/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-09-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Sep 05 00:00:01 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] <annevk> hmm, just # should show the top of the document in theory
  4. # [00:03] <Dashiva> On the other hand, a *good* teacher would teach not to edit directly,
  5. # [00:03] <Dashiva> but to use a proper set of tools. For instance, editing in XHTML, and
  6. # [00:03] <Dashiva> then serializing to text/html.
  7. # [00:03] <Dashiva> ... with XLST?
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  13. # [00:32] <Philip`> Hixie: What do you expect IE to do with a text/plain movie file?
  14. # [00:33] <Philip`> Some version of IE6 (in Wine) gives a file download box; IE8 seems to display it as plain text, regardless of nosniff
  15. # [00:36] <Hixie> Philip`: display a download dialog, as per http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#content-type1
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  18. # [00:38] <Philip`> Hixie: Ah
  19. # [00:39] <Hixie> well you can add http://wiki.opensocial-templates.org/index.php?title=OpenSocial_Data_Pipelining to the list of pages showing misunderstanding of namespaces
  20. # [00:39] <Hixie> there's a prefix used without even a declaration
  21. # [00:39] <Philip`> Hixie: I do get a download dialog if the file is served as application/octet-stream or foo/bar etc, but it's just shown as text if it's text/plain
  22. # [00:39] <Hixie> (s/you/we/)
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  24. # [00:39] <Hixie> Philip`: wow
  25. # [00:39] <Hixie> Philip`: that's surprising
  26. # [00:41] <Hixie> wow in fact it's intentional:
  27. # [00:41] <Hixie> http://wiki.opensocial-templates.org/index.php?title=OpenSocial_Markup
  28. # [00:41] <Hixie> opensocial totally calls prefixes "namespaces"
  29. # [00:41] <Hixie> that's funny
  30. # [00:41] <Hixie> you can't process opensocial using an xml namespace-aware parser
  31. # [00:41] <Philip`> Better be careful not to tell Microsoft that they're not sniffing videos, in case it's a bug and they fix it
  32. # [00:42] <Philip`> XML Namespace-aware parser? Is that like a really fancy type of regexp?
  33. # [00:43] <Philip`> Their <os:PeopleSelector> example seems to forget the > on the <form> element
  34. # [00:43] <Philip`> so I guess they haven't tested this incredibly carefully
  35. # [00:43] <Hixie> heh
  36. # [00:43] <Hixie> it's deployed, as i understand it
  37. # [00:45] <Philip`> How does the deployed implementation work? Given that they've seemingly got a properly namespaced schema, it might just be the spec writer didn't understand what was going on
  38. # [00:45] <Hixie> dunno
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  45. # [00:54] * Philip` discovers that Chrome's canvas is a bit buggy
  46. # [00:55] <Philip`> When I walk up to the walls in Canvex, they go all stripey-black :-(
  47. # [00:55] <Philip`> (Also it does ugly upscaling of images)
  48. # [00:55] <Philip`> (But at least it's pretty fast)
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  50. # [00:56] <Hixie> hsivonen: validating this: <!DOCTYPE html><title></title><dl><dt></dt><dd><code></dd></dl>
  51. # [00:56] <Hixie> hsivonen: results in a message that talks about a "p" end tag
  52. # [00:57] <annevk> heh, prolly c&p
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  55. # [01:10] <Hixie> jruderman: fixed the routing problem
  56. # [01:11] <jruderman> Hixie: which problem?
  57. # [01:11] <jruderman> Hixie: oh, the google maps thing with the mozilla office
  58. # [01:13] <jruderman> Hixie: now it directs people to building S rather than building K, but that's probably a lot harder to get right
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  60. # [01:14] <jruderman> Hixie: thanks, now we'll lose fewer moco employees to pedestrian fatalities on the 101 freeway
  61. # [01:15] <Philip`> Why does Google Maps choose a certain route when there's an alternative that's two minutes shorter, and that it's happy to pick when I drag the route around a bit?
  62. # [01:15] * Philip` isn't sure why it'd be optimising for anything except distance
  63. # [01:17] <gavin> it takes into account speed limits and such, doesn't it?
  64. # [01:17] <gavin> favors highways/major streets too, I think
  65. # [01:17] <gavin> I'm sure it's very complex
  66. # [01:17] <Philip`> Uh, speed limits for pedestrians?
  67. # [01:17] <gavin> oh, well
  68. # [01:17] <gavin> that's in beta!
  69. # [01:17] <Philip`> (This is the walking mode)
  70. # [01:17] <Hixie> jruderman: well the pin can be edited by users (and has been. a lot. maybe other people in your office are moving it to the wrong location. :-) )
  71. # [01:18] <jruderman> Hixie: hehe
  72. # [01:18] <codedread> funny - i just noticed this pin editing thing 5 minutes ago
  73. # [01:18] <Hixie> jruderman: but the problem was that it ended on 101, and that has been fixed for the address you gave :-)
  74. # [01:18] <Hixie> Philip`: simplicity is a factor
  75. # [01:18] <jruderman> Hixie: did you fix it letting people put building pins on freeways, or did you just move that one pin?
  76. # [01:19] <Hixie> jruderman: i can't talk about what the actual fix is, because it's a two phase fix and the second phase hasn't shipped yet.
  77. # [01:19] <Hixie> ask me again in a few weeks
  78. # [01:19] <jruderman> you guys take the 'future products or services' way too seriously
  79. # [01:19] <Hixie> :-)
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  81. # [01:20] * gsnedders passes jruderman a future product or service
  82. # [01:20] <Philip`> Hixie: I suppose it could be, but the shorter route is only two extra steps, and I'm too lazy to travel an extra two minutes just for that
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  92. # [02:16] <Hixie> Philip`: i'm not defending it, just saying what the reason is
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  94. # [02:18] <roc_> I don't think the 101 problem was the pin location
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  98. # [02:26] <Hixie> roc_: why not? (as far as i can tell, the pin location caused maps to decide the nearest street was 101.)
