91.85.150.57)
  21. # [01:53] * Quits: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) (Connection timed out)
  22. # [02:12] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  23. # [02:13] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  24. # [02:44] * Quits: MacDome (n=eric@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  25. # [03:37] * Joins: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@163.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
  26. # [03:39] <Hixie> did hsivonen mention if he was going to send an analysis of his data?
  27. # [03:44] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@cpe-069-134-123-228.nc.res.rr.com)
  28. # [03:45] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@163.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  29. # [04:33] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@cpe-069-134-123-228.nc.res.rr.com)
  30. # [04:43] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-ade8156ca560b392)
  31. # [04:48] * Quits: scotfl (n=scotfl@S0106001b114f914a.ss.shawcable.net)
  32. # [05:17] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  33. # [06:30] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@modemcable144.140-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  34. # [07:41] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  35. # [07:51] <BenMillard> hello, is anyone here?
  36. # [08:04] <BenMillard> well, to anyone who reads the logs: I realised that redesigning the complexdatatable.html (test file 3) was suggested by a couple of people (including me), nobody has yet produced a redesigned variant for further review
  37. # [08:05] <BenMillard> so that's what I've been doing during the small hours of this morning, typing my reasoning as I go
  38. # [08:06] <BenMillard> since nobody is here, I'll go to sleep and return some time later...just thought this should be recorded somewhere
  39. # [08:06] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  40. # [09:16] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p3216-ipbf5106marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  41. # [09:51] <annevk> Hixie, no
  42. # [09:55] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203) (Remote closed the connection)
  43. # [09:56] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  44. # [10:13] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl)
  45. # [10:32] * virtuelv_ is now known as virtuelv
  46. # [10:42] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  47. # [10:49] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p3216-ipbf5106marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  48. # [11:05] * Joins: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  49. # [11:05] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  50. # [11:14] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@adsl-77-86-6-71.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  51. # [11:43] <annevk> html4all mailing list is funny
  52. # [11:43] <annevk> especially this recent debate between RB and LHS about what Hixie might have meant with "defining error handling"
  53. # [11:57] * Quits: GregHouston (n=ghouston@ppp-66-143-220-108.dsl.spfdmo.swbell.net) ("...")
  54. # [12:29] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@213-64-31-15-no37.business.telia.com)
  55. # [12:36] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  56. # [12:41] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@213-64-31-15-no37.business.telia.com)
  57. # [12:44] <annevk> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.html/msg/9d28ed5dc4c9fa36 "HTML 5 is a bunch of crazy egotists breaking stuff to no benefit."
  58. # [12:46] <Lachy> hah
  59. # [12:51] <annevk> these people see right through us, it's scary
  60. # [12:51] <annevk> in other news, base2 from Dean Edwards will support element.classList
  61. # [12:55] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  62. # [13:03] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.122.129) (Remote closed the connection)
  63. # [13:12] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  64. # [13:14] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.245) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  65. # [13:42] <Lachy> The XSLT void element thread is getting annoying.
  66. # [13:43] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  67. # [13:44] * Philip` doesn't see why
  68. # [13:47] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  69. # [13:54] <jgraham> Lachy: FWIW I think Julian has a reasonable point
  70. # [13:55] <jgraham> I don't see the harm in allowing <eventsource></eventsource> as long as the closing tag immediatley follows the opening tag
  71. # [13:55] <jgraham> I would basically expect the parser to drop the closing tag
  72. # [13:56] <jgraham> So <eventsource>foo</eventsource> would be parsed like <eventsource>foo
  73. # [13:57] * jgraham has wasted enough time on the html-wg today
  74. # [13:59] <jgraham> It would be different to </br> but not too different from <script> which requires a closing tag even when it is effectively void
  75. # [14:00] <webben_> jgraham: I thought a point was made that IE treats void element starting tags as self-closing?
