/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-09-01 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Sep 01 00:00:00 2008
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:02] <gsnedders> Find makes most docs readable
# [00:02] <jcranmer> not the OOXML spec!
# [00:02] <Philip`> Has anybody noticed that while IE's x-ua-compatible at least attempts to support non-IE browsers by allowing strings like "FF=4", its document.documentMode doesn't at all (since it just returns the IE version number)?
# [00:05] <hsivonen> the points made about hyatt's mythicalness are a bit repetitive
# [00:06] <Hixie> hsivonen: the harm language="" brings is that people typo it all the time and it'd be better to have people type type="" instead.
# [00:06] <Philip`> But they seem true
# [00:06] <Hixie> regarding <foo></foo> vs <foo>, because of the parser model the </foo> would not have any effect, but it would mislead people into thinking that <foo>x</foo> was a <foo> containing an x
# [00:06] <Hixie> so it's bad
# [00:06] <jcranmer> you'd be surprised at how bad people are at spelling
# [00:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: the validator helps people spell it right :-)
# [00:07] <jcranmer> I have a nice, phonetic last name and 85+% of people manage to both misspell and mispronounce it...
# [00:07] <Hixie> hsivonen: apparently not enough people :-)
# [00:08] <jcranmer> I figure if people misspell my last name with such frequency, any word greater than about 7 characters will be too long to spell correctly
# [00:10] <hsivonen> Hixie: so if type=text/javascript, language=JavaScript and langauge=JavaScript are no-ops, why is allowing language=JavaScript a problem?
# [00:11] <Philip`> Hixie: If many people were misled that way, wouldn't <embed>x</embed> be much more common than it is?
# [00:11] <Philip`> jcranmer: I've never had such problems with my last name, but I often do with my first name :-(
# [00:11] <Hixie> hsivonen: because people will think language="" isn't a no-op, and attempt to include on other pages, and will mistype it, leading to validation errors and wasted time.
# [00:12] <Hixie> Philip`: </embed> is pretty damn common. i haven't checked to see how many </embed>s aren't immediately behind the <embed> they supposedly match.
# [00:13] <Philip`> More than the number of people who already use language correctly, and would get validation errors when switching to HTML5, and would waste time?
# [00:13] <Philip`> Hixie: I've only seen ones containing whitespace,  , <br>, etc, and <noembed>
# [00:13] * jcranmer notes that hsivonen himself (herself?) misspelled 'language'
# [00:14] <hsivonen> jcranmer: I misspelled it once on purpose above
# [00:14] <Hixie> Philip`: i think we need a better transition story
# [00:14] <hsivonen> jcranmer: did I misspell it also accidentally?
# [00:14] <jcranmer> if you did it on purpose, then no
# [00:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: why isn't type=text/javascript non-conforming?
# [00:15] <Hixie> hsivonen: because we need to have a type="" to handle other types of scripts, and if we don't have a type for javascript, people will ask what the type is for javascript.
# [00:16] <Hixie> brb
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# [00:27] <Philip`> Hmm, I think IE8b2 never renders pages in IE7-mode unless explicitly told to, regardless of doctype
# [00:28] <Philip`> i.e. pages that used to be quirks mode are IE5-mode, and pages that used to be standards mode are IE8-mode
# [00:28] <gsnedders> That's what IE8b1 did :P
# [00:29] <Philip`> I thought it made recognised standards-mode doctypes trigger IE7 mode
# [00:29] <Philip`> Wait, I'm probably confused
# [00:29] <Philip`> That's what it was going to do before they changed it
# [00:29] <Philip`> I think
# [00:30] <gsnedders> They changed it before b1
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# [00:32] <Philip`> Hmm... If I have a standards-mode page with an iframe with quirks-mode content, then document.querySelector === undefined from code within it; but iframe.contentWindow.document.querySelector == some function from the container document
# [00:33] <gsnedders> heh
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# [00:38] <roc> yeah
# [00:38] <roc> it's a very deep hole the IE team is digging
# [00:39] <gsnedders> roc: What's the escape velocity?
# [00:39] <roc> and the really bad news is that with every release it will get a lot worse
# [00:40] <roc> there is no escape :-)
# [00:40] <gsnedders> So above 3*10^8?
# [00:40] <gsnedders> (ms^{-1})
# [00:40] <roc> there's always Hawking raditation
# [00:40] <roc> but that's not a fun way to travel
# [00:41] <gsnedders> Hawking radiation?
# [00:41] * gsnedders notes his physics has limits
# [00:41] <roc> so does mine, so I refer you to the Internet
# [00:42] <gsnedders> What's that?
# [00:42] <Philip`> It's fun how IE8's script debugger shows that element collection objects have properties named "length" and "ie8_length"
# [00:42] <Philip`> and some other type of object has properties "item", "namedItem", "ie8_item" and "ie8_namedItem"
# [00:43] <roc> heh
# [00:43] <Philip`> Hawking radiation = matter/antimatter pair randomly springs into existence near a black hole, antimatter particle falls in, matter particle falls out, black hole radiates and shrinks, if I remember correctly
# [00:44] <Philip`> Please don't ask me why it's the antimatter particle and not the matter particle that falls into the black hole
# [00:47] <gsnedders> why is it the antimatter particle and not the matter particle that falls into the black hole?
# [00:48] <Dashiva> If only Philip` had used RDFa in his IRC text, we could make a machine reason out the answer for us
# [00:48] <Philip`> Hmm, Wikipedia effectively says it's to conserve energy
# [00:49] <Philip`> (i.e. if the antiparticle (apparently not actually antimatter) with negative energy escapes from the hole, then it violates conservation of energy, for some reason)
# [00:52] <annevk2> gsnedders, I commented on your blog, not sure it had effect
# [00:57] * jgraham has notion that the particle/antiparticle thing is a ort of lie to children
# [00:57] <Philip`> By "children" you mean "physics undergraduates"? ;-)
# [00:57] <BenMillard> jgraham, I see the headers thread continued along the lines of Process instead of facts
# [01:03] * annevk2 is now known as annevk
# [01:04] <jgraham> BenMillard: Yeah. It has become quite soul destroying. This may be partially my fault, I don't know.
# [01:05] <jgraham> Philip`: Well I actually meant "people who read popular science books". Physics undergrads don't learn about hawking radiation
# [01:19] <Dashiva> "First of all, it's not like this code needs to be maintained *once*, it needs maintenance every time the set of void elements change. I would call this a stupid design of the target language."
# [01:19] <Hixie> we did learn about particle and anti particles in undergrad
# [01:19] <Dashiva> I'm tempted to reassign the "stupid design" tag to whoever decided it was a good idea to output HTML with XSLT :)
# [01:20] <Hixie> can't recall if the hawking radiation was part of the discussion though
# [01:20] <Hixie> anyway, bbl
# [01:22] <Lachy> jgraham, what is it about particles and antiparticles that is a lie?
# [01:23] <Lachy> Is it just the fact that the antiparticle is also a particle, just with opposite charge (or something like that)?
# [01:24] <annevk> Dashiva, yeah, I don't really get why we need to fix HTML5 while they really want to fix IE...
# [01:25] <BenMillard> jgraham, I'm redesigning the test file table to see if our views on that making it better are true or not
# [01:26] <Lachy> BenMillard, did you get that table I emailed you? Have you had a chance to investigate it yet?
# [01:27] <Dashiva> National Enquirer: Dave Hyatt spotted in Memphis supermarket
# [01:28] <roc> Lachy: it's not that it's a lie exactly ... the truth is a bunch of mathematics. Then to explain it to people, the physicists have to say something which is an English approximation to the mathematics. And the approximation is necessarily rough.
# [01:28] <BenMillard> Lachy, checking inbox now
# [01:28] <BenMillard> Lachy, oh you mean the search result table? Yeah, I got it.
# [01:28] <annevk> Dashiva, :p
# [01:30] <BenMillard> Lachy, I filed in my "Research" folder for now.
# [01:33] <BenMillard> Lachy, summary="Post query results" stood out as being text which would be better in <caption> or just omitted, since there's a preceeding heading which says "Displaying 1 to 50 of 854 reports"
# [01:35] <Lachy> how do the various header algorithms deal with the dual-row items, each grouped by its own tbody?
# [01:36] <BenMillard> Lachy, some header cells aren't using <th>, but if they were then parts of it would work
# [01:36] <jgraham> Lachy: Nothing. I meant as an explaination for Hawking radiation
# [01:37] <Lachy> in a way, it seemed much like a demo table I presented once before with a similar dual-tr structure. http://lachy.id.au/dev/2007/table-headers.html
# [01:38] <BenMillard> Lachy, that table you just linked to is badly designed in several respects, imho.
# [01:38] <BenMillard> it uses 2 levels of column headers but they don't make sense stacked up like that
# [01:40] <BenMillard> the header cells and each row of data can be flatted to 1 row each, making it into a regular table that works without with plain <th>
# [01:40] <BenMillard> Title Last Name First Name Middle Name Date of Birth Mailing Address City Zip Code
# [01:41] <BenMillard> erm, "Title; Last Name; First Name; Middle Name; Date of Birth; Mailing Address; City; Zip Code"
# [01:42] <BenMillard> an interesting thing in the query table, which the "smart colspan" step handles, is what I call "sectional headers"
# [01:43] <Philip`> roc: Perhaps for physicists to explain it to themselves, they have to say something which is a mathematical approximation to the reality, and that approximation is necessarily rough
# [01:43] <BenMillard> these are cells which colspan the entire width of the table, creating implicit sections but where the main headers at the start of the table must still penetrate
# [01:43] <BenMillard> Lachy, for example (if it were using <th>): <td colspan="6"> 29 Aug 2008 </td>
# [01:43] <roc> that's not how it works
# [01:45] <BenMillard> Lachy, much like the table you linked to, the search query table is packing information into cells where it isn't logical to put it
# [01:46] <BenMillard> Lachy, refreshing to see it using <li> for pagination links, though :) It follows a common design pattern for their order and delinks current location, which is all cool.
