/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-09-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Sep 08 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <Dashiva> You could see it as marketing. You get things done a lot easier by saying "You want this (and that way I get it too)" than just "I want this" :)
  4. # [00:01] <Hixie> Lachy: it actually _is_ the pipes screen saver (re your blog)
  5. # [00:01] <webben_> yeah, I'm not terribly impressed by the universalism school of accessibility marketing.
  6. # [00:02] <webben_> tends to lead to lots of effort spent making things work without JS and on old/broken browsers, and less attention to making things work for actual people.
  7. # [00:02] <webben_> (not that interoperability isn't a perfectly nice goal in its own right and all)
  8. # [00:03] <Dashiva> Take a cat herder view of our mandate, and things start to make sense :)
  9. # [00:05] <annevk> geez, >1000 log lines
  10. # [00:05] <annevk> longdesc spam?
  11. # [00:05] <Dashiva> This channel?
  12. # [00:05] <Dashiva> Mostly, yes
  13. # [00:05] * annevk sighs
  14. # [00:05] <Dashiva> zcorpan talked some about dom core
  15. # [00:06] <Philip`> There might be some rubbish jokes in the log too
  16. # [00:06] <webben_> hixie talked about form and input stuff too
  17. # [00:06] <annevk> Philip`, I filter your lines :p
  18. # [00:07] <Dashiva> Maybe we need IRC threading
  19. # [00:07] <annevk> Philip`, I'll put the trackerlib update on html5
  20. # [00:07] <Dashiva> There are experimental bots that do it, I hear
  21. # [00:07] <csarven> Or simply #tag a few lines!
  22. # [00:07] <csarven> That could let the reader scan the log lines for certain conversations.
  23. # [00:08] <webben_> @longdesc bla bla bla :)
  24. # [00:08] <webben_> or maybe "re longdesc bla bla bla"
  25. # [00:08] <Dashiva> csarven: Just search for \blongdesc\b or \balt\b and you've got your tags ;)
  26. # [00:08] <csarven> #readability #irc #logs
  27. # [00:08] <annevk> meanwhile, 1 person so far generated a diff with a different context (and maybe more people used it afterwards)
  28. # [00:09] <csarven> Dashiva I said "scan"ing the logs, not read every line ;)
  29. # [00:12] <annevk> zcorpan, why does getElementsByTagNameNS not throw?
  30. # [00:17] <annevk> Philip`, done
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  32. # [00:23] <Philip`> annevk: You probably want to sanitise the 'source' variable, instead of passing user input directly to the shell via popen
  33. # [00:24] <annevk> Philip`, how is source user input?
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  35. # [00:25] <annevk> hmm, I thought I killed that feature
  36. # [00:26] <Philip`> annevk: html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?source=|shell%20code| etc
  37. # [00:27] <annevk> killed
  38. # [00:28] <Philip`> Thanks :-)
  39. # [00:29] <annevk> Hixie, btw, svn log is still being hit; hopefully not intensive enough for it to be a problem, but if that turns out to be a problem as well let me know and I'll start caching that too
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  42. # [00:37] <annevk> (svn complains about googlecode not having the right certificate)
  43. # [00:39] <Lachy> Hixie, do you mean that Google Chrome actually loads and executes the real sspipes.scr, or does it just emulate it somehow?
  44. # [00:40] <annevk> it loads and executes the real sspipes.scr
  45. # [00:40] <annevk> see blogs
  46. # [00:41] <Philip`> Lachy: http://src.chromium.org/svn/trunk/src/chrome/browser/about_internets_status_view.cc
  47. # [00:42] <Lachy> oh, cool. that mean it will also get the teapots :-)
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  49. # [00:45] <annevk> zcorpan, it's complete mystery to me how createElementNS arrives at localName
  50. # [00:49] <annevk> zcorpan, getElementById should return the first element matching ID, I think
  51. # [00:49] <annevk> zcorpan, not just any
  52. # [00:49] * annevk thinks zcorpan scans the backlog
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  58. # [01:36] <annevk> Hixie, in Web Forms 2.0 the form="" attribute is a set of IDs
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  72. # [03:59] <faithfulgeek> so I'm currently reading O'Reilly's book on RESTful Web Services, curious if URI Templating is still being considered for HTML 5
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  75. # [04:00] <takkaria> I don't think it is
  76. # [04:01] <faithfulgeek> :( that was pretty exciting
  77. # [04:01] <takkaria> though I'm not quite sure what about URI templates HTML5 would be using
  78. # [04:02] <faithfulgeek> according to the book I'm reading, it was for forms
  79. # [04:02] <faithfulgeek> so you could say: <form action="..." template="something/{variable}"><input type="text" name="variable" /></form>
  80. # [04:04] <takkaria> I'm not sure where that was proposed, but it doesn't appear to be in Web Forms 2
  81. # [04:04] <faithfulgeek> http://blog.whatwg.org/proposing-uri-templates-for-webforms-20
  82. # [04:05] <takkaria> the likelihood of it being in HTML5 I would imagine is vanishing
  83. # [04:09] <faithfulgeek> thanks for the info
  84. # [04:09] <faithfulgeek> it looks like they're still supporting put and delete as methods though, that's good to see!
  85. # [04:11] <takkaria> the Web Forms 2 spec is now being incorporated into HTML5
  86. # [04:11] <takkaria> so with any luck, non-Opera browsers might start implementing bits of it fairly soon :)
  87. # [04:11] <faithfulgeek> awesome
  88. # [04:12] <faithfulgeek> i'm preparing a presentation on REST services, and reading a book on it now, however the author is using a number of examples based on the proposed specs of 5 when it was written
  89. # [04:12] <faithfulgeek> so I'm trying to find out what's still valid and what's not
  90. # [04:13] <takkaria> well, the spec is the best place to look :) though as I say, the forms section is still very much in progress
  91. # [04:13] <faithfulgeek> cool, thanks takkaria!
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  148. # [08:38] <Hixie> annevk: yeah the multiple id thing was dropped, see irc a few days ago
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  160. # [10:21] <zcorpan_> annevk: why should getElementsByTagNameNS throw?
