/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-09-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 04 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:13] <Hixie> gsnedders: pong
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  8. # [00:14] <Hixie> shepazu: cool. there's no rush, btw, i'm gonna be swapmed with wf2 stuff for a while.
  9. # [00:14] <shepazu> Hixie: ok, cool.. still, we will try to be as prompt as possible
  10. # [00:15] <Hixie> cool
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  14. # [00:16] * jcranmer wants <input type=""> widely supported NOW
  15. # [00:17] <jcranmer> especially date, datetime, and time...
  16. # [00:17] <Hixie> i want <datagrid>
  17. # [00:17] <Hixie> and websocket
  18. # [00:18] <jcranmer> <input type="gurh, unknown value"> should fall back to a single-line textbox?
  19. # [00:18] <Hixie> yes
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  21. # [00:19] <Philip`> But you shouldn't rely on that, since WF3 might define the "gurh, unknown value" input type
  22. # [00:19] <BenMillard> jgraham, I just tried using http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.html on http://www.wisc.edu/about/facts/budget.php and got a huge error at http://james.html5.org/cgi-bin/tables/table_inspector.py?input_type=type_uri&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wisc.edu%2Fabout%2Ffacts%2Fbudget.php&source=&algorithm=smartheaders
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  24. # [00:20] <BenMillard> jgraham, the page does have a few parse errors: http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wisc.edu%2Fabout%2Ffacts%2Fbudget.php
  25. # [00:20] <jcranmer> Philip`: it'd be about fallback for <input type="date"> in my case
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  32. # [00:34] <jgraham> BenMillard: known bug. Turns out that people using "XHTML" trip up people like me who try to repurpose XML libraries for HTML because the XML libraries have special restrictions needed to stop people unwittingly getting namespaces in XML wrong
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  34. # [00:35] <jgraham> It turns out to be harder than I would like to fix because lxml (the library in question) gives a choice of unsutiable behaviours
  35. # [00:35] <jgraham> If you have enough time you can work out how to aportion blame between me, the lxml authors, the page authors and the W3C for the problem :)
  36. # [00:36] <BenMillard> jgraham, I'll leave that in your more capable hands. ;)
  37. # [00:37] <Hixie> jgraham: html5 gives some ideas on how to deal with these issues
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  39. # [00:37] <BenMillard> jgraham, can you remember the thread were people demanded you make the Table Inspector accessible, with headers+id? I remember it but can't find it...
  40. # [00:38] <jgraham> Hixie: What does HTML5 have to say about dealing with libs that won't allow : in element names?
  41. # [00:39] <jgraham> BenMillard: I remmber it existed and that I did what they asked. I think it was Leif asking
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  43. # [00:39] <Hixie> jgraham: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#coercing
  44. # [00:40] <BenMillard> jgraham, closest I've reached is: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0082.html
  45. # [00:41] <jgraham> BenMillard: If you copy the first table from that page into the table inspector source view it works nicely
  46. # [00:41] <jgraham> s/source view/textarea/
  47. # [00:41] <jgraham> Hixie: Oh nice. Is that new or have I just been oblivious for a long time?
  48. # [00:42] <Hixie> jgraham: relatively new
  49. # [00:42] <Hixie> jgraham: hsivonen asked for it
  50. # [00:42] <Hixie> iirc
  51. # [00:42] <jgraham> Hixie: That's clearly because hsivonen rocks :)
  52. # [00:42] <Hixie> that's the rumour
  53. # [00:44] <Philip`> When I view the spec, I get "Fatal network error: Error: Internal Server Error (500)"
  54. # [00:44] <Philip`> in an alert box
  55. # [00:45] <Hixie> that's unfortunate
  56. # [00:45] <Hixie> wfm
  57. # [00:46] <Hixie> oh
  58. # [00:46] <Hixie> it ran out of memory trying to log you in
  59. # [00:47] * Hixie gives the server a little more ram
  60. # [00:48] <BenMillard> jgraham, I've found Leif's message using Outlook's search within seconds. Note to self: try that first next time.