# [01:48] <BenMillard> Lachy, it uses <tbody class> to avoid lots of presentational markup. neat
# [01:49] <BenMillard> Lachy, it contains unlabelled checkboxes (sad and much more common than labelled checkboxes for things like this, from what I've seen)
# [01:50] <BenMillard> Lachy, the alt text is sensible and useful on the whole. :)
# [01:50] <BenMillard> Lachy, <a href target="_blank"> :(
# [01:57] <Lachy> BenMillard, that table I linked to was actually designed by the designer of a project I was working on, cause it needed to have all that information fit into a narrow space that wouldn't handle having it all in a single row
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# [02:00] <Lachy> I didn't notice the target=_blank. Since I have support for that disabled in my browser, it never really bothers me in practice, unless the site actually depends on the new window opening for some functionality
# [02:03] <BenMillard> Lachy, I set mine the same way. :)
# [02:04] <BenMillard> Needing to cramming too much data into too little width is a fairly common problem...I often come across it in my day job as a website developer.
# [02:04] <BenMillard> my favoured solution is to cut the data down so only the most useful stuff is shown, then it usually fits
# [02:05] <BenMillard> (sometimes linking each entry to a page where all the rest of the data is available)
# [02:05] <Lachy> yeah, that's what I try to do. But when I'm not in control of the content, and I just have to implement what the client wants, there's little I can do
# [02:05] <BenMillard> Lachy, that's also an experience I share. :(
# [02:06] <BenMillard> right, time for dinner...probably return in ~1 hour
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# [02:08] <Lachy> hmm, it seems that of all the media players I have, trying to find one that supports playing MKV that contains 2 1080p VC-1 video tracks and 5 AC3 audio tracks, and has UI for selecting which of those tracks to play, is a lot harder than I thought it would be :-(
# [02:08] <Philip`> Even VLC?
# [02:08] <Lachy> VLC doesn't support VC-1
# [02:08] <Lachy> yet
# [02:09] <Lachy> QuickTime might work, but with the Perian plugin, it takes forever to finish loading MKV videos, and while it's loading, it's having trouble playing the HD
# [02:12] <Lachy> I suppose I should just remux them into separate files, one for each video track. Though it's a full quality blu-ray rip and I wanted to have it all self contained in one.
# [02:13] <Lachy> Zoom player seems to work on windows, but it has some bugs
# [02:14] <GregHouston> I haven't had much luck with MKV in general. It's probably user error, but I tried it out a couple times about 6 months apart with 3 different media players and an assortment of MKV files. My playback was always choppy and the audio was out of sync.
# [02:15] <Philip`> You could buy a Blu-Ray player and the movie disc instead :-)
# [02:16] <Lachy> Philip`, you're assuming I actually have the disc :-)
# [02:16] <GregHouston> Indeed. :)
# [02:16] <Philip`> Lachy: That's why I said "buy" :-p
# [02:17] <Lachy> oh, ok. I thought you just said to buy the player
# [02:17] <Philip`> I used the word "and", to indicate that I meant both :-)
# [02:18] <Lachy> I'll get a blu-ray player from Australia when a) I get confirmation that the manufacturer is legally required to sell in region free (or at least provide RPC-1 firmware on request), and b) blu-ray drives are available for Mac, and c) I can afford to replace my current Macs
# [02:19] <Philip`> So in the meantime, you deserve to get everything for free? :-)
# [02:19] <Lachy> I'm fairly sure (a) is true, because of the Australian trade practices act and a nice court case that ruled it illegal for DVDs
# [02:21] <Lachy> no, I pay $20 a month for my usenet subscription and even more for my internet connection. It's just that my money isn't going to the movie studios until they start showing that they want to treat their customers fairly
# [02:21] <Lachy> I would buy more movies legally from iTunes instead, but they're really low quality compared to what I can get elsewhere
# [02:22] <Lachy> and there's limited selection
# [02:23] <GregHouston> The quality is generally good enough for me on Itunes, and so if I can rent it there I do, but most of their new releases are purchase only, which then sends me to usenet, and they lose out on my rental.
# [02:23] <gsnedders> annevk: First comment is moderated
# [02:23] <gsnedders> annevk: Approved
# [02:24] <Lachy> GregHouston, I refuse to rent from iTunes because it's not possible to strip the DRM from those, whereas its easy to do from purchases
# [02:24] <Philip`> Why is it unfair that they are offering their product (which you clearly want to consume) in various media (DVD, Blu-Ray, iTunes, etc) with various quality and limitations and price?
# [02:25] <Lachy> Philip`, the DRM is unacceptable, especially the region encoding if it's done in the firmware instead of just software.
# [02:25] <jcranmer> are people here using alt.binaries?
# [02:25] <jcranmer> :-)
# [02:25] <Lachy> jcranmer, yes
# [02:25] <GregHouston> Lachy: I can see that. It's not much of an issue for me, because I watch everything on the same computer, don't own a tv, and most movies I will never watch a second time.
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# [06:40] <BenMillard> I've sent an e-mail requesting peer review of a follow-up to my last headers+id reply. Off to sleep now. I'll check the logs and my inbox when I return, just in case. :)
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# [07:36] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Sep/0000.html is interesting
# [07:37] <Hixie> if you look at it more closely:
# [07:38] <Hixie> Sent Recvd Ratio Subjects Sent/Subj Author
# [07:38] <Hixie> 136 109 0.80 89 1.53 Ian Hickson
# [07:38] <Hixie> 66 57 0.86 30 2.20 Julian Reschke
# [07:38] <Hixie> 53 62 1.17 27 1.96 Henri Sivonen
# [07:38] <Hixie> 56 36 0.64 13 4.31 Boris Zbarsky
# [07:38] <Hixie> 39 36 0.92 14 2.79 Philip TAYLOR
# [07:38] <Hixie> 45 26 0.58 14 3.21 Leif Halvard Silli
# [07:38] <Hixie> (these numbers are sorted on the total sent+recvd, not just sent)
# [07:39] <Hixie> note the Subjects line :-)
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# [07:58] <Hixie> there, sent a reply with my version of the stats :-)
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# [08:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: interesting development in ratios since http://junkyard.damowmow.com/291
# [08:29] <Hixie> people ignoring me more, you mean? :-)
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# [08:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: no, the people whose ratio is > 1.0
# [08:34] <Hixie> heh
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# [09:29] <hsivonen> So YouTube conflates accessibility captions and translation subtitles under a "CC" menu
# [09:30] <Hixie> stats for all time http://junkyard.damowmow.com/342
# [09:31] <Hixie> if anyone has the complete whatwg archives in mbx format i can do the same for whatwg
# [09:32] <hsivonen> I thought lists.whatwg.org had the complete archives. what's missing?
# [09:32] <Hixie> the mbx format part
# [09:32] <Hixie> afaik
# [09:32] <hsivonen> ah
# [09:36] <hsivonen> hmm. RB has sent more email than I have...
# [09:37] <Hixie> oh hey
# [09:37] <Hixie> the text files in the whatwg archives ARE mbx format
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# [09:53] <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/343
# [09:53] <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/342 is public-html from the start
# [09:53] <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/343 is whatwg from the start
# [09:54] <Hixie> whatwg has had over 700 people contribute ideas, wow
# [09:54] <hsivonen> hmm. I've sent a lot of email :-(
# [09:54] <Lachy> Hey, I made the whatwg list twice :-)
# [09:55] <Hixie> hsivonen: for a while, you had the #1 spot in terms of outstanding e-mails on my list
# [09:55] <Hixie> i think you're #2 now
# [09:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: who's #1 now?
# [09:55] <Lachy> Hixie, if you combine my @lachy.id.au and @iinet.net.au emails into one, how do I score?
# [09:57] <Hixie> let's see
# [09:58] <hsivonen> hmm. Juan R's Sent/Subj...
# [09:59] <Hixie> a high sent/subj means one of three things as far as i can tell:
# [09:59] <Hixie> 1. you aren't explaining yourself well
# [10:00] <Hixie> 2. you're repeating yourself
# [10:00] <Hixie> 3. i'm responding to each e-mail individually instead of doing one mass e-mail
# [10:00] <Hixie> (#3 probably only applies to me :-P )
# [10:01] <Hixie> ok reload 343
# [10:03] <Hixie> so in about a third of the time, public-html received about the same amount of mail
# [10:03] <Hixie> that's insane
# [10:05] <Lachy> Hixie, both lists have been high volume recently. I haven't been able to keep up with them.
# [10:05] <Lachy> the whatwg list got to about 500 unread mails in my folder, mostly thanks to that RDF thread :-(
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# [10:05] <Hixie> yeah i tried to damp down the rdfa discussion when it got too verbose
# [10:06] <Lachy> I suppose I should try to read them one day, but I mostly ignored it since I don't like RDF
# [10:07] <Hixie> well the issue isn't really rdf
# [10:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: what's the issue in your view?
# [10:08] <Hixie> the issue is how do we address the needs of the communities that RDFa is addressing, and whether doing so is appropriate given our overall goals
# [10:08] <Hixie> i need to look at some of manu's and ben's e-mails more closely to determine the answer to both
# [10:08] <Hixie> but that will have to wait until after wf2
# [10:09] <Hixie> (underlying both of those points is "what are the needs of the communities that RDFa is addressing")
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# [10:13] <hsivonen> to the extent the needs include compatibility with the RDF data model, it's about RDF
# [10:16] * jgraham suspects the RDF data model is too hard for mass adoption
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# [10:25] <Hixie> hsivonen: i don't think that's actually been listed as a need
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# [10:28] <Lachy> AFAICS, everything beyond rel=license is totally unnecessary verbosity when it comes to expressing copyright info.
# [10:30] <Hixie> i'm not even convinced rel=license is needed
# [10:30] <Hixie> it's only needed if the copyright info is going to actually be used by computers
# [10:30] <Hixie> and i'm not convinced that it is
# [10:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: one of the reasons why I chose Flickr was that Flickr is the place people go to when they want to search for CC-licensed photos
# [10:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: they don't go to Google image search
# [10:36] <hsivonen> there is value in being able to search by license
# [10:36] <jgraham> hsivonen: Would it work well in an open system?
# [10:37] <jgraham> It doesn't work all that well on flickr
# [10:37] <hsivonen> jgraham: it would not work if people can make licensing claims cross-Origin about other people's works
# [10:37] <hsivonen> jgraham: but it could work it the licensing info is near the data object
# [10:37] <hsivonen> preferably inside it
# [10:38] <hsivonen> jgraham: what sucks on Flickr is that people don't know what they are doing when the flip the defaults
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# [10:39] <jgraham> hsivonen: Inside might work technically but I think user-invisible metadata outside the object would almost never be right
# [10:40] <hsivonen> jgraham: also, what sucks is that people take photos of people, CC doesn't deal with model release, and the photographer can't unilaterally concoct model release
# [10:40] <jgraham> hsivonen: People not knowing waht they are doing would be even worse without a consistent UI that explained everything, right?