  99. # [02:27] <roc_> because even if the nearest street *is* 101 (and presumably there are valid locations for which that's true), it should know you can't stop there.
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  101. # [02:28] <roc_> I'm not ripping on Maps, it's great and the problem is hard. Besides, I have friends who work on it
  102. # [02:28] <Hixie> oh i agree that it could try to avoid stopping on 101 in general
  103. # [02:29] <roc_> I only blogged about it because I thought it was hilarious. The Street View was particularly good :-)
  104. # [02:30] * Hixie didn't know you'd blogged about it
  105. # [02:30] <roc_> ages ago
  106. # [02:31] <Hixie> ah
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  109. # [02:32] <jruderman> i also tried to report it as a bug using email a long time ago, but telling hixie about it yesterday got it fixed quickly :)
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  117. # [03:22] <roc_> http://developer.mozilla.org/web-tech/2008/09/04/web-workers-part-1/
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  119. # [03:24] <Hixie> i love how all the examples of workers are always really really inefficent implementations of solved problems :-)
  120. # [03:25] <Hixie> do any of the demos on whatwg.org/demos/workers work?
  121. # [03:25] <roc_> to be fair, compilers like to use fibonacci too
  122. # [03:26] <Hixie> oh i'm to blame as well
  123. # [03:26] <roc_> I wish for a compiler that can optimize fibonacci to the closed form
  124. # [03:26] <Hixie> one of my examples uses 11 workers to return a constant
  125. # [03:26] <roc_> I don't really know much about the workers work myself, so I couldn't answer your question other than by testing them
  126. # [03:26] <Hixie> k
  127. # [03:26] <Hixie> i'll grab a build once i'm back on my laptop
  128. # [03:27] <Hixie> (my linux box can't run ff3, doesn't have some required library)
  129. # [03:27] <Hixie> libgtk-x11 or something
  130. # [03:27] <Philip`> roc_: It ought to be easy for the compiler just to do pattern-matching to detect a Fibonacci function and replace it with an efficient library call
  131. # [03:27] <roc_> Philip`: yeah, but that's cheating
  132. # [03:27] <Philip`> (like what MSVC does with memcpy loops)
  133. # [03:27] <Philip`> (but pointlesser)
  134. # [03:28] <roc_> recognizing and solving general difference equations is possible, although probably equally useless in practice
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  137. # [03:29] <Philip`> I guess the compiler would have to work out it needs a "if (n < 0) { for(;;); }" to get the right computation
  138. # [03:29] <Lachy> I finally got my public-html email backlog down to zero! -)
  139. # [03:30] <Lachy> now I can start on the 485 in the whatwg backlog :-/
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  145. # [03:53] <BenMillard> Hixie, there's a similar problem with ARIA examples for static web content: existing semantics in HTML4 are often adequate, or the ARIA becomes unnecessary when the feature is changed to follow a usable design pattern.
  146. # [03:53] <BenMillard> (Re: your comment about workers examples)
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  151. # [04:32] <BenMillard> Hixie, I sent a follow-up to my review of "@headers issue resolved": http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Sep/0163.html
  152. # [04:33] <BenMillard> the blog entry it links to has numerical analysis of the tables cited as supporting evidence versus corrected and redesigned versions I've done
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  154. # [04:37] <BenMillard> time for lunch :P
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  181. # [08:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: I guess in the case of Java the problem scenario is that someone has serialization code buried at the end of a pipeline somewhere
  182. # [08:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: and then they start sending HTML5 stuff through the pipeline
  183. # [08:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: and the output is wrong
  184. # [08:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: and ripping out 4 or 5 lines of code and replacing them with 2 lines of code referring to the serializer I wrote is onerous
  185. # [08:31] <hsivonen> as they'd need to discover and add Yet Another Jar
  186. # [08:31] <hsivonen> and perhaps convince their lawyers that code under the MIT license and copyright Mozilla Foundation is OK to use
  187. # [08:32] <hsivonen> I get an impression that the HTML5 content would end up in the pipeline in a semi-uncoordinated way
  188. # [08:33] <hsivonen> because if it were coordinated, one would think the serializer swapping could be coordinated, too
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  240. # [11:06] <annevk> Hixie, http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-November/007719.html was my e-mail
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  243. # [11:08] <annevk> Hixie, it's in the WF3 folder apparently o_O
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  329. # [11:26] <Lachy> LOL! I like how John Foliot claims my proposed study of longdesc is flawed based on the fact that it will reveal the exact problems I designed to reveal. :-)
  330. # [11:27] <Dashiva> Seems quite in line with most commercial studies :)
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  332. # [11:33] <hsivonen> one can read quite a bit of browser history in the UA string of Chrome
  333. # [11:34] <hsivonen> I wonder if we ever come up with a way to stop the growth of the UA string
  334. # [11:35] <hsivonen> does a typical HTTP GET request still fit on one IP packet?
  335. # [11:35] <Dashiva> Yeah, one day we'll have RealUserAgent instead
  336. # [11:35] <Dashiva> Since everything in the original UA string will be back-compat and talismans
  337. # [11:39] <hsivonen> is Netscape 6 the only browser in history that has swam against the UA string cruft stream?
  338. # [11:39] <hsivonen> Opera did recently, but it can still vary it per site, right?
  339. # [11:39] <wilhelm> No. Mine says "Opera/9.52 (X11; Linux i686; U; en)".
  340. # [11:39] <wilhelm> Yes. It identifies as other browsers on some sites.
  341. # [11:40] <wilhelm> We maintain a list.
  342. # [11:40] <Dashiva> Why on earth does it list X11...
  343. # [11:40] <hsivonen> Dashiva: well, it say U and en, too...
  344. # [11:41] <Dashiva> Yeah, but my windows version says that too
  345. # [11:41] <hsivonen> Chrome/1.0 now that would have been revolutionary :-)
  346. # [11:41] <Philip`> Does any browser ever *not* say "U"?