  161. # [10:22] <zcorpan_> annevk: i thought implementors didn't want to guarentee which element is returned because it allowed for optimization
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  163. # [10:24] <zcorpan_> annevk: is step 3 unclear in createElementNS? i guess i need to specify what it means similar to how html5 defines "split on spaces"
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  165. # [10:26] <annevk> zcorpan_, step 2 already talks about localName
  166. # [10:27] <annevk> zcorpan_, it does not throw now if you use a tagName of ">" or something?
  167. # [10:27] <annevk> zcorpan_, as for getElementById, I heard different arguments on that
  168. # [10:27] <zcorpan_> annevk: oops, that should be qualifiedName
  169. # [10:27] <annevk> Hixie, it would be good to still split on spaces then, to allow for extensibility
  170. # [10:28] <zcorpan_> annevk: getElementsByTagNameNS('>') does not throw no
  171. # [10:29] <annevk> k
  172. # [10:32] <annevk> zcorpan_, I think Opera and Safari at least always return the first
  173. # [10:32] <annevk> zcorpan_, and Maciej said he'd like that to be specified
  174. # [10:32] <othermaciej> getElementById?
  175. # [10:32] <othermaciej> yeah I think that should be spec'd
  176. # [10:33] <othermaciej> I think you have to return first or at least something very close to it for web compat
  177. # [10:35] <roc> you mean return the first element in the document with a given ID?
  178. # [10:35] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2007Jan/thread.html#msg118
  179. # [10:35] <roc> Yeah, that's necessary for Web compat
  180. # [10:35] <roc> if you don't always return the first in the document, Amazon breaks
  181. # [10:35] <annevk> I'm told Gecko sometimes does something differently when mutations are evolved
  182. # [10:35] <roc> that's not true anymore
  183. # [10:35] <annevk> s/evolved/involved/
  184. # [10:36] <annevk> cool
  185. # [10:36] <roc> I seem to recall having this discussion a few months ago
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  187. # [10:38] <othermaciej> I recall this as well
  188. # [10:38] <annevk> me too, though I'm not sure the above URL is that discussion
  189. # [10:39] <annevk> anyways, zcorpan_ didn't spec it as such, which is why we're having it again :)
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  191. # [10:40] <hsivonen> hmm. the test results at http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/longdesc.html no longer match I8b2
  192. # [10:40] <hsivonen> IE8b2
  193. # [10:42] <zcorpan_> ok, fixed getElementById
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  196. # [10:45] <annevk> zcorpan_, qualifiedName should not match NCName as then it can't contain a ":"
  197. # [10:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: is there any scenario where black box testing could distinguish between the tree builder managing text node coalescing in using an internal buffer and late-inserting text nodes and early-inserting text nodes and appending to them while in the tree?
  198. # [10:46] <hsivonen> s/in using/using/
  199. # [10:46] <zcorpan_> annevk: good point
  200. # [10:46] <zcorpan_> fixed
  201. # [10:47] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: i guess you could have a setInterval that inspects the text node
  202. # [10:48] <annevk> zcorpan_, might be better to use QName instead of Name ?
  203. # [10:49] <zcorpan_> annevk: QName is NCName | PrefixedName
  204. # [10:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: ah. I hadn't thought of that
  205. # [10:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: however, the spec doesn't specify when the parser has to yield to let timeouts and intervals run
  206. # [10:49] <annevk> zcorpan_, yeah, so checking for that instead of Name and PrefixedName is a) less confusing and b) shorter
  207. # [10:50] <hsivonen> so one could just pretend that when the parser yields, it hasn't seen the text at all yet
  208. # [10:50] <zcorpan_> annevk: but it should throw different exceptions (or well it does now)
  209. # [10:50] <zcorpan_> annevk: i'm considering dropping error checking altogether
  210. # [10:51] <hsivonen> as far as I can tell, the parser only needs to yield when it sees a </script> end tag
  211. # [10:51] <hsivonen> and otherwise, yielding is up to the implementation
  212. # [10:51] <hsivonen> which makes me wonder if Web compat requires some level of discretionary yielding
  213. # [10:52] <zcorpan_> there are libraries that poll the dom every X ms for an element
  214. # [10:52] <annevk> zcorpan_, I see, woefully over engineered
  215. # [10:52] <zcorpan_> annevk: indeed
  216. # [10:52] <zcorpan_> annevk: it's because namespaces are optional in dom3 core
  217. # [10:53] <zcorpan_> right now i just want to spec how things work
  218. # [10:53] <annevk> ok, well, keep notes :)
  219. # [10:54] <zcorpan_> i am :)
  220. # [10:54] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: is the compat requirement that parser must yield every Y ms or is the compate requirement that whenever the parser yields for the CSS formatter, intervals must fire, too?
  221. # [10:54] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: don't know
  222. # [10:55] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: for the library point of view it just wants to get the element as soon as it's available
  223. # [10:55] <hsivonen> ok. I guess I should check if Hixie has already specced this
  224. # [10:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: yeah, but is it only to keep up with layout?
  225. # [10:56] <hsivonen> is there any way to opt in to getting mutation events for parser-initiated insertions?
  226. # [10:56] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: no i think it's mainly to have e.g. buttons do something before the page has finished loading
  227. # [10:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: isn't that keeping up with layout?
  228. # [10:57] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: i guess
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  233. # [11:12] <hsivonen> in Gecko, the yielding from the parser depends on the user event queue
  234. # [11:14] <virtuelv> hsivonen: You're aware that you have a doppelganger here in Oslo
  235. # [11:15] <virtuelv> I got a bit freaked out when he got of at the bus stop next to Opera
  236. # [11:16] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-253290467c1369f7)
  237. # [11:17] <hsivonen> virtuelv: I wasn't aware
  238. # [11:18] <virtuelv> He was so similar I tried to say hi to him
  239. # [11:18] <virtuelv> at which point he looked at me as if I was a loonie
  240. # [11:22] <annevk> heh, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=243519 is fixed
  241. # [11:22] <annevk> I think this means I can simplify my CSS when Firefox 3.1 is reasonably deployed
  242. # [11:25] <roc> don't speak too soon, it already bounced out of the tree once :-)
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  260. # [12:21] <Philip`> Ooh, I found a null pointer dereference vulnerability in Google Chrome
  261. # [12:21] <Philip`> <a href="about:crash">Click me for free puppies!</a>
  262. # [12:22] <Philip`> I don't know how they didn't catch that problem
  263. # [12:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: am I right that reconstructing the list of active formatting elements is always a no-op when that step is hit in foreign content?
