/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-09-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Sep 09 00:00:01 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Philip` wonders if anyone has made a form of XML that allows efficient random access into files
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  16. # [00:40] <annevk> Opera actually shows EXIF data if you rightclick an image and hit properties
  17. # [00:41] <annevk> seems that Flickr removes it for everything but the original photo though
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  20. # [00:44] <annevk> roc, thanks for http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2008/09/some_boring_css.html
  21. # [00:44] <Hixie> earliest mention of me seems to be:
  22. # [00:44] <Hixie> Aug 16, 1999 - "I am quite happy to work for mozilla just to get a decent, free, standards compliant browser onto the market," said Ian Hickson, a Web developer from the UK who contributed to the mozilla BugAThon project. "That is an incentive in itself, the rest is just a bonus."
  23. # [00:44] * annevk filed that long ago
  24. # [00:44] <Hixie> (earliest mention in actual news, anyway)
  25. # [00:44] <annevk> Google claims my about page is the earliest mention of me
  26. # [00:44] <Hixie> i was 19 at the time. i was a random student, not a "Web developer from the UK"
  27. # [00:44] <annevk> from 1986
  28. # [00:45] <Hixie> hah
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  32. # [00:49] <roc> annevk: no sweat
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  34. # [00:51] <annevk> I don't think I ever positioned the root element for any purpose, but positioning the body element against the root element that has a border was something I tried
  35. # [00:51] <annevk> (which then failed in Firefox at which point I filed that bug)
  36. # [00:53] <roc> when you filed the bug I don't think anyone except Opera got it right
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  38. # [00:55] <annevk> yeah
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  41. # [00:58] <Hixie> othermaciej, roc, annevk: your input on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2008JulSep/0441.html would be very welcome
  42. # [00:59] <Hixie> if there's someone in your respective organisations i should ping in particular, i'd be happy to do so, just let me know
  43. # [00:59] <othermaciej> Hixie: interesting
  44. # [00:59] <othermaciej> Hixie: any quantitative results available?
  45. # [01:00] <Hixie> the numbers vary a lot based on the kind of page, from what i understand
  46. # [01:00] <othermaciej> Hixie: I am interested in how much it saves compared to gzip compression
  47. # [01:01] <othermaciej> Hixie: or other straightforward compression schemes
  48. # [01:01] <Hixie> well, for a page like, say, the google results page, gzip can only compress the page, whereas this can compress the header and footer parts dramatically
  49. # [01:02] <othermaciej> I see a slide deck, guess I will look at that
  50. # [01:02] <othermaciej> sure it sounds interesting in theory
  51. # [01:02] <roc> Lab result
  52. # [01:02] <Hixie> the proposal is in the PDF
  53. # [01:02] <roc> About 40 percent data reduction better than Gzip alone on Google search.
  54. # [01:02] <othermaciej> I would like to see numbers
  55. # [01:02] <roc> See faster Google search results. Especially under low bandwidth and high latency condition.
  56. # [01:02] <roc> so would I
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  58. # [01:02] <Hixie> i shall poke for numbers
  59. # [01:02] <othermaciej> preferably on a wide range of sites
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  61. # [01:03] <othermaciej> having a per-site compression index does carry some risks
  62. # [01:03] <othermaciej> complexity, new attack surface, etc
  63. # [01:03] <Hixie> for sure
  64. # [01:03] <othermaciej> but it also sounds in theory like it could be a big win
  65. # [01:03] <roc> yeah
  66. # [01:03] <Philip`> Also it'd be interesting to compare to gzip with a preset dictionary
  67. # [01:03] <roc> in principle it sounds good
  68. # [01:03] <othermaciej> true, a preset dictionary for the general web including common html and css constructs might be a big win too
  69. # [01:04] <roc> this could subsume that if you allow Access-Controls on dictionaries
  70. # [01:05] <Philip`> (Also maybe to gzip of multi-request/response keepalived stream (i.e. compress the whole stream, not just each response separately))
  71. # [01:05] <othermaciej> and btw I am specifically interested in perf on a large variety of realistic examples, not just the best-case examples
  72. # [01:05] <Hixie> yeah
  73. # [01:05] <othermaciej> (or else convincing argument that best case is very common)
  74. # [01:05] <roc> search pages are pretty common
  75. # [01:05] <Philip`> Maybe we could just hardcode Google's header and footer into all UAs
  76. # [01:05] <roc> but yeah
  77. # [01:06] <othermaciej> I would hope it is more broadly applicable than google search result pages
  78. # [01:08] <Hixie> the paper mentioned in the e-mail is here: http://sdch.googlegroups.com/web/Shared_Dictionary_Compression_over_HTTP.pdf
  79. # [01:10] <roc> ok, I've read it
  80. # [01:11] <roc> with this design, you can't actually share dictionaries across domains, because that would open an DoS attack against other sites
  81. # [01:11] <roc> well, at least a reduction in performance
  82. # [01:12] <roc> so how do I give feedback?
  83. # [01:12] <Hixie> reply on the list
  84. # [01:12] <Hixie> (the http list, that is)
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  86. # [01:14] <Hixie> i don't really know where the right place to standardise this would be if y'all are interested in taking this further
  87. # [01:14] <Hixie> probably a new w3c or ietf wg
  88. # [01:14] <Hixie> (no idea how the ietf works)
  89. # [01:15] <Hixie> oh, he also attached the PDF, i totally didn't notice
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  91. # [01:20] <Hixie> http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/36097 is funny
  92. # [01:28] * Hixie finds a part of wf2 that requires browsers to implement time travel
  93. # [01:28] <Hixie> paradox-avoiding time travel, even
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  95. # [01:36] <Dashiva> Hixie: I hope you didn't remove it, I was depending on that feature in my new awesome framework
  96. # [01:37] <Hixie> :-P
  97. # [01:39] <Hixie> ok i need a word for what we do to check the validity of a form that isn't "validity"
  98. # [01:40] <Hixie> since we use that for conformance
  99. # [01:40] <Hixie> constraint cecking maybe
  100. # [01:40] <Hixie> checking
  101. # [01:41] <Dashiva> Constraint is good.