  347. # [11:41] <Dashiva> platform, U, language is always there
  348. # [11:41] * Philip` doesn't know if they can be configured with rubbish encryption instead of U
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  350. # [11:42] <Philip`> IE8b2 now sends a "UA-CPU: x86" header
  351. # [11:42] <webben> what?
  352. # [11:42] <webben> what for?
  353. # [11:43] <roc_> so that Web pages can send the correct x86 binaries for execution
  354. # [11:43] <hsivonen> webben: ActiveX install sites perhaps?
  355. # [11:43] <roc_> process separation rules
  356. # [11:43] <webben> hsivonen: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2006/10/17/accept-language-header-for-internet-explorer-7.aspx#839384 seems so.
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  359. # [11:45] <Philip`> Oh, IE7 sends UA-CPU too?
  360. # [11:48] * hsivonen wonders if people who write about "token security" intended the pun...
  361. # [11:52] <annevk> so should I do my fragment tests again with ( or so as character instead of ?
  362. # [11:54] <Philip`> That should avoid the URL-parsing issues in (at least) Konqueror
  363. # [11:57] <annevk> does x' help with that too?
  364. # [11:57] <annevk> ' seems pretty harmless, and suffix it with x just in case
  365. # [11:58] <annevk> prefix, I mean, though i'll suffix it as well
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  367. # [12:01] <annevk> so far same results in browsers
  368. # [12:01] <annevk> I think I'll leave it be
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  371. # [12:52] <hsivonen> How many Windows ports of WebKit are there with different graphics layers? Safari, Arora, Chrome, AIR. Did the company that ported WebKit to Windows Mobile have a 5th graphics layer?
  372. # [12:52] <hsivonen> does AIR use the same Abode vector graphics renderer as InDesign and Acrobat?
  373. # [12:53] <hsivonen> does any of them actually delegate Bézier rasterization to GDI+ or WPF?
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  376. # [13:01] <roc_> I don't know what AIR does
  377. # [13:01] <roc_> the others definitely don't
  378. # [13:01] <roc_> I'm pretty sure AIR doesn't either
  379. # [13:01] <zcorpan> should document.characterSet and document.charset be part of dom core instead of dom html?
  380. # [13:01] <roc_> GDI+ is crappy, WPF would be very hard to access
  381. # [13:07] <hsivonen> roc_: presumably the WPF renderer is C or C++. Don't they expose a C API for it?
  382. # [13:07] <roc_> they don't
  383. # [13:07] <hsivonen> roc_: that's odd.
  384. # [13:07] <roc_> no it's not
  385. # [13:07] <hsivonen> roc_: ok. strategically it may not be odd.
  386. # [13:08] <roc_> also, exposing APIs is costly
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  388. # [13:08] <roc_> because then you have to support them to the end of time
  389. # [13:08] <hsivonen> yeah
  390. # [13:08] * hsivonen just published an API
  391. # [13:08] <roc_> sucka
  392. # [13:11] <annevk> zcorpan, if they depend on charset sniffing might be easier in HTML
  393. # [13:12] <annevk> zcorpan, also, DOM Core already has various encoding features (all completely pointless of course, the DOM shouldn't deal with encoding)
  394. # [13:12] <hsivonen> zcorpan: does query string treatment depend on charset in XML?
  395. # [13:13] <annevk> eg, inputEncoding and xmlEncoding
  396. # [13:16] <hsivonen> which reminds me that I should extend Jing to pass the document's original encoding around totally in violation of sane layering
  397. # [13:17] <zcorpan> hsivonen: don't know
  398. # [13:18] <zcorpan> annevk: should i drop xmlEncoding and inputEncoding? only firefox supports those
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  400. # [13:19] <annevk> oh really? ugh
  401. # [13:19] <annevk> XMLHttpRequest references one of them :/
  402. # [13:19] <annevk> (that feature is not actually tested)
  403. # [13:19] <zcorpan> which one?
  404. # [13:19] <hsivonen> didn't DOM 3 specifiers look at what browsers already did?
  405. # [13:20] <zcorpan> hsivonen: evidently not
  406. # [13:20] <annevk> zcorpan, serializing Document for sending
  407. # [13:20] <annevk> hsivonen, nono, not at all
  408. # [13:20] <hsivonen> is the browser DOM exposed as a Java DOM anywhere?
  409. # [13:21] <hsivonen> is the Gecko DOM still available to applets or something?
  410. # [13:21] <zcorpan> annevk: xmlEncoding or inputEncoding?
  411. # [13:21] <annevk> input
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  413. # [13:21] <zcorpan> ok
  414. # [13:21] <zcorpan> i'll drop xml* and see if anyone complains
  415. # [13:21] <annevk> hsivonen, there's this plan to make a new DOM spec for the Web
  416. # [13:22] <annevk> hsivonen, we keep the old spec around as standard for Java and to upset nobody, but the spec for browsers would be this other thing
  417. # [13:22] <hsivonen> annevk: my point is, will it break something that really assumes that the JDK DOM interfaces and the Web DOM interfaces match?