# [10:40] <hsivonen> jgraham: could be
# [10:40] <hsivonen> I don't think Flickr's UI explains everything, though
# [10:40] <jgraham> hsivonen: AFAIK Model release laws vary wildly by country
# [10:42] <hsivonen> Flickr says "You can choose to use a Creative Commons license to allow more liberal use and sharing of your photos or video while still maintaining reasonable copyright protection."
# [10:42] <hsivonen> one could argue that "reasonable copyright protection" is not a good UI term
# [10:44] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yeah, the explaination is worse than I remembered
# [10:44] <Lachy> Does flickr default to a CC licence or ordinary copyright?
# [10:44] <hsivonen> Lachy: defaults to ARR
# [10:44] <Lachy> ok
# [10:44] <jgraham> Lachy: A CC default would be disaterous
# [10:45] <jgraham> Lachy: Lots of photog. types are seriously paranoid about any copying
# [10:45] <Lachy> jgraham, yeah. But that means that people are somehow being coerced into changing to a CC licence, without actually understanding the concequenses of their actions
# [10:46] <jgraham> e.g. http://duncandavidson.com/2008/04/the-copyright-conspiracy.html
# [10:46] <hsivonen> Lachy: CC and FSF have very different marketing
# [10:47] <jgraham> Lachy: In what sense coerced? They are given several options but none are presented as "better"
# [10:47] <annevk> Hixie, did you add fora@annevankesteren.nl to annevk@opera.com?
# [10:47] <annevk> (for the WHATWG list)
# [10:47] <hsivonen> annevk: looks like it
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# [10:50] <Hixie> hsivonen: google has cc search that is directly based on the cc metadata; what is your opinion of it?
# [10:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: too well hidden
# [10:50] <annevk> Hixie: 3095, Anne: 904, Henri: 590
# [10:50] <annevk> I should e-mail less :)
# [10:51] <annevk> whoa, Matthew and Jim Ley make it to the top five
# [10:51] <Hixie> annevk: the script automatically merges names that are the same
# [10:51] <Lachy> jgraham, coerced is probably the wrong word. I probably should have said tempted or something, because there are people with CC-licenced stuff on flickr who still complain when their stuff gets reused
# [10:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: also, not available in image search
# [10:51] <Hixie> annevk: note that the script does things based on time active, so unless jim posts again, he'll stay high
# [10:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: well there's no way with rel=license to label an image
# [10:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: so if that's your use case, rel=license won't help google
# [10:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: yeah. that's a problem.
# [10:52] <Lachy> that copyright conspiracy article is interesting. But in which countries does any form of copyright registration apply? Is that just a US thing, or more widespread?
# [10:52] * Hixie shrugs
# [10:52] <Hixie> if you say so
# [10:52] <Hixie> :-)
# [10:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: I want a way to have a license field in EXIF/JFIF/PNG
# [10:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: and then I want tool support for it
# [10:53] <Hixie> hsivonen: ah well that's not my problem, luckily
# [10:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: It annoys me the CC isn't standardizing embedded license metadata for EXIF/JFIF/PNG/Ogg/MP4
# [10:53] <hsivonen> and PDF in a simple way
# [10:54] <hsivonen> Lachy: it's a U.S. thing
# [10:55] <jgraham> You can register copyright in the UK
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# [10:56] <jgraham> Dunno how it compares to the US
# [10:56] <Lachy> ok, that's what I thought. But I find it annoying that whenever I read anything related to copyright, it's usually very much US-centric
# [10:56] <hsivonen> Lachy: you may safely omit "related to copyright"
# [10:56] <roc> the US system gets exported everywhere else eventually
# [10:57] <Lachy> so I basically have no idea what the copyright situation is in Australia, although I do know that we also have excessively long copyright terms
# [10:57] <roc> say hello to WIPO
# [10:57] <hsivonen> roc: It would be great if the U.S. system had been exported without the Victor Hugo input
# [10:57] <Lachy> I think it's life-of-author+70 years, which is absolutely absurd
# [10:57] <hsivonen> Lachy: that stuff came from Europe
# [10:57] <Lachy> who's Victor Hugo?
# [10:58] <hsivonen> the disaster is taking the worst parts of French and American copyright things and mixing them
# [10:58] <Lachy> I wish we could go back to 14 year copyright terms
# [10:59] <hsivonen> Lachy: a famous writer who was so annoyed at Americans pirating his books that he wrote what lead to the creation of the Berne Convention
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# [11:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think searching images by license is a more common use case than searching text by license, since images have different remixability characteristics
# [11:24] <Hixie> no disagreement there
# [11:25] <hsivonen> so in that sense, standardizing and implementing a license field for EXIF should be a higher priority than rel license
# [11:25] <Hixie> agreed
# [11:25] <Hixie> EXIF isn't my problem though
# [11:25] <Hixie> :-)
# [11:32] <Lachy> wow, Microsoft has just patented the page up/down keys http://news.zdnet.com/2424-9595_22-218626.html
# [11:33] <Hixie> i try and avoid reading about patents
# [11:33] <Hixie> companies become three times more liable to damages in the US if it can be demonstrated that they (or their employees) had knowledge of an infringed patent
# [11:34] <roc> that's actually changing
# [11:34] <Hixie> so it's better to be ignorant
# [11:34] <Hixie> roc: oh thank god
# [11:34] <Hixie> roc: for the better?
# [11:34] <roc> depends on your point of view, but yeah
# [11:34] <Hixie> good to hear
# [11:37] <Lachy> I only read about patents that get mentioned on places like /., and are so absurd that there's obviously plenty of prior art
# [11:38] <Hixie> like the Eolas patent?
# [11:38] <Lachy> yeah
# [11:38] <roc> oh, the Patent Reform Act 2007 is stalled :-(
# [11:38] <Hixie> lachy: being absurd and having plenty of prior art doesn't seem to matter
# [11:38] <Hixie> roc: :-(
# [11:39] <hsivonen> for some reason, people like the concept of Trial by Jury despite cases like Eolas
# [11:39] <Hixie> and people like spec design by consensus despite cases like XLink
# [11:40] <annevk> some people even like XLink
# [11:41] * hsivonen notes that the WHATWG is closer to arguing things to a professional judge and a panel of semi-pro lay judges than to Trial by Jury
# [11:41] <Hixie> yup
# [11:42] <Lachy> hsivonen, what about public-html?
# [11:42] <Philip`> Lachy: They're not patenting the keys at all - they're patenting a method of scrolling (which jumps in a one-page increment and preserves the vertical offset of your view of your page, regardless of zoom, etc), which might be triggered by those keys
# [11:42] <Hixie> (using the term professional to mean literally "paid", as opposed to "competent")
# [11:42] <hsivonen> Lachy: no comment
# [11:42] <Lachy> Philip`, yeah, I realised that. But I just summarised it poorly
# [11:43] <hsivonen> (using semi-pro to refer to the Finnish trial system--not the proness of the WHATWG panelists)
# [11:44] <Philip`> Lachy: ZDNet summarised it equally poorly/inflammatorily :-)
# [11:44] <Lachy> Philip`, in any case, that method of using pg up/dn has been used for decades
# [11:45] * Philip` can't easily remember any programs that scroll like that
# [11:49] <Lachy> Philip`, web browsers, word processors, text editors, etc.
# [11:49] <Lachy> they all scroll like that
# [11:49] <Lachy> Linux man pages even
# [11:49] <Philip`> Web browsers and text editor don't usually split the document into pages
# [11:50] <Philip`> Word processors scroll by roughly the viewport height (which depends on your zoom setting), not by a single page
# [11:51] <Lachy> in the case of web browsers, since a web page is a continuous medium, a "page" could be considered equivalent to the content of the viewport
# [11:51] <Lachy> no matter how high it is
# [11:51] <Philip`> If you're looking at just the top of a page, and press page-down, you jump to the bottom of page, whereas the patent is talking about jumping to the top of the next page
# [11:52] <virtuelv> Philip`: @media projection
# [11:52] <Lachy> Philip`, Print Preview
# [11:52] <Philip`> Lachy: Uh, you can't just consider things to be things that they aren't, and say it's prior art :-p
# [11:53] <Lachy> Philip`, the patent is too broad
# [11:53] * Philip` tries print preview in Opera and Firefox, and in both cases it scrolls by the zoom-dependent viewport height and not by a single page
# [11:53] <virtuelv> Philip`: and virtually any other slideshow tool
# [11:54] <virtuelv> Any PDF viewer whose zoom is set to "Fit to window" or similar
# [11:54] <virtuelv> man
# [11:54] <Hixie> Lachy: the patent is a software patent, it's a given that it's not a good idea. but lots of companies have software patents, microsoft is no exception.