  102. # [01:41] <Philip`> Filled-inedness
  103. # [01:42] * Hixie takes Philip`'s merit badge back
  104. # [01:42] <Hixie> you now have -1 merit badges. :-P
  105. # [01:42] <Dashiva> User cooperation ensurance
  106. # [01:42] <Hixie> hah
  107. # [01:42] <Dashiva> Is ensurance a word?
  108. # [01:43] <Hixie> you guys realise i now have to use both of these ideas in the spec somehow right
  109. # [01:43] <Dashiva> I will deny everything
  110. # [01:43] <Hixie> i have logs!
  111. # [01:44] <Dashiva> I could claim impersonation
  112. # [01:44] <Hixie> mmm.
  113. # [01:44] <Hixie> bummer.
  114. # [01:45] <Dashiva> This is where you're supposed to vaguely hint to some kind of vast google conspiracy to control and monitor all traffic on the net
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  117. # [01:45] <Hixie> oh right
  118. # [01:45] <Hixie> "google doesn't comment on future products and services"
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  121. # [01:47] <Dashiva> I suppose I should try to at least pretend I sleep at sane times, as I'm not being paid to stay awake at night.
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  125. # [01:49] <Hixie> if you get paid for your work instead of your ass-in-a-chair-ness, then you can just work at night
  126. # [01:53] <Dashiva> Yeah, but even if I did go to the university at midnight, I doubt any students would show up to get help :)
  127. # [01:53] <Hixie> ah well
  128. # [01:54] <Hixie> that i can't help you with
  129. # [01:54] <Hixie> i recommend getting students to ask for help by e-mail
  130. # [01:54] <Hixie> :-D
  131. # [01:54] <Dashiva> Not like they show up in daytime either...
  132. # [01:54] <Dashiva> Yeah, tried that too. Maybe it'll pick up when the exercises get harder.
  133. # [01:55] <Dashiva> When I took the course myself, I did email my predecessor quite a bit
  134. # [02:02] <Philip`> If the exercises are easy, they can do them without any help; if the exercises are hard, they won't do them at all and will instead play frisbee or whatever
  135. # [02:04] * Philip` isn't quite sure what lazy students do nowadays
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  240. # [10:16] <zcorpan_> Hixie: what's wrong with "Form validation"?
  241. # [10:16] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: why the difference between <!DOCTYPE html><title></title><table><tr><td></tbody><table></table> and <!DOCTYPE html><title></title><table><tr><td></tr><table></table> ?
  242. # [10:18] <zcorpan_> Hixie: i think it's good to stick with terminology that people actually use, otherwise we end up with the same problem that wcag2 had
  243. # [10:19] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I guess the tree builder goes through one mode mode in the latter case
  244. # [10:22] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: i guess html5 parser + relaxng doesn't make it easy to reach the "one message per mistake" optimum
  245. # [10:22] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: they sure don't
  246. # [10:23] <hsivonen> for about three reasons
  247. # [10:23] <hsivonen> 1) HTML5 prescribes errors and sometimes jumps through more than one error-emitting state
  248. # [10:24] <hsivonen> 2) tree builder error correction introduces implied stuff that can react with RELAX NG
  249. # [10:24] <hsivonen> 3) RELAX NG element position errors suck after the first element position error
  250. # [10:26] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: perhaps you could make it slightly better by having a "validator friendly" mode in the parser that omits "duplicate" errors and makes the tree more useful
  251. # [10:26] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: would one ever want to have the duplicate errors for anything except unit tests?
  252. # [10:27] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: no :)
  253. # [10:27] <hsivonen> I guess it would be feasible to make an "at most one tree builder error per token" rule
  254. # [10:28] <hsivonen> however, maintaining a different tree builder mode for validation would be painful
  255. # [10:28] <hsivonen> originally, I wanted the tree builder to have 3 modes
  256. # [10:29] <hsivonen> 1) tree building and conforming
  257. # [10:29] <hsivonen> 2) streaming and conforming (i.e. fatal error on non-streamable cases)
  258. # [10:29] <hsivonen> 3) streaming and non-conforming streamable recovery
  259. # [10:29] <annevk> (It would be nice if </br/> also generated just one error.)
  260. # [10:29] <hsivonen> I never got around to #3 and recently removed the code that anticipated such a mode
  261. # [10:30] <hsivonen> annevk: wouldn't an ""at most one tree builder error per token" rule
  262. # [10:30] <hsivonen> do that
  263. # [10:30] <hsivonen> ?
  264. # [10:32] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: forgetting an </ol> end tag is an example where v.w.o has more useful behavior
  265. # [10:33] * Joins: roc (n=chatzill@121-72-162-122.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  266. # [10:34] <hsivonen> are the assumptions of the html5lib serializer tests documented somewhere?
  267. # [10:34] <hsivonen> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Serializer_tests is empty
  268. # [10:35] <annevk> hsivonen, the second / is a tokenization error
  269. # [10:35] <hsivonen> oh right.