  418. # [13:23] <annevk> aah, dunno
  419. # [13:23] <annevk> they already diverge here and there so I don't think it matters much
  420. # [13:23] <hsivonen> I wonder if there will be demand for GWT wrapping the browser DOM in org.w3c.dom interfaces
  421. # [13:24] <hsivonen> I can imagine someone might want to be able to compile the same code on the server and on GWT
  422. # [13:24] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/specs/web-dom-core
  423. # [13:25] <hsivonen> although GWT could probably fake the incompatible parts somehow
  424. # [13:26] <zcorpan> i've merged in dom2views
  425. # [13:26] <zcorpan> i'll drop all dom feature stuff except those that return booleans
  426. # [13:26] <zcorpan> (and are implemented)
  427. # [13:29] <annevk> dom2views is also merged in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/
  428. # [13:29] <zcorpan> oh
  429. # [13:29] <annevk> including elementFromPoint
  430. # [13:29] <zcorpan> cool
  431. # [13:30] <zcorpan> dropped both
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  433. # [13:31] <annevk> feel free to merge the exceptions from XMLHttpRequest and Web Workers in btw
  434. # [13:31] <annevk> if your spec moves fast enough we can just reference that then :)
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  436. # [13:33] <zcorpan> done
  437. # [13:34] <hsivonen> ajaxian.com requires a New York Times -style registration in order to comment :-(
  438. # [13:36] <hsivonen> the MSDN custom tag namespace stuff is amusing
  439. # [13:36] <hsivonen> <HTML XMLNS:MY>
  440. # [13:36] <hsivonen> no URI value
  441. # [13:37] <hsivonen> is the documentation for creating MathPlayer and Renesis-compatible DOM nodes via script in IE?
  442. # [13:38] <roc_> hsivonen: Java can still access the Gecko DOM, I'm pretty sure
  443. # [13:39] <roc_> as can Flash
  444. # [13:39] <hsivonen> roc_: ok.
  445. # [13:39] <roc_> but not via the org.w3c.dom interfaces AFAIK
  446. # [13:39] <hsivonen> oh.
  447. # [13:39] <hsivonen> I expect the threading with Java is interesting
  448. # [13:40] <roc_> annevk: did you notice that we implemented ClientRect.width/.height on trunk?
  449. # [13:40] <roc_> the threading isn't really our problem
  450. # [13:41] <roc_> the Java plugin is moving to use NPRuntime scripting, the same plugin two-way scripting API that Flash uses
  451. # [13:41] <annevk> roc_, no, somehow missed that, was it a while ago?
  452. # [13:41] <roc_> I really have no idea how that looks on the Java side
  453. # [13:42] <roc_> annevk: actually very recent
  454. # [13:42] * hsivonen was unaware of NPRuntime scripting
  455. # [13:43] <annevk> roc_, oh ok, I guess I need to add you or someone else to my bugzilla tracking preferences then :)
  456. # [13:43] <roc_> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/a612d3e553b2
  457. # [13:44] * hsivonen finds http://www.dessci.com/en/products/mathplayer/author/dynamic.htm#Scripting
  458. # [13:45] <roc_> Neil was really just trying to move scroll* and client* up to all elements, but also rolled in height and width
  459. # [13:45] <annevk> neat
  460. # [13:47] <hsivonen> will IE8 mode break these custom namespace ActiveX controls?
  461. # [13:47] * Philip` wonders if it's possible for a CGI script to print raw HTTP headers via lighttpd, instead of it being parsed and reserialised before transmission
  462. # [13:49] <roc_> I'm still a bit nervous about returning fractional values from ClientRect. People see it and assume it's a bug. However, I still think it's the right thing to do and it doesn't seem to have caused any actual damage
  463. # [13:49] <Philip`> hsivonen: I think they're meant to still work in most cases, except for e.g. https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=333905 if you're using CSS to assign namespace behaviour
  464. # [13:51] <hsivonen> Philip`: can the <?IMPORT stuff be inserted via JS or does the parser need to see it literally?
  465. # [13:51] <annevk> roc_, the spec does say float :p
  466. # [13:52] <hsivonen> Microsoft, Renesis and DesignScience aren't particularly forthcoming about this
  467. # [13:52] <Philip`> hsivonen: Do you count document.write as being inserted via JS?
  468. # [13:52] <hsivonen> Philip`: I do
  469. # [13:52] <hsivonen> Philip`: although I'd like to have a purely parserless way
  470. # [13:53] <hsivonen> Philip`: document.write should be OK for packaging the V.nu parser as a JS shim
  471. # [13:53] <hsivonen> Philip`: however, for the HTML5 Live DOM, I'd like to have a fully scripted API
  472. # [13:55] <Philip`> gsnedders: It works fine if I put the <?import...?> in document.write
  473. # [13:55] <Philip`> Uh
  474. # [13:55] <Philip`> s/gsnedders/hsivonen/
  475. # [13:56] <hsivonen> Philip`: OK. thanks
  476. # [13:56] <hsivonen> Philip`: do you know if it persists if the document contents are removed after that?
  477. # [13:57] <hsivonen> does IE even support emptying the document and inserting a new root?
  478. # [13:58] <Philip`> hsivonen: You can also do document.namespaces.add('v', 'http://www.w3.org blah blah it doesn\'t matter what you put here', '#default#VML');
  479. # [13:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: excellent. thanks
  480. # [13:59] <Philip`> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535932(VS.85).aspx - woah, it's even documented
  481. # [14:00] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it does so long as the new node is html and you use replaceChild (iirc)
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  483. # [14:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks. (the HTML5 Live DOM doesn't use replaceChild)
  484. # [14:02] * Philip` discovers a new way to crash IE8
  485. # [14:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: or wait, you can empty the document and then append a new child, too
  486. # [14:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: but you can't just empty the document and leave it empty
  487. # [14:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: how can it force me to insert something and not leave it empty?
  488. # [14:07] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/tests/ie8/cases/document-close.html - yay for IE8
  489. # [14:10] * Joins: dotjay (n=dotjay@5ac6eeee.bb.sky.com)
  490. # [14:13] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it throws if you don't insert anything
  491. # [14:13] <zcorpan> hsivonen: and leaves it in the state it was before emptying
  492. # [14:14] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ah.
  493. # [14:14] <hsivonen> (without testing, I'm assuming this is one of those weird situations where the scripted view to the DOM and the engine understanding of the DOM are synced only upon spin through the event loop)
  494. # [14:16] <zcorpan> Philip`: what happens?
