/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-09-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 10 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <annevk> sicking, long ago timeout came up as well and people proposed send(data, timeout) as syntax
  4. # [00:02] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-155-4.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  5. # [00:03] <sicking> annevk, I don't really care I guess, but it seems like .timeout makes a little more sense since the timeout isn't really related to the send() call any more than the open() call
  6. # [00:03] <sicking> annevk, sent reply
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  8. # [00:03] <annevk> hmm, sync
  9. # [00:03] <annevk> don't use sync!
  10. # [00:03] * annevk wonders if workers have timeouts
  11. # [00:04] <smedero> I think Dashiva and I already had the "JSON implementations are crazy" discussion with DanC... see: http://deron.meranda.us/python/comparing_json_modules/
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  14. # [00:06] <annevk> smedero, interesting
  15. # [00:07] <smedero> I know support is just as mixed with PHP...
  16. # [00:07] <Hixie> Lachy: any idea what the story is with reqium and itunes "8"?
  17. # [00:07] <Hixie> requiem
  18. # [00:07] <Hixie> as in, when it'll be fixed?
  19. # [00:08] <Hixie> btw xhr should really be updated to integrate with the event queue stuff
  20. # [00:08] <sicking> annevk, indeed, found another mail from you that got into spam
  21. # [00:08] <Hixie> that would e.g. define whether timers fire during the sync wait
  22. # [00:08] <Lachy> Hixie, no. But I can email the developer and see if he'll tell me
  23. # [00:09] <annevk> Hixie, I guess it should
  24. # [00:09] <annevk> (and timers should not fire during sync)
  25. # [00:09] <sicking> bah, wish i didn't have to use gmails spam filter :(
  26. # [00:10] <sicking> ironport had much lower false-positive and false-negative rates
  27. # [00:10] <Hixie> annevk: that's easy to define then, in fact it's the default, so you just need to say "Note: No tasks from the _task queue_ are processed during this method" or something
  28. # [00:10] <Hixie> btw for workers right now we don't have a good api set, so we don't have sync database apis or timeouts on any of the apis, btu that will likely change eventually
  29. # [00:11] <sicking> annevk, timers would be relatively easy to block during sync. Not sure if we could block UI events in gecko though
  30. # [00:11] <Hixie> you can kind of fake it today by spawning a second worker and killing it on a timeout
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  32. # [00:11] <Hixie> "ui events"?
  33. # [00:11] <Hixie> you mean like onclick in the page aea?
  34. # [00:11] <sicking> mouseover
  35. # [00:11] <Hixie> or in the chrome?
  36. # [00:11] <sicking> well, chrome isn't web, so i don't care what spec says
  37. # [00:12] <sicking> i mean page area
  38. # [00:12] <Hixie> right the spec won't say anything about the chrome area
  39. # [00:12] <Hixie> the page area events is basically defined as a bunch of event queues, right now each one can be pumped independently
  40. # [00:12] <Hixie> so xhr _could_ define that some task queues are pumped and some aren't
  41. # [00:13] <Hixie> though right now no spec defines that 'mouseover' et al are ever actually fired
  42. # [00:13] <sicking> most events don't come from an event queue though
  43. # [00:13] <Hixie> i guess that's either dom events or cssom
  44. # [00:13] <Hixie> sicking: ?
  45. # [00:13] <Hixie> sicking: per html5, all non-synchronous event dispatch goes through the task queue.
  46. # [00:14] <sicking> or rather, they originate there, but by the time they are mouse events we're not on the event queue any more
  47. # [00:14] <sicking> implementation wise
  48. # [00:14] <Hixie> not sure what you mean
  49. # [00:14] <sicking> i'm not saying it's impossible to stall/block/whatever, it's software, anything is possible, but it might be very hard with our impl
  50. # [00:15] <sicking> there's also the question of what to do with other tabs
  51. # [00:15] <Hixie> oh right because you're not pumping your ui thread at all while running script
  52. # [00:15] <sicking> do you still fire events on those
  53. # [00:15] <Hixie> so you get a lot of the blocking for free
  54. # [00:15] <Hixie> i keep forgetting that
  55. # [00:15] <sicking> yup
  56. # [00:15] <sicking> no process separation a'la chrome
  57. # [00:16] <Hixie> well chrome has the same thing actually
  58. # [00:16] <Hixie> i was thinking more opera
  59. # [00:16] <sicking> ah, yes
  60. # [00:16] <sicking> and then there is the issue of separate tabs in the same domain getting UI events
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  62. # [00:17] <annevk> I guess I should look at the task queue tomorrow or maybe later this week
  63. # [00:18] <annevk> I still need to prepare my presentation for Thursday
  64. # [00:18] * Quits: smedero (n=smedero@mdp-nat251.mdp.com)
  65. # [00:18] <Hixie> sicking: yeah well i still need to define exactly how it works but fundamentally pages on the same domain that can talk to each other share an event loop, so that's not a problem (if the loop is paused, it's paused for all the tabs that could talk to each other synchronously)
  66. # [00:18] <Hixie> anyway
  67. # [00:18] <Hixie> bbiab
  68. # [00:19] <sicking> not a problem in the sense that all other pages from the same domain lock up?
  69. # [00:19] <sicking> seems suboptimal
  70. # [00:19] <Hixie> there's really no other way to do it given that they both have access to the same dom, unless you want to make your dom thread-safe
  71. # [00:20] <Hixie> and even that wouldn't be web compatible
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  100. # [01:32] <roc> annevk: so currently the CSSOM spec doesn't have a way to get the size of the viewport excluding any scrollbars it may be showing
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  103. # [01:56] <Lachy> Hixie, yt?