  270. # [10:36] <hsivonen> however, it's an error that could be trivially moved to the tree builder phase
  271. # [10:36] <hsivonen> if the spec and implementors agree, so that the unit tests agree with it being a tree builder error
  272. # [10:37] <hsivonen> annevk: anyway, I think </br/> isn't a case worth optimizing
  273. # [10:38] <hsivonen> so we probably should leave it as is
  274. # [10:39] <annevk> true
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  277. # [10:45] <annevk> wow
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  279. # [10:45] <annevk> with IE8 in standards mode people have to prefix overflow-x and overflow-y
  280. # [10:45] <annevk> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/09/08/microsoft-css-vendor-extensions.aspx
  281. # [10:45] <roc> wah?
  282. # [10:45] <annevk> I wonder who comes up that
  283. # [10:46] <roc> We support it without prefix, and Opera and Webkit do too, right?
  284. # [10:47] <othermaciej> wow they prefixed filter
  285. # [10:47] <othermaciej> and changed the syntax
  286. # [10:47] <othermaciej> bold
  287. # [10:48] <hsivonen> perhaps it's like making getAttribute not return null
  288. # [10:48] <roc> hmm
  289. # [10:48] <othermaciej> wait I though they reverted that
  290. # [10:48] <othermaciej> or rather
  291. # [10:48] <othermaciej> matched other browsers instead of spec
  292. # [10:48] <roc> text-overflow, background-position and word-wrap are also interoperably implemented without prefix
  293. # [10:49] <roc> although, what's this background-position-x/-y?
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  295. # [10:50] <roc> "However, in order to ease the transition, the non-prefixed versions of properties that existed in Internet Explorer 7, though considered deprecated, will continue to function in Internet Explorer 8."
  296. # [10:50] <hsivonen> othermaciej: right, so perhaps the overflow stuff go the same route
  297. # [10:51] <annevk> I'm going to comment that prefixing overflow-x/y is silly
  298. # [10:51] <annevk> (though in a friendly way)
  299. # [10:51] <othermaciej> adding a prefixed version doesn't seem that harmful
  300. # [10:51] <roc> it's not harmless, just pointless
  301. # [10:51] <roc> er, not harmful
  302. # [10:51] <roc> hum, still no support for 'opacity'
  303. # [10:52] <Hixie> zcorpan_: people call it constraint checking too. but we have had confusion around the term "validation" in the past.
  304. # [10:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: the spec does allow you to do whatever you like after you report the first error, iirc, so you could have your parser do non-compliant fixup in order to give more useful error messages
  305. # [10:53] <roc> hmm, I shouldn't have said text-overflow was "interoperably implemented" ... it's just "implemented" :-)
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  307. # [10:54] <annevk> roc, Opera actually has text-overflow prefixed
  308. # [10:54] <annevk> though we are considering removing the prefix
  309. # [10:54] <roc> ok
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  312. # [10:55] <roc> but still, once one major browser has polluted the Web with a non-prefixed property, there doesn't seem much point in holding out
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  314. # [10:55] <annevk> yeah, don't really recall why we kept it prefixed
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  319. # [11:13] <zcorpan_> Hixie: will willValidate be renamed?
  320. # [11:13] <Hixie> unlikely
  321. # [11:13] <Hixie> i might call it "constrain validation"
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  324. # [11:18] <Philip`> Hmm, IE8 adds __defineGetter__ (and Setter and lookup)
  325. # [11:22] <hsivonen> so does that mean from IE8 onwards, the top 4 engines all support prototypes for DOM nodes and defining getters and setters for them?
  326. # [11:22] <hsivonen> or am I missing something?
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  330. # [11:37] <annevk> hsivonen, I think you're right
  331. # [11:37] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  332. # [11:38] <Dashiva> Now we just have to wait a decade or two for IE6 and IE7 to fade away
  333. # [11:38] <annevk> or for other browsers to get more market share
  334. # [11:44] <hsivonen> I wonder what the upgrade rate from IE6 to IE7 is when people install XP (instead of Vista) today
  335. # [11:44] <hsivonen> IE6 will start getting reaped by the end of computer retention times
  336. # [11:45] * annevk hopes they'll become obsolete due to other browsers
  337. # [11:46] <hsivonen> I hope so, too, but realistically, if someone hasn't upgraded from IE6 by now, chances aren't that they won't until they buy a new computer
  338. # [11:48] <Hixie> anyone here got livejournal accounts btw?
  339. # [11:48] <annevk> nope
  340. # [11:49] <hsivonen> it publicly visible stats mean anything, it seems that most of the IE6 block are running it on XP as opposed to Windows 2000
  341. # [11:49] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.244.16.232)
  342. # [11:49] <hsivonen> s/it publicly/if publicly/
  343. # [11:50] <hsivonen> and Vista will probably never surpass XP in market share
  344. # [11:50] <hsivonen> (that is, the next version of Windows probably comes before Vista goes ahead of XP)
  345. # [11:55] <aaronlev_> i created a mailing list for people working on free tools/resources to advance WAI-ARIA
  346. # [11:55] <aaronlev_> http://groups.google.com/group/free-aria
  347. # [11:55] <aaronlev_> i probably should have included HTML a11y in the scope but, i guess this will be a focused group
  348. # [11:55] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  349. # [11:57] <Philip`> hsivonen: Only about 2-3% of all people seem to be using Windows 2000, so that can't account for much of IE6's usage
  350. # [11:57] <Philip`> (Are those the numbers you were going on, or do you have OS-browser-combination stats?)
  351. # [11:58] <Lachy> hsivonen, that depends if the versions of XP people are installing still only come with IE6. Since they would have been shipping with Sevice Pack 3 since April or May, and IE7 has been out longer than that, they could be shipping with IE7 by default
  352. # [11:58] <annevk> I read this article yesterday that Google kept Google Chrome security update specifics secret but http://groups.google.com/group/chromium-announce/browse_thread/thread/886cd07cbbc1b4cf seems to simply list them
  353. # [11:58] <hsivonen> does Google Analytics have a public display of aggregate browser stats?