# [11:54] <Hixie> virtuelv: apple's pdf viewer doesn't do what this patent says, i just checked
# [11:56] <virtuelv> Hixie: evince does, if set to "Best fit"
# [11:56] <virtuelv> Acrobat reader has a similar means
# [11:57] <Lachy> even Notepad scrolls like that (though, I'm aware its an MS program, it's been around for years, and to patent the process now is just absurd
# [11:57] <Philip`> virtuelv: That only works because the viewport height happens to be the height of a single page
# [11:57] <Philip`> Lachy: Notepad doesn't have pages
# [11:58] <Lachy> Philip`, define what a page is?
# [11:59] <Philip`> Lachy: A page is like a rectangular piece of paper, but on a computer
# [11:59] <Lachy> if you're only talking about the on-screen representation of an A4 page, then ok. But that's irrelevant, since the concept of keeping the cursor in place on screen and shifting it down by the viewport has been around forever
# [12:00] <Philip`> The point is not to shift it down by the viewport - the point is to shift it down by a page, regardless of the viewport
# [12:00] <Hixie> the whole point of this patent as i understand it is that it isn't about shifting by the viewport but shifting by the page height
# [12:00] <Hixie> and i think virtuelv is right that acrobat does that, i remember it driving me crazy
# [12:02] <virtuelv> either way, patents are just Evil
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# [12:02] <Hixie> patents as originally defined make some sense
# [12:03] <virtuelv> Hixie: yes, but the problem is that the patent system does not scale
# [12:03] <Hixie> if you come up with an idea for a physical product, it makes sense to give you some protection to allow you to sell it before some big multinational can use your idea and destroy your margins
# [12:03] <virtuelv> and the threshold for getting a patent is ridiculously low these days
# [12:03] <Hixie> but i agree that at least for software it makes no sense
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# [12:04] <virtuelv> like that guy getting a patent for a special case of multiply-linked lists
# [12:04] <Hixie> because the economics just aren't the same for software
# [12:04] <Hixie> patents on methods of construction or on algorithms, etc, also make no sense imho
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# [12:06] <virtuelv> a friend of mine with a PhD in control systems theory says most of the patents she encounters are also complete bullshit
# [12:06] <virtuelv> and obvious to anyone skilled in the trade
# [12:06] <Philip`> What about e.g. the MP3 algorithm? That presumably took substantial effort to develop, and seemed far in advance of any alternatives at that time, and the patent was specific enough that it didn't prevent development of similar competitors like Vorbis
# [12:06] <virtuelv> (mostly for industrial processes, AIUI)
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# [12:07] <virtuelv> Philip`: discovering the general theory of relativity also took substantial time and effort, and Einstein's theories were specific enough
# [12:07] <virtuelv> should he have been granted a patent on it?
# [12:08] <virtuelv> algorithms are discovered, not invented
# [12:08] <Hixie> algorithms are invented
# [12:08] <Hixie> and if the mp3 patent was awarded, then a patent on the algorithm for predicting time dilation should be too
# [12:09] <Hixie> and probably would be
# [12:10] <Hixie> Philip`: i could see an argument for that, if it was limited to a very small time frame (low single digit years), and was limited to people actually using the technology to make money
# [12:10] <Hixie> Philip`: it shouldn't prevent me from writing an implementations and sharing it with people online
# [12:10] <Lachy> Hixie, wouldn't that just be a mathematical equation, which can't be patented?
# [12:11] <Hixie> Lachy: all software is "a mathematical equation" in the same sense
# [12:12] <Philip`> virtuelv: There's only one theory of relativity, and even if it was phrased differently you'd get the same results, so that theory just needed to be discovered; but there are millions of ways you can encode audio, each slightly different, and the problem is choosing the right set of tradeoffs, so that's much more like invention than like discovery of a pre-existing thing
# [12:12] <Hixie> there's not just one theory of relativity
# [12:12] <Hixie> the whole point of how science works is that there are many theories on everything
# [12:12] <Hixie> we test them to see which one is closest to reality each time
# [12:12] <Hixie> and then keep improvign it
# [12:13] * Philip` tries to work out how to phrase it better
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# [12:14] <Hixie> coming up with an algorithm to predict how the universe will act is the same thing as writing an algorithm to compress music
# [12:14] <Hixie> it just does something different
# [12:15] <roc> no, I think there's a difference between science and engineering
# [12:16] <Philip`> I think I'm trying to say something like how Newton's theory of gravity and Einstein's theory of gravity are substantially different, and there aren't a million theories in between that they could have just as easily decided on but that might not have worked quite so well in practice
# [12:17] <Hixie> roc: what's the difference?
# [12:17] <Philip`> Einstein didn't do some experiments to decide whether E=mc^2 or E=mc^2.01 or E=0.01+mc^2 - there's just one way that makes sense
# [12:18] <Hixie> there's "just one that makes sense" in the same way that there is "just one" WebSocket spec definition that makes sense
# [12:18] <annevk> lol, instead of volunteering to do something, TAYLOR starts debating Hixie's list, typical
# [12:19] <Hixie> well my list had the desired effect
# [12:19] <Hixie> someone (i won't say who in case they don't actually want to do it!) contacted me and volunteered to work on something maybe :-)
# [12:19] <Philip`> The effect of demonstrating that people are more willing to complain about editors than to help as editors? :-)
# [12:20] <Hixie> no, getting someone to volunteer
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# [12:20] <Hixie> at least if they're complaining about the list they aren't complaining about the spec, though
# [12:21] <Hixie> happy mailman mailing list membership reminder day, btw
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# [12:22] <Hixie> haha pt(w)'s e-mail is funny
# [12:22] <Hixie> let's see... i've written four specs like html5... he has written none... but hell, maybe he does know better after all
# [12:25] <Lachy> I like how he challenged some of the requirements, without actually making a case against them
# [12:25] <Hixie> my favourite has to be the last one:
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# [12:25] <Hixie> "a pragmatic attitude that is willing to put the needs of the users, authors, and implementors (in that order) far ahead of technical purity"
# [12:25] <Hixie> ...which he challenges
# [12:25] <Lachy> ironically, he partially challenged the "the ability to defend a decision" one without actually defending his :-)
# [12:26] <Hixie> well it makes sense that he wouldn't defend a decision to not defend decisions :-P
# [12:26] <Hixie> that's not ironic that's just plain sensible :-P
# [12:26] <Philip`> You should have added "The editor must not drown kittens" and see if anyone objected
# [12:27] <Hixie> i didn't expect people to object!
# [12:27] <wilhelm> Well, someone fulfilling those requirements would probably produce yet another spec he'd be unhappy with. Your axioms do result in a very specific type of spec.
# [12:28] <Philip`> Maybe his view is the editor is just meant to edit, and decisions are made by WG consensus and not by the editor, and therefore the editor does not need to defend decisions
# [12:30] <roc> in engineering we're optimizing a very complex utility function and we make a lot of trade-offs
# [12:30] <roc> in science the utility function is much simpler, primarily "does this theory fit the data"
# [12:30] <roc> and you make very few tradeoffs
# [12:30] <Hixie> wilhelm: that's what i led with. "a spec of the quality of html5" or some such
# [12:31] <Hixie> Philip`: that doesn't get you a spec like html5. :-)
# [12:31] <Hixie> roc: i'll grant you that, but i'm not sure that changes the argument at the point of "is it patentable"
# [12:31] <Philip`> Hixie: Many people may consider that to be a good thing :-)
# [12:32] <Hixie> Philip`: probably :-)
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# [12:33] * Philip` guesses consensus works best on specs which not many people care about, which is either boring specs that they're not interested in or new specs that they haven't heard of
# [12:33] <Hixie> i don't know of any spec where consensus has worked well
# [12:33] <annevk> it's hard to find such a spec, I tried
# [12:34] <Hixie> i think the most i've found is specs where consensus didn't work worse than one poor editor would have
# [12:34] <Hixie> and those were all very small specs, where there simply weren't that many design decisions to screw up
# [12:34] <Philip`> Are there any specs were only one person was involved in development? That kind of spec would surely be the result of the unanimous consensus of all who were involved
# [12:34] <roc> I think the idea is that in science, you're so constrained by observations that there's little creativity and so little """invention"""
# [12:34] <Philip`> s/were/where/
# [12:35] <roc> but don't ask me to defend the theory of patents
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# [12:35] <Hixie> roc: i think that relativity is very creative. and quantum even more so.
# [12:35] <Hixie> roc: but yeah.
# [12:35] <Hixie> Philip`: specs are really just software written in prose, and the same applies to both, really
# [12:35] <Hixie> Philip`: you can't write good software in a committee
# [12:36] <roc> actually I think you're wrong there. The observations force you to adopt those theories, or theories equivalent to those theories
# [12:36] <Hixie> roc: the sheer number of competing GUTs right now suggests otherwise
# [12:37] <roc> they're all "relativity + QM + extensions"
# [12:37] <Hixie> roc: science works the other way around. You come up with many theories, then you make predictions using them, and only the ones that predict reality survive.
# [12:37] <Hixie> roc: but you still have to come up with theories, and that's creative.
# [12:37] <roc> and the fact that the extensions have so many degrees of freedom is in fact very disturbing to many/most scientists
# [12:37] <Hixie> roc: it's a bit like having a test suite, and then writing a bunch of programs, and then throwing the ones away that don't pass the test suite.
# [12:38] <Philip`> What do you do when you find there was a bug in the test suite?
# [12:38] <roc> ok, but in engineering you get to choose the test suite and the results you want from each tests
# [12:38] <roc> subject to rather vague and broad requirements
# [12:38] <roc> in science, you don't get to choose the results
# [12:39] <roc> and you're not supposed to be choosy about the tests either
# [12:39] <Hixie> roc: the problem is mostly that the predictions are things we can't yet test (e.g. LHC should help with that), but once we get to the stage where practical physics is testing the theoretical stuff again, they'll go away.
# [12:39] <Hixie> Philip`: science by definition has a bug-free test suite. :-P
# [12:39] <Hixie> roc: granted
# [12:40] <Hixie> roc: but i still don't think that difference is, or should be, relevant for the purposes of the patent system
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# [12:42] <Lachy> concensus definitely screws things up, especially when that concensus overrules the editor's decision
# [12:43] <Philip`> More than when the editor's decision overrules the consensus?
# [12:43] <Lachy> just look at the selectors api naming crap. People were happy with the names I chose. Then I got overruled, and people were disappointed