  76. # [14:01] <jgraham> webben_: Maybe I haven't been following too closely. But I don't quite understand what you mean
  77. # [14:02] <webben_> actually, reading it again, I'm not sure what Robert meant
  78. # [14:02] <webben_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0935.html
  79. # [14:02] <webben_> "IE treats unknown elements as void elements (adding the next element
  80. # [14:02] <webben_> as a next sibling)"
  81. # [14:03] <webben_> i'm not sure what that means in terms of how IE treats tags
  82. # [14:10] * Joins: robburns (n=robburns@79.173.214.172)
  83. # [14:10] <robburns> hi webben
  84. # [14:10] <robburns> an example
  85. # [14:10] <robburns> <header>
  86. # [14:10] <robburns> some contents
  87. # [14:10] <robburns> </header>
  88. # [14:10] <robburns> In DOM as:
  89. # [14:10] <robburns> html
  90. # [14:10] <robburns> ⋮
  91. # [14:10] <robburns> header
  92. # [14:10] <robburns> #text: some contents
  93. # [14:10] <robburns> /header
  94. # [14:10] <robburns> Instead of
  95. # [14:10] <robburns> html
  96. # [14:11] <robburns> ⋮
  97. # [14:11] <robburns> header
  98. # [14:11] <robburns> #text: some contents
  99. # [14:11] <robburns> that's how IE will process an unknown non-void (HTML5 in this case) element
  100. # [14:11] <robburns> webbeb_
  101. # [14:14] <robburns> but on the other hand in Gecko
  102. # [14:15] <robburns> <p>
  103. # [14:15] <robburns> <eventsource>
  104. # [14:15] <robburns> some contents
  105. # [14:15] <robburns> </p>
  106. # [14:15] <robburns> html
  107. # [14:15] <robburns> ⋮
  108. # [14:15] <robburns> p
  109. # [14:15] <robburns> eventsource
  110. # [14:15] <robburns> #text: contents
  111. # [14:15] <robburns> instead of html
  112. # [14:15] <robburns> ⋮
  113. # [14:15] <robburns> p
  114. # [14:15] <robburns> eventsource
  115. # [14:15] <robburns> #text: contents
  116. # [14:16] * Quits: robburns (n=robburns@79.173.214.172)
  117. # [14:17] <Philip`> (Actually it'd be called HEADER and /HEADER, not header and /header)
  118. # [14:17] <Philip`> (Wait, am I confused?)
  119. # [14:17] * Joins: robburns (n=robburns@79.173.214.172)
  120. # [14:18] <Philip`> (At least I think IE does something funny with the case of unrecognised tags)
  121. # [14:18] <robburns> though in Firefox 3, the P element does not get implicitly closed (I think earlier versions would)
  122. # [14:18] <robburns> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cp%3E%0A%3Ceventsource%3E%0Acontent%0A%3C%2Fp%3E
  123. # [14:18] <Philip`> (Ah, right, it's if you do document.createElement('header') then the element is called "header" instead of "HEADER")
  124. # [14:20] <robburns> That's with the DOM, but with deserializing tex/thml 'header' will be 'HEADER', but it will be a void element followed by '/HEADER' (another void element)
  125. # [14:20] <robburns> in IE that is
  126. # [14:21] <robburns> s/ text/html / tex/thml
  127. # [14:21] * Quits: robburns (n=robburns@79.173.214.172) (Client Quit)
  128. # [14:22] <Philip`> It's not just for elements created by the DOM APIs: if you write <script>document.createElement('header')</script> then any subsequent <header>...</header> in the HTML markup will be treated as an element named 'header' with content, rather than as empty 'HEADER' + content + empty '/HEADER', because IE is insane
  129. # [14:22] <Philip`> but that's not particularly relevant to the point anyway
  130. # [14:26] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@La97f.l.pppool.de)
  131. # [14:43] * gsnedders says hi to all the bureaucracy trolls
  132. # [14:55] * jgraham wonders if that is supposed to include him
  133. # [14:57] * jgraham doesn't see himself as trolling
  134. # [14:58] <jgraham> Since AFAICT the charter is designed to prevent exactly this
  135. # [14:58] <Lachy> jgraham, I disagree. We shouldn't let the limitations of tools like XSLT that clearly weren't designed to handle HTML well guide the development of HTML5.