  354. # [11:59] <hsivonen> Lachy: my understanding is that there have been XP discs with IE6 on the market long after IE7 came out
  355. # [12:00] <hsivonen> Lachy: does MS remaster XP install discs at all?
  356. # [12:00] <Philip`> They make new discs to roll in Service Packs, as far as I'm aware
  357. # [12:00] <Lachy> hsivonen, yes
  358. # [12:01] <hsivonen> ok
  359. # [12:01] <Lachy> I have an XP SP2 disc at home that I use
  360. # [12:01] <annevk> but even SP3 does not come with IE7
  361. # [12:01] <annevk> per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP#Service_Pack_3 anyways
  362. # [12:01] <Lachy> no, but IE7 has started being distributed as a critical update, and the service pack should have meant new discs were produced
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  365. # [12:05] <hsivonen> SP3 does not update IE to 7
  366. # [12:05] <annevk> yeah, see above
  367. # [12:06] * Philip` would notice if XP started automatically upgrading to IE7, since his mum would complain that it looked all funny
  368. # [12:06] <hsivonen> Philip`: you don't take care of your parents running an up-to-date browser?
  369. # [12:06] <Lachy> hsivonen, yes, I'm aware of that. But AIUI, I believe they include all critical updates at the same time as they release new service pack discs
  370. # [12:07] <Lachy> Philip`, it has, but it still requires the user to manually perform the installation, which can be cancelled.
  371. # [12:08] <Lachy> last time I installed XP in my virtual machine, I let it do all critical updates and came back and noticed the IE7 installation dialog waiting for me
  372. # [12:08] <Philip`> hsivonen: It's an up-to-date copy of IE6 :-p
  373. # [12:09] <Philip`> (and my dad has now switched to Firefox)
  374. # [12:10] * Philip` doesn't see that the benefits outweigh the switching costs, if all you do is look at Hotmail and online banking
  375. # [12:10] <hsivonen> Philip`: think about the externalities of online banking with IE6
  376. # [12:11] <hsivonen> banks see IE6 in their logs and continue to support it
  377. # [12:11] <Philip`> A single person will be lost in the noise and won't make any real difference to their logs
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  379. # [12:13] <Philip`> IE6 should be easy to support if the banking websites weren't huge JS monstosities that claim to work only in Internet Explorer and Netscape and that sometimes hobble along in Opera too, so it's their own fault :-)
  380. # [12:14] <annevk> my bank works fine in Opera
  381. # [12:14] <annevk> it's just looks a bit fugly now I have standards mode override in effect
  382. # [12:15] <annevk> still perfectly usable though
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  386. # [12:35] <hsivonen> hmm. sudo easy_install simplejson complains about not finding eggs
  387. # [12:40] <hsivonen> ah. I used the wrong copy of easy_install
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  389. # [12:47] <BenMillard> I just saw the SDCH thing. In the PDF, I read "For example, retrieving a set of HTML pages with the same header, footer, inlined JavaScript and CSS requires the retransmission of the same data multiple times."
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  391. # [12:47] <BenMillard> but often the header will differ slightly, since the current section will be highlighted (such as via class) or de-linked (by removing <a href>) or both
  392. # [12:48] <BenMillard> and inline CSS is rather an edge case, given how well supported and cachable external CSS is
  393. # [12:49] <Dashiva> You don't have to make the whole header be one word, though?
  394. # [12:50] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-155-4.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  395. # [12:50] <BenMillard> Dashiva, the point is there's less which can be shared between requests on well-designed sites than the document seems to think.
  396. # [12:54] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  397. # [12:55] <BenMillard> simply writing better, lightweight markup would make Google result listings significantly more efficient without all this complexity
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  401. # [13:12] <BenMillard> How does a dictionary file get created? For it to be automated, a system would need to know every permutation of markup it can produce in the areas targeted for inclusion in a dictionary, such as the header, afaict.
  402. # [13:12] <BenMillard> if has to be done manually, I don't see it catching on
  403. # [13:14] <Philip`> That's easy - you just tell your team of PhDs to work it out for you
  404. # [13:15] <Philip`> Or, I guess, you use a tool written by Google, which scans your logs and looks at the most commonly requested files and works out how to optimise for that
  405. # [13:20] * gsnedders is far too tired
  406. # [13:22] <BenMillard> Philip`, just writing better markup seems like a better idea to me...especially given how much scope there is for improving the markup of mainstream websites. :)
  407. # [13:26] <Philip`> Maybe they could solve the problem of retransmission of inline CSS and JS by not making it inline
  408. # [13:37] <hsivonen> launching a new compression scheme in order to deal with inline CSS and JS indeed seems weird
  409. # [13:40] <BenMillard> the footer stays the same until you visit a page linked to by the footer, then you delink that entry
  410. # [13:40] <jgraham> Presumably the theory is that CPU cycles are cheap compared to both bandwidth and authoring time
  411. # [13:40] <BenMillard> navigation changes all the time as you highlight the current section, delinking an entry when you're at the index for that section
  412. # [13:41] <BenMillard> search box stays the same
  413. # [13:41] <hsivonen> however, a new compression scheme will like be more deployable than a new HTML client side include mechanism
  414. # [13:41] <BenMillard> hsivonen, my impression is few people even use the compression schemes which exist today, despite them being effective.