  495. # [14:18] <Philip`> zcorpan: IE8b2 just freezes permanently
  496. # [14:19] <Philip`> While trying to report the bug, something's broken Opera so it's using 100% CPU and making my fans very loud, but at least Opera is still being responsive
  497. # [14:20] <Philip`> (To be more specific, IE8b2 freezes permanently and uses 100% CPU too)
  498. # [14:21] <Philip`> (To be more accurate, IE8b2 freezes permanently and uses 100%-divided-by-number-of-CPU-cores CPU too)
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  500. # [14:29] <annevk> btw, http://tc.labs.opera.com/html/img/usemap/001.htm demonstrates that name in combination with usemap is not affected, despite usemap taking a URL reference originally...
  501. # [14:30] <annevk> tested in Firefox 3, Internet Explorer 6, and Opera 9.5
  502. # [14:33] <zcorpan> annevk: matches the spec
  503. # [14:33] <annevk> right
  504. # [14:34] <annevk> just wondering name can always be normalized or not
  505. # [14:34] <annevk> ^^ whether
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  507. # [14:37] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/introducing-sax-tree/ - s/in and/in an/
  508. # [14:38] * annevk was just about to mention that
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  511. # [14:49] * Philip` wonders what's the most efficient way to read a load of HTML pages from disk
  512. # [14:49] <Philip`> I suppose the best way is to not actually read them from disk, so if I can compress them so they'll fit in RAM then that'd be good
  513. # [14:49] <zcorpan> can i drop normalize() and normalizeDocument() from dom core?
  514. # [14:49] <Philip`> but then I'll probably want more pages until it's too much to fit in RAM again :-(
  515. # [14:53] <annevk> zcorpan, prolly
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  517. # [15:09] <annevk> hahaha, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Sep/0175.html
  518. # [15:10] <annevk> the original message was already pointless, and now it's more
  519. # [15:10] <annevk> amazing
  520. # [15:10] * zcorpan drops setAttributeNodeNS
  521. # [15:10] <hasather> annevk: :D
  522. # [15:14] * zcorpan adds Element.children
  523. # [15:15] <annevk> zcorpan, you have time to work on this now?
  524. # [15:15] <annevk> zcorpan, also, when say "add" you mean "add in local copy"?
  525. # [15:16] <zcorpan> annevk: yes and yes :)
  526. # [15:16] <annevk> great and not so great :)
  527. # [15:19] <zcorpan> hmm, children is an HTMLCollection
  528. # [15:20] <zcorpan> layering problem
  529. # [15:20] <annevk> I once heard Ian suggest HTMLCollection should be part of the DOM specs
  530. # [15:20] <zcorpan> but under another name?
  531. # [15:20] <annevk> no
  532. # [15:20] <zcorpan> ok
  533. # [15:21] <annevk> but having references from DOM Core to HTML5 and vice versa doesn't seem bad eiter
  534. # [15:21] <annevk> either*
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  536. # [15:22] <zcorpan> i think dom core should be standalone
  537. # [15:22] <zcorpan> but for now i'll reference html5
  538. # [15:22] <annevk> i agree with the sentiment, not sure if it'll work out
  539. # [15:26] <zcorpan> uploaded new revision
  540. # [15:30] <annevk> any chance you can do HTML5/XMLHttpRequest-style IDL fragments rather than oldschool-DOM-spec-style IDL fragments?
  541. # [15:31] <annevk> eg, dropping "raises(DOMException)", dropping a lot of space characters and newlines
  542. # [15:32] <zcorpan> yeah i'll clean it up second-pass
  543. # [15:33] <annevk> you should prolly also keep some notes in the source of what is left out for now
  544. # [15:33] <annevk> at least, I would find that useful
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  546. # [15:35] <zcorpan> ok
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  548. # [16:01] <zcorpan> r3: add comments about what is dropped; added Text, Comment, DocumentType, ProcessingInstruction
  549. # [16:01] <zcorpan> i think i have all interfaces now; is there something i've missed?
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  552. # [16:04] <annevk> all the interfaces you want I assume? several interfaces appear to be dropped
  553. # [16:05] <annevk> DocumentPosition is needed fwiw; we recently had to add support for that
  554. # [16:08] <zcorpan> yeah. ok
  555. # [16:14] <annevk> http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Ftc.labs.opera.com%2Fhtml%2Fimg%2Fusemap%2F002.htm ?
  556. # [16:14] <annevk> hmm
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  558. # [16:15] <zcorpan> map is flow content
  559. # [16:16] <zcorpan> perhaps it should be changed to transparent phrasing?
  560. # [16:19] <annevk> I feel to see a good reason for why I should move the <map> out of the <p>
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  562. # [16:23] <annevk> wow, fail
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  566. # [16:29] <annevk> in case people were not convinced that proprietary is bad: http://uk.techcrunch.com/2008/09/04/startups-in-chaos-as-adobes-flashpaper-discontinues/
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  568. # [16:32] <smedero> It feels like an edge use-case but is there a reason to allow <map> inside of <p> for something like a sparkline with an image map that had pointers to expanded info about different data points? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparkline)
  569. # [16:32] <smedero> (i'm trying to bring up the whatwg list to see if that has been brought up before, but uh.. it is list.whatwg.org isn't responding for me...)
  570. # [16:34] <smedero> (ahh, now it is)
  571. # [16:35] <zcorpan> since <map> doens't behave like a block in the parser it feels unintiutive to disallow it in p
  572. # [16:36] <zcorpan> (and it's rendered inline)
  573. # [16:36] <zcorpan> (iirc)
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  583. # [17:22] <zcorpan> Hixie: why is "pre, code { font-size: inherit;" in http://www.whatwg.org/style/specification ?