  104. # [01:56] <Hixie> hey
  105. # [01:56] <Lachy> http://html5.lachy.id.au/beta/ now has some functionality
  106. # [01:56] <Lachy> I disabled all the button cause they don't do anything yet
  107. # [01:57] <Lachy> but the basic live dom viewing feature works
  108. # [01:57] <Hixie> can you swap the dom tree and preview windows?
  109. # [01:57] <Hixie> the dom tree window is too small to see anything
  110. # [01:57] <Hixie> and almost always is bigger than the preview
  111. # [01:58] <Lachy> yeah, that's easy to do
  112. # [02:00] <Lachy> done
  113. # [02:01] <Hixie> neat
  114. # [02:02] <Lachy> I'll add the clipboard function now, that won't take long
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  116. # [02:09] <Hixie> othermaciej, roc: i spoke to the people who are experimenting with sdch, asked them about numbers, and they said they're experimenting with that right now trying to find good ways to compress data and so forth, trying to see how it works with proxies, caches, etc, and should have more concrete numbers in the coming months
  117. # [02:09] <roc> ta
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  119. # [02:12] <othermaciej> Hixie: ok; hard to evaluate the value of pursuing the technology as a standard without some data
  120. # [02:12] <othermaciej> I'll give it some review once there is more data available
  121. # [02:12] <Hixie> cool
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  124. # [02:15] <aboodman> sicking: you rang?
  125. # [02:17] <sicking> aboodman, hey so we have a quick question
  126. # [02:17] <sicking> aboodman, does gears let you create workers from inside a worker?
  127. # [02:17] <aboodman> yes
  128. # [02:17] <sicking> ben wants to know why
  129. # [02:18] <sicking> ben is the guy implementing our workers
  130. # [02:18] <aboodman> ben who?
  131. # [02:18] <aboodman> ok
  132. # [02:18] <sicking> he is not happy about this idea :)
  133. # [02:18] <Hixie> what's difficult about it?
  134. # [02:18] <sicking> and that hooks up the the whole error chain thing?
  135. # [02:18] <aboodman> to be honest, it isn't something i'm passionate about
  136. # [02:18] <sicking> Hixie, nothing's difficult really
  137. # [02:18] <Hixie> ah ok
  138. # [02:19] <aboodman> i think that it is just something that made sense to generalize
  139. # [02:19] <Lachy> Hixie, the clipboard feature works now, though it has a known bug with not updating the DOM tree after using Retrieve
  140. # [02:19] <sicking> i think bens concern is basically that it allows a page to create very complicated things. I.e. trees of workers
  141. # [02:19] <sicking> me, i love it :)
  142. # [02:19] <aboodman> i think that a tree is not the right way to think about it
  143. # [02:19] <sicking> it lets me calculate fibanacci in crazy complicated ways :)
  144. # [02:20] <aboodman> i can't remember what the current state is in the proposed spec
  145. # [02:20] <aboodman> but at one time, workers had this elegant property that they weren't really trees
  146. # [02:20] <sicking> ah, right, you had these ids
  147. # [02:20] <sicking> so you could really communicate with anyone else
  148. # [02:21] <aboodman> right, not ids, but names
  149. # [02:21] <sicking> not just the workers that you created
  150. # [02:21] <aboodman> and you could even pass a port pointing to one worker to another, and make it stay alive longer
  151. # [02:21] <sicking> oh, the docs said 'id'
  152. # [02:21] <aboodman> i'm talking about hixie's original draft, not gears
  153. # [02:21] <sicking> you mean in current spec, or in gears
  154. # [02:21] <sicking> ah
  155. # [02:21] <Hixie> the spec still has that
  156. # [02:21] <sicking> i meant gears
  157. # [02:21] <Hixie> in that you can create a MessageChannel
  158. # [02:21] <Hixie> and hand the ends to two workers
  159. # [02:22] <sicking> right
  160. # [02:22] <sicking> so about this error thingy
  161. # [02:22] <aboodman> you're asking about onerror?