  61. # [00:48] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
  62. # [00:48] <jgraham> It somehow never occurs to me to search local email. I guess because that doesn't give me a URL
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  64. # [00:49] <Hixie> Philip`: should work now
  65. # [00:49] <BenMillard> jgraham, it does give you enough information to then have a happier time with the web search interface, though.
  66. # [00:49] <jgraham> BenMillard: Indeed
  67. # [00:50] <BenMillard> jgraham, Leif's message is here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Sep/0153.html
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  69. # [00:51] <BenMillard> jgraham, I'm still searching for a reply where you say that feature is definitely in the inspector, though.
  70. # [00:52] <jgraham> BenMillard: I replied off-list
  71. # [00:52] <Philip`> Hixie: Does work now - thanks :-)
  72. # [00:52] <jgraham> (I may also have replied on list)
  73. # [00:52] <Philip`> jgraham: The X-Archived-At header in W3C mail gives you a URL
  74. # [00:55] <jgraham> Philip`: Interesting. I guess using view source on the mail isn't so bad
  75. # [00:55] <BenMillard> jgraham, I guess this will do: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0082.html
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  77. # [00:57] <jgraham> BenMillard: That sounds reasonable
  78. # [00:58] <annevk> jgraham, Archived-At gives you a URL, at least for w3.org lists
  79. # [00:58] <annevk> oops, didn't scroll down far enough
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  83. # [01:08] <BenMillard> jgraham, updated the first analysis: http://projectcerbera.com/blog/2008/08/headers
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  85. # [01:09] <BenMillard> (search for "request")
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  128. # [04:38] <PatomaS> Hi
  129. # [04:40] <PatomaS> i have a lot of questions, and of course for you most of them should be boring, but well, i'm just trying to get a better idea of this
  130. # [04:40] <kingryan> hi PatomaS
  131. # [04:40] <PatomaS> :)
  132. # [04:40] <PatomaS> hi
  133. # [04:40] <kingryan> what are your questions?
  134. # [04:41] <PatomaS> well, many of them, after reading here and there, and trying to think a little, usually have one thing in common and that is, When and why was the necessity of joining html and xhtml born?
  135. # [04:42] <PatomaS> or may be i should rephrase that
  136. # [04:42] <PatomaS> ?
  137. # [04:43] <kingryan> well, they've always been joined, in that xhtml is an xml dialect of the html language
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  139. # [04:43] <PatomaS> yes, that's true
  140. # [04:44] <PatomaS> but the line was evolving/changing in one direction and now it seems a bit chaotic ...
  141. # [04:44] <PatomaS> i mean
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  143. # [04:45] <kingryan> yes, there was a fork: xhtml2 went one direction and, well, everyone else went another
  144. # [04:45] <PatomaS> ha ha ha
  145. # [04:45] <PatomaS> yes, specially when they wrote that the v2 won't be backwards compatible ...
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  147. # [04:46] <PatomaS> but reading some of their material in the list, it seems that at the end, it won't be as differente, if it makes it till the end, of course
  148. # [04:46] <PatomaS> i meant that different
  149. # [04:48] <PatomaS> i suppose that part of the chaos feling comes from two main areas, at least for me, one is the extremely complex specification of html 5, and the mess in the w3c lists
  150. # [04:49] <kingryan> yeah
  151. # [04:49] <PatomaS> for instance, the changes in css3, using namespaces, plus the overlapping with the html group and the xhtml group, and things like that ...
  152. # [04:49] <kingryan> the html5 spec is complex, but not as complex as browsers :)
  153. # [04:49] <PatomaS> that's true
  154. # [04:50] <PatomaS> i'm sure they are complex, specially adding more and more features
  155. # [04:51] <PatomaS> and of course the idea of a browser behaving purist is 100% unachievable
  156. # [04:51] <kingryan> purity doesn't matter, only interoperability. it doesn't matter what browsers do, as long as they all do the same thing
  157. # [04:52] <PatomaS> well, yeah, which we know it is not happenning
  158. # [04:52] <PatomaS> but they are behaving closer, i think ...