  415. # [13:43] <BenMillard> having briefly done a manual review of several websites I've developed professionally in recent times, it's surprising how little markup is shared between pages
  416. # [13:43] <BenMillard> the decorative graphics + CSS + JS massively outweigh the markup in terms of filesize, and they're already cached by conventional means
  417. # [13:45] <hsivonen> BenMillard: few people perhaps, but significant traffic generators do
  418. # [13:45] <hsivonen> BenMillard: like wikipedia
  419. # [13:48] <BenMillard> hsivonen, looks like myspace.com and google.com use gzip, too
  420. # [13:48] * Joins: jdandrea (n=jdandrea@ool-44c09d7b.dyn.optonline.net)
  421. # [13:49] <BenMillard> hsivonen, if it were commonplace and commonly inadequate, I could see space for a new technology to improve it.
  422. # [13:50] <BenMillard> but neither of those conditions are true, afaict
  423. # [13:50] <Lachy> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/09/08/microsoft-css-vendor-extensions.aspx
  424. # [13:50] <Lachy> it's about time they did that!
  425. # [13:51] <BenMillard> Lachy, http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080909#l-279
  426. # [13:53] <Lachy> oh, ignore me then.
  427. # [13:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan: telling the DOM to coalesce adjacent text nodes may have an effect on passing the tree to XSLT in Gecko
  428. # [13:56] <BenMillard> jgraham, it also seems to assume people's markup cannot be improved...yet here's a typical example of markup currently authored on the web: http://groups.google.com/group/free-aria
  429. # [13:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: is this thread on your radar: http://www.w3.org/mid/OFE3B13C49.D2CF8357-ONC12574BE.00686AE6-C12574BE.00692ED8@us.ibm.com
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  435. # [14:10] <annevk> Hixie, http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/canvas/007.html and http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/canvas/008.html need to be updated
  436. # [14:12] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  437. # [14:14] * hsivonen wonders what tighter Web integration for Ubuntu Jaunty desktop means
  438. # [14:14] <Dashiva> They install it on google appengine, and you run an x server that connects there
  439. # [14:15] <hsivonen> shouldn't the X protocol be implemented on top of Web Socket and <canvas> for that to be Web integration?
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  452. # [15:24] <annevk> 'There SHOULD be a @version attribute on the html element with the value "XHTML+RDFa 1.0"'
  453. # [15:24] <annevk> can anyone enlighten me how that helps?
  454. # [15:27] <Lachy> annevk, what spec is that from?
  455. # [15:28] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#docconf
  456. # [15:29] <Lachy> Hixie, in in the "in head" insertion mode http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#parsing-main-inhead when a meta element is inserted, the spec states:
  457. # [15:29] <Lachy> "Otherwise, if the element has a content attribute, and applying the algorithm for extracting an encoding from a Content-Type to its value returns a supported encoding encoding, and the confidence is currently tentative, then change the encoding to the encoding encoding."
  458. # [15:29] * Joins: gsnedders_ (n=gsnedder@host86-142-195-253.range86-142.btcentralplus.com)
  459. # [15:29] <Lachy> That doesn't seem to check for http-equiv="Content-Type". Is that intentional?
  460. # [15:29] <annevk> yes
  461. # [15:30] <Lachy> ok, so <meta content="text/html;charset=UTF-8"> is enough?
  462. # [15:30] <Lachy> or even if it had http-equiv="Whatever"
  463. # [15:30] <Philip`> Yes
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  465. # [15:31] <Lachy> ok
  466. # [15:31] * Philip` remembers some past discussion of this
  467. # [15:31] <hsivonen> Lachy: Validator.nu whines though
  468. # [15:32] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/mid/47CEDDF5.6090100@cam.ac.uk
  469. # [15:32] <Lachy> oh, ok. I was just wondering cause I need to write TCs for this part of the spec today, and trying to work out all the conditions that can trigger a reparse
  470. # [15:32] <Philip`> (See comment about content-style-type)
  471. # [15:33] <Philip`> Hmm, not really "discussion", just a comment, but anyway it's a known (mis)feature
  472. # [15:43] <zcorpan> annevk: i thought version='' was supposed to be the same as the FPI
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  475. # [15:45] <zcorpan> euc-jp reminds me
  476. # [15:45] <zcorpan> i think URLs aren't utf-8 if the page encoding is euc-jp
  477. # [15:48] * hsivonen checks if there are replies to zcorpan's comments
  478. # [15:48] <hsivonen> no replies
  479. # [15:49] <zcorpan> hsivonen: which comments?
  480. # [15:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the comments about the XHTML2 WG draft that used EUC-JP in examples that people will copy and paste
  481. # [15:51] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ah
  482. # [15:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan: what you mention of euc-jp related to something else?
  483. # [15:51] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/mid/47CEDDF5.6090100@cam.ac.uk
  484. # [15:52] <hsivonen> ah
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  490. # [16:41] <hsivonen> zcorpan: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_Full-Stack_Tests
  491. # [16:42] <zcorpan> hsivonen: thanks
  492. # [16:44] <hsivonen> zcorpan: also, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_Unit_Tests
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  494. # [16:46] <zcorpan> hsivonen: hmm i like omitting tags in test cases :P
  495. # [16:47] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it caused me grief when annevk omitted tags in the WF2 test suite...
  496. # [16:48] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok
  497. # [16:48] <hsivonen> albeit in XHTML5
  498. # [16:48] <zcorpan> hsivonen: should tests be XHTML-compatible?
  499. # [16:48] <zcorpan> or why did it cause grief?
  500. # [16:49] <zcorpan> oh he omitted tags in XHTML?
  501. # [16:49] <hsivonen> HTML5 tests don't need to be XHTML compatible
  502. # [16:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan: he omitted, IIRC, <head> and </head> in XHTML, so the cases that should have had no errors related to WF2 had this other error
  503. # [16:50] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok
  504. # [16:50] <zcorpan> hsivonen: but can i omit optional tags in text/html?