# [12:43] <Hixie> the naming thing just made different people sad
# [12:43] <Hixie> naming decisions are a pain and really should never be something that people have to vote on
# [12:44] <Philip`> If people were happy, how was there consensus to overrule that decision?
# [12:44] <Lachy> Philip`, there should be no concensus. In fact, in a really large group, concensus is almost impossible
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# [12:44] <Philip`> Lachy: Perhaps the solution is to avoid really large groups, not to avoid consensus
# [12:44] <Hixie> there wasn't concensus in the case of the selector naming at any point iirc, it was just a bunch of narrowly-won votes that kept swinging the results back and forth
# [12:45] <Lachy> Philip`, because it was decided by a vote, with each member ranking their preferences in order. The winner wasn't the most preferred by anyone, it just happened to have the highest average vote
# [12:45] <Hixie> (there definitely needs to be some oversight of the editor, though)
# [12:46] <Hixie> (i just think it needs to be oversight of the form "keep us happy enough or leave", not "keep us very happy or do what we say")
# [12:46] <Hixie> (because that both gives more motivation to the editor, and more responsibility, and thus more care, from the oversight)
# [12:47] <Lachy> I prefer "if you're not happy, you leave!" :-)
# [12:47] <Hixie> well an editor with no oversight has nothing to keep him in check, and that's dangerous
# [12:48] <Hixie> because it is supremely easy to go down a path where you think you're doing the right thing and you're ignoring people saying that you're not
# [12:48] * Philip` thinks someone should fork HTML 5, to promote some competitive spirit between the editors of each fork
# [12:48] <Hixie> even when they're right
# [12:48] <Lachy> that way, the editor is always happy and the only people left in teh group are those who agree
# [12:48] <Hixie> Philip`: i'm definitely up for that
# [12:48] <Hixie> Philip`: i totally agree that that would be a good thing (seriously)
# [12:48] <Hixie> Lachy: that's how xhtml2 came to be, btw
# [12:48] <Lachy> Hixie, I know :-)
# [12:49] <Hixie> so i think it's not a good thing :-)
# [12:50] <Lachy> Hixie, forking the spec wouldn't be good if the two diverged significantly and different implementations followed different specs
# [12:50] <Hixie> they wouldn't
# [12:51] <Hixie> at least, my copy of it would always follow what the UAs did
# [12:51] <Lachy> what wouldn't? The specs significantly diverging, or the implementers following different specs/
# [12:51] <Lachy> ?
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# [12:51] <Hixie> the implementers following different specs in a way that resulted in lack of interop
# [12:52] <Lachy> I suppose, since they generally try to follow each other
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# [12:53] <Lachy> so if the spec was forked, and both editors tried to equally follow what the implementers did, then by the end, we'd have 2 specs saying roughly the same thing in 2 different ways
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# [12:53] <roc> because of human error, the specs would say two subtly but very different things, and we'd be in hell
# [12:54] <Hixie> i don't think you'd see the browser vendors following different copies of the spec
# [12:55] <Hixie> i also don't think you'd find two people who'd edit the spec competently enough for the two to both be credible for long
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# [12:55] <Hixie> if they were both that competent, they'd likely get over their differences and merge
# [12:56] <Lachy> anyway, from you're list, the things I need to work on are "the ability to defend a decision and resist flip-flopping" and "the ability to write tools to perform studies of Web content"
# [12:56] <Hixie> you do need to resist flip flopping more. :-) but you're doing fine as editor
# [12:57] <Hixie> the thing you actually need to work on is getting more editing hours in your day :-)
# [12:57] <Hixie> s/need/would need/
# [12:57] <Lachy> I would need to find an employer that would let me work on specs 100%
# [12:58] <Hixie> or work in your free time
# [12:58] <Hixie> having tried both, i recommend the former
# [12:59] <Hixie> (getting an employer willing to let you work on specs 100%)
# [12:59] <Hixie> assuming you want to become a full time editor, that is
# [13:00] <Lachy> well, maybe not 100%, probably more like 80% to be reasonable, with 20% time on other random stuff
# [13:01] <Hixie> good luck with that
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# [13:01] <Lachy> as long as I have 0% time assigned to filling out time sheets
# [13:01] <Hixie> right now i'm at ~120% specs, ~10% internal stuff google wants me to work on
# [13:01] <Hixie> and 0% other random stuff
# [13:02] <Lachy> by random stuff, I meant including all the internal stuff the employer wants.
# [13:02] <Hixie> ah
# [13:03] <Hixie> html5.org is hammering svn.whatwg.org again
# [13:04] <annevk> hmm
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# [13:04] <annevk> I had this idea of making static copies once people request a particular diff and then making some lookup table for redirects to those static copies
# [13:05] <Hixie> that'd be neat
# [13:05] <annevk> I wasn't actually planning on ever writing it :/
# [13:05] <Hixie> i don't really understand why the usage is so spiky
# [13:05] <Hixie> is google crawling it or something?
# [13:06] <annevk> could be, yes
# [13:06] <annevk> well, we have '<meta name="robots" content="index, nofollow">'
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# [13:07] <annevk> there's not an easy way to disallow indexing URIs with ? characters, is there?
# [13:07] <annevk> (there's of course a lot of direct links from twitter)
# [13:07] <Hixie> robots.txt Disallow: / or something
# [13:08] <Hixie> i dunno
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# [13:08] <annevk> I guess I could prevent indexing /tools/ yes
# [13:08] <annevk> it doesn't really matter anyway to bots
# [13:08] <virtuelv> hm, the science vs. engineering discussion in the backlog is interesting
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# [13:09] <annevk> http://html5.org/robots.txt
# [13:27] <Hixie> nn
# [13:27] <Lachy> hmm, weird. I just got an auto-responder mail from the W3C mailing list system in response to my latest mail telling me how to subscribe to public-html, agree to the patent policy, etc.
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# [13:55] <Philip`> annevk: You could clone the svn.whatwg.org repository onto html5.org, and then you can just do local diffs and hammer your own server instead of someone else's
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# [13:58] <annevk> Philip`, neh
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# [14:06] <Philip`> There is clearly an unfulfilled desire for a way to mark up layout tables
# [14:07] <Philip`> About 0.2% of pages on dmoz.org have <table summary="some string containing the substring 'layout'">
# [14:07] <Philip`> Uh, 0.3%
# [14:08] <Philip`> Some people are willing to put a lot of effort into that markup - "Layout table: Main table. The first row contains a USDAFS link and a service wide drop-down navigation. The second row and third rows contains the forest name and search engine. Below this are two cells. The left cell contains the site navigation. The right cell contains the content of the page."
# [14:09] <annevk> -_-
# [14:10] <Philip`> (e.g. http://www.fs.fed.us/wcnf/unit/ogden/)
# [14:13] <Philip`> http://www.google.com/search?q=rfc2328 - "www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2328.txt ... by O Version" - good to see the author name heuristics working well
# [14:13] <Lachy> I wonder if authors that use summary="Layout table" (or similar) actually think of the summary as more like a comment, rather than anything users actually see
# [14:14] <Philip`> summary="Logo and Pictures layout. If this summary can be approved please email webmaster@shadowrobot.com"
# [14:14] <wilhelm> Interesting. How many use <table summary> with any content?
# [14:15] <Philip`> wilhelm: About 2.5% of the pages have <table summary>
# [14:16] <Philip`> wilhelm: About 2.1% have <table summary="not an empty string">
# [14:16] <Philip`> wilhelm: (and about 0.6% have <table summary="">)
# [14:17] <Philip`> wilhelm: (obviously with some overlap between those sets of pages)
# [14:17] <wilhelm> Right. Thanks. (c:
# [14:20] * Philip` proposes paving the cowpath by requiring authors to use summary="layout table" (case-insensitively) on layout tables, and suggesting that UAs use that to decide to render it as a layout table rather than a data table
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# [14:38] * Lachy realises that the element categories have changed significantly since I last wrote that section in the html5 authoring guide
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# [15:04] <Lachy> I think I need to make some sort of diagram that illustrates the relationship between the various element categories, especially: Embedded Content --> Phrasing Content --> Flow Content
# [15:07] <Philip`> Hixie: You have a broken link to #durationUpdate - should that be #durationChange?
# [15:08] <Philip`> Hixie: Also you have a broken link to #repetition
# [15:13] <Lachy> jgraham, annevk or someone else who knows python, where can I find the API reference for the simpletree that html5lib returns? Does it implement some of the DOM API or something entirely different?
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# [15:14] <Lachy> I need to write a script that processes the spec and extracts all the data about elements and outputs it to a nice table
# [15:14] <Philip`> Lachy: import html5lib; help(html5lib.treebuilders.simpletree)
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# [15:15] <hsivonen> when one writes Python code with html5lib and lxml, would the same app code work with a pure-Python ElementTree impl?
# [15:17] <Philip`> Is http://codespeak.net/lxml/compatibility.html relevant?
# [15:17] <annevk> Lachy, simpletree is probably best learned by viewing source :)
# [15:17] <annevk> s/viewing/view/
# [15:19] <Lachy> annevk, what are the advantages of using simpletree over minidom or something else?
# [15:20] <annevk> simpletree has some custom functions we wrote, such as hilite, but I don't think it's much more useful than the other tree implementations, and likely slowe
# [15:20] <annevk> r
# [15:21] <Lachy> ok, I'll use minidom, since that'll have an API I'm somewhat familiar with
# [15:21] <Philip`> lxml is what all the cool people use
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# [15:22] <Lachy> ok, I'll take a look at lxml
# [15:30] <Lachy> OMG, what is it that makes people think excessive CC'ing of irrelevant people and lists is a good thing to do? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Sep/0009.html
# [15:31] <Lachy> CC'ing the chairs isn't necessary, since they're already on the list, the wai-* lists are irrelevant to a discussion about editors, and bringing TimBL at this stage seems way over the top
# [15:33] <annevk> yeah, weird
# [15:36] <Lachy> it's also interesting that all the responses have been commenting on the requirements to be an editor, rather than anyone stepping up and saying they'd be willing
# [15:37] <hsivonen> http://code.google.com/p/jython-elementtree/source/browse/trunk/elementtree/ElementTree.py#898
# [15:37] <hsivonen> yet another place where the empty element list needs amending
# [15:37] <Philip`> Hmm, I can make the spec-splitter 15 times faster by using lxml's HTML input/output instead of html5lib - does anyone mind if I use that (and get slightly different output)?
# [15:38] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://google.com/codesearch?q=area+base+basefont+br+col - there's a load more
# [15:38] <annevk> I don't
# [15:40] * hsivonen wonders what Fredrik Lundh's business model is
# [15:44] <Lachy> how do I check what versions of libxml2 and libxslt I have on my system? I want to find out if I need to upgrade them for use with lxml
# [15:46] <Philip`> grep LIBXML_DOTTED_VERSION /usr/include/libxml2/libxml/xmlversion.h
# [15:46] <Philip`> perhaps
# [15:47] <Philip`> and grep LIBXSLT_DOTTED_VERSION /usr/include/libxslt/xsltconfig.h
# [15:48] <Lachy> it returned: define LIBXML_DOTTED_VERSION "2.6.16"
# [15:48] <Lachy> and: #define LIBXSLT_DOTTED_VERSION "1.1.12"
# [15:48] <Lachy> ok, I need to upgrade those
# [16:01] * Philip` finds it hard to remember what it was like to have to manually install and upgrde software, rather than typing a single command and having it all work automatically for pretty much any software package
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# [16:06] <hsivonen> Philip`: what do you do with software that doesn't have aptable packages?