  159. # [04:52] <PatomaS> at least in many aspects, common aspects
  160. # [04:52] <kingryan> right, things are getting better. and i think the whatwg has facilitated that
  161. # [04:53] <PatomaS> well, i know this is not the best place to say it, but i don't know if the whatwg, but the people that forms it ...
  162. # [04:53] <PatomaS> and with that i mean
  163. # [04:54] <PatomaS> that the people in the group have been fighting for get thigs right, or better, or easier, most of them are kind of icons or referents you can use to follow or to help develop yourself (myself)
  164. # [04:55] <PatomaS> and for that, i'm ver very thankful
  165. # [04:56] <PatomaS> but about the html5 thing, i'm still, reluctant in may aspects, mainly with reasons, why's and the linke, and agree with many of the contents and ideas ...
  166. # [04:56] <PatomaS> i don't know if i that was clear enough?
  167. # [04:58] <takkaria> are you asking a question or just thinking out loud? :)
  168. # [04:58] <codedread> annevk: because despite outward appearances, i do have other work I need to do :)
  169. # [04:59] <PatomaS> sorry for that ...
  170. # [05:00] <PatomaS> yes, i had questions, and some of them are not that straight forward ...
  171. # [05:00] <PatomaS> so, i'l try to write that in the forum ...
  172. # [05:00] <PatomaS> :)
  173. # [05:01] <codedread> (and i had the quote handy from an email)
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  219. # [08:47] <annevk> codedread, ok, though testing that should have taken as long as writing the e-mail or less (simply pasting the given example in a file and loading that in Opera)
  220. # [08:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: good to see changes on the EULAs. thanks.
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  228. # [09:37] <BenMillard> gsnedders, are you here?
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  262. # [12:36] * Philip` thinks browsers should detect when text/plain content looks like RSS, and then still display it as text/plain but show the little feed autodiscovery icon so you can still choose to subscribe to it (at which point it'll start ignoring the content-type entirely)
  263. # [12:44] <zcorpan> aaronlev: i've checked "watch this page" but i'm not getting emails. is that the way to subscribe to changes?
  264. # [12:45] <aaronlev> zcorpan: check your preference
  265. # [12:45] <aaronlev> your prefs
  266. # [12:54] <annevk> euh, since when is #%3F supposed to match name="%3F" rather than name="?"
  267. # [12:54] <annevk> or is it supposed to match both?
  268. # [12:54] <annevk> and browsers do this for id="" too?!
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  270. # [12:55] <annevk> (I couldn't find the door)
  271. # [12:56] <zcorpan> annevk: for usemap?
  272. # [12:57] <annevk> dunno about usemap, this is about fragids
  273. # [12:57] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  274. # [12:57] <annevk> eg, href="#%3F"
  275. # [12:58] <zcorpan> annevk: ah. i remember that being discussed on the list sometime ago. didn't firefox do the right thing?
  276. # [12:58] <Hixie> annevk: when you figure it out, mail the list :-)
  277. # [12:58] <annevk> ah, yes, but not for the name="" attribute
  278. # [12:59] <annevk> Hixie, sure thing
  279. # [12:59] * annevk goes back to fixing XHR2 from which he was distracted as it's quite boring
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  281. # [13:30] <Hixie> two more elements to summarise
  282. # [13:30] <Hixie> and then the hard work begins
  283. # [13:31] <annevk> whatwg.org is rather quick again, nice
  284. # [13:31] <Hixie> nn
  285. # [13:33] <annevk> Hixie, btw, new Option takes 4 args
  286. # [13:33] <annevk> I e-mailed about this a long time ago iirc
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  289. # [13:50] <zcorpan> is <input type=hidden> interactive content?