  264. # [12:24] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-253290467c1369f7) (Connection timed out)
  265. # [12:26] <hsivonen> can the tree builder ever be in foreign content without the secondary insertion mode being 'in body', 'in cell' or 'in caption'?
  266. # [12:30] <annevk> in table seems to allow for it too, though it depends on whether foster parenting changes the insertion mode
  267. # [12:32] <hsivonen> ah. ok. for the optimization I had in mind, that suggests I should indeed only check for those modes and not for foreignness
  268. # [12:33] <annevk> seems foster parenting doesn't affect the insertion mode
  269. # [12:41] <Lachy> Philip`, I don't see the bug. When I click a link to about:crash in Chrome, it takes me to about:blank
  270. # [12:43] <Lachy> Philip`, it seems to do the same thing with all the other about: URIs too
  271. # [12:43] <Philip`> Oh :-(
  272. # [12:43] * Philip` didn't actually test it
  273. # [12:44] <annevk> supposedly <a href="foo:%">x</a> or something should crash it
  274. # [12:45] <annevk> (the whole browser)
  275. # [12:48] <Philip`> That just makes it ask me about starting an external application to handle foo
  276. # [12:48] * hsivonen tries to figure if the "Any other end tag" algorithm for 'in body' simplifies significantly on the implied </option>
  277. # [12:50] <takkaria> hsivonen: what optimisation are you thinking of doing?
  278. # [12:51] <hsivonen> takkaria: not searching runs of characters for spaces in certain insertion modes
  279. # [12:53] <hsivonen> takkaria: have you checked if "any other end tag" simplifies on "</option>"?
  280. # [12:54] <takkaria> no, I've not tried optimising the treebuilder at all in Hubbub yet
  281. # [12:56] <annevk> Philip`, href="fo%:x" then?
  282. # [12:56] <annevk> maybe it's patched already
  283. # [12:57] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  284. # [12:57] <othermaciej> some funny url thing with %s would take down the whole browser
  285. # [12:57] <othermaciej> not sure if they fixed it
  286. # [12:58] <othermaciej> (I do not believe the webkit.org version of WebKit ever had this vulnerability
  287. # [12:58] <othermaciej> )
  288. # [12:58] * Quits: webben_ (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-291744ee2add17a7)
  289. # [12:58] <annevk> Safari had a unknown protocol vulnerability on Windows, but a different one
  290. # [12:59] <annevk> (I don't think the %-thing is a security issue though.)
  291. # [12:59] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-d235b4c3ede1c899)
  292. # [13:00] <Philip`> Someone says ctrl+l then ":%" crashes, but it works fine for me
  293. # [13:00] <Philip`> and I hope Google hasn't been automatically downloading patches to my computer without telling me about it
  294. # [13:01] <hsivonen> takkaria: at least one check simpliefies away
  295. # [13:03] <Philip`> Oh, okay, it looks like they have been downloading patches automatically without telling me
  296. # [13:03] <Philip`> since the UA version has gone from 0.2.149.27 to 0.2.149.29
  297. # [13:04] <takkaria> hsivonen: I'll be keeping an eye on your SVN logs for optimisations to steal :)
  298. # [13:07] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-d235b4c3ede1c899)
  299. # [13:07] <hsivonen> Philip`: do new tabs start a new engine version while the browser is still running?
  300. # [13:07] <Philip`> hsivonen: No idea
  301. # [13:08] <Philip`> That would be crazy, but neat :-)
  302. # [13:09] <hsivonen> because for security updates, the user should either be prompted to restart the browser ASAP or the fix should be hot-applicable
  303. # [13:09] <hsivonen> so if they aren't prompting...
  304. # [13:12] <Philip`> At least on Vista, Chrome seems to install itself in per-user directories rather than the proper global applications directory, so you don't get UAC prompts when something is trying to update its files, which seems good for usability but bad for security
  305. # [13:14] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  306. # [13:19] <hsivonen> takkaria: do you have a mechanism for dropping the initial LF in textarea and pre without having a per-token memory access cost?
  307. # [13:19] <hsivonen> I just have a naive needToDropLF which is written to very often
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  333. # [15:27] * gsnedders has Safari crash half way through commenting on annevk's blog
  334. # [15:28] <annevk> yay
  335. # [15:28] * hsivonen wonders if Parallels leaks "video memory" of the virtual machine
  336. # [15:28] * Retrieving #whatwg modes...
  337. # [15:29] <annevk> I have this illusion that Hixie's and my blog are of a rare breed of blogs that end up in browser bug databases
  338. # [15:29] <gsnedders> Mine was in the IE8 one
  339. # [15:30] <hsivonen> text-shadow and @font-face need graphics layer integration and Chrome has a different graphics layer
  340. # [15:31] <hsivonen> <video> and <audio> in Safari use QuickTime
  341. # [15:31] <hsivonen> so it makes sense that those features would not work up front
  342. # [15:31] <gsnedders> SQL is likely disabled 'cos it'll be globalStorage in that branch of WebKi
  343. # [15:31] <gsnedders> *WebKit
  344. # [15:32] <hsivonen> btw, what does Chrome do about sharing the HTTP cache between processes?
  345. # [15:32] <annevk> hsivonen, if that's in response to my post, I did point that out
  346. # [15:32] <gsnedders> annevk: That was basically what I was trying to write
  347. # [15:33] <hsivonen> annevk: you didn't mention specifics :-)
  348. # [15:33] <hsivonen> anyway, Google has to have a plan for <video>
  349. # [15:33] <hsivonen> it'll be interesting to see what it is
  350. # [15:33] <hsivonen> will they use OpenCORE instead of DirectShow on Windows?
  351. # [15:33] <hsivonen> something different?