# [16:07] <Lachy> well, I just downloaded and compiled the source for libxml2. Typing ./configure; make; sudo make install; wasn't too hard
# [16:07] <hsivonen> Lachy: now, try to remove it fully
# [16:07] <Lachy> though it seems to have installed it in a different directory from where the old version was
# [16:08] <Lachy> hsivonen, no idea how :-)
# [16:08] <Philip`> hsivonen: I care more about things without emergeable packages, but in practice those things pretty much never exist :-)
# [16:09] <hsivonen> can html5lib be emerged already? what about Java stuff?
# [16:09] <Lachy> I wish Apple provided an easy way to upgrade things like this on Mac
# [16:09] <hsivonen> Lachy: sudo port install foo
# [16:10] <Lachy> hsivonen, yeah, but that's not maintained by Apple, and how up to date are macports?
# [16:10] <hsivonen> dunno about up-to-datedness
# [16:12] <Philip`> hsivonen: Those things are much easier than C libraries, since I can just drop the directory/JAR in the right place
# [16:13] * Philip` was surprised recently to discover Gentoo had the necessary libraries to compile and run a 16-year-old SunOS program
# [16:14] <Lachy> $ port installed; tells me I have libxml2 @2.6.32_0 and libxslt @1.1.23_0 already
# [16:14] <Lachy> they're recent enough
# [16:16] <Lachy> oh, make uninstall; uninstalled everything I previously installed. That was easy
# [16:16] <Lachy> I'll just stick with the macport stuff
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# [16:47] <zcorpan> wonder if i should send comments on the xhtml media types note
# [16:49] <Philip`> I imagine your comments would be useful, so that sounds potentially worthwhile
# [16:50] <zcorpan> at least it'd be pretty fun
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# [16:51] <annevk> hah
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# [17:16] <annevk> whoa, whatwg.org is slow
# [17:17] <wilhelm> Indeed. I just got a 500 from whatwg.org too.
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# [17:44] * Philip` wonders if anyone really uses the Accept header, other than as a fragile politically-correct UA-sniffing method to send text/html to IE
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# [17:47] <hsivonen> Philip`: there could be one or two servers still running legacy code that negotiates PNG vs. GIF
# [17:47] <hsivonen> also, I wouldn't be too surprised to find someone negotiating Word vs. PDF
# [17:48] <wilhelm> It is used on some mobile sites to determine whether to send WML or HTML.
# [17:50] <wilhelm> Incorrectly, usually. They often just sniff for WML, and serve WML if supported. That has caused trouble for Opera more than once.
# [17:52] <zcorpan> hsivonen: negotiating png vs gif doesn't have to be legacy code if one still cares about ie6
# [17:54] <hsivonen> zcorpan: IE6 claims to Accept image/png, doesn't it?
# [17:55] <zcorpan> hsivonen: mine doesn't afaik
# [17:55] <hsivonen> ooh. interesting
# [17:56] <annevk> I think WebKit and IE do */* + whatever plugins add
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# [17:58] <Lachy> zcorpan, is there a new version of xhtml-media-types being written?
# [17:58] <zcorpan> Lachy: yeah
# [17:58] <Lachy> link?
# [17:58] <zcorpan> Lachy: it updates xhtml 1.0 appendix c too
# [17:58] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20080827/
# [17:58] <zcorpan> but now it's appendix a
# [18:00] <Lachy> LOL. They've got conformance requirements in the abstract :-)
# [18:00] <zcorpan> yeah the whole thing is a great laugh
# [18:01] <annevk> haha
# [18:01] <annevk> btw, Google Chrome: http://blogoscoped.com/archive/2008-09-01-n47.html
# [18:06] * zcorpan wonders why to not be honest and call it "porn mode"
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# [18:11] <Philip`_> krijnh: I think your clock is off by five minutes
# [18:11] * Philip`_ is now known as Philip`
# [18:11] <Lachy> hah, they also seem to indicate that UAs process XML documents depending on which XML MIME type was used instead of just the xmlns
# [18:14] <Lachy> "Some HTML user agents render XML processing instructions" - they don't specify which ones. AFAIK, even NN4 didn't render them
# [18:16] <Lachy> and they're still recommending the space in <br />
# [18:16] <annevk> if the Google thing is a Hoax they did quite a good job
# [18:18] <Philip`> It'd be nice if they gave specific examples of UAs where the compatibility advice is relevant; other there's a danger of falling into 'we do it this way because this is the way we've always done it'
# [18:19] <annevk> also, http://www.google.com/chrome has a different 404 from http://www.google.com/chroms
# [18:20] <annevk> Philip`, I don't think they care much for UAs
# [18:20] <gsnedders> University admissions is annoying.
# [18:21] <zcorpan> Lachy: in my xhtml mobile study, some rendered the xml decl iirc
# [18:21] <Lachy> ok
# [18:22] <zcorpan> annevk: catering to UAs is the whole point of the Note
# [18:22] <Lachy> guideline #11 and #13 are giving advice optimised for use as text/html, which is incompatible with xhtml
# [18:23] <Lachy> i.e. relying on the DOM returning uppercase tagNames and depending on implied elements like tbody in CSS
# [18:24] <annevk> zcorpan, that's orthogonal :)
# [18:25] <Philip`> "Wouldn't it be great, then, to start from scratch and design something based on the needs of today's web applications and today's users?" - maybe it would, but the list of features in that blog post sounds like pretty much exactly what every other browser already has or is working on
# [18:25] <hsivonen> so browsers have gotten so complex that it makes sense design a product around the assumption that browser engines have bugs including memory leaks
# [18:26] <Philip`> "We're applying the same kind of process isolation you find in modern operating system" - you mean like how Windows and Linux have all their drivers mushed into a single kernel address space, because microkernels which split every task into a separate process have failed?
# [18:30] <Lachy> I like the idea of Porn mode. I maintain a separate clean profile in my browser, which I clear after every use, for that :-)
# [18:31] <Philip`> annevk: It would be quite an elaborate hoax since they even got Google to register memoryhog.net two weeks ago to put in an example :-)
# [18:31] <Philip`> Lachy: To be extra careful you could use an entirely separate browser, like Lynx
# [18:32] <annevk> Philip`, how's that related? (and how did you figure it out)
# [18:33] <annevk> (well, I can see how it's sort of related)
# [18:33] <Philip`> "If there's a crazy memory leak it won't affect you for that long because you'll probably close the tab at some point and get that memory back." - i.e. "if your browser seems to be going really slowly, you'll have to randomly close a load of pages until you find it's sped up again"
# [18:33] <Philip`> annevk: http://blogoscoped.com/google-chrome/6 in the bottom-right refers to memoryhog.net
# [18:34] <Lachy> Philip`, of course, I use Lynx for ordinary browsing. I meant I use a separate Lynx profile
# [18:35] <Philip`> The process isolation thing doesn't really help at all when you've got some big complex application like Gmail in a single tab and keep it open for a week, which I would guess is where memory leaks are most likely to occur
# [18:35] <Lachy> I wonder what appropriate alternate text would be for that. Since it's an image inside a link, the HTML5 spec says to use text that describes the destination of the link. But the image is also one page of a comic strip.
# [18:36] <Lachy> but it's making each one a link to the next in sequence
# [18:36] <hsivonen> if the entire process gets trashed often, I wonder if one could just make a malloc that bumps a pointer and a no-op free()
# [18:36] <annevk> Philip`, interesting
# [18:37] <annevk> various googlechrome domains were registered "by proxy" on August 3
# [18:37] <hsivonen> does page 8 imply something about Flash?
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# [18:41] <Philip`> If its engine is based on WebKit, how come "When we started we were passing 23% of WebKit's layout tests" (p11)?
# [18:44] <annevk> because the "Denmark V8 Team" made their own JavaScript engine?
# [18:46] <Philip`> Maybe they forked WebKit and started hacking on it with no real idea what they doing and broke everything and then someone said "hey guys, we broke three quarters of all these tests, we probably shouldn't have done that" and so they crawled back up to 99%
# [18:47] <Philip`> (There are probably more charitable explanations :-) )
# [18:47] <virtuelv> where is that 23% quote from?
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# [18:48] <Philip`> Compiling JS to machine code would be kind of novel if Firefox hadn't done that weeks ago
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# [18:49] <Philip`> virtuelv: http://blogoscoped.com/google-chrome/11
# [18:50] <virtuelv> blogoscoped is so totally hammered now
# [18:50] <Philip`> Wow, an address bar that searches more than just the URL, like page titles and stuff! I bet no other browser has thought of that and implemented it and shipped it or at least included it in the latest public beta
# [18:51] <virtuelv> shipped, actually
# [18:51] <Philip`> IE only has it in the beta
# [18:51] <gsnedders> OpenDNS's shortcuts work fine :P
# [18:51] <annevk> http://thetruthaboutmozilla.wordpress.com/2008/02/25/the-google-browser/ has some interesting analysis
# [18:53] <Philip`> virtuelv: There's an easy solution to that hammering: just open all 38 pages in background tabs, and come back in a while when they've all loaded
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# [19:00] <virtuelv> Philip`: yeah, or I can wait until someone has done that for me, and can just provide me with zips of the images
# [19:00] <virtuelv> or I can wait till the server cools off a bit
# [19:01] <Philip`> Ooh, I might have found something that isn't already in other browsers: a newly opened tab automatically shows pages you've visited most often, unlike Opera which is pretty much the same but requires you to click a bit to set the pages to be displayed, and unlike IE8 which shows recently closed tabs and some other stuff
# [19:02] * Philip` wishes Scott McCloud was better at drawing checked shirts
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# [19:07] <Philip`> Hmm, I can't find anything else that's novel
# [19:07] <Philip`> Did I just miss all the exciting parts?
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# [19:09] <annevk> putting tab buttons on top?