  290. # [13:50] <codedread> annevk: fair enough - i should have tested (and I did after I sent the email actually), but i also thought it important that there was an apparent difference of opinion between some folks at Opera (chaals seemed to think that making things stricter wouldn't cause any problems with content creators while Erik seemed to think the opposite) ... though as you mention I may have confused what each were referring to
  291. # [13:51] <gsnedders> BenMillard: I am now! Even if you aren't!
  292. # [13:56] <Philip`> Email needs better metadata markup, since Gmail's heuristics keep getting it wrong -- 'Would you like to... Add to calendar: "r2148 - [] (0) WF2: Thu Sep 4, 2008 3:51pm"'
  293. # [13:57] <Philip`> (It's doing alright at extracting the date, just not at determining whether that date is the kind of thing I might possibly want to include in a calendar)
  294. # [13:58] <annevk> codedread, on further reflection, no big deal, I get annoyed sometimes with public-html people always asking questions and never really doing anything, but you don't really fit into that category
  295. # [13:59] <gsnedders> WF2 merge started, then?
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  297. # [14:02] <annevk> gsnedders, day ago or so
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  299. # [14:03] <annevk> Philip`, did you get lxml to work on DreamHost?
  300. # [14:03] * gsnedders is somewhat he's amazed that he totally missed it
  301. # [14:03] <annevk> I'm willing to work on an Anolis Web service soonish but I need some help getting the dependencies to run
  302. # [14:04] <Philip`> annevk: No, but I never tried
  303. # [14:04] <Philip`> I just run the spec-splitter on my own server
  304. # [14:04] * Quits: jdandrea (n=jdandrea@ool-44c09d7b.dyn.optonline.net) ("ciao")
  305. # [14:05] <Philip`> (I'm not sure whether running the spec-gen on there would be sensible or not, since the server doesn't have much CPU or bandwidth)
  306. # [14:05] <annevk> your own server?
  307. # [14:06] <Philip`> (If it used lxml's HTML parser/serialiser instead of html5lib then that'd probably solve the CPU concerns :-) )
  308. # [14:06] <annevk> I don't really need you to run it, I need to able to play with it myself :)
  309. # [14:06] <gsnedders> As I said, I can host it P
  310. # [14:06] <gsnedders> * :P
  311. # [14:06] <Philip`> annevk: Yes, or at least my server-like computer that is sitting in my parents' house behind an ADSL line :-)
  312. # [14:07] <Philip`> annevk: If you just want to play with it yourself, can't you install it on your own local machine?
  313. # [14:07] <annevk> that didn't work out either for some reason
  314. # [14:07] <annevk> oh well, back to XHR2 for me I guess
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  316. # [14:09] <Philip`> Hixie: By the way, if you want to start using the new spec-gen some time, I've got an updated version of the spec-splitter that should work properly with it
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  320. # [14:32] <annevk> grmbl, so IE does not decode the name="" attribute
  321. # [14:34] <annevk> I meant, does not decode name="" or fragment
  322. # [14:35] <annevk> which seems like a violation of RFC 3986
  323. # [14:35] <annevk> (fragment takes pchar, which takes pct-encoded)
  324. # [14:36] <annevk> Firefox decodes both
  325. # [14:36] <annevk> Opera decodes just fragment
  326. # [14:38] <annevk> (as per HTML5)
  327. # [14:39] * annevk makes a few tests so people can cross test
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  337. # [15:34] <Philip`> Hmm, it seems I had some code that was crashing Eclipse's Java compiler
  338. # [15:35] <Philip`> and every time I started Eclipse, it started automatically compiling all my code in the background, and crashed
  339. # [15:35] <Philip`> But it seems alright now after I moved the project files away and then moved them back again, which I don't really understand :-(
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  350. # [16:25] * Philip` discovers unsurprisingly but happily that the Validator.nu parser works in Jython very easily
  351. # [16:26] <hdh> is that jython2.5? does it cope with unicode well?
  352. # [16:26] <hsivonen> Philip`: nice. which Jython version?