  352. # [15:34] <gsnedders> On the whole I expect they'll use DirectShow/QT/GStreamer
  353. # [15:34] * hsivonen still hasn't seen an explanation of the OpenCORE MPEG-LA story for Android
  354. # [15:34] <annevk> hsivonen, fair enough :)
  355. # [15:35] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I expect the company selling/distributing it has to pay the patent fees, so unofficial builds can't have support
  356. # [15:40] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@80.76.201.52)
  357. # [15:41] <hsivonen> gsnedders: if it will work like that, it seems that the Apache license then has a whole in its patent language through which someone can introduce royalty-bearing technology as long as the royalty collector is structured as a separate entity
  358. # [15:41] <gsnedders> hsivonen: The Apache License only covers those held by those who wrote the code.
  359. # [15:41] <gsnedders> hsivonen: It has no bearing on any other.
  360. # [15:41] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.126.206) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  362. # [15:42] <hsivonen> s/whole/hole/
  363. # [15:43] <hsivonen> it's scary when one starts making speech recognition-style errors when typing
  364. # [15:43] <BenMillard> hsivonen, I think it's quite natural. don't worry about it :)
  365. # [15:44] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Thx for dealing with the hotel BTW
  366. # [15:44] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Nice you shoving me and smedero in one room :P
  367. # [15:46] <BenMillard> gsnedders, well you two were gonna share anyway, so it made sense to me.
  368. # [15:46] <BenMillard> also, I need somewhere to retreat to after pwning you all at GT :D
  369. # [15:47] <gsnedders> BenMillard: You won't pwn me!
  370. # [15:47] <gsnedders> :P
  371. # [15:47] <gsnedders> BenMillard: You may win, but I doubt by much, unless I make a big mistake (rare)
  372. # [15:47] <BenMillard> gsnedders, to be honest I'll just be playing for fun. :)
  373. # [15:47] <BenMillard> I often make big mistakes...consistency is the part I suck at
  374. # [15:48] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Well you're the one making it competitive :)
  375. # [15:48] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Want to race around the Nürburgring? :P
  376. # [15:48] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Know the track?
  377. # [15:48] <BenMillard> gsnedders, I know and am faster than the AI on all the tracks from GT up to and including GT4.
  378. # [15:49] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Beating the AI isn't hard
  379. # [15:49] <BenMillard> so I won't be a noob, but I'm not pr0 either
  380. # [15:49] <BenMillard> gsnedders, I think we should start with Fuji Speedway 2005 because of the run-off areas.
  381. # [15:49] <gsnedders> BenMillard: I tend to, within Forza 2, be within the top thousand times around each track. Fear.
  382. # [15:50] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Peh! There's no damage model!
  383. # [15:50] <gsnedders> BenMillard: The Circuit de la Sarthe is fine too
  384. # [15:51] <Philip`> Hmm, is 8MB/s reasonable Validator.nu SAX parser performance?
  385. # [15:51] <gsnedders> BenMillard: The hard corners have plenty of run-off
  386. # [15:51] <BenMillard> gsnedders, Fuji has tarmac run-off so mistakes in 2-player will cost you some time, but won't be race over.
  387. # [15:52] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Peh! Mistakes should kill you! :P
  388. # [15:52] <Philip`> If I do it multicoredly then I can parse about a thousand pages per second, which I guess is okay
  389. # [15:52] <hsivonen> Philip`: is that tree-buffered or streaming?
  390. # [15:53] <Philip`> hsivonen: I think buffered, since I'm using XmlViolationPolicy.ALLOW
  391. # [15:53] <BenMillard> gsnedders, I'd like us to use a range of cars and tracks. Short courses like Autumn Ring Mini and Grand Valley East Section with Nissan mm-R Cup Car, for example.
  392. # [15:54] <gsnedders> BenMillard: I much prefer the Autumn Ring to the "mini"
  393. # [15:55] <BenMillard> gsnedders, it's a bit long for the mm-R but in 2P I guess it'll still be fun. :)
  394. # [15:55] <gsnedders> BenMillard: I can't really remember the cars
  395. # [15:55] <gsnedders> BenMillard: I'll need to practice
  396. # [15:56] * Philip` is getting the input through a GZIPInputStream, which seems to compress things to ~20%, so a thousand pages a second is ~5MB/s, so hopefully his disk won't be a severe bottleneck
  397. # [15:56] <BenMillard> gsnedders, having spent several months in GT3 with all driver aids off, I've been trying the same in GT4. Takes a while to get used to but I love it now.
  398. # [15:56] * gsnedders is actually in large debate trying to draw up the deliberations of the National Youth Assembly of the Church of Scotland 2008
  399. # [15:57] <BenMillard> gsnedders, you have to turn them off in the Settings for *each* car though, which SUCKS.
  400. # [15:59] <hsivonen> I don't understand the point of David Poehlman's reply to me
  401. # [16:00] <hsivonen> Isn't it an *incredibly* bad idea for a blind person to get a computer without audio out (unless the person is *also* deaf)?
  402. # [16:01] <BenMillard> hsivonen, if they can operate a PC exclusively through Braille output then it would work, I imagine.
  403. # [16:02] <BenMillard> (and conventional or Braille-labelled keyboard input)
  404. # [16:02] <wilhelm> hsivonen: http://www.blindeforbundet.no/nbf/publikasjoner/brosjyrer/teksthefte/Leselist.jpg
  405. # [16:03] <wilhelm> Works fine without audio.
  406. # [16:04] <hsivonen> BenMillard, wilhelm: sure Braille displays exist, but it still seems like a bad idea to not have audio capability in hardware
  407. # [16:05] <hsivonen> If a person is not deaf but just somehow managed to get hardware without audio output capability, that's not an accessibility issue
  408. # [16:08] * Joins: smedero (n=smedero@mdp-nat251.mdp.com)
  409. # [16:13] <webben> hsivonen: Agreed. Choice of hardware is a output media independence issue, but not intrinsically an accessibility issue.