  162. # [02:22] <sicking> well, now i am :)
  163. # [02:22] <Hixie> right now onerror in the spec doesn't propagate more than one level out
  164. # [02:22] <Hixie> and in fact right now it doesn't even forward exceptions
  165. # [02:22] <sicking> initially i think i was just curious if gears (not spec) allowed workers to create workers
  166. # [02:23] <aboodman> yes
  167. # [02:23] <aboodman> and in gears, workers are arranged in trees
  168. # [02:23] <aboodman> and exceptions propagate up
  169. # [02:23] * dglazkov is now known as dglazkov|cooking
  170. # [02:23] <Hixie> (though i think it would make sense to fire error events for exceptions, and make the default action of that event be to propagate to the higher level)
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  172. # [02:23] <sicking> Hixie, yeah, i agree
  173. # [02:24] <sicking> the case for workers within workers that i've been thinking of is if you parse a word document which references external documents
  174. # [02:24] <sicking> you could start up a worker to parse the external (or embedded) resource
  175. # [02:24] <sicking> in which case you'd want to know if that worker fails somehow
  176. # [02:25] <Hixie> yeah
  177. # [02:25] <Hixie> i've filed a bug to make me add that
  178. # [02:25] <Hixie> you can always implement it in the meantime using exception handlers of course
  179. # [02:25] <Hixie> i mean, an author can
  180. # [02:27] <sicking> right
  181. # [02:29] * dglazkov|cooking is now known as dglazkov|away
  182. # [02:29] * Hixie looks at the w3c's debates on membership fees
  183. # [02:29] <sicking> so there is one thing that is sort of unfortunate
  184. # [02:29] <Hixie> maybe we should charge membership fees for whatwg
  185. # [02:29] <sicking> with the way exception handlers would work
  186. # [02:29] <Hixie> i need a new mac mini for my living room
  187. # [02:30] <sicking> Hixie, excellent idea. And the money can go towards the people implementing the specs :)
  188. # [02:30] <Hixie> if we follow the w3c model, it's the people implementing the specs who pay :-)
  189. # [02:30] <sicking> ugh
  190. # [02:31] <sicking> so these error events are sort of like exceptions, right
  191. # [02:31] <Hixie> sort of
  192. # [02:31] <Hixie> we could even clone the actual exception and put it as a member of the event object
  193. # [02:31] <Hixie> event.exception
  194. # [02:31] <sicking> you can catch them by having a handler, otherwise it bubbles up to be handled by someone higher up
  195. # [02:31] <sicking> and ultimately, if unhandled everywhere, gets logged
  196. # [02:31] <Hixie> not technically bubbling, but yeah, effectively
  197. # [02:31] <Hixie> right
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  199. # [02:32] <sicking> so one difference is that for exceptions, if you have a catch block, just having the catch prevents the error from propagating
  200. # [02:32] <aboodman> Hixie: is this only for non-shared workers?
  201. # [02:32] <aboodman> because i don't understand what "higher level" means for shared workers
  202. # [02:32] <aboodman> as they currently exist in the spec
  203. # [02:32] <sicking> aboodman, agreed
  204. # [02:33] <Hixie> aboodman: yes, SharedWorker objects don't have an onerror
  205. # [02:33] <sicking> but with error handlers, you would have to explicitly prevent "bubbling" by calling event.preventDefault()
  206. # [02:33] <Hixie> sicking: right
  207. # [02:33] <sicking> even if you have a handler
  208. # [02:33] <sicking> this seems unfortunate
  209. # [02:33] <Hixie> sicking: yes
  210. # [02:34] <Hixie> dunno that we can do anything about it though
  211. # [02:34] <Hixie> how does <body onerror=""> work?
  212. # [02:34] <Hixie> that's not an event
  213. # [02:34] <Hixie> does it not need to be canceled?
  214. # [02:35] <sicking> hmm.. i'm not really sure when that fires, it might even fire after the logging has taken place
  215. # [02:35] <sicking> (which would otherwise be the default action)
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  217. # [02:35] <Hixie> apparently returning true prevents the default action
  218. # [02:36] <Hixie> so if you use worker.onerror, you'd just need to return true (or false or whatever) to prevent the default
  219. # [02:36] <Hixie> as opposed to calling preventDefault()
  220. # [02:36] <Hixie> like with any event handler
  221. # [02:36] <Hixie> in fact
  222. # [02:36] <sicking> true
  223. # [02:36] <Hixie> you only need preventDefault() when you use addEventListener()
  224. # [02:36] * sicking proxies to ben
  225. # [02:36] <Hixie> heh
  226. # [02:36] <Hixie> get ben to come online :-)
  227. # [02:37] <Hixie> brb moving building
  228. # [02:37] <aboodman> sicking: are you guys implementing both shared and non-shared workers?
  229. # [02:37] <aboodman> also are you planning to implement messagechannels
  230. # [02:37] <aboodman> (as in new MessageChannel())
  231. # [02:41] <sicking> probably no shared and no channels for now :(
  232. # [02:41] <sicking> due to time constraints
  233. # [02:41] <sicking> aboodman, ^
  234. # [02:42] <aboodman> k
  235. # [02:42] <sicking> and possibly no localStore
  236. # [02:42] <sicking> but xhr is mostly working
  237. # [02:42] <sicking> should work fine with cross-site xhr even
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  245. # [03:26] <billyjack> does anybody have appcache test cases online?
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  319. # [09:28] <aboodman> sicking: in the house?
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  367. # [11:11] <zcorpan> problem: i want to make people happier. solution: RDFa.
  368. # [11:11] <annevk> result: fail
  369. # [11:11] <annevk> .
  370. # [11:11] <zcorpan> dang
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  379. # [11:13] <zcorpan> alternative solution: give people money.
  380. # [11:14] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  381. # [11:14] <annevk> I'm not sure that works long term
  382. # [11:14] <annevk> btw, Firefox <video> impl fails a bit on http://people.opera.com/howcome/2007/video/wikipedia/macaw.html (pressing stop, play, etc.)
  383. # [11:14] <annevk> though it works good enough for a demo
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  385. # [11:15] <zcorpan> is working long term a requirement?
  386. # [11:15] <annevk> (it also doesn't determine the size correctly until the video starts playing)
  387. # [11:15] <annevk> I think so
  388. # [11:15] <zcorpan> dang
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  392. # [11:22] * zcorpan wonders why he is reading RDFa emails
  393. # [11:23] <annevk> dom
  394. # [11:24] <annevk> (dubbele betekenis bedoelt :) )
  395. # [11:25] <hsivonen> I'd be more happy if people gave me (notable) money than RDF
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  397. # [11:25] * [1]Maghnus is now known as Maghnus
  398. # [11:26] <jgraham> hsivonen: Presumably the RDF equivalent would be allowing everyone to mint their own currency
  399. # [11:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: I think there are bad historical precedents with that approach
  400. # [11:27] <annevk> and DNS is like gold?