  353. # [16:27] <Philip`> 2.5a1 and 2.2.1
  354. # [16:28] <Philip`> though I'm only using it in the trivialest possible way, parsing a string (via StringReader) to SAX and printing tag names
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  356. # [16:30] <zcorpan> Philip`: cool
  357. # [16:33] <Philip`> Unicode seems to work in both versions, at least in my limited testing
  358. # [16:33] <Philip`> (Passing the front page of ja.wikipedia.org to the parser (via FileInputStream), it calls the SAX characters method with something like
  359. # [16:33] <Philip`> array('c',[u'\u51fa', u'\u5178', ':', ' ', u'\u30d5', u'\u30ea', u'\u30fc', u'\u767e', u'\u79d1', u'\u4e8b', u'\u5178', u'\u300e', u'\u30a6', u'\u30a3', u'\u30ad', u'\u30da', u'\u30c7', u'\u30a3', u'\u30a2', u'\uff08', 'W', 'i', 'k', 'i', 'p', 'e', 'd', 'i', 'a', u'\uff09', u'\u300f'])
  360. # [16:33] <Philip`> which looks about right, I think)
  361. # [16:34] <hdh> thanks
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  365. # [16:46] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/apidocs/nu/validator/htmlparser/sax/HtmlParser.html - "void parseFragment(InputSource input, String context) Parser a fragment." - s/Parser/Parses/
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  369. # [16:58] <Philip`> http://www.jython.org/Project/roadmap.html - "Jython 3.0 (or Jython 3000 to denote the likely year of appearance) ..." - that's not sounding very optimistic
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  373. # [17:10] <hendry> does anyone know about the browser supportedMimeTypes object? http://static.webvm.net/supportedMimeTypes.html ? I've seen it in scripts but I can't find good docs about it and my test fails. :/
  374. # [17:10] * Quits: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  375. # [17:11] <annevk> don't rely on it
  376. # [17:12] <hendry> annevk: i'm trying to find a reliable way of detecting plugins cross-platform. BrowserPlus use it and several other ppl like Apple I think. Any other suggestions? :)
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  378. # [17:13] <hendry> still doesn't explain why the test doesn't finish ... http://static.webvm.net/supportedMimeTypes.html
  379. # [17:14] <annevk> don't use plugins? :)
  380. # [17:14] <hendry> annevk: plugins are the future dude :)
  381. # [17:17] <hendry> oops i see the problem. navigator.mimeTypes was what I needed. Crikey i need coffee.
  382. # [17:18] <smedero> In Gecko I think you have to use navigator.mimeTypes, right? http://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/window.navigator.mimeTypes
  383. # [17:18] <smedero> ahh
  384. # [17:18] <smedero> Not sure what support for that is like either...
  385. # [17:19] <Philip`> hendry: Plugins are so much not the future that Google released a whole web browser to get around the problems of distributing Gears as a plugin :-)
  386. # [17:19] <hendry> Philip`: that's one theory :)
  387. # [17:20] <Philip`> Plugins look boring so nobody's going to bother downloading them; but a new browser can have an exciting shiny new interface which will make people pay attention and download in their millions
  388. # [17:20] <annevk> hendry, hopefully it stays that way
  389. # [17:21] <Philip`> and if that happens to have the plugin's functionality integrated into it, so much the better
  390. # [17:22] <annevk> hmm, Firefox doesn't work with <!doctype> (Opera and IE do), but we've been over that, I think
  391. # [17:22] <Philip`> It works with <!doctypehtml> though, as do Opera and IE
  392. # [17:22] <hendry> well i'm working on a product that hopes to compete ultimately with gears. so i'm hoping it will become easier to install plugins (like extensions) https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=453632
  393. # [17:23] <Philip`> which is one less character, which is like a terabyte less data when you consider the whole web
  394. # [17:23] <annevk> though per hixie's argument Firefox 3 doesn't matter anymore when the spec is done
  395. # [17:23] <Philip`> Maybe HTML5 should say that <!doctype> must trigger standards mode, so HTML6 can shorten the required doctype?