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  412. # [16:27] <zcorpan> i don't like dom's error checking at all
  413. # [16:28] <zcorpan> it checks for some things but not others and the things it checks sometimes don't match what xml requires anyway
  414. # [16:28] <hsivonen> It'll be interesting to see if Safari will next spoof as Chrome and if they will start having authoritative=really-Chrome and authoritative=really-Safari
  415. # [16:28] <zcorpan> and you can smuggle in stuff from other documents without checking anyway
  416. # [16:29] <zcorpan> the questions are
  417. # [16:30] <zcorpan> is there a reason why we can't drop all error checking
  418. # [16:30] <zcorpan> and
  419. # [16:30] <zcorpan> if we do, do we need to make createElement('<div>') or createElement('<div foo="bar">') do something magic
  420. # [16:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan: does IE implement full attribute tokenization for those?
  421. # [16:31] <zcorpan> hsivonen: afaict yeah
  422. # [16:31] <zcorpan> hsivonen: though i haven't tested much
  423. # [16:33] <zcorpan> document.createElement('<x y z=a x x y u>'); works as you'd expect
  424. # [16:34] <Philip`> Seems to trigger iff the first character is '<'
  425. # [16:37] <hsivonen> what if the string tokenizes to multiple tags?
  426. # [16:37] <hsivonen> what if it tokenizes to and end tag?
  427. # [16:37] <hsivonen> what about "<>"?
  428. # [16:37] <annevk> I'd rather throw an error if the first char is "<" than implementing some small start tag tokenizer just for createElement
  429. # [16:37] <hsivonen> or something else that doesn't tokenize to a start tag
  430. # [16:37] <Philip`> It ignores everything after the first '>'
  431. # [16:38] <hsivonen> annevk: presumably, one could reuse the real tokenizer
  432. # [16:38] <Philip`> It seems to throw an error if it starts with '</'
  433. # [16:38] <Philip`> (but if e.g. it starts with '<!' then it'll just make an element whose name starts with '!')
  434. # [16:38] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  435. # [16:39] <hsivonen> although it would probably lead to code duplication, since in a C++-based browser it could be perf win not to make the tree builder methods virtual
  436. # [16:39] <Philip`> Hmm, if you just have '<>' then it makes an element named '<>'; if you have e.g. '<>x' then it throws an error
  437. # [16:39] <annevk> fail
  438. # [16:40] <hsivonen> sounds like fun
  439. # [16:41] <Philip`> Out of n pages for an unknown value of n, I see one that does document.createElement('<iframe frameborder="0">')
  440. # [16:41] <Philip`> (http://www.movingideas.org/content/en/issue_items/education.htm)
  441. # [16:41] * Joins: jdandrea (n=jdandrea@ool-44c09d7b.dyn.optonline.net)
  442. # [16:42] <Philip`> (n = tens of thousands, I think)
  443. # [16:43] <annevk> zcorpan, btw, I think adoptNode basically becomes a no-op
  444. # [16:46] <takkaria> I think that's quite a cool shortcut :)
  445. # [16:48] * hsivonen continues to be amazed at an XML parser implementation where parseContent and parseElement are mutually recursive and the stack gets deeper as the parse progresses
  446. # [16:49] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.118.86.150)
  447. # [16:50] <Philip`> I suppose it's not even tail recursion?
  448. # [16:50] <hsivonen> Philip`: I didn't check
  449. # [16:50] <hsivonen> Philip`: though IIRC, gcc can optimize tail recursion away in C
  450. # [16:51] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-171-27-224.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  451. # [16:51] <hsivonen> Philip`: so perhaps they feel it's OK to ship code like that in Classpath if GCJ fixes it
  452. # [16:53] * Philip` realises that storing all his page data in a single file is a bad idea since he'd need 8-byte offset pointers to refer to each page
  453. # [16:53] <hsivonen> Philip`: it's not tail recusion AFAICT
  454. # [16:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: I used a .sparseimage
  455. # [16:58] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwebkit.org%2Fperf%2Fsunspider-0.9%2Fcrypto-aes.html doesn't whine about non-ascii
  456. # [16:58] <Philip`> I suppose I should just split the data into chunks, so it's easier to process in parallel
  457. # [16:59] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
  458. # [16:59] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  459. # [17:00] <zcorpan> annevk: doesn't it change ownerDocument?
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  463. # [17:05] <annevk> RB: "At this point Ian, you're plugging your ears and screaming "I can't hear you" when you say something like that. You need to stop acting like a child and step up and participate in this WG and be a real editor."
  464. # [17:06] <annevk> zcorpan, insertNode and all need to do that
  465. # [17:06] <annevk> zcorpan, and insertBefore etc.
  466. # [17:11] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@e180229037.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  467. # [17:11] <zcorpan> annevk: ok
  468. # [17:13] <annevk> though maybe adoptNode should do it too in case people use it and then simply check ownerDocument
  469. # [17:14] <annevk> in any case, adoptNode is pointless
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  472. # [17:14] <zcorpan> wonder if it can be dropped too
  473. # [17:16] <jgraham> RB is teh funny
  474. # [17:17] <takkaria> I like how he calls the permathread "deliberations" myself
  475. # [17:18] <Lachy> LOL! :-D "At this point Ian, you're plugging your ears and screaming "I can't hear you" when you say something like that. You need to stop acting like a child and step up and participate in this WG and be a real editor."
  476. # [17:19] * Philip` tries to steal ideas from Sawzall
  477. # [17:19] <hsivonen> grr. Java TCK is still for JCP participants only
  478. # [17:19] * hsivonen wants unit tests for SortedSet
  479. # [17:25] <annevk> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/chrome-ua/ :/
  480. # [17:26] <Philip`> (It's not 0.2.149.27 any more, since they already updated it to .29)
  481. # [17:27] <hsivonen> Philip`: I started writing the post before the update
  482. # [17:27] <hsivonen> where do Classpath and Harmony keep their unit tests?
  483. # [17:28] <Philip`> "This is the WebKit version from with Chrome branched its copy." - s/with/which/
  484. # [17:29] <hsivonen> Philip`: fixed. tahnks
  485. # [17:31] <BenMillard> hsivonen, perhaps it *is* scary to typo the response to feedback about a typo?