  401. # [11:27] <annevk> (like gold used to be, that is)
  402. # [11:28] <hsivonen> annevk: but if you use URIs only for identification without resolving them, DNS becomes like gold now :-)
  403. # [11:28] <annevk> haha
  404. # [11:28] <Hixie> was there much RDF talk
  405. # [11:28] <Hixie> ?
  406. # [11:28] <Hixie> i thought it was just a brief bit of process talk
  407. # [11:30] <annevk> well, a week ago or so there was
  408. # [11:30] <Hixie> oh
  409. # [11:30] <Hixie> i thought people were saying they were reading abotu rdfa today
  410. # [11:31] <zcorpan> Hixie: i was
  411. # [11:31] * zcorpan is catching up on email
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  420. # [11:53] * Hixie updates the rdfa wiki page to indicate the problems more obviously
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  424. # [12:02] <hsivonen> are developers supposed to build federated facebook-like apps with FOAF?
  425. # [12:06] <hsivonen> I wonder how much overlap there is between Lips folks and RDF folks
  426. # [12:06] <hsivonen> Lisp
  427. # [12:07] <hsivonen> Lisp and RDF both have very simple core concepts
  428. # [12:07] <hsivonen> and both aren't mainstream
  429. # [12:07] <hsivonen> both are harder to grok than mainstream stuff
  430. # [12:07] <hsivonen> and the mainstream stuff keep reinventing things that Lisp and RDF had years ago
  431. # [12:08] <Hixie> foaf has near zero uptake so far
  432. # [12:08] <Hixie> xfn has quite a lot, though that's somewhat biased by wordpress
  433. # [12:08] <Hixie> (foaf's only notable user is livejournal, as i understand it, which also does xfn)
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  435. # [12:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: does livejournal consume FOAF?
  436. # [12:09] <hsivonen> OTOH, Lisp is very much about minimalist syntax
  437. # [12:10] <hsivonen> whereas RDF's first attempt at syntax wasn't minimalist at all and RDF tries to pretend it isn't about syntax
  438. # [12:10] * jmb^ is now known as jmb
  439. # [12:10] <Hixie> i don't think lj consumes foaf no
  440. # [12:10] <hsivonen> what kind of software consumes FOAF?
  441. # [12:11] <Hixie> google's social stuff consumes foaf
  442. # [12:11] <hsivonen> and lisp has short identifiers
  443. # [12:11] <hsivonen> like cons
  444. # [12:11] <Hixie> (for now, anyway)
  445. # [12:11] <hsivonen> instead of http://ai.mit.edu/lisp/namespace/cons
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  447. # [12:11] <Hixie> i wonder if we should fire onsubmit before or after validating the form
  448. # [12:11] <Hixie> i guess after makes sense
  449. # [12:12] <Hixie> if onsubmit does something like disable the submit button
  450. # [12:12] <hsivonen> what does Opera do?
  451. # [12:12] <Hixie> wf2 says after
  452. # [12:12] <Hixie> i don't know what opera does
  453. # [12:14] <Lachy> I like how, in the Generic_Metadata_Mechanisms wiki page, one of the requirements is "Inlinability", yet the proposal with the most pro's (using an external resource) doesn't meet that requirement :-)
  454. # [12:15] <Hixie> the proposals were supposed to be "and"ed, i believe
  455. # [12:16] <Lachy> oh
  456. # [12:16] <Lachy> then a con for the whole lot is that it is overly complex to have them all
  457. # [12:16] <Hixie> quite possibly
  458. # [12:16] <Hixie> i don't really care what the proposals are
  459. # [12:16] <Lachy> and redundant to have "Inline (as multiple attributes)" and "Inline (in a single attribute)"
  460. # [12:17] <Hixie> it's the actual problem and the resulting requirements that matter
  461. # [12:17] <Hixie> feel free to edit
  462. # [12:17] <Lachy> yeah, but they haven't filled out the problem yet
  463. # [12:17] <Hixie> i know
  464. # [12:17] <Lachy> I would if I knew what the problem was
  465. # [12:17] <annevk> the primary RDF advocates haven't touched that page
  466. # [12:18] <Hixie> so it seems
  467. # [12:18] <Hixie> i wish they would
  468. # [12:19] <Hixie> the 'submit' event bubbles? wow
  469. # [12:19] <Hixie> who'da thought
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  477. # [13:07] <Hixie> nn
  478. # [13:08] <hsivonen> nn
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  482. # [13:26] <hsivonen> should jslint be considered a legitimate general JS validator or a manifestation of Douglas Crockfords personal opinions?
  483. # [13:28] <hsivonen> Problem at line 59 character 25: 'installHandlers' was used before it was defined.
  484. # [13:28] <hsivonen> are forward references a real problem in JS?
  485. # [13:28] <Lachy> hsivonen, not for functions
  486. # [13:29] <Lachy> only variables have to be declared before you can use them
  487. # [13:29] <hsivonen> So Doug Crockford doesn't like semicolon omission
  488. # [13:30] <hsivonen> does semicolon omission now suck officially, or is it just one person's opinion?