  396. # [17:25] <annevk> maybe, in some way <!doctype html> is sensible, as it still works for XML
  397. # [17:26] <annevk> but then it doesn't work with common XML tools
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  439. # [19:35] <Philip`> http://www.google.com/search?q=css3-color - "www.w3.org/TR/css3-color/ - 125k - Cached - Similar pages / by A Authors - Related articles - All 6 versions" - that author name detection thing is really a bit rubbish
  440. # [19:35] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.119.80.7)
  441. # [19:35] <gsnedders> Philip`: just a bit
  442. # [19:36] * Philip` sees that page even uses hCard to mark up names
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  445. # [19:38] <hsivonen> Philip`: without profile!
  446. # [19:38] <tantek> I think I added the hCards to CSS3 Color before we had a profile URI for hCard
  447. # [19:39] <hsivonen> tantek: does profile solve a Real Problem and do hcard consumers have an incentive to start observing rel=profile?
  448. # [19:39] <hsivonen> tantek: that is, isn't class=vcard enough of a disambiguator?
  449. # [19:40] <tantek> profiles references solve the same real problems that !DOCTYPE references do
  450. # [19:41] <hsivonen> I read that as a "no" :-)
  451. # [19:42] <tantek> class="vcard" is enough of a disambiguator as much as the <html> root element start tag is enough of a disambiguator
  452. # [19:42] <Philip`> The <html> root element start tag is optional :-)
  453. # [19:42] <tantek> hsivonen, it means that those that care about !DOCTYPE references also care about profile references, and those that don't, don't.
  454. # [19:43] <hsivonen> tantek: I see
  455. # [19:44] <tantek> ah, correction, class="vcard" is enough of a disambiguator as much as the <body> start tag is enough of a disambiguator
  456. # [19:44] <Philip`> The <body> start tag is optional :-)
  457. # [19:44] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-b652bbd66ef9bc97)
  458. # [19:44] <tantek> are we talking HTML4 here or HTML5?
  459. # [19:44] <Philip`> Both
  460. # [19:45] <tantek> ah, just <title> then?
  461. # [19:45] <tantek> right, that's the one then
  462. # [19:46] <Philip`> <!DOCTYPE html><title></title> is the shortest (syntactically?) valid HTML5 document, and I think <!DOCTYPE blah blah blah etc etc etc><title></title> is the shortest HTML4 one
  463. # [19:47] <hasather> Philip`: you need body element in HTML 4 at least
  464. # [19:47] * Philip` wonders if class="vcard" could be unambiguously optional
  465. # [19:47] <tantek> Philip, feel free to join us in #microformats on that question ;)
  466. # [19:48] <Philip`> Oh, okay
  467. # [19:48] <Philip`> I think <!DOCTYPE blah blah blah etc etc etc><title></title>x is the shortest HTML4 one, then
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  469. # [19:49] <Philip`> tantek: That would put me dangerously close to doing something useful, rather than just wondering randomly in an unrelated IRC channel
  470. # [19:49] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@88-97-29-76.dsl.zen.co.uk)
  471. # [19:56] <Philip`> krijnh: Your logs' referrer list has an interesting positive feedback effect
  472. # [19:56] <Philip`> You are the top result on Google for "chrome error 104", because it matches the occurrences of that string in your referrer list
  473. # [19:57] <Philip`> and the string is in your referrer list because lots of people are visiting your site through Google with it, because you are the top result on Google
  474. # [19:58] <annevk> sounds like epic fail on Google's behalf
  475. # [20:00] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@163.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
  476. # [20:01] <gsnedders> Philip`: Only under Transitional can you have just "x". Strict is a shorter word than Transitional in the DTD, so <p>x is needed
  477. # [20:01] <Philip`> Indeed, since it's their fault that people are searching for that string in the first place
  478. # [20:02] <Philip`> gsnedders: Bah :-(
  479. # [20:02] <Philip`> gsnedders: though you can use just <p> and not <p>x