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  593. # [18:18] <Philip`> How lovely - BeautifulSoup is giving me a <div> element whose parent is a <div> element whose only child is an <a> element
  594. # [18:20] <Philip`> Also, html5lib fails a zillion tests, so there's no way I can change anything without being quite likely to unknowingly introduce a regression
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  603. # [18:50] <Dashiva> So earlier it was all "@headers is only used in generated content, so it doesn't matter that it's complex and easy to mess up" and today it's "but the USER wants to use @headers in handwriting, so we should let him"
  604. # [18:57] <takkaria> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/xml/2008-September/msg00018.html -- icky
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  609. # [19:05] <smedero> Dashiva: Well it is also funny because Gez said he modified his example to "simplify the problem"
  610. # [19:06] <smedero> I don't think he redesigned it.... but it was modified in some form and I asked for a pointer the original so I can understand what was changed and I got zilch.
  611. # [19:06] <smedero> (it wasn't just changes to anonymize the data... columns and such were removed to "make it easier to understand")
  612. # [19:07] <Dashiva> Simplify the problem of getting people to accept it
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  614. # [19:16] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
  615. # [19:33] <sicking> annevk, ping
  616. # [19:35] * franksalim_ is now known as franksalim
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  619. # [19:45] <smedero> FWIW, Gez got me a pointer to the unmodified complexdatatable example: http://juicystudio.com/wcag/tables/altcomplex.html
  620. # [19:46] <smedero> (More or less, includes extra columns at the end...)
  621. # [19:50] <hsivonen> whoa. Renesis has an ASV compat Quirks Mode
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  626. # [20:14] <hsivonen> how do I create an element in IE via JS with a particular scopeName and tagUrn?
  627. # [20:15] <Philip`> Maybe by declaring a prefix with namespaces.add(...) and then createElement('prefix:name')?
  628. # [20:15] * Philip` doesn't know any other way
  629. # [20:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
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  638. # [20:36] <hsivonen> Philip`: that works
  639. # [20:36] <hsivonen> to the point of getting scopeName and tagUrn right
  640. # [20:37] <hsivonen> can I associate the scope name with an ActiveX control without inserting an <object> into the document?
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  642. # [20:41] <hsivonen> giving a clsid: URL as the third parameter of namespaces.add does not work
  643. # [20:45] <Lachy> I don't know how to make it any clearer to John Foliot, he seems to be totally missing the point of what I'm saying
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  645. # [20:46] <Lachy> I don't get why he can't comprehend that the proposed study is about seeing how effective longdesc is for users that currently have the ability to access it, nor why he doesn't understand why that would be useful
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  650. # [20:53] <hsivonen> it seems crazy if <?import has a JS equivalent but <object>-based ActiveX hook doesn't
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  652. # [20:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: "in and" fixed. thanks
  653. # [20:55] <hsivonen> Philip`: HtmlParser Javadoc fixed locally. thanks
  654. # [21:04] <Dashiva> What? There are AT apps that don't expose longdesc?
  655. # [21:05] <webben> Dashiva: There are AT apps that don't do ... lots of things.
  656. # [21:06] <webben> Dashiva: JAWS has exposed it since version 4.something.
  657. # [21:06] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.172) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  658. # [21:06] <webben> although in some recent versions, you've had to enable announcements for it.
  659. # [21:06] <Hixie> Lachy: as far as i can tell he's not interested in improving accessibility, only in sounding like he's an expert and getting his ego stroked by getting his way
  660. # [21:06] <webben> Dashiva: that behavior appears to have changed back to announcing by default in current JAWS 10 Beta.
  661. # [21:07] <Lachy> Hixie, fair enough. But honestly, did you clearly understand what the purpose of my proposed study, and why it would be useful?
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  663. # [21:08] <Lachy> I just want to make sure its not me who's missing something
  664. # [21:08] <Dashiva> webben: Wasn't it so that most JAWS users rarely, if ever, upgraded? So if it's gone in the latest version, it's not a big deal
  665. # [21:09] <webben> Dashiva: "most". I'm not sure that's true. Certainly the lag time for upgrades is greater for commercial AT at hundreds of $ a shot than for free web browsers.
  666. # [21:09] <Hixie> Lachy: yes
  667. # [21:10] <Hixie> Lachy: your proposal was exactly the kind of study we need to get objective data
  668. # [21:10] <webben> Dashiva: I'm not sure what the referent of "gone" is though.
  669. # [21:10] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  670. # [21:10] <Dashiva> webben: default announcement
  671. # [21:10] <Hixie> Lachy: though next time i would phrase your hypothesis to sound like you agree with the side that isn't yours
  672. # [21:11] <Hixie> Lachy: since the hypothesis doesn't matter (we get the same results either way) and the people who are clearly unable to understand how to do research would at least not get a knee jerk reaction against you
  673. # [21:11] <Philip`> Now all we need is infinite resources so we can carry out reliable user studies without worrying about their cost
  674. # [21:12] <Dashiva> Hixie: They'd probably knee-jerk just from the from address
  675. # [21:12] <webben> Dashiva: No. It's the other way round, I think. Default announcement has come _back_.
  676. # [21:12] <Philip`> Hixie: But then they'll say the hypothesis is self-evident and there's no point doing new studies on it
  677. # [21:12] <Dashiva> So it was added, removed and then re-added? Quirky
  678. # [21:13] <Lachy> Hixie, ok. I'll keep that in mind. I'm rewriting it as clearly as I possibly can so that there can be absolutely no confusion about what I mean
  679. # [21:13] <webben> Lachy: FWIW I agree that your proposed study would be a very good addition to information collected so far, though I don't think studies of this (human-tech interactions) sort tend to produce "irrefutable" results.
  680. # [21:13] <Lachy> webben, ok, fair enough.
  681. # [21:14] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Remote closed the connection)
  682. # [21:14] <Hixie> Philip`: then you just respond "well then you wouldn't object to a study would you"
  683. # [21:14] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  684. # [21:14] <Hixie> studies never provide irrefutable results
  685. # [21:14] <Lachy> webben, my point was that the results would take us from having only observation and hypothesis closer to having a theory
  686. # [21:14] <Hixie> they can always be refuted by more studies that contradict them
  687. # [21:14] <webben> Hixie: Absolutely. It's not my word.