  489. # [13:30] <Lachy> semi-colon omission is considered bad practice
  490. # [13:30] <hsivonen> :-(
  491. # [13:30] <Lachy> (although, that's just my opinion too)
  492. # [13:30] <hsivonen> and I made an effort to try to be pythonic and avoid the silly semicolons
  493. # [13:30] <Lachy> javascript is not pything
  494. # [13:31] <othermaciej> I'd say in a real script, I would include the semicolons
  495. # [13:31] <Lachy> python*
  496. # [13:31] <hsivonen> Crockford did have some good reasons for using semicolons though
  497. # [13:31] <othermaciej> there's real pitfalls to skipping them
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  499. # [13:31] <hdh> fwiw js2-mode also flag semicollon omission
  500. # [13:31] <othermaciej> but for a one-liner event listener they are ok
  501. # [13:32] <Lachy> what are the conditions under which semi colons are allowed to be omitted?
  502. # [13:32] <othermaciej> onclick="callSomething(event)"
  503. # [13:32] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  504. # [13:32] <hsivonen> can Aptana or something insert semicolons for me?
  505. # [13:32] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  506. # [13:32] <othermaciej> if there's a line break you can generally omit the semicolon unless it might look like the next line could continue the statement
  507. # [13:32] <othermaciej> so ++ and -- are dangerous
  508. # [13:32] * hsivonen uninstalled Aptana because it seemed to leak memory
  509. # [13:33] <othermaciej> since they can be either prefix or postfix operators
  510. # [13:34] * annevk also writes pythonic JavaScript
  511. # [13:35] <hsivonen> I guess it's less controversial if I implement links to the CSS Validator and leave JSLint out for now
  512. # [13:37] <Lachy> when I write python, I tend to write it more like JavaScript :-)
  513. # [13:39] <Lachy> hey, with CSS3 Media Queries, the spec has this BNF: media_query: [[only | not]? <media_type> [ and <expression> ]*] | <expression> [ and <expression> ]*
  514. # [13:39] <Lachy> I'm wondering what the OR (|) operator applies to. Is it equivalent to: media_query: [[only | not]? <media_type> ([ and <expression> ]*]) | (<expression> [ and <expression> ]*)
  515. # [13:39] <Lachy> Or ...
  516. # [13:40] <Lachy> media_query: ([[only | not]? <media_type> [ and <expression> ]*]) | (<expression> [ and <expression> ]*)
  517. # [13:41] <othermaciej> Lachy: or has looser binding than sequence in BNF
  518. # [13:41] <annevk> hmm, the first of your equivalents is malformed
  519. # [13:41] <Lachy> if it's the latter, I think that would make this legal: media="(min-width: 100px) and (min-height: 100px)"
  520. # [13:41] <annevk> that is legal
  521. # [13:41] <Lachy> annevk, probably not. I was only using the paretheses to mark the sections that the OR was applying to
  522. # [13:42] <annevk> well, you did it wrong then :)
  523. # [13:42] <othermaciej> in other words, you can either start with a media type (optionally prefixed by only or not)
  524. # [13:42] <othermaciej> or you can start with an expression
  525. # [13:42] <annevk> even if it was not malformed, it would not be less ambiguous
  526. # [13:42] <othermaciej> any number of and <expression> can follow in either case
  527. # [13:42] <othermaciej> that is what the BNF sys anyway
  528. # [13:43] <Lachy> ok. I didn't realise that before. I thought all expressions had to start with a media type
  529. # [13:43] <othermaciej> I am not sure if that was intentional but that appears to be the effect
  530. # [13:43] <annevk> as editor of said spec, i can say it's intentional
  531. # [13:43] <Lachy> there are no examples in the spec that don't start with a media type
  532. # [13:44] <Lachy> annevk, you're not listed as an editor in the /TR/ copy. When did you take it over?
  533. # [13:44] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@hq.last.fm)
  534. # [13:45] <annevk> later
  535. # [13:45] <annevk> you should really read http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-mediaqueries/
  536. # [13:48] <Lachy> ok. I didn't realise it had a public editors draft
  537. # [13:48] * Joins: deane (n=dean@121-72-163-250.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  538. # [13:50] * zcorpan thinks specs at TR/ should point to the editor's draft
  539. # [13:50] <zcorpan> editor's drafts are pretty hard to find
  540. # [13:51] <hsivonen> is there ever a good reason to read TR/ instead of dev.w3.org?
  541. # [13:52] <Lachy> hsivonen, not if the spec is a draft and there is a copy of it on dev.w3.org. But if it's a REC, then reading the TR is reasonable
  542. # [13:53] <hsivonen> Lachy: well, you wouldn't want to read CSS2 instead of CSS 2.1 ED or HTML 4.01 instead of HTML5 ED
  543. # [13:53] <Lachy> but for all the CSS specs, all my bookmarks point to the TR drafts and I'm too lazy to look up the dev.w3.org versions and change them
  544. # [13:53] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  545. # [13:54] <Lachy> it depends on the reason. Sometimes it's useful to look up how some things were defined in HTML4, especially for web developers who are still only writing HTML4 in practice
  546. # [13:55] <Lachy> although, I tend to use both. HTML4 tells me what's valid, HTML5 tells me what it means and how browsers will handle it.
  547. # [13:55] <hsivonen> does anyone have an opinion on whether the usability of http://html5.validator.nu/ would go up or down if the text area and file upload selections had two submit buttons: Validate as HTML and Validate as XML?