  480. # [20:02] <gsnedders> Philip`: yeah
  481. # [20:05] <Philip`> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC"-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN"><title></title><p> gets through the W3C validator with no errors, though I don't entirely understand how
  482. # [20:05] <Philip`> (The lack of space after PUBLIC saves one character)
  483. # [20:06] <Philip`> (The validator says it's Transitional, but appears to apply Strict rules to it)
  484. # [20:06] * gsnedders extracts his copy from under the Oxford Style Manual
  485. # [20:06] <gsnedders> *of the SGML Handbook
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  487. # [20:07] <gsnedders> Philip`: You need the space
  488. # [20:08] <Philip`> gsnedders: Tell that to validator.w3.org :-p
  489. # [20:08] <gsnedders> Philip`: No
  490. # [20:08] <gsnedders> Philip`: I'm lazy :P
  491. # [20:08] <Philip`> gsnedders: I'm lazier
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  493. # [20:09] * Philip` is currently too lazy to even bother going home
  494. # [20:09] * gsnedders sometimes stays in the school library after school due to that
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  497. # [20:17] <gsnedders> smedero: Nice mix of English and French
  498. # [20:19] <hasather> Philip`: you don't need the space
  499. # [20:19] <hasather> it's a parameters separator IIRC
  500. # [20:19] <smedero> gsnedders: I thought you might enjoy the "english language" version of their site...
  501. # [20:19] * Philip` will go home and let gsnedders and hasather fight it out :-)
  502. # [20:19] <hasather> Philip`: those can be ommitted in some circumstances
  503. # [20:19] <hasather> *omitted
  504. # [20:20] <gsnedders> smedero: No, I just gave up on that mix and looked at the French
  505. # [20:20] <gsnedders> hasather: Ah, I just assumed ps+ meant you needed one or more ps char
  506. # [20:20] <gsnedders> smedero: No room for three people though :(
  507. # [20:21] <smedero> sigh
  508. # [20:21] <gsnedders> smedero: They seem to never have three bedroom rooms free
  509. # [20:22] <hasather> gsnedders: p. 372: "A required ps that is adjacent to a delimiter or another ps can be can be omitted if no ambiguity would be created thereby." :)
  510. # [20:22] <gsnedders> hasather: ah
  511. # [20:22] <gsnedders> hasather: I was too lazy to check that
  512. # [20:22] <gsnedders> :)
  513. # [20:22] <smedero> they don't have a "unlucky sob, gets to sleep on the floor" checkbox?
  514. # [20:22] * smedero is actually quite happy to sleep on floors
  515. # [20:23] <Philip`> Maybe they would be happier if you claimed you were going to share a bed
  516. # [20:23] <Philip`> (but then you could actually sleep on the floor instead, depending on your preferences)
  517. # [20:23] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  518. # [20:25] <gsnedders> smedero: As I said, I can just stay elsewhere before the TPAC
  519. # [20:25] <gsnedders> smedero: And it's only us two on the Friday night
  520. # [20:25] <gsnedders> (That sounded wrong)
  521. # [20:25] <smedero> snuggletastic
  522. # [20:26] <smedero> alright, I can't actually remember what BenMillard found at the other hotel now...
  523. # [20:26] <smedero> was it 4 nights?
  524. # [20:26] <gsnedders> smedero: Mon–Fri
  525. # [20:26] <smedero> oh, well that's not so bad.
  526. # [20:26] <gsnedders> smedero: Yeah, 4 nights
  527. # [20:26] <smedero> not sure what I'm doing about saturday.
  528. # [20:27] * gsnedders can probably find some distant relation to scrounge off if he has to
  529. # [20:27] <smedero> could probably find someone at the conference willing to lend a hand.
  530. # [20:27] <smedero> well, let's just do the 4 nights then
  531. # [20:27] <gsnedders> smedero: Hmm. All they have is doubles for the Friday night
  532. # [20:31] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
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  534. # [20:36] <annevk> Philip`, http://damowmow.com/playground/not-html-yet-valid.html
  535. # [20:47] <Dashiva> Error: Required children missing from element body.