# [19:09] <annevk> I can see why Google has been so active on ES4 now
# [19:09] <virtuelv> annevk: I fail to see the novelty of that
# [19:09] <virtuelv> <nudge>
# [19:09] <Philip`> Opera already has the tab buttons on top of the address bar
# [19:10] <Philip`> and IE already does something crazy with the position of the menu bar
# [19:10] <annevk> I thought they would put them on top of everything
# [19:10] <virtuelv> Philip`: you're refering to the fact that application menus are below the address bar in IE?
# [19:11] <Philip`> virtuelv: I think so, though I don't remember exactly what it does
# [19:11] <annevk> ok
# [19:11] <hsivonen> so when are we going to see benchmarks of V8 vs. TraceMonkey?
# [19:12] <hsivonen> for reference, it would be cool to see Rhino generating Java bytecode and HotSpot JITting that as part of a pure-JS benchmark
# [19:13] <Philip`> annevk: I'd bet they're not going to manage to put the tab buttons sticking out the top edge of the window in a way that doesn't totally break my KDE theme, but maybe they're not concerned about that :-)
# [19:13] <Dashiva> Maybe the tabs will stick out above your screen
# [19:13] <Dashiva> So you can physically select them!
# [19:13] <Philip`> It'd be fun learning how to move and resize a window that has tab buttons sticking out of it
# [19:14] <Philip`> I suppose the V8 "hidden class" thing might be interesting, particularly in comparison to TraceMonkey's tracing optimisations that are trying to solve a similar problem
# [19:15] <Dashiva> Aha!
# [19:15] <Philip`> (i.e. the variables-usually-stay-the-same-type-but-not-always-so-you-have-to-be-very-careful-before-optimising problem)
# [19:15] <Dashiva> This time I wasn't tricked by the month change in the public-html archives
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# [19:16] <Philip`> Dashiva: Because you bookmarked the /latest URL instead?
# [19:16] <Philip`> (Oh, actually, that's probably not really what the hidden class thing is about at all)
# [19:17] <hsivonen> now blogoscoped died totally
# [19:17] <annevk> I guess nobody made a backup?
# [19:17] <annevk> oh well, doesn't matter
# [19:17] <annevk> time for food anyways
# [19:18] <Philip`> Try http://blogoscoped.com.nyud.net/google-chrome/ ?
# [19:18] <Philip`> (That appears to work fine for me)
# [19:19] <Dashiva> Philip`: No, because I realized what date it was :)
# [19:19] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
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# [19:21] <annevk> lots of UI stuff copied from Opera, indeed
# [19:21] * hsivonen wonders if Google has tried to buy Opera at any point
# [19:22] <Philip`> annevk: Lots copied from IE too, like separate processes per tab, and lists of popular related sites
# [19:23] <Philip`> and the rest is copied from Firefox and Safari
# [19:25] <Philip`> (Well, not necessarily copied, since they've all been working on these things in parallel over the past couple of years)
# [19:28] <Philip`> Also there's the question of how it can be a profitable product, because it's not like they can get a hundred-million-dollar search-box contract with themselves and make money off the deal
# [19:28] <zcorpan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Sep/0000.html
# [19:30] <zcorpan> Philip`: maybe if people wouldn't use other browsers they wouldn't have to pay the vendors for their search boxes
# [19:30] <annevk> "This abstract sucks." so much for zcorpan being the good cop
# [19:30] <annevk> :p
# [19:31] <Philip`> zcorpan: That sounds a slightly convoluted way of considering their browser to be profitable, but I suppose it makes sense :-)
# [19:31] <hsivonen> annevk: the XHTML2 WG exposes even zcorpan's good cop bounds :-)
# [19:31] <zcorpan> annevk: i'm the good cop?
# [19:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan: annevk is the bad cop. :-)
# [19:33] <zcorpan> ok, sorry, i should have let you drop that line in a reply
# [19:34] <zcorpan> gotta go now
# [19:34] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
# [19:38] <takkaria> mm, I remember when NS4 was still something people worried about
# [19:42] <Philip`> takkaria: That was a long time ago
# [19:43] <Philip`> Did you have running water back then?
# [19:43] <takkaria> I do believe so
# [19:43] <gsnedders> zcorpan (if you read this): "Comments on this document may be sent to www-html-editor@w3.org (archive). Public discussion on this document may take place on the mailing list www-html@w3.org (archive)."
# [19:43] <gsnedders> :P
# [19:44] <Philip`> Presumably that's an RFC 2119 "MAY"
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# [19:52] <hsivonen> zcorpan's comments are spot-on.
# [19:52] <hsivonen> I wish the document doesn't get published in that state
# [19:53] <Philip`> It'd be pretty surprising if it did get published in that state, what with all the "@@@@add example@@@@"
# [19:54] <annevk> if it gets published, we can just make a blog post
# [19:54] <Dashiva> Philip`: It's for extensibility
# [19:54] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [19:55] <Philip`> Blog posts don't look nearly as official as W3C Notes
# [19:55] <hsivonen> Philip`: some blog posts get more implementor support, though
# [19:56] <hsivonen> like feed autodiscovery
# [19:56] <gsnedders> hsivonen: No, feed autodiscovery is done in a way different to any blog post or draft spec
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# [19:57] <hsivonen> gsnedders: do you mean the HTML5 spec is wrong there?
# [19:57] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Next to nothing supports @rel=feed
# [19:58] <Philip`> hsivonen: This is more about authors than implementors
# [19:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: indeed
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# [19:58] <Philip`> and I would guess authors are more likely than implementors to consider the W3C authoritative
# [19:59] <Philip`> (even if they then choose to ignore that authority)
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# [20:07] <krijnh> Philip`: I think so too :)
# [20:08] <Philip`> One advantage of using irssi+screen+ssh is that I have two independent clocks on my screen, so I can tell if one of them has gone wrong
# [20:10] <hsivonen> Philip`: shouldn't one have three clocks to tell which one is wrong?
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# [20:13] <Philip`> hsivonen: No - I just need the two clocks so I detect the existence of a problem, and then I'll check that ntp is still running on both machines and restart it when necessary :-)
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# [20:25] <Philip`> hsivonen: When I use the text field entry in validator.nu, then click "validate", the resulting page has "address" selected instead of "text field", so if I click "validate" again then it fails because it was given an empty address instead of resubmitting the text
# [20:27] <hsivonen> Philip`: yeah. that sucks pretty badly
# [20:27] <hsivonen> Philip`: I wanted to find a purely client-side solution
# [20:27] <hsivonen> but I haven't been able to find one.
# [20:28] <hsivonen> so I guess I'll just bite the bullet and do something on the server side
# [20:29] <Philip`> Okay - if it's a known problem, then that's fine, and I don't have a burning desire for it to be fixed as soon as possible
# [20:33] <hsivonen> it annoys me, too, and I believe it annoys other people as well
# [20:36] <zcorpan> hsivonen: a way to improve it and still keep it purely client-side would be to show the textarea if source is shown
# [20:36] <zcorpan> hsivonen: that's actually pretty much what validator.w3.org does
# [20:36] <hsivonen> zcorpan: wouldn't that be bad if the user enables showing source for regular GET urls?
# [20:37] <zcorpan> hsivonen: why would it be bad?
# [20:37] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the UI wouldn't feel stable. it would be the reverse of the current usability bug
# [20:38] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I don't see that behavior on validator.w3.org
# [20:38] <zcorpan> hsivonen: perhaps it was the experimental version
# [20:38] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you could still revalidate and having the textarea is nice for tweaking and testing
# [20:40] <zcorpan> hsivonen: hmm i probably remembered wrong about v.w.o
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# [20:45] <gsnedders> Time to update my about page with something a bit saner.
# [20:45] <hsivonen> hmm. my abstraction layers are so unleaky, that the code that has the opportunity to write stuff in the response doesn't even know the input came from textarea
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# [20:52] <hsivonen> hmm. I guess I should use setAttribute on ServletRequest to forward this datum
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# [21:16] <hsivonen> hmm. if IE8 supports hashchange, it might become the first feature of V.nu that is IE-enhanced
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# [21:24] <gsnedders> Anyone with access to the OED around and able to look anything up for me?
# [21:25] * Philip` has access to the online one
# [21:25] * tndH raises hand too
# [21:25] <gsnedders> Does it make any preference between the capitalization of mummy v. Mummy?
# [21:26] <Philip`> For any particular meaning of the word?
# [21:26] <gsnedders> One's mother
# [21:27] <Philip`> It uses lowercase everywhere, as far as I can see
# [21:28] <Philip`> For "mum" it says "Forms: freq. with capital initial.", but it doesn't say that for "mummy"
# [21:28] <gsnedders> k.
# [21:29] <gsnedders> "This led to the interesting statement that I made while a toddler, <q>I have three parents — a mummy, a daddy, and a Fiona.</q>."
# [21:30] * Philip` would use a capital letter when using the word as a name ("I like Mummy") and not when using it as a noun ("I like my mummy")
# [21:31] <gsnedders> I on the whole would always use lowercase
# [21:31] <gsnedders> Actually, the OED may state that proper nouns should start with a capital somewhere else
# [21:31] * takkaria is happy he's in hir new flat, there's a church over the road and they practice bellringing on monday evenings :)
# [21:32] <gsnedders> takkaria: You'll get annoyed with it eventually :)
# [21:32] <takkaria> the eventual solution will just be to play loud music over it, I think
# [21:32] <gsnedders> Yeah, that's what I do with bagpipes around here
# [21:34] <takkaria> I'm somewhat tempted to wander over and ask how I can get involved
# [21:34] <takkaria> I hear that church bellringers quite often don't care about your religion
# [21:34] <gsnedders> takkaria: It's hard :P
# [21:34] * Philip` used to share an office with someone who rang bells
# [21:34] <takkaria> gsnedders: as in physically strenuous?
# [21:35] <Philip`> and my supervisor does bellringing too
# [21:35] <gsnedders> Philip`: In your office?
# [21:35] <gsnedders> takkaria: No, in terms of timing
# [21:35] <Philip`> (I'm fairly sure they're both non-religious)
# [21:35] <gsnedders> takkaria: Because of the delay between pulling the string and the bell ringing
# [21:35] <Philip`> gsnedders: No - sadly I've never worked in an office that contains church bells
# [21:35] <takkaria> mm
# [21:37] <gsnedders> http://digg.com/business_finance/With_Gustov_Strengthing_You_Need_to_Fill_up_NOW?t=18346414#c18346414
# [21:37] <gsnedders> How is that not -40?
# [21:37] <Philip`> gsnedders: Can't you just ignore the ringing and concentrate on matching your timing with the movements of everyone else?