  505. # [16:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan: if you are certain that Hixie won't change the omissibility of those tags in random ways, yeah
  506. # [16:50] <annevk> fwiw, I did that when I still believed having different requirements for HTML and XHTML was ok
  507. # [16:53] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i take it that the test harness won't complain if i leave out "message"
  508. # [16:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it won't
  509. # [16:55] <hsivonen> oops
  510. # [16:55] <hsivonen> I take that back
  511. # [16:55] <hsivonen> It will probably throw
  512. # [16:55] <hsivonen> but I can change that
  513. # [16:56] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like it'll just say None in place of the message
  514. # [16:57] <hsivonen> so omitting the message works
  515. # [16:57] <zcorpan> ok
  516. # [16:59] <zcorpan> hsivonen: Writing a Test Eliciting No Errors is assuming that Validator.nu doesn't have a bug related to what is being tested :)
  517. # [17:00] <hsivonen> right :-)
  518. # [17:01] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i'll try writing a test tonight
  519. # [17:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan: great. thanks
  520. # [17:04] * Joins: aaronlev__ (n=chatzill@e179088209.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  521. # [17:04] * aaronlev__ is now known as aaronlev
  522. # [17:06] <hsivonen> I wonder when gandi.net is going to start taking customers without invitations...
  523. # [17:10] * gsnedders_ is now known as gsnedders
  524. # [17:11] <Philip`> For virtual hosting?
  525. # [17:13] * Philip` wonders how you're meant to work out whether particular hosting services are any good or not
  526. # [17:13] <webben> annevk: it only helps if you have different behaviors defined for the same elements/attributes in the same namespaces, which I guess is the risk XHTML2 is potentially taking. So: protection misunderstanding by theoretical future XHTML2 UAs?
  527. # [17:13] <webben> (re version)
  528. # [17:14] <webben> *protection from misunderstanding
  529. # [17:14] <webben> perhaps
  530. # [17:14] <Philip`> (At least Gandi doesn't have a blue-on-white website with stock photos of smiling people like pretty much every other internet service company, so that's a good sign)
  531. # [17:15] <Philip`> webben: If it was necessary to prevent documents being processed incorrectly, shouldn't it be a MUST rather than a SHOULD?
  532. # [17:15] <webben> Philip`: hmm, very good point!
  533. # [17:15] <hsivonen> Philip`: yes, for more flexible virtual hosting than what I have now
  534. # [17:16] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  535. # [17:17] <annevk> webben, without processing model and MUST requirement that's kind of moot
  536. # [17:18] <annevk> webben, hence my question
  537. # [17:18] <webben> yep
  538. # [17:19] <annevk> but that group is known for failing on proper specs
  539. # [17:20] <webben> i wonder if they're just following http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#ext-version
  540. # [17:24] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-293845be02e7139f)
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  542. # [17:37] <Philip`> hsivonen: Sounds like it might not be strict invitation-only, if I interpret http://www.gandibar.net/post/2008/09/02/Hosting-maintenance#comments saying "you can always request some shares now and we try to accommodate people where possible" as meaning they can make exceptions if you ask nicely
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  560. # [19:08] * gsnedders finds bug in RFC3987
  561. # [19:16] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Success)
  562. # [19:18] <Dashiva> "Note that the XML/HTML DOM consistency issue is not real, so it's worth focusing on the prefix issue."
  563. # [19:18] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  564. # [19:18] <annevk> I wasn't sure what he meant by that
  565. # [19:19] <annevk> One explanation suggests browser vendors are delusional, which I think is not true (but then I'm biased)
  566. # [19:20] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  567. # [19:29] <MikeSmith> I think Ben wrote that with the intent of somebody replying to ask what he meant by it
  568. # [19:34] * Quits: hallvors (n=hallvord@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  569. # [19:34] * annevk isn't really interested in asking :)
  570. # [19:35] * annevk has seen too much RDFa e-mails lately all duplicating lots of info
  571. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> I guess statements like "You want monolithic, top-down, one solution-fits-all. I want the Web." don't make me inclined to be interested in asking for more details either
  572. # [19:37] <Dashiva> The irony in RDF being "The Web" is overwhelming
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  587. # [21:20] <Philip`> I wish I could tell Google never to return results from www.faqs.org when I search for RFCs, because they have a giant font and are impossible to read and I'd much prefer the IETF's copies
  588. # [21:22] <hsivonen> Philip`: you need to link to tools.ietf.org more
  589. # [21:23] <Philip`> That's a horribly indirect inefficient way to get the desired result
  590. # [21:24] <annevk> -site:faqs.org
  591. # [21:24] <annevk> or site:tools.ietf.org
  592. # [21:25] <Philip`> That's far too much typing on every query
  593. # [21:25] <annevk> you can make a shortcut for it in Opera
  594. # [21:25] <smedero> inject it with your user-scripting plugin (greasemonkey, etc) of choice
  595. # [21:26] <smedero> or, yes that's probably easier
  596. # [21:26] <Philip`> I don't like using shortcuts, it feels like cheating :-(
  597. # [21:26] * Joins: jdandrea (n=jdandrea@ool-44c09d7b.dyn.optonline.net)
  598. # [21:26] <annevk> Philip`, fail
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  600. # [21:28] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  601. # [21:28] <annevk> something like http://www.google.com/search?q=rfc%s+site:tools.ietf.org&btnI=on as bookmark shortcut should work
  602. # [21:28] * annevk makes one now as it seems useful
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  604. # [21:31] <gsnedders> I need to learn to type
  605. # [21:31] <annevk> Philip`, thanks for the idea
  606. # [21:31] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  607. # [21:32] <annevk> "rfc 3987" now takes me to http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3987
  608. # [21:33] <Philip`> gsnedders: Try http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B001AZ7Q10/
  609. # [21:33] <gsnedders> Philip`: :P
  610. # [21:34] <Philip`> '"Mavis Beacon" is not a real person' - Wikipedia's destroying my world-view again :-(
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  617. # [21:57] <Dashiva> Philip`: Next they'll claim Hixie is just the alias of two dozen Google engineers
  618. # [22:00] <annevk> http://thebjoernhoehrmannproject.org/
  619. # [22:03] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.118.219.205)
  620. # [22:04] <Philip`> Dashiva: That would make sense - they could all pool their 20% time together, and arrange it to look like a single real person
  621. # [22:16] <gsnedders> Dashiva: IT is.