  688. # [21:15] <Philip`> Hixie: They should object to resources being spent on that study instead of on something more interesting and informative and insightful
  689. # [21:16] * Joins: kingryan (n=ryan@c-24-5-77-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  690. # [21:19] <hsivonen> does IE support adding methods to Element prototype?
  691. # [21:19] <Hixie> as i understand it IE doesn't have prototypes
  692. # [21:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: IIRC, it does have for objects that don't count as host objects
  693. # [21:20] <hsivonen> like Array.prototype
  694. # [21:20] <webben> Lachy: I think a useful addition to your proposed study would be to try and work out, if there's a difference, why.
  695. # [21:20] <hsivonen> I know this stuff is not supported for ActiveX-based XHR DOM nodes
  696. # [21:20] <hsivonen> I guess I should just test
  697. # [21:21] <Lachy> webben, any suggestion how?
  698. # [21:21] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  699. # [21:21] <webben> Lachy: well, qualitative observation during the process and asking people at the end would help I guess.
  700. # [21:21] <Hixie> hsivonen: right i mean for host objects
  701. # [21:21] <Lachy> ok
  702. # [21:22] <Hixie> hsivonen: i take it your validator instance wouldn't be able to handle the load of a google blog pointing at it?
  703. # [21:22] <hallvord> hsivonen: AFAIK Element.prototype and friends is coming in the very latest beta of IE8
  704. # [21:22] <hallvord> ..well, should have used past tense: came .. thing is I haven't tested it yet :)
  705. # [21:23] <webben> Lachy: e.g. this might uncover whether (for example) people don't use longdesc because they don't expect it to work because of bad UA implementation (as with the guy in Joshue's video) or whether (for example) they miss the description link because of their navigation strategy.
  706. # [21:23] <Hixie> hallvord: really? wow
  707. # [21:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: it probably wouldn't handle it :-(
  708. # [21:23] <Hixie> k
  709. # [21:23] <webben> Hixie: Couldn't Google host an instance of it (if that were okay with hsivonen)?
  710. # [21:24] <hsivonen> it would be interesting to see how badly it would melt down, though :-)
  711. # [21:25] <Hixie> webben: hsivonen might be able to port it to appengine, i don't know
  712. # [21:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: if you had appengine for Java...
  713. # [21:25] <hsivonen> which I suspect Google already has internally for deploying its own Java-based apps
  714. # [21:26] <Hixie> i don't think we've deployed any java-based apps on appengine
  715. # [21:26] <Hixie> i don't know what the plan is for that team, either, so i don't even know if java is on the cards :-)
  716. # [21:26] <hsivonen> Validator.nu is well-suited for scaling on an infrastructure that replicates the app automatically
  717. # [21:27] <hsivonen> after all, it doesn't need write storage except for logs
  718. # [21:27] <hsivonen> and it doesn't need a login mechanism
  719. # [21:28] <hsivonen> so it could be put on a cloud computing platform without the usual BigTable or Amazon SimpleDB lock-in issues
  720. # [21:28] <hsivonen> it does have the issue that it wants to do *a lot* of initialization up front to build read-only data structures that are shared among threads
  721. # [21:29] <hsivonen> I figured that Validator.nu on a usual day requires less CPU and RAM than one EC2 compute unit provides
  722. # [21:30] <hsivonen> so currently, it doesn't make sense to invest in automatic scaling on EC2
  723. # [21:31] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@163.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
  724. # [21:31] <hsivonen> hallvord: thanks.
  725. # [21:32] <hsivonen> I'm trying to come up with a way to route setAttributeNS calls to something else in IE without imposing a per-call cost on other browsers
  726. # [21:33] <hsivonen> Hixie: I've been speculating about what's next for App Engine
  727. # [21:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: and since Google has a small set of supported languages, Java is the obvious runner up after Python
  728. # [21:34] <Hixie> that does seem like a good guess
  729. # [21:34] <Hixie> (i really don't know what that team is doing)
  730. # [21:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: but I figured providing App Engine for Java would need new restrictions on the VM
  731. # [21:34] <hsivonen> and probably a class loading model that isn't transparently compatible with a normal JVM
  732. # [21:35] <smedero> mostly unrelated but there's a 20% project going to get Perl into App Engine... so there's a chance that Java could be a 20% as well.
  733. # [21:35] <hsivonen> but I wouldn't be too surprised if Google hacked up yet another environment that uses the Java language without the full JVM runtime semantics
  734. # [21:38] <hallvord> hsivonen: see
  735. # [21:38] <hallvord> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/internet-explorer/beta/readiness/developers-new.aspx#mutabledom
  736. # [21:38] <hallvord> http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2008/09/ie8b2_roundup.html
  737. # [21:38] <hsivonen> smedero: I'd expect Java to require more drastic VM hacking than Perl
  738. # [21:38] <smedero> indeed.
  739. # [21:38] <hsivonen> hallvord: thanks
  740. # [21:41] <Hixie> "comments are HTMLCommentElement interfaces and inherit from Element" lol
  741. # [21:42] <Hixie> "Early on, we had to decide if we wanted to implement a "fake" layer for the constructor/prototype objects that looked identical to the W3C model, or to expose what we had, warts and all."
  742. # [21:42] <Hixie> ...and they picked the warts... because of their commitment to standards?
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  744. # [21:43] <hsivonen> "Object doesn't support this property or method"
  745. # [21:43] <hsivonen> sigh
  746. # [21:43] <hsivonen> I'd appreciate it if IE said which property
  747. # [21:44] <Hixie> this one
  748. # [21:44] <Hixie> duh
  749. # [21:47] <hsivonen> anyway, I think this HTML5 parsing thing can be programmed on top of IE eventually, although I'm failing ATM
  750. # [21:47] <hsivonen> my proof of concept does work: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/ie-namespaces.html
  751. # [21:47] <hsivonen> now if WebKit rendered dynamically inserted SVG...