# [21:37] <gsnedders> Philip`: That's the easiest way to do it, I expect
# [21:37] <gsnedders> Philip`: But still fairly hard
# [21:38] <Philip`> It'd be pretty easy to automate
# [21:39] <Philip`> You just need a heavy box and a motor and a pulley, and you could make a perfect bellringing machine
# [21:39] <gsnedders> Philip`: I have this slight thought that it has been done before
# [21:39] <Philip`> It's not like it's a form of music that requires artistic creativity - you just pull the rope at the point where the little book of patterns says you should
# [21:39] <takkaria> Philip`: that also destroys a lot of the fun, so I hear :)
# [21:41] <gsnedders> Philip`: You can play any music as the little book of patterns says you should
# [21:42] <hsivonen> how does the HTML4+RDFa thing work in terms of W3C WG charters?
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# [21:45] <Philip`> gsnedders: Normally the written form of the music misses out lots of subtle details of timing and volume and whatever else music has, so you can't just unthinkingly play the notes it says
# [21:45] <Philip`> whereas I can't imagine there being much subtlety in bellringing, because all you can do is yank the rope
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# [21:57] <hdh> the Google Chrome paper comic is cc-by-nc-nd, very thoughtful
# [21:57] <hsivonen> textarea annoyingness fixed with HTML
# [21:57] <hsivonen> it can still be pretty annoying with XML
# [22:01] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L8533.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
# [22:02] <gsnedders> Describe me in three words.
# [22:02] <Philip`> gsnedders: When something can get 555 Diggs despite not even being able to spell "Gustav" right, I wouldn't trust the ratings much :-p
# [22:05] <gsnedders> Philip`: P
# [22:05] <gsnedders> * :P
# [22:06] <Dashiva> It might be a pun, 'gust of (wind)'
# [22:08] * Philip` wonders how long it'll be until Hixie is accused of being in some Chrome-related conspiracy
# [22:08] <gsnedders> Hixie: You made that edit yesterday just to please the Chrome developers! You don't care about the future of the web!
# [22:09] <Dashiva> I bet people have been accusing him off-list already
# [22:09] <Dashiva> But will we get people saying "Chrome is anti-accessibility"?
# [22:10] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Well, duh, Hixie works at the same company, so obviously it is!
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# [22:29] <hsivonen> Philip`: re: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=294 do I need to differentiate URL attributes
# [22:29] <hsivonen> or just say "unescaped ampersand"?
# [22:32] <zcorpan> hsivonen: unescaped ampersand or typoed entity
# [22:32] <zcorpan> hsivonen: bonus points if you can figure out which entity, if any, the author intended ;)
# [22:33] <zcorpan> e.g. &nbspM is clearly intended to be  
# [22:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan: maybe later for the quessing :-)
# [22:34] <zcorpan> http://www.google.com/search?q=%26nbspm
# [22:35] <Philip`> hsivonen: It'd seem nicer if you could differentiate between the very common <a href="foo?bar&baz"> and the less common <img alt="Fish&Chips"> or <span>Fish&Chips</span>, since the advice given to authors would be different in those cases
# [22:36] <zcorpan> Philip`: isn't it "escape & as &" in both of those?
# [22:36] <Philip`> and also it'd be nicer if those could be differentiated from &bogus;, since you shouldn't tell people to escape & as & in that case
# [22:36] <hsivonen> http://code.google.com/p/chrome/ is Forbidden
# [22:36] <hsivonen> http://code.google.com/p/google-chrome/ is Not Found
# [22:37] <Philip`> zcorpan: Hmm, true; but maybe the explanation of the advice would be different
# [22:37] <zcorpan> Philip`: why?
# [22:40] <Philip`> zcorpan: Because specific advice ("When you are writing a URL which contains a &, you have to write it as &", "When you want a '&' character to appear on the page, you have to write it as &") seems friendly and easier to understand than generic advice
# [22:42] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
# [22:44] * jgraham belatedly notes that he also works with someone who is into bellringing
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# [23:01] <BenMillard> Lachy & jgraham, thanks for your review of the tables. I've replied with updates.
# [23:06] <Lachy> BenMillard, looks good
# [23:08] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Did you book the hotel, BTW?
# [23:11] <BenMillard> gsnedders, not yet, sorry. Been swamped with tables stuff, my collection midpoint and a usability audit which has just come my way.
# [23:11] <BenMillard> I send an e-mail asking about availability, though
# [23:11] <BenMillard> *sent
# [23:11] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Do you mind if I just give you the amount in cash there?
# [23:12] <BenMillard> gsnedders, that's fine by me
# [23:12] <BenMillard> Lachy, I've just swapped 3 & 4 with 5 & 6 so they have a slightly more logical progression.
# [23:14] <hsivonen> BenMillard: I'll review in the morning
# [23:15] <BenMillard> hsivonen, thanks. :)
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# [23:22] <Lachy> BenMillard, you also have to change the links in the article
# [23:23] * Parts: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-c171ee82b52e7361)
# [23:23] <BenMillard> Lachy, I had but SmartFTP has decided against uploading it for the past several minutes...
# [23:24] <BenMillard> Lachy, should be correct now.
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# [23:24] <Lachy> yep, that's better
# [23:24] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.244.17.18)
# [23:25] <hsivonen> BenMillard: actually, reviewing now
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# [23:33] <BenMillard> hsivonen, I'm making some editorial tweaks to the entry so it reads a bit better. Also, I need to do a recount of cells, bytes and so forth.
# [23:33] <BenMillard> the redesigned tables should be stable, unless you find errors :)
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# [23:38] <zcorpan> hsivonen: nice! one thing though, the select says "address" but the textarea is shown
# [23:38] <zcorpan> hsivonen: solved by modeSelect.value = urlInput.className
# [23:39] <BenMillard> zcorpan, interested in reviewing my attempts to simplify a headers+id example? (It's what lachy and hsivonen have been reviewing.)
# [23:40] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks. I'll fix in the morning
# [23:41] <zcorpan> BenMillard: sure. pointer?
# [23:41] <hsivonen> BenMillard: good stuff. thanks for examining this
# [23:41] <hsivonen> (email sent)
# [23:41] <hsivonen> nn
# [23:42] <zcorpan> nn hsivonen
# [23:43] <BenMillard> zcorpan, I'm keeping it off-the-radar until I'm sure it's of good quality. Am forwarding the e-mail to you now (which includes the links).
# [23:43] <zcorpan> BenMillard: k
# [23:44] <zcorpan> BenMillard: you could have just sent it to cabal@whatwg.org :P
# [23:45] * jgraham likes that BenMillard considers public IRC to be "off the radar"
# [23:45] <zcorpan> oh wait this channel is logged?
# [23:45] <zcorpan> crap
# [23:45] <Philip`> [off] the radar?
# [23:46] <BenMillard> jgraham, keeping the links private to avoid premature public review is all I want. :)
# [23:46] <BenMillard> zcorpan, d'oh, I'll remember that text time! Forwarded.
# [23:46] <jgraham> BenMillard: Only teasing :)
# [23:48] <BenMillard> hsivonen makes an interesting observation: "Does it make any sense to group by "budgeted" major and date minor to put all three "budgeted" columns side-by-side, etc.?"
# [23:48] <BenMillard> so the dates would be repeated instead of the aspects
# [23:49] <zcorpan> BenMillard: ah my hotmail address. never check that these days
# [23:49] <BenMillard> zcorpan, that's the only one I have for you...
# [23:50] <zcorpan> BenMillard: no need to resend but simonp@opera.com or zcorpan@gmail.com has a higher chance of me seeing the email :)
# [23:50] <BenMillard> zcorpan, oh actually I'm lying! I do have an @opera for you, sorry.
# [23:50] <Lachy> zcorpan, does cabal@whatwg.org actually work?
# [23:50] <zcorpan> Lachy: dunno
# [23:50] <Lachy> maybe we should set it up :-)
# [23:50] <jgraham> Lachy: I guess Hixie might get it
# [23:50] <zcorpan> send an email there and see what happens
# [23:52] <jgraham> BenMillard: I think the answer is "without knowing the purpose of the table it's hard to say"
# [23:52] <Philip`> It's not much of a cabal if Hixie is the only person in it
# [23:52] <jgraham> Philip`: Best kind of cabal
# [23:52] <jgraham> Most exclusive
# [23:52] <zcorpan> it's Hixie and his cats
# [23:53] <jgraham> Maybe he could train the cats to edit the spec
# [23:53] <Lachy> Yep, Hixie, Pillar and Hedral are the founding members
# [23:53] * Lachy hopes he remembed the cat's names correctly
# [23:53] * gsnedders just claims not to have a clue, and gets away with it
# [23:53] <gsnedders> Thankfully, they haven't come after me yet
# [23:54] <BenMillard> jgraham, yeah. It seems to me that the table is about comparing the Budget against what was Actual and what was Forecast; rather than comparing how each aspect changed over time.
# [23:54] <BenMillard> jgraham, having said that, the Budgeted and Forecase values never change within each investment...so maybe it's really about seeing how the Actual changed each week?
# [23:54] <BenMillard> *Forecast
# [23:54] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Remote closed the connection)
# [23:55] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
# [23:55] <jgraham> BenMillard: I strongly suspect this is fake data
# [23:55] <BenMillard> jgraham, that's also a possibility, in which case I'll redesign when we are shown the actual source table. :)
# [23:55] <annevk> fyi: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2008/09/fresh-take-on-browser.html
# [23:55] <Lachy> it's not very good fake data. It makes analysing it and working out what's really important quite difficult
# [23:55] <annevk> (no need to URL guess anymore)
# [23:56] <Philip`> Lachy: They seem correct, judging from http://www.flickr.com/photos/carinda/2672675271/in/set-72157606196286925/
# [23:56] <zcorpan> interesting, hotmail stripped out <http://...> when forwarding
# [23:57] <Philip`> (unless those are totally unrelated cats and it's just a freaky coincidence)
# [23:57] <BenMillard> zcorpan, do I need to resend? maybe it thought they were HTML tags :)
# [23:57] <Lachy> Philip`, there's no caption on those cats!
# [23:57] <annevk> I wonder what license it will be under
# [23:58] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Remote closed the connection)
# [23:58] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
# [23:58] <Lachy> grr. X-Chat keeps crashing when I accidentally right click :-(
# [23:59] <Philip`> Lachy: That's why computers should only have one mouse button
# [23:59] <jgraham> annevk: It pretty much has to be LGPL I think
# Session Close: Tue Sep 02 00:00:00 2008

The end :)