  622. # [22:16] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-fb4c81e147b8592a)
  623. # [22:16] <gsnedders> *It
  624. # [22:16] <gsnedders> Dashiva: How else does it barely sleep?
  625. # [22:17] <Dashiva> Adrenaline IV
  626. # [22:22] <gsnedders> WHY DO YOU HAVE TO GIVE ME A BLOODY USERNAME?
  627. # [22:22] <gsnedders> sorry.
  628. # [22:22] <gsnedders> But ARGH.
  629. # [22:23] <Dashiva> I wonder if we'll ever stop calling people 'users'
  630. # [22:23] <Dashiva> Only two businesses, etc
  631. # [22:24] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  632. # [22:24] <annevk> that's why Hixie always talks about "we" and "us"
  633. # [22:24] <annevk> makes sense now
  634. # [22:26] <gsnedders> I would never use "gmsneddon1" as a username.
  635. # [22:27] <Dashiva> Putting numbers in usernames is an abomination
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  637. # [22:33] <hober> I only put the 0 in hober0 because gmail had a 6-char minimum username length requirement.
  638. # [22:35] <gsnedders> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-iri/2008Sep/0000.html
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  640. # [22:39] <gsnedders> Anyone got any ideas?
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  646. # [22:52] <Lachy> Hixie, do not upgrade to iTunes 8. Requiem 1.7.4 no longer works with it
  647. # [22:54] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-155-4.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  648. # [22:54] <Lachy> http://yadayada.org/wordpress/?p=26
  649. # [22:55] <Hixie> oh right i forgot today was new ipod day
  650. # [22:55] * Hixie goes to see if the video is available yet
  651. # [22:57] * gsnedders just buys CDs
  652. # [22:57] <Hixie> hsivonen: that thread was not on my radar but i don't know what i would have done differently if it was
  653. # [22:58] <Hixie> gsnedders: for audio i just buy unencrypted audio
  654. # [22:58] <Hixie> but there's no way to buy unencrypted video
  655. # [23:00] <Lachy> the new iPod nanos look cool
  656. # [23:01] <Lachy> I'm waiting for the keynote though, it says it's coming soon
  657. # [23:02] <sicking> Lachy, got a good link to read about the new ipods?
  658. # [23:02] <Lachy> http://www.apple.com/itunes/
  659. # [23:02] <sicking> :)
  660. # [23:02] <Lachy> video here http://www.apple.com/ipodnano/
  661. # [23:03] <gsnedders> brb
  662. # [23:03] <sicking> wow, perdy colors
  663. # [23:03] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-142-195-253.range86-142.btcentralplus.com) ("Killin' teh intarwebs")
  664. # [23:04] <sicking> wow, i guess accelerometers must be cheap these days
  665. # [23:10] <Hixie> doesn't look like today's annoncements were all that
  666. # [23:11] <annevk> nothing interesting
  667. # [23:13] <Hixie> i wonder why the quicktime plugin doesn't work in my safari
  668. # [23:13] <Hixie> works fine in mozilla
  669. # [23:13] <sicking> the new nano looks pretty sweet, but no, nothing revolutionary
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  673. # [23:19] <sicking> still new iphone nano with a roll-out digital-paper screen :(
  674. # [23:19] <sicking> s/new/no/
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  677. # [23:21] <sicking> annevk, so i think we might need to bring back the header blacklist in AC :(
  678. # [23:21] <sicking> annevk, and blacklist 'cookie' and 'authorization'
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  682. # [23:27] <Hixie> how can ou set cookie and authorization cross-site? that seems bad
  683. # [23:27] <Hixie> surely that's not possible
  684. # [23:27] <Hixie> can you set host?
  685. # [23:28] <sicking> Hixie, xhr.setRequestHeader("cookie", "hello world")
  686. # [23:28] <sicking> currently no spec forbids that if the site opts in
  687. # [23:28] <Dashiva> Geez, Ben is already appealing to process
  688. # [23:28] <annevk> sicking, XHR forbids that
  689. # [23:28] <sicking> annevk, really?
  690. # [23:28] <Hixie> i highly doubt that anne intentionally made that possible
  691. # [23:29] <annevk> sicking, well, it should
  692. # [23:29] <annevk> and does
  693. # [23:29] <annevk> see http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest/#setrequestheader
  694. # [23:29] <sicking> annevk, doesn't currently. Are you proposing that for same-site as well?
  695. # [23:29] <sicking> oh
  696. # [23:30] <sicking> when was that list updated?