  136. # [14:59] <Lachy> also, allowing </foo> for new void elements, but not for previously existing void elements makes things inconsistent.
  137. # [15:00] <jgraham> Lachy: I agree about the inconsistent part but that seems to have been a weak argument elsewhere (I think <a> enclosing blocks is a bad idea because it introduces inconsistencies)
  138. # [15:00] <jgraham> If the problem is XSLT-only it's not worth worrying about
  139. # [15:01] <jgraham> But if it is more general, it seems bad to couple the serializer to the version of the language being output
  140. # [15:02] <jgraham> because it makes migration hard
  141. # [15:02] <jgraham> anyway I don't care very much
  142. # [15:05] <Lachy> so far, the problem is XSLT only. No other tool has been mentioned with the problem
  143. # [15:06] <Lachy> and I just don't want XSLT to have any impact on the development of HTML5
  144. # [15:07] <webben_> I think the key thing is to ensure that XML output by XSLT can be translated with FOSS tools to text/html HTML5.
  145. # [15:08] <webben_> what I'm not sure about is what a tool is supposed to do if it gets XML that can't be translated to text/html HTML5.
  146. # [15:09] <webben_> e.g. <p>foo<blockquote><p>bar</p></blockquote></p>
  147. # [15:15] <gsnedders> webben_: It should do a backflip?
  148. # [15:15] <gsnedders> webben_: I mean, we already require UAs to take a deep breath in a certain case when parsing HTML
  149. # [15:15] <Lachy> webben_, you just have to accept that not all possible XML trees can be losslessly converted to HTML
  150. # [15:16] <Lachy> webben_, especially in cases like that which are invalid in XHTML too
  151. # [15:16] * Joins: webben (n=benh@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  152. # [15:18] <Lachy> webben, incase you missed my messages just then due to connection issues, http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080831#l-149
  153. # [15:18] <webben> ta Lachy :)
  154. # [15:19] <webben> well, in this case, it's lossy because no feature has been provided to make it unlossy, not because of some sort of fundamental lack in text/html.
  155. # [15:20] <webben> but the worry is not just that it's lossy, but that such a tool would properly want to handle it somehow
  156. # [15:20] <webben> at which point you end up with differing implementations.
  157. # [15:20] <webben> that's not invalid in XML serialization of HTML5.
  158. # [15:21] <Lachy> it would have to make the blockquote a sibling of the p instead, and possibly create a new p after it
  159. # [15:21] <webben> it could do that. it wouldn't _have_ to.
  160. # [15:21] <Lachy> so <p>foo<blockquote>bar</blockquote>baz</p> would become <p>foo</p><blockquote>bar</blockquote><p>baz</p>
  161. # [15:21] <webben> another approach, for example, would be to go lossy in a different manner
  162. # [15:21] <webben> by genericising the p to a div.
  163. # [15:22] <webben> or processing agents could attach a class to the second p in an attempt to indicate what's happened.
  164. # [15:22] <Lachy> so it would become this instead? <div>foo<blockquote>bar</blockquote>baz</div>
  165. # [15:22] <webben> could do.
  166. # [15:23] <Lachy> perhaps the right solution is for the tool to check with the user what he wants to do
  167. # [15:23] <webben> that simply passes the problem on
  168. # [15:24] <Lachy> so do you want the spec to define how to serialise it?
  169. # [15:24] <webben> I'd prefer that, yes.
  170. # [15:24] <webben> i'd prefer the spec to define how XML HTML5 should be converted to text/html HTML5.
  171. # [15:24] <gsnedders> and the other way too
  172. # [15:24] <webben> yep
  173. # [15:25] <Philip`> webben: Like http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/serializing.html#serializing ?