  536. # [20:48] <Dashiva> Is that another way of saying "implied body must have at least one child"?
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  672. # [23:01] <gsnedders> Anyone got anything they want me to do before the weekend?
  673. # [23:02] <annevk> release a Web service?
  674. # [23:02] <annevk> have fun?
  675. # [23:02] * gsnedders sighs
  676. # [23:02] <gsnedders> s/want/need/
  677. # [23:02] <virtuelv> stop feeling like I've been run over
  678. # [23:02] * gsnedders inflates virtuelv
  679. # [23:03] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-abede01200a80423)
  680. # [23:03] <virtuelv> gsnedders: nothing worse than having been on my first run in ten years
  681. # [23:03] <virtuelv> I couldn't do it back then, because of shin splints
  682. # [23:03] <virtuelv> and now I feel like shit
  683. # [23:09] <Hixie> so has there ever been an htmlwg telecon where someone changed their mind about something? or where any other kind of actual progress was made?
  684. # [23:09] <Hixie> every time i read the minutes they just seem to be people repeating the arguments they made in the mailing list
  685. # [23:09] <Hixie> like some sort of weird group therapy session
  686. # [23:10] <annevk> I wasn't sure either why we had this telcon. Seemed that DanC shared my feelings for at least some of the topics
  687. # [23:11] <annevk> I thought I'd volunteer for minuting this time so we wouldn't get the fallout that was there last week
  688. # [23:11] <annevk> (so far so good)
  689. # [23:12] * Hixie wonders why this xslt thread is continuing now that the issue has been resolved
  690. # [23:12] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  691. # [23:13] <Hixie> why can't the people using libraries like java just output "<!DOCTYPE HTML>" and then use the serialiser without a doctype?
  692. # [23:13] <Hixie> or output whatever DOCTYPE they want and then just change it using a one line regexp?
  693. # [23:13] <annevk> "wc"
  694. # [23:13] <Hixie> or output XML and use one of the several convertors to convert the XML to HTML5?
  695. # [23:13] <Hixie> annevk: ?
  696. # [23:14] <annevk> (wc being wrong channel)
  697. # [23:14] <Lachy> Hixie, I don't know. That's what I've been saying all along
  698. # [23:14] <annevk> hard to find XSLT fans around here
  699. # [23:15] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-ff276ec6bf3828ab)
  700. # [23:15] <Dashiva> It's probably the usual problem fragmentation where three people have three different problems they want solved, and every time one solution is proposed it is rejected as not solving a different problem
  701. # [23:15] <annevk> anyway, fragment tests: 4 engines, all different
  702. # [23:16] <Lachy> If there's one thing the XSLT thread has proven, it's that XSLT is not a suitable system to use for serialising HTML at all and I really don't understand why people insist on being able to use it for that at all
  703. # [23:21] <annevk> -Future of HTML, XML, etc. See Tim's talk to April 2008 AC meeting. Could be worthy of 1/2 day of discussion in several sessions (Steve)
  704. # [23:21] <annevk> -HTML spec management (Arun volunteered to moderate)
  705. # [23:21] <annevk> --http://www.w3.org/2008/10/TPAC/TPDay-Agenda.html
  706. # [23:25] <annevk> in other news: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Sep/att-0007/2008-09-03.html#topic7
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  709. # [23:45] <Philip`> Konqueror says B on all eight of those tests
  710. # [23:45] <Philip`> (v3.5.9)
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  712. # [23:46] <annevk> that makes 5, I think
  713. # [23:46] <Philip`> It converts 001.htm#? into 001.htm?# and then the empty fragment identifier matches the B div
  714. # [23:47] <annevk> oh? wow
  715. # [23:47] <annevk> maybe I shouldn't have assumed correct URL parsing
  716. # [23:48] <Philip`> WebKit makes 001.htm# show B too
  717. # [23:49] <Philip`> (Maybe it's just matching the first element with any name?)
  718. # Session Close: Fri Sep 05 00:00:01 2008

The end :)