  486. # [17:32] <hsivonen> BenMillard: no, I think the scariness of these cases goes the other way round
  487. # [17:34] <BenMillard> hsivonen, I make typos in all cases...I just try to be brave about it :P
  488. # [17:35] * hsivonen finally finds Harmony TreeSet tester
  489. # [17:35] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p4188-ipbf6103marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  490. # [17:38] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://www.webaim.org/blog/user-agent-string-history/
  491. # [17:44] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-407005b0343a736b)
  492. # [17:46] <annevk> Opera/9.51 (Windows NT 5.1; U; en) is quite nice
  493. # [17:47] <Dashiva> I wonder if anyone checks for the U, ever
  494. # [17:48] <hsivonen> zcorpan: looks like I'm late :-(
  495. # [17:50] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  496. # [17:50] <hsivonen> what was the KHTML version WebKit originally forked from?
  497. # [17:50] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  498. # [17:51] <hsivonen> am I wrong about who put "KHTML" first in the UA string?
  499. # [17:51] <Philip`> The longest in my recent logs is "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 6.0; Trident/4.0; Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1) ; Embedded Web Browser from: http://bsalsa.com/; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR 3.0.04506; .NET CLR 3.5.21022; Zune 2.5; InfoPath.2)"
  500. # [17:52] <BenMillard> fwiw, I've never even worked on a project where user-agent sniffing was used, let alone needed to do it myself.
  501. # [17:52] <BenMillard> nearest I've come is conditional comments for a few IE CSS fixes
  502. # [17:53] <BenMillard> and even that's quite rare
  503. # [17:53] <hsivonen> I'm pretty sure I have the history of the "KHTML" part right and the other author has it wrong
  504. # [17:53] <Philip`> I still sort-of-maintain some code that has a $ENV{HTTP_USER_AGENT} =~ /MSIE 5.*?Mac/ check
  505. # [17:54] <Philip`> since apparently style="filter:shadow(...)" did bad things on that, or something
  506. # [17:54] <hsivonen> according to http://www.useragentstring.com/pages/useragentstring.php?name=Konqueror Konqueror started including "KHTML" only at 3.2 and that release already had code flowing back from Apple
  507. # [17:56] <BenMillard> Philip`, I do use the User-Agent lines reported in my server logs to make general decisions about which browsers to spend time getting the CSS to work properly.
  508. # [17:56] <BenMillard> hence I still support IE6
  509. # [17:57] <Philip`> Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; Konqueror/3.1; Linux 2.4.22-10mdk; X11; i686; fr, fr_FR)
  510. # [17:57] <Philip`> Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; Konqueror/3.1-rc3; i686 Linux; 20020515)
  511. # [17:57] <Philip`> are in my logs, so I guess it looks like 3.1 didn't say "KHTML"
  512. # [17:57] <Lachy> wow, now RB is claiming that "The longdesc attribute is not another linking mechanism."
  513. # [17:58] <Lachy> anyway, he's at the top of my do-not-respond list, so I definitely won't be responding to his nonsense
  514. # [18:00] <BenMillard> Lachy, as planned I've happily returned to my "ignore nearly everything which happens on Public-HTML" mode
  515. # [18:01] <Philip`> I suppose he's saying it's wrong to always think of it like <a href> when it could be processed like <iframe src> instead, which sounds sort of reasonable by itself
  516. # [18:01] <BenMillard> Lachy, it enables me to spend time doing stuff which is useful. :)
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  519. # [18:02] <Lachy> Philip`, the way longdesc is implemented in UAs is exactly like a link, even if they choose to open in a new window by default. No implementation has yet used it to somehow embed the resource within the page itself
  520. # [18:03] <Lachy> although, hypothetically, I suppose they could do that, but then the same argument could be made about href too
  521. # [18:03] <webben> "This attribute specifies a link to a long description of the image".
  522. # [18:03] <webben> yep, it is a "link" of sorts, though no UI is mandated for either
  523. # [18:04] <webben> as you say
  524. # [18:06] <Lachy> BenMillard, ignoring it seems like a good idea. As of this morning, I decided to send no more responses to those longdesc threads
  525. # [18:06] <annevk> that's a bit late dude :p
  526. # [18:07] <BenMillard> webben, according to HTML4: "The alt attribute provides a short description of the image. This should be sufficient to allow users to decide whether they want to follow the link given by the longdesc attribute to the longer description, here 'sitemap.html'." -- http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/objects.html#idx-long_image_description
  527. # [18:07] <Lachy> annevk, yeah, I know. I got sucked into feeding the trolls again :-(
  528. # [18:07] <BenMillard> webben, so HTML4 thinks longdesc is like href and alt is like the content area of <a href>, by my reading.
  529. # [18:08] <webben> for some value of "like href" that's true. they both specify links, namely, although different types of links
  530. # [18:10] <BenMillard> webben, according to HTML4: "The src attribute specifies the initial document the frame will contain." -- http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/frames.html#idx-frame-3
  531. # [18:10] <BenMillard> webben, so HTML4 thinks src immediately loads the resource, whereas it thinks longdesc is fetched on demand.
  532. # [18:11] <BenMillard> (either of those could be changed in HTML5, of course)
  533. # [18:11] <webben> for frames at least.
  534. # [18:12] <webben> BenMillard: Something could be loaded on demand into an img or frame, I guess.
  535. # [18:12] <webben> bit like an img can be selectively enabled in Fx.
  536. # [18:12] * Parts: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
  537. # [18:12] <BenMillard> webben, hey this is weird, <iframe src> links through to <input src> for it's definition of src! (http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/frames.html#edef-IFRAME and http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#adef-src respectively)
  538. # [18:12] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
  539. # [18:13] <BenMillard> webben, I was going by the Index of the HTML4 Attributes, which lists <frame src> as applying to both <frame> and <iframe>: http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/index/attributes.html
  540. # [18:13] <webben> oh noes ... best report it for the all important HTML 4.01 errata ;)
  541. # [18:14] <BenMillard> I think that's called HTML5, isn't it? :P
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  546. # [18:48] <BenMillard> Hixie, I just noticed HTML4 uses bee-keeping in an example here (never noticed that before): http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#edef-TITLE
  547. # [18:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: ASCII whining fixed. thanks.
  548. # [18:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: </p> whining on </dd> fixed. thanks
  549. # [18:53] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  550. # [18:54] <annevk> hsivonen, is there some Web SVN view on Validator.nu progress?