  174. # [15:25] <gsnedders> Henri sent something about it a while back
  175. # [15:25] <gsnedders> Like, what he does in the validator
  176. # [15:25] * Philip` doesn't know whether that algorithm is inappropriate for this
  177. # [15:27] <webben> that appears to do it.
  178. # [15:27] <webben> I don't like how it does it, but at least it does it.
  179. # [15:27] <Lachy> Philip`, that algorithm in the spec doesn't seem to have any special handling for the case being discussed. AFAICT, it would just output an invalid fragment
  180. # [15:29] <webben> the note says: "having a p element that contains a ul element (as the ul element's start tag would imply the end tag for the p"
  181. # [15:30] <Lachy> but that seems to be what Firefox does anyway
  182. # [15:30] <webben> does the algorithm not match the note?
  183. # [15:30] <Lachy> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cscript%3E%0Avar%20div%20%3D%20document.createElement(%22div%22)%3B%0Avar%20p%20%3D%20document.createElement(%22p%22)%3B%0Avar%20bq%20%3D%20document.createElement(%22blockquote%22)%3B%0Adiv.appendChild(p)%3B%0Ap.appendChild(bq)%3B%0Aw(div.innerHTML)%3B%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E%0A
  184. # [15:30] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@cpe-069-134-123-228.nc.res.rr.com)
  185. # [15:31] * Quits: webben_ (n=benh@91.85.150.57) (Connection timed out)
  186. # [15:39] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@adsl-77-86-6-71.karoo.KCOM.COM) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9/2008061013]")
  187. # [16:10] * Joins: tndH (i=Rob@adsl-77-86-6-71.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  188. # [16:29] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@La97f.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  189. # [16:38] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p3216-ipbf5106marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  190. # [16:47] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  191. # [16:47] * gsnedders wonders what he's meant to know for physics test tomorrow
  192. # [16:56] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  193. # [17:14] * Joins: robburns (n=robburns@79.173.244.244)
  194. # [17:15] * Quits: robburns (n=robburns@79.173.244.244) (Client Quit)
  195. # [17:27] * Quits: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@h123-176-107-050.catv01.catv-yokohama.ne.jp) ("Tiarra 0.1+svn-17280: SIGINT received; exit")
  196. # [17:29] * Joins: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@h123-176-107-050.catv01.catv-yokohama.ne.jp)
  197. # [17:29] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-217-149.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) ("Killin' teh intarwebs")
  198. # [17:38] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-217-149.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
  199. # [17:41] <Philip`> gsnedders: Remember that gravity goes downwards
  200. # [17:41] <Philip`> That's probably enough for a few marks
  201. # [17:49] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  202. # [17:59] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@modemcable144.140-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  203. # [18:11] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@La97f.l.pppool.de)
  204. # [18:22] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  205. # [18:23] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  206. # [18:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: yes, I intend to follow up with more opinion and analysis regarding the validation results
  207. # [18:29] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p3216-ipbf5106marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  208. # [18:58] * Joins: malde_ (n=chatzill@d042081.adsl.hansenet.de)
  209. # [19:01] * Quits: starjive (i=beos@213-66-217-32-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  210. # [19:14] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  211. # [19:30] <gsnedders> Philip`: :)
  212. # [19:30] <gsnedders> Philip`: Actually, with what will be in the test, gravity may as well not exist
  213. # [19:45] <hsivonen> Lachy: no, I didn't mean a kernel panic. I meant the screen turning blue with an occasional large instance of the spinning petals at the location where they appear a moment before shutdown
  214. # [19:46] <hsivonen> Lachy: Macs draw a light blue screen when there's nothing drawing the desktop background
  215. # [19:50] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I don't have a mapping from non-conforming application/xhtml+xml onto text/html
  216. # [19:50] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I thought I saw an email from you about that a while ago
  217. # [19:50] * gsnedders shrugs
  218. # [19:51] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I have mappings from text/html onto XML, text/html onto Jing compatible XML-violating SAX and conforming application/xhtml+xml onto text/html
  219. # [19:51] <hsivonen> gsnedders: are you sure my email wasn't about going in the other direction than what webben asked about?