  697. # [23:30] <annevk> long time ago
  698. # [23:30] <annevk> seems XHR2 has some <dfn> problem for setRequestHeader :/
  699. # [23:31] <annevk> though I did add Access-Control-Request-Headers/Method a few days ago
  700. # [23:31] <sicking> hrm
  701. # [23:31] <annevk> (in XHR2)
  702. # [23:31] <sicking> we recently updated our blacklist, but apparently didn't get those
  703. # [23:31] <annevk> sicking, same-site too, yes
  704. # [23:31] <sicking> wonder why
  705. # [23:31] <annevk> sicking, there was some discussion around this with abarth and collinjackson
  706. # [23:32] <sicking> annevk, ah, adam did the updating of our list
  707. # [23:32] * Quits: roc (n=chatzill@121-72-162-122.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  708. # [23:32] <sicking> annevk, what was the argument against?
  709. # [23:33] <sicking> annevk, and is there currently agreement?
  710. # [23:35] <annevk> I don't think there was an argument against, although I believe IE either only blocks Cookie or just Cookie2
  711. # [23:35] <annevk> (for same site)
  712. # [23:35] <sicking> so what was the discussion about?
  713. # [23:35] <annevk> there's no real agreement on any of the specifics of XHR as browsers seem reluctant to fix bugs :/
  714. # [23:35] * sicking wonders why adam didn't add the full list in his patch
  715. # [23:36] <annevk> sicking, well, abarth and collinjackson proposing to block it and me agreeing and nobody else complaining :)
  716. # [23:36] <sicking> ah :)
  717. # [23:36] <sicking> bummer, i guess we'll have to patch the branch again :(
  718. # [23:37] <sicking> annevk, i don't think there has been reluctance, just uncertainty how stable the spec is
  719. # [23:37] <sicking> annevk, at least from us
  720. # [23:37] <annevk> fair enough, it does change now and then based on feedback
  721. # [23:37] <annevk> quite a lot based on feedback from ap (WebKit) a year ago or so
  722. # [23:37] <sicking> annevk, yup, makes sense, but we need to get it to last call and then to candidate
  723. # [23:38] <sicking> also, has there been any plan devised to get MS on board?
  724. # [23:38] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@e179088209.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070208]")
  725. # [23:39] <annevk> hmm, same plan as for <canvas>? get devs to cry for it
  726. # [23:40] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  727. # [23:41] <sicking> ideal would be if we could find a faster way
  728. # [23:41] * Philip` isn't sure that really counts as a plan
  729. # [23:42] * Joins: aroben_ (n=adamrobe@nat/apple/x-e92ec421ee10ee6f)
  730. # [23:42] <annevk> Acid4? *blink*
  731. # [23:43] <Hixie> ?
  732. # [23:43] <annevk> getting IE to support XHR2
  733. # [23:43] <Hixie> oh
  734. # [23:43] <Hixie> yeah well i'd rather they supported DOM2 Core before we started talking about new features
  735. # [23:43] <Hixie> and DOM2 Events
  736. # [23:43] <sicking> XHR1 rather
  737. # [23:44] <Hixie> and HTML4
  738. # [23:44] <Hixie> and XML
  739. # [23:44] <Hixie> you know
  740. # [23:44] <Hixie> stuff from the late 90s
  741. # [23:44] <annevk> boring
  742. # [23:44] <annevk> :p
  743. # [23:45] <sicking> annevk, btw, did you see my two feature requests for XHR2?
  744. # [23:45] <sicking> annevk, it's very likely that we'll add some of that in FF3.1
  745. # [23:45] <gsnedders> Applying for uni is annoying
  746. # [23:45] <annevk> sicking, I asked about use cases
  747. # [23:46] <sicking> as far as MS goes, i'd rather find a better way than drag them against their will
  748. # [23:46] <jcranmer> gsnedders: tell me about it... yuck
  749. # [23:46] <Dashiva> Hixie: "Naturally though, we shouldn't "
  750. # [23:46] <annevk> sicking, http://www.w3.org/mid/op.ugz0bk2k64w2qv@annevk-t60.oslo.opera.com
  751. # [23:46] <sicking> annevk, you did? where?
  752. # [23:46] <Hixie> oops
  753. # [23:46] * jcranmer reiterates his opinion on browsers supporting WF2
  754. # [23:47] <jcranmer> s/on browsers supporting/that browsers should support/
  755. # [23:47] <sicking> hmm.. why didn't i get that mail
  756. # [23:47] <annevk> JSON is sort of scary as although it is a standard I believe there are quite a few differences between implementations... Also, it doesn't handle that many types...
  757. # [23:48] <sicking> hmm.. i blame gmail
  758. # [23:48] <annevk> (eg, allowing comments versus not allowing comments)
  759. # [23:48] <Hixie> JSON is a very loose "standard"
  760. # [23:48] <sicking> i don't have that mail at all
  761. # [23:48] <annevk> :/
  762. # [23:48] <Dashiva> annevk: There's the full spectrum from RFC-JSON to whatever-js-eval-supports-ON
  763. # [23:48] <annevk> I wonder if Gmail classifies my e-mail as spam sometimes
  764. # [23:49] <sicking> i have a bunch of other mails from that day
  765. # [23:49] <sicking> doesn't look like it's in the spam folder either
  766. # [23:49] <annevk> weird
  767. # [23:51] <sicking> annevk, can you resend to me personally so i can reply?
  768. # [23:52] <annevk> done
  769. # [23:54] <sicking> hmm.. now i see it
  770. # [23:54] <sicking> dunno if it's your newly sent one
  771. # [23:54] <sicking> and i got the test mail
  772. # [23:55] <annevk> that was a mistake
  773. # [23:55] <sicking> heh
  774. # [23:58] * Quits: aroben (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  775. # [23:59] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-fb4c81e147b8592a)
  776. # [23:59] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-98f723d8c4547bf7)
  777. # Session Close: Wed Sep 10 00:00:00 2008

The end :)