  551. # [18:55] <hsivonen> annevk: there isn't
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  555. # [19:09] * hsivonen cuts source location comparisons when validating cnn.com by 87% by replacing TreeSet with appropriately head and tail biased linked list-backed SortedSet implmentations
  556. # [19:09] <hsivonen> it was rather surpising that location comparisons for Show Source were a hot spot
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  560. # [19:19] <sicking> annevk, Hixie: ping
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  564. # [19:36] * Philip` can now write data to files with an entirely lovely combination of RandomAccessFile and ByteArrayOutputStream and DeflaterOutputStream and cPickle
  565. # [19:37] <Philip`> (It makes me feel a bit dirty :-( )
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  571. # [19:55] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: do you have a regression testing system for v.nu?
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  575. # [20:09] <Hixie> BenMillard: yeah that's where it comes from
  576. # [20:10] <Hixie> sicking: pong, but about to go offline for a bit
  577. # [20:10] <sicking> Hixie, word on the street is that HTML5 says that myHTMLNode.localName should return lower case?
  578. # [20:11] <sicking> Hixie, you sure that's not going to break stuff given that gecko has returned upper case for ages?
  579. # [20:11] <sicking> Hixie, or rather, what do you have to indicate that that won't break stuff :)
  580. # [20:12] <Hixie> webkit returns lowercase
  581. # [20:12] <Hixie> and i got several requests to keep at least one thing consistent between XHTML and HTML
  582. # [20:12] <Hixie> so it seemed like the least dangerous choice
  583. # [20:13] <sicking> least dangerous why?
  584. # [20:13] <sicking> it does seem like the most desireable for sure, not sure about least dangerous
  585. # [20:13] <Hixie> well tagName seemed like a big danger in comparison, e.g.
  586. # [20:13] <Hixie> and localName is relatively new compared to the others
  587. # [20:13] <Hixie> i'm not saying _not_ dangerous
  588. # [20:13] <Hixie> just _least_ dangerous
  589. # [20:13] <Hixie> i really have to go now
  590. # [20:14] <Hixie> send mail if you want to follow up
  591. # [20:14] <Hixie> or wait a few hours :-)
  592. # [20:14] <sicking> ok
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  596. # [20:23] <zcorpan_> sicking: hey
  597. # [20:24] <sicking> zcorpan_, yo
  598. # [20:24] <zcorpan_> sicking: i'm working on fixing dom core - http://simon.html5.org/specs/web-dom-core
  599. # [20:25] <zcorpan_> sicking: i'm considering dropping error checking altogether, do you think that would be feasible?
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  602. # [20:29] <sicking> zcorpan_, what is that spec, i've never seen it before
  603. # [20:29] <sicking> zcorpan_, it seems to have a lot of missing parts
  604. # [20:31] <sicking> zcorpan_, and specifically which error checking do you want to drop? the nodename ones?
  605. # [20:34] <zcorpan_> sicking: i started to work on it last week
  606. # [20:34] <zcorpan_> sicking: the checking against XML and XMLNS productions
  607. # [20:36] <sicking> zcorpan_, how do you mean?
  608. # [20:36] <zcorpan_> e.g. createElementNS throws if you pass in something that's not a QName
  609. # [20:36] <sicking> zcorpan_, ok
  610. # [20:36] <sicking> zcorpan_, is that something that we really don't want to enforce?
  611. # [20:37] <sicking> zcorpan_, we've enforced that in gecko for a while and I don't think i've seen any bugs about it
  612. # [20:37] <zcorpan_> sicking: thing is that it's not enforced, you can still get elements that aren't QName by adopting elements from other documents
  613. # [20:38] <zcorpan_> sicking: and the checking is arbitrary, everything isn't checked and some things are checked but not against what xml says but something different
  614. # [20:38] <sicking> zcorpan_, hmm..
  615. # [20:38] <sicking> zcorpan_, i guess the html parser can produce a somewhat larger set of node names
  616. # [20:38] <sicking> zcorpan_, still has some restrictions though
  617. # [20:39] <zcorpan_> sicking: indeed
  618. # [20:39] <sicking> zcorpan_, the two things that i remember specifically not wanting to allow was null characters and spaces in node names
  619. # [20:39] <zcorpan_> sicking: i'd be fine with checking for things that the html parser can't produce
  620. # [20:40] <zcorpan_> sicking: but right now it's just arbitrary and useless imho
  621. # [20:40] <sicking> zcorpan_, i'd be fine with loosening things a little, but i don't think i want to get too crazy
  622. # [20:40] <sicking> zcorpan_, i don't see much value in allowing too crazy node names
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  624. # [20:41] <zcorpan_> sicking: ok
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  627. # [20:42] <sicking> zcorpan_, but in general allowing the DOM and the parser to create the same set of names makes sense to me
  628. # [20:43] <zcorpan_> sicking: ok. thanks
  629. # [20:44] <zcorpan_> sicking: another thing, gecko in quirks mode allows createElement('<div>'), but opera and webkit don't
  630. # [20:44] <zcorpan_> sicking: is that something that could be changed in gecko?
  631. # [20:44] <sicking> zcorpan_, yeah, that originally came from some internal sites at IBM
  632. # [20:45] <sicking> zcorpan_, hard to say, i'm sure sites will break if we remove it
  633. # [20:45] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-0b1501c6334569a7)
  634. # [20:45] <sicking> zcorpan_, the syntax originally comes from IE which allows you to do stuff like createElement('<div foo=bar>')
  635. # [20:46] <sicking> zcorpan_, but we didn't want to go that far
  636. # [20:46] <sicking> zcorpan_, i think we added support for this pretty recently, around 4 years ago or so
  637. # [20:48] <zcorpan_> sicking: hmm. i see we have at least one bug on createElement('<p>')
  638. # [20:48] <zcorpan_> http://www.voetaf.com.br/
  639. # [20:49] <zcorpan_> or it does document.createElement("<OPTION>");
  640. # [20:50] <zcorpan_> i don't want to have createElement be different in quirks mode though
  641. # [20:56] <zcorpan_> sicking: do you consider '1' to be a crazy element name?