  220. # [19:51] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Myself and webben were saying both directions
  221. # [19:51] <hsivonen> ah ok.
  222. # [19:51] <gsnedders> hsivonen: So you have part of that
  223. # [19:52] <hsivonen> I have text/html to XML (covered by spec) and *conforming* application/xhtml+xml to text/html (not covered by the spec)
  224. # [19:53] <hsivonen> I'd love to see a sane and uncontroversial mapping from non-conforming application/xhtml+xml onto text/html
  225. # [20:00] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Where is text/html to XML covered in the spec?
  226. # [20:11] <hsivonen> gsnedders: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#coercing
  227. # [20:12] <gsnedders> Hixie: typo: mutatiosn
  228. # [20:18] <hsivonen> so now Google is saying Android supports H.264
  229. # [20:18] <hsivonen> what's the licensing story?
  230. # [20:46] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.123.150)
  231. # [20:59] <Lachy> hsivonen, where did you find that Android supports h.264?
  232. # [21:00] <hsivonen> Lachy: http://code.google.com/android/what-is-android.html
  233. # [21:01] <Lachy> Android uses the Apache2 licence
  234. # [21:01] <hsivonen> Lachy: it has patent language
  235. # [21:01] <hsivonen> how does that work with MPEG-LA?
  236. # [21:02] <Lachy> I don't know. What does the apache licence say about patents/
  237. # [21:02] <Lachy> ?
  238. # [21:02] <Dashiva> It says "based on PacketVideo's OpenCORE" whatever that is
  239. # [21:03] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@123.sub-70-212-134.myvzw.com)
  240. # [21:03] <hsivonen> Lachy: hmm. actually, it only talks about patents that are licensable by a Contributor
  241. # [21:06] <Lachy> it's possible that Andriod could include closed source codecs for h264, and other patent encumbered stuff
  242. # [21:11] <gsnedders> Probably can be disabled in the build, and can be used only by those with licenses
  243. # [21:23] <hsivonen> hmm. the Microsoft EOT marketing partner Ascender made the Droid fonts
  244. # [21:29] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  245. # [21:30] <hsivonen> boohoo. Droid isn't Free as in Free Softwarle
  246. # [21:30] <hsivonen> Software even
  247. # [21:33] * gsnedders is feeling that Sunday evening feeling: he ought to do homework for tomorrow.
  248. # [21:36] * Quits: malde_ (n=chatzill@d042081.adsl.hansenet.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  249. # [21:36] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@123.sub-70-212-134.myvzw.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  250. # [22:07] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@La97f.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  251. # [22:08] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  252. # [22:12] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@163.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  253. # [22:18] * Joins: GregHouston (n=ghouston@ppp-66-143-220-108.dsl.spfdmo.swbell.net)
  254. # [22:21] <hsivonen> http://twitter.com/stevefaulkner/statuses/902493395
  255. # [22:28] * Joins: hdh0 (n=hdh@118.71.123.191)
  256. # [22:30] <othermaciej> hsivonen: self-fulfilling prophecy!
  257. # [22:45] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.123.150) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  258. # [23:02] <gsnedders> Hixie: You have any thoughts on making the spec-gen able to split a spec?
  259. # [23:08] * gsnedders blogs http://gsnedders.com/anolis
  260. # [23:18] <Philip`> gsnedders: Why should that be part of the spec-gen, rather than a separate tool?