  548. # [13:55] * Philip` wants to read HTML 4.01 instead of HTML5 ED, because it's much easier to read and understand
  549. # [13:56] <Philip`> (at least when I'm just trying to write HTML pages)
  550. # [13:56] <hsivonen> it would be much easier to remove HTML 4.01 from Validator.nu if HTML5 allowed the most popular Transitionalisms
  551. # [13:57] <Philip`> hsivonen: Just make it validate as both and report both results - it's quicker for the computer to do that than for the human to choose which button to click :-)
  552. # [13:58] <hsivonen> hmm. Am I just being stupid by having a name attribute on the submit button on Validator.nu and going through all the trouble of disabling and enabling it?
  553. # [13:58] <Philip`> (P.S. That would be a bad idea)
  554. # [13:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: Hixie has suggested something like that
  555. # [13:59] <Philip`> It would just confuse users if the validator said their document was both valid (HTML) and invalid (XHTML)
  556. # [13:59] <Lachy> hsivonen, 2 buttons seem reasonable
  557. # [13:59] <hsivonen> whoa. I've forgotten to implement ruby in the HTML5 schema
  558. # [13:59] <Lachy> although, perhaps it will be a problem for authors who think they're writing XHTML, but still serve it as text/html
  559. # [13:59] <hsivonen> and no one has pointed it out to me
  560. # [14:00] <hsivonen> (unless I've missed the logs or something)
  561. # [14:00] <Philip`> If you have have two buttons, be sure to record stats on how many people use each one, and if almost nobody uses XHTML then you might as well remove it from the default UI
  562. # [14:01] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  563. # [14:01] <hsivonen> having 2 buttons poses the problem of which one which browser will pick as the default
  564. # [14:01] <Philip`> Also you should use onmouseover to record stats of how many times people wave their mouse indecisively between the two buttons, to get some idea of how much time it wastes
  565. # [14:02] <hsivonen> and whether I should put HTML on the right (Mac) or on the left (Windows)
  566. # [14:02] <Philip`> Use UA sniffing to decide
  567. # [14:03] <Philip`> Or put one below the other
  568. # [14:04] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  569. # [14:04] <Philip`> Or have a <select> to choose HTML/XHTML, since few people will use XHTML and so the extra clicks are not significant
  570. # [14:04] <hsivonen> does anyone happen to know if getResourceAsStream stuff in jars is subject to Java package/class naming restrictions?
  571. # [14:09] <deane> hsivonen: put the html button on the left, people usually say "html and xhtml", not "xhtml and html", and most people read from left to right, so have html first, then xhtml. Kinda makes sense to me anyway :)
  572. # [14:09] <zcorpan> hsivonen: just support HTML and let people use the generic interface for XHTML :)
  573. # [14:09] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@hq.last.fm)
  574. # [14:11] <hsivonen> deane: for LTR text, putting the default on the right (as on Mac) actually makes sense, since that's where the eye is going
  575. # [14:11] <deane> hsivonen: OK. But maybe it's best just to have the radio buttons instead
  576. # [14:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I want to add SVG 1.1 support to the HTML5 facet, though.
  577. # [14:13] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  578. # [14:15] <hsivonen> looks like the validator behavior isn't graceful if a blank file upload field is submitted
  579. # [14:15] <annevk> can't you just have two small links at the bottom: "Also from Validator.nu: XHTML Validator & Advanced Validator"
  580. # [14:16] <hsivonen> annevk: yes, I intend to do that RSN
  581. # [14:16] <annevk> define:RSN
  582. # [14:16] <hsivonen> Real Soon Now
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  585. # [14:17] <zcorpan> hsivonen: why? most people don't use svg
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  587. # [14:17] <deane> hsivonen: you wouldn't need an "HTML/XHTML" option for file upload right? Doesn't V.nu just decide between HTML and XHTML based on the file extension?
  588. # [14:18] <hsivonen> zcorpan: SVG is a real Web technology supported by 2 or more of the top 4 engines, and detecting it on root ns is easy for the URI validation case
  589. # [14:18] * Joins: Maurice (n=ano@a80-100-71-209.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  590. # [14:18] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yes but for textarea
  591. # [14:19] <zcorpan> hsivonen: perhaps if the first token is "svg" you switch to xml mode :)
  592. # [14:19] <zcorpan> (first start tag token)
  593. # [14:19] <Philip`> What you need is doctypes
  594. # [14:19] <hsivonen> deane: good point. It already looks at the filename extension.
  595. # [14:19] <hsivonen> I forgot :-)
  596. # [14:20] <Philip`> Inline metadata is far more reliable than external metadata that's bound to get separated from the data and will force the user to re-enter it multiple times whenever they try to process the data
  597. # [14:21] <hsivonen> Validator.nu now doesn't disable the submit button on submit
  598. # [14:21] <hsivonen> better? worse?
  599. # [14:22] <zcorpan> hsivonen: better because you can submit several times when it's too slow :)
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  602. # [14:25] <annevk> and because when you hit back it might not be undone
  603. # [14:26] <annevk> and because then you can quickly fix a typo and hit submit again, etc.
  604. # [14:26] <hsivonen> I still disable the other fields that I want to omit from the dataset
  605. # [14:27] <hsivonen> because it would be confusing if those weren't fixed on back button but there was no visual feedback about it
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  607. # [14:35] <deane> hsivonen: Although, that brings up another problem that I've been wondering about lately. What if some one is editing a XHTML5 document that they don't want validated as XHTML5, but want validated as HTML5 because they are going to serialize it to text/html before sending over the wire. So I wonder if V.nu needs to cater for someone who says: Validate my XHTML5 document in HTML5 (text/html)...