  642. # [20:57] <sicking> zcorpan_, well, i think the discussion should be had in a broader audience. But from a security point of view that is fine with me
  643. # [20:57] <zcorpan_> sicking: ok
  644. # [20:57] <sicking> zcorpan_, possibly we could allow crazier names for HTML nodes than for non-HTML nodes
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  646. # [21:02] <Hixie> clearly some characters shouldn't be allowed in tag names
  647. # [21:02] <Hixie> e.g. ' ' or '>'
  648. # [21:02] <Hixie> so if we're going to have to do checks anyway
  649. # [21:03] <Hixie> it seems like we might as well do more
  650. # [21:03] * dglazkov is now known as dglazkov|lunch
  651. # [21:04] <zcorpan_> IE allows ' ' and '>' as tag name
  652. # [21:05] * Hixie is generally reluctant to change the spec given how much effort has gone into following the spec and testing it in the first place
  653. # [21:08] <zcorpan_> i wonder where dom core discussion should take place
  654. # [21:14] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I have a system waiting without the tests, because I haven't yet seen Hixie say that the spec is stable enough for a lot of test to be written
  655. # [21:14] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I suppose i should start writing tests regardless
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  658. # [21:31] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: you could write tests as you fix bugs
  659. # [21:32] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: how does the system work? if i want to contribute with tests
  660. # [21:34] <hsivonen> The system requires each test to live on an HTTP server somewhere
  661. # [21:35] <hsivonen> then the tester front end is asked to dump JSON for that URL
  662. # [21:35] <hsivonen> this JSON can the be edited to make the permitted error locations more wide
  663. # [21:36] <hsivonen> then the JSON reference dump is committed to a big JSON file using the front end tool
  664. # [21:36] <hsivonen> the front end can then run all the tests in the big file or be asked to run individual tests
  665. # [21:37] <hsivonen> also, there's a testing system for the tokenizer (html5lib) and thee builder (html5lib)
  666. # [21:37] <hsivonen> but the bugs you found recently where ouside the tokenizer in the IO layer
  667. # [21:38] <hsivonen> I'm not at my develoment machine ATM
  668. # [21:38] <hsivonen> I can write docs for this tomorrow
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  670. # [21:39] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: so how would a test for the ascii bug look like?
  671. # [21:39] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-9787804932947d39)
  672. # [21:40] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: <!DOCTYPE html><title>ä</title> served without charset on the HTTP layer
  673. # [21:41] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: doesn't it need to say somehow what is expeced?
  674. # [21:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: yeah, but I can't autogenerate the reference JSOn from this computer
  675. # [21:42] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: ah ok
  676. # [21:42] <hsivonen> but it's basically the out=json format
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  680. # [22:02] <Dashiva> I see JF still thinks that any decision made at any point equals attaching semantic meaning
  681. # [22:04] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  682. # [22:06] <Lachy> Dashiva, that line of reasoning is just stretching the truth in order to fit his preconceived notions
  683. # [22:06] <Dashiva> How would he handle an image that was selected at random, like Hixie's front page image?
  684. # [22:07] <Lachy> now he's going for the whole "choice" argument, saying we should include it simply because it provides another choice
  685. # [22:07] <Hixie> why do you people even listen to the guy
  686. # [22:07] <annevk> sicking, pong
  687. # [22:07] <Hixie> he's obviously either a crackpot or a troll
  688. # [22:08] <Lachy> Hixie, we don't, he's just funny
  689. # [22:08] <Lachy> well, his arguments are
  690. # [22:08] * Hixie starts his stopwatch to see how long it takes for someone to complain to public-html about his inappropriate behaviour
  691. # [22:08] <Dashiva> Hixie: I do it to atone for my otherwise merciless commentary
  692. # [22:08] <jgraham> I wonder if he has ever heard of the paradox of choice? Or used a Mac
  693. # [22:09] <Dashiva> I bet he's a big fan of linux on the desktop ;)
  694. # [22:09] * jgraham is a big fan of gnome-on-linux-on-the-desktop :)
  695. # [22:10] <annevk> sicking, I guess you settled it with Hixie
  696. # [22:11] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Remote closed the connection)
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  702. # [22:20] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Client Quit)
  703. # [22:22] * Joins: roc (n=chatzill@121-72-162-122.dsl.telstraclear.net)
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  705. # [22:26] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-c5f5ae8919b7597d)
  706. # [22:31] * annevk wonders who those anonymous people are who are spamming Chrome accessibility links on his blog
  707. # [22:38] * dglazkov is now known as dglazkov|brb
  708. # [22:42] * dglazkov|brb is now known as dglazkov
  709. # [22:47] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
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  717. # [23:29] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl) ("Disconnected...")
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  719. # [23:34] <annevk> news.google.com/newspapers is slowish
  720. # [23:34] <annevk> been a long time since I've encountered that at a Google site
  721. # [23:35] <annevk> (where slowish means not possible to use)
  722. # [23:36] <Philip`> Seems to work alright for me, although the timeline view indicates that "google" has been mentioned at fairly constant non-zero rate since 1890
  723. # [23:38] * Quits: aaronlev_ (n=chatzill@92.230.130.26) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070208]")
  724. # [23:40] <svl> date extraction is totally screwy. taking birthdays and the like as publication dates
  725. # [23:41] <Philip`> It has a Wikipedia page dated to 1969 too
  726. # [23:45] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-06e69e2b94f3b9a9)
  727. # [23:45] <Lachy> oh, cool, that must have been from the old days when wikipedia was edited on blackboards with chalk and dusters.
  728. # [23:47] <Philip`> Reverting vandals was a huge pain back then
  729. # [23:48] <annevk> the frontpage is fast enough btw
  730. # [23:48] <annevk> it was browsing newspapers that was not doable
  731. # [23:48] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@80.76.201.52) (Remote closed the connection)
  732. # [23:49] * annevk finds "4004 BC"
  733. # [23:52] <Lachy> Philip`, yeah, especially those vandals that did their handywork with spray paint.
  734. # [23:57] * Quits: roc_ (n=chatzill@202.0.36.64) (Remote closed the connection)
  735. # Session Close: Tue Sep 09 00:00:01 2008

The end :)