  752. # [21:49] <webben> hsivonen: What are you trying to do exactly?
  753. # [21:49] <webben> implement a HTML5 parser as an activex control?
  754. # [21:50] <hsivonen> webben: I'm trying to emulate createElementNS for MathML and SVG namespaces in IE7+MathPlayer+Renesis
  755. # [21:50] <hsivonen> webben: so that the Validator.nu HTML Parser when compiled with GWT could work in IE as well
  756. # [21:51] <webben> ah okay
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  765. # [22:44] <hsivonen> reloading my test page crashes IE7
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  770. # [22:58] <zcorpan> hsivonen: iirc, attributes can't be namespaced in ie, though i don't know how the plugins handle it
  771. # [22:58] <Lachy> Hixie, webben yt?
  772. # [22:59] <Lachy> Hixie, webben, anyone else, could you review this before I send it? http://lachy.id.au/temp/study.txt
  773. # [23:03] <webben> Lachy: I think the distinction between a user agent requiring users to change their configuration to be aware of long descriptions (e.g. earlier versions of JAWS) and announcing them by default (e.g. current JAWS 10 Beta on reading, iCab on hover) is significant.
  774. # [23:04] <webben> although I realize John only says "natively support" in the quote.
  775. # [23:05] <Lachy> webben, I wasn't aware of that. What should I say about it?
  776. # [23:07] <webben> Lachy: I guess a prelude to this study would need to be some sort of agreement about what a decent implementation of longdesc might do and whether any current implementations do it.
  777. # [23:07] <webben> If none do, you'd need to introduce an test implementation that does (e.g. by hacking NVDA perhaps).
  778. # [23:07] <Lachy> I was just going to have the test run with each user's normal software and setup, to make it as realistic as possible
  779. # [23:08] <webben> realistic to what?
  780. # [23:10] <Lachy> to the way they use it use it normally
  781. # [23:10] <Lachy> it would be a bit unfair to have the test performed by a user who is unfamiliar with the software being used
  782. # [23:11] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.172)
  783. # [23:11] <webben> Lachy: I agree that it introduces other complications. But I don't think a test of bad implementations would tell one much about the actual point at issue (at least from my understanding of the point at issue).
  784. # [23:12] <webben> Lachy: So I guess I'm saying you _might_ have to take software users are familiar with and modify it somewhat.
  785. # [23:12] <webben> I'm not saying: make a brand new screen reader or browser or something ;)
  786. # [23:14] <Lachy> I don't like that idea, because that would require informing the user of what changes have been made, which would bias the results due to having additional information about the test that they would not otherwise have
  787. # [23:15] <webben> Lachy: Hmm. Couldn't you tell them that you've modified it but not tell them how?
  788. # [23:15] <Lachy> in what way would you want to modify it?
  789. # [23:15] <webben> for that matter, actually, what's wrong with them knowing about the feature?
  790. # [23:16] <webben> otherwise you're not just testing whether the feature can do a given task, but also the initial intuitiveness of the feature's presentation, which could bias the study in both directions
  791. # [23:17] <Lachy> because if the users didn't know about the longdesc before hand, and are supposedly representative of the general population, then informing them about the feature would influence the result
  792. # [23:17] <webben> e.g. people might think, hmm, what's this long description thing, must try that. or people might think, hmm, dunno what that is, better not try that.
  793. # [23:18] <webben> yes, but you're not trying to test people's knowledge of features, as far as I can tell.
  794. # [23:18] <Lachy> I'm trying to test how useful a feature is in practice given the current, near the top of the range ATs
  795. # [23:19] <webben> okay, but that's not the actual point being debated.
  796. # [23:20] <webben> Lachy: again, that's basically testing implementations not the concept.
  797. # [23:22] <Lachy> hmm. ok. So then we would have to set a baseline for the ATs that can be used.
  798. # [23:22] <webben> Lachy: yeah, exactly, it very much depends on working out what a "good" implementation would do.
  799. # [23:23] <webben> which isn't necessarily trivial.
  800. # [23:23] <Lachy> fair enough. I suppose that's fair given how we would test the proposed headers algorithm
  801. # [23:23] <Lachy> which would need modified UAs/ATs to do it
  802. # [23:23] <webben> that is to say, it's easy to distinguish very bad from better implementations, but hard to distinguish very good from better implementations.
  803. # [23:24] <webben> e.g. Firefox native longdesc implementation is pants. the longdesc firefox add-on clearly improves it.
  804. # [23:24] <webben> iCab is an improvement again (because of the on-hover indicator).
  805. # [23:25] <webben> - that's for sighted users.
  806. # [23:25] <webben> I'm pretty sure that defaulting to announcing longdesc is "better" than defaulting to not announcing it.
  807. # [23:27] <Lachy> I added a paragraph saying "We need to set a set of baseline feature requirements for the assistive technologies that can be used. I'll leave this for those who are more familiar with them,"
  808. # [23:30] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.172)
  809. # [23:32] * aboodman3 is now known as aboodman
  810. # [23:34] <Lachy> I sent it
  811. # [23:36] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.172)
  812. # [23:43] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-b179464eaa5fb79c)
  813. # [23:44] <annevk> 'Jonas Jacobi, Kaazing’s CEO, will be delivering a three day course through Kaazing’s partnership with SkillsMatter in London on October 6th, 2008. The course is entitled “Comet Evolved: HTML 5 Web Sockts & Server-Sent Events.”' -- http://thepeninsulasedge.com/blog/?p=156
  814. # [23:44] <annevk> for features with no browser implementations, that's pretty impressive
  815. # [23:49] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c-cb21e353.1451-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote closed the connection)
  816. # [23:52] <annevk> hsivonen, http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/12/13/MegaXML (credit: tag)
  817. # [23:58] * Quits: roc_ (n=roc@121-72-184-5.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  818. # Session Close: Sat Sep 06 00:00:00 2008

The end :)