  608. # [14:35] <deane> ...compatible mode please, if you know what I mean.
  609. # [14:35] <hsivonen> deane: V.nu should support that via the complex interface
  610. # [14:35] <hsivonen> deane: I don't want that case complicating the simple interface
  611. # [14:36] <hsivonen> deane: check the lax type box and select the parser manually
  612. # [14:37] <deane> hsivonen: cool, I just wondered if it had that feature, that's all
  613. # [14:38] <Lachy> I started adding use cases for accessibility to the wiki http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Video_accessibility#Selection_Mechanisms
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  616. # [14:53] <hsivonen> hmm. http://code.google.com/p/concentre-xforms/
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  620. # [15:13] <hsivonen> so... when XForms JS libraries start using colon in names in text/html, does it mean does colon-based NS processing in the browser level in text/html is even less of an option than it used to be?
  621. # [15:20] <Lachy> hsivonen, it was already not an option at all. If it's possible to be less of an option than that, then yes
  622. # [15:23] <JohnResig> Lachy: does Opera 9.6 have querySelectorAll?
  623. # [15:23] <JohnResig> Lachy: does Opera 9.6 have querySelectorAll?
  624. # [15:23] * Joins: svl_ (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  625. # [15:23] <JohnResig> oops
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  627. # [15:25] <JohnResig> hmm, doesn't seem to in the release notes, at least: http://www.opera.com/docs/changelogs/windows/960b1/
  628. # [15:25] <hsivonen> no video it seems...
  629. # [15:26] <JohnResig> it seems like a bug fix release
  630. # [15:26] * hsivonen sees Added Core version (currently "Presto/2.1.1") to the User Agent header
  631. # [15:26] <Lachy> JohnResig, I cannot comment on future product releases
  632. # [15:26] <JohnResig> Lachy: it's not really future - I was just wondering about the beta release
  633. # [15:26] <Lachy> oh, I didn't know the beta was released
  634. # [15:26] <Lachy> that's a desktop thing, which I don't work with
  635. # [15:27] <hsivonen> Lachy: what do you work with?
  636. # [15:27] <virtuelv> JohnResig: 9.60 does not support querySelectorAll, no
  637. # [15:27] <JohnResig> virtuelv: k
  638. # [15:27] <Lachy> I work in QA Core, using gogi
  639. # [15:28] <Lachy> like the Acid 3 build we released a while back. it's basically just the core of the browser with a minimal UI
  640. # [15:28] <hsivonen> I didin't realize QA Core didn't see the desktop UI
  641. # [15:29] <hsivonen> (even though I knew about gogi)
  642. # [15:29] <virtuelv> JohnResig: however, fwiw, the acid 3 build Lachy is talking about does support querySelectorAll
  643. # [15:29] <JohnResig> virtuelv: that's the one that I tested on, which is why I was wondering
  644. # [15:31] <Lachy> hsivonen, I use the desktop build on when I need to on Mac, since gogi is only build for windows and linux. But I generally try to avoid using it
  645. # [15:37] <virtuelv> JohnResig: useful read: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/presto-2-1-web-standards-supported-by/
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  651. # [16:11] <Philip`> The text-shadow example on that page would be more impressive if it didn't make Opera (9.5) slow down to ~5fps while it's scrolling into view
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  655. # [16:18] <virtuelv> Philip`: heh
  656. # [16:18] <virtuelv> I have an animated example with text-shadow lying around that easily manages a lot more
  657. # [16:20] <virtuelv> does anyone know if we've release anything to the public on w.o.c. with Rune's animation lib?
  658. # [16:21] <virtuelv> err, wrong channel, obviously
  659. # [16:21] <virtuelv> (I just need to sort out rights for some code before publishing the example)
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  670. # [16:41] <Lachy> I added more use cases to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Video_accessibility#Selection_Mechanisms
  671. # [16:41] <Lachy> hsivonen, can you think of any that I've missed?
  672. # [16:42] <Lachy> Hixie, is that the quality of use cases you need?
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  678. # [17:17] <virtuelv> Philip`: http://virtuelvis.com/gallery/text-shadow/
  679. # [17:17] <virtuelv> is that just as slow for you?
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  681. # [17:20] <Philip`> virtuelv: That seems much faster, though it still looks a bit jerky
  682. # [17:22] <virtuelv> hm, that has acceptable performance here, and doesn't tickle the CPU enough to upstep from 800MHz to 1.4GHz
  683. # [17:23] <zcorpan> hmm. should </x><!doctype html> trigger standards mode?
  684. # [17:25] <zcorpan> no quirks mode
  685. # [17:26] <Philip`> virtuelv: Doesn't use much CPU here either, but it's not fading smoothly - it seems to kind of get very briefly stuck occasionally, so it looks like it's going in steps rather than a single continuous transition
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  687. # [17:30] <Lachy> virtuelv, the page works in Safari now
  688. # [17:32] <virtuelv> Lachy: yeah, seems opera's parsing of arrays is a little on the lenient side, so I never caught the error
  689. # [17:32] <Lachy> file a bug about that array parsing then, I don't think we should be lenient
  690. # [17:33] <Lachy> Firefox and Safari both throw the same error, so I don't see a reason for us to ignore it
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  692. # [17:37] <hallvors> what array parsing issue is it? I think it's known.