  261. # [23:20] <Philip`> gsnedders: s/it's/its/ :-p
  262. # [23:22] <Philip`> gsnedders: The filenames ought to say what the file is, rather than just being "1.0RC1.tar.bz2", else I'll forget what ~/download/1.0RC1.tar.bz2 is and it will annoy me
  263. # [23:24] <gsnedders> Philip`: The alternative is just to call it the revision hash :P
  264. # [23:25] <Philip`> gsnedders: The alternative is to call it anolis-1.0RC1.tar.bz2, and if Mercurial makes that alternative hard then I don't care and it's your problem :-p
  265. # [23:25] <gsnedders> Philip`: :P
  266. # [23:25] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  267. # [23:25] <Philip`> You could set up a script that downloads the archive files from Mercurial and renames them and copies them to a proper web server or something
  268. # [23:26] * gsnedders is too lazy :P
  269. # [23:28] <Philip`> gsnedders: But you're not too lazy to go to all the effort of having Release Candidates and documentation and everything? :-)
  270. # [23:29] <gsnedders> Philip`: RCs are no effort. `hg tag 1.0RC1` and wait for people to bitch about a bug
  271. # [23:29] <gsnedders> Philip`: It's more a spec of what it does than a doc, covering all minor details, so if you want to copy it you can do it without looking at the code :P
  272. # [23:30] * Philip` wonders why anyone would want to do that
  273. # [23:30] <gsnedders> Philip`: Well I did it to the CSS3 Module Postprocessor, didn't I?
  274. # [23:31] <Philip`> gsnedders: As far as I'm aware, you copied it without looking at the code because you couldn't copy its code, which is not a problem anyone would have when wanting to copy your code
  275. # [23:31] <gsnedders> Philip`: I could look at some of the code.
  276. # [23:32] <Philip`> Did you?
  277. # [23:32] <gsnedders> Yes, then couldn't work out how it dealt with some edge cases how it did, so went back to reverse-engineering it
  278. # [23:32] <gsnedders> (the issue really being my knowledge of C)
  279. # [23:32] <Philip`> Oh, okay
  280. # [23:33] <Philip`> I suppose if you don't like reading the code then that'd be a reason to copy it without reading the code
  281. # [23:34] <gsnedders> I could've looked at the C spec, but I thought it'd be just as easy to create a test case :P
  282. # [23:38] <Philip`> I think a book on C would be somewhat more useful than the C spec
  283. # [23:39] <Philip`> (unless you were trying to implement a C compiler yourself)
  284. # [23:39] <Philip`> (which is not entirely recommended)
  285. # [23:40] <Philip`> (and if you were implementing a C compiler, you'd probably want to start with the "how to write a C compiler" book instead of the specification)
  286. # [23:50] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  287. # [23:51] <jcranmer> well, it is an ISO spec
  288. # [23:51] <jcranmer> but it's not unreadable
  289. # [23:52] <jcranmer> then again, I *am* the kind of person who finds reading the contractual agreement that comes with your bank account quite fun to read...
  290. # [23:53] <hsivonen> ISO drafting rules suck
  291. # [23:53] <hsivonen> is the C spec available online?
  292. # [23:53] <hsivonen> I'm interested in seeing an ISO spec that is not unreadable
  293. # [23:54] * hsivonen googles
  294. # [23:54] <jcranmer> you have to pay for the specs, but any drafts you happen along are free :-)
  295. # [23:54] * jcranmer points to the draft C++0x spec sitting on his hard drive
  296. # [23:55] <Philip`> I'd agree it's not unreadable - I've occasionally referred to it when attempting to prove a pedantic point to somebody, and it mostly made sense to me, but it's not so good for someone who doesn't already know C well
  297. # [23:56] * gsnedders has a draft C99
  298. # [23:56] <Philip`> and I don't think I'd be happy with it if I was looking for some higher-level information, since it's just focussed on the details
  299. # [23:57] <jcranmer> you have to know how everything lays out at a high level before you dive into a spe
  300. # [23:57] <jcranmer> spec
  301. # [23:58] <hsivonen> wow. the ISO C spec actually looks more readable than a run-of-the-mill ISO spec
  302. # [23:59] <jcranmer> ISO C++ is fairly approachable, if you use <Ctrl>-F
  303. # Session Close: Mon Sep 01 00:00:00 2008

The end :)