  693. # [17:41] <virtuelv> hallvors: [ "foo" "bar"] produces an array with length 2
  694. # [17:42] <Lachy> hallvors, http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3E%0D%0Avar%20x%20%3D%20%5B%22a%22%20%22b%22%5D%0D%0Aw(x)%3B%0D%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E
  695. # [17:42] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.119.55.196)
  696. # [17:43] <virtuelv> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3E%0D%0Adocument.write(%5B%22a%22%20%22b%22%5D.length)%0D%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E
  697. # [17:43] <hallvors> known
  698. # [17:44] <hallvors> bug 298967 if you're interested
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  701. # [17:52] <zcorpan> ["a""b"]
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  713. # [18:17] <sicking> aboodman, in the house now :)
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  721. # [18:37] <sicking> aboodman, you pung
  722. # [18:38] <takkaria> is that the past tense of "smell"? :)
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  724. # [18:39] <aboodman> sicking - yeah, wanted to talk about worker stuff, but i will write up coherent thoughts.
  725. # [18:39] <sicking> Lachy, virtuelv: That gives me a parse error in FF3
  726. # [18:40] <sicking> aboodman, cool
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  728. # [18:51] <Lachy> sicking, yes, we know. It's a bug in Opera that makes it not throw a parse error
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  730. # [18:54] <sicking> Lachy, ah, ok
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  733. # [19:05] <gavin> 23
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  758. # [19:55] * fishd|zzZ is now known as fishd
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  769. # [20:33] <hsivonen> interesting accessibility hack: <img src="http://images.apple.com/main/elements/spacer.gif" border="0" height="5" width="20" alt="Voiceover users click here to listen to keynote address.">
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  774. # [20:50] <webben> alts in spacers is old school.
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  778. # [21:17] <gsnedders> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-public/message/1778 — that is lovely.
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  788. # [22:15] <Lachy> how do I make VoiceOver work with Firefox? All I can make it do is make it tell me that the close button is selected
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  791. # [22:17] <webben> Lachy: VO doesn't work with Fx.
  792. # [22:17] <Lachy> ok
  793. # [22:17] <webben> Lachy: Mozilla haven't implemented the Apple Accessibility API for Gecko.
  794. # [22:18] <webben> Lachy: best current option for speech on Firefox Mac is Fire Vox.
  795. # [22:18] <webben> Lachy: see also aaronlev 's article: http://accessgarage.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/firefox-and-os-xs-voiceover-reading-the-magic-8-ball/
  796. # [22:19] <webben> Lachy: oh, or WebAnywhere.
  797. # [22:19] <aaronlev> we have only very basic support
  798. # [22:20] <aaronlev> needs work
  799. # [22:21] <Lachy> webben, I just wanted to try using voiceover to get to that audio only copy of the apple keynote that hsivonen mentioned
  800. # [22:21] <Lachy> I can't get it to navigate the page using safari either. It's really not intuitive for me
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  802. # [22:24] <Lachy> anyway, If I copy the link manually from the source, I get 404
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  804. # [22:25] <hsivonen> it seems that the stevenote video track is text/html
  805. # [22:26] <hsivonen> I had problem with getting non-Apple software to show it
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  808. # [22:28] <webben> Lachy: which URL is the link on?
  809. # [22:28] <Lachy> http://events.apple.com.edgesuite.net/0809dt4bs89/event/index.html
  810. # [22:28] <webben> ta
  811. # [22:29] <webben> I see the img hack is in a link.
  812. # [22:29] <webben> nasty
  813. # [22:29] <Lachy> I don't get why they don't make that audio more easily available to everyone
  814. # [22:30] <webben> agreed
  815. # [22:31] <webben> Yeah, the link 404s for me.
  816. # [22:32] <webben> Also, in Safari, when I tab to the link it reads the href not the alt.
  817. # [22:33] <smedero> webben: that happens when using VoiceOver on OS X? are you using Safari on Windows.. or?
  818. # [22:34] <webben> VoiceOver, Safari, Leopard.
  819. # [22:34] <webben> s/tab to/focus on/
  820. # [22:35] <webben> If I had to guess, maybe WebKit/VO is specifically excluding pixel gifs from consideration as content.
  821. # [22:37] <webben> Lachy: reads correctly in Opera :)
  822. # [22:38] <webben> also works in latest WebKit
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  825. # [22:43] <smedero> webben: hrm, yeah with respect to the latest WebKit - the Safari 4 developer preview reads the @alt text as well.
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  845. # [23:50] <Lachy> wow, this is cool http://www.youtube.com/blog?entry=mi8D3ntPgFQ
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  847. # [23:51] <Lachy> this is a video with subtitles http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XraeBDMm2PM
  848. # [23:53] <jgraham> Their UI won't scale to 120 languages...
  849. # [23:54] <jgraham> Er, maybe I should have started with "cool!"
  850. # [23:54] <Lachy> I don't think anyone will provide subtitles in 120 languages for one video
  851. # [23:54] <jgraham> Ironic the BBC don't capion in English
  852. # [23:54] <Lachy> I think they just meant that there are 120 langauges to choose from
  853. # [23:55] <jgraham> Right, so they should design a system that will work for 120 languages :)
  854. # [23:55] <Lachy> this one has english captions http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ullmDNjb_ec
  855. # [23:55] <jgraham> (Yes I realise that would be really hard)
  856. # [23:55] <jgraham> (and almost certianly not worth the effort)
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  858. # [23:58] <gsnedders> Is a script executed when added to the DOM using createElement() and appendElement()?
  859. # Session Close: Thu Sep 11 00:00:00 2008

The end :)