/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-09-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Sep 12 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  15. # [01:13] <Lachy> I restructured and added more use cases to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Video_accessibility
  16. # [01:23] <Lachy> http://gizmodo.com/5048298/large-hadron-collider-has-black-hole-button :-)
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  52. # [03:42] <GregHouston> Does anyone know if Microsoft has an IRC server, and specifically an Internet Explorer channel?
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  98. # [08:37] <Hixie> GregHouston: if you find out, please let us know!
  99. # [08:37] <GregHouston> Haha
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  107. # [09:19] <hsivonen> anyone planning to point out on www-tag that html5 already allows uri-lookinh strings in rel?
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  120. # [10:28] <annevk> ooh, pete is not using the alt attribute in his fronteers presentation
  121. # [10:29] <annevk> also, IE still has DOM storage extensions
  122. # [10:29] <annevk> also, they are suggesting to simply set <meta> to IE7 if you think it's too much effort
  123. # [10:30] <othermaciej> did they at least prefix their extensions?
  124. # [10:30] <Hixie> of course not. they only prefix the extensions that they don't need to prefix.
  125. # [10:30] <annevk> the presentation was not clear
  126. # [10:31] <annevk> it was also not clear whether their implementation is still asynchronous
  127. # [10:31] <annevk> as it was in IE8 beta 1
  128. # [10:32] <hsivonen> what presentation are you referring to?
  129. # [10:32] <svl> hsivonen: fronteers2008 (dutch front-end conference)
  130. # [10:32] <othermaciej> time for a Return of Embrace Extend Extinguish blogstorm?
  131. # [10:33] <hsivonen> svl: thanks
  132. # [10:34] <annevk> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=html5 2022 is complained about
  133. # [10:34] <annevk> http://twitter.com/worksology/statuses/918380010 is funny
  134. # [10:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: are rel tokens case-sensitive?
  135. # [10:36] <hsivonen> annevk: HTML5 and the LHC have different network effect considerations
  136. # [10:36] <Hixie> annevk: it would be a fair comparison if there had been two LHCs built and the goal was to have them act exactly the same in every testable respect...
  137. # [10:36] <hsivonen> colliders don't need to interoperate technically
  138. # [10:36] <hsivonen> (although we assume that laws of physics are consistent in CERN and in the North American collider)
  139. # [10:37] <annevk> Hixie, yeah
  140. # [10:37] <annevk> but it's still funny
  141. # [10:37] <annevk> and prolly reflects how most people think about it
  142. # [10:37] <hsivonen> the JS on http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/ is funny
  143. # [10:37] <Hixie> hsivonen: it's case insensitive, but the spec doesn't appear to say that
  144. # [10:37] <annevk> hsivonen, they probably should be, although HTML5 doesn't say so
  145. # [10:37] <hsivonen> thanks
  146. # [10:37] <annevk> e.g. rel=STYLESHEET
  147. # [10:38] <Hixie> annevk: well luckily i don't really mind how people think about it :-)
  148. # [10:38] <Hixie> the 2022 date has actually worked pretty well to filter out the people who don't read
  149. # [10:38] <annevk> I rather have these people paying attention and use <canvas> then switch to Flash
  150. # [10:39] <Hixie> if people are considering flash, canvas isn't going to solve their needs
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  152. # [10:42] <hsivonen> SVG-in-text/html with an IDE might, though
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  154. # [10:46] <Hixie> well for that they'll likely have to wait til 2022 too, the way things are going
  155. # [10:46] <annevk2> grr
  156. # [10:47] <annevk2> i actually forgot about that feature yesterday, but it's not that interesting either yet
  157. # [10:48] <doublec> canvas works well for a lot of things that flash is probably used for (simple games, applets, ads, etc)
  158. # [10:49] <doublec> my js 8080 emulator uses canvas for the display and it runs good on firefox and webkit nightlies
  159. # [10:49] <doublec> just
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  161. # [10:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: are you suggesting that a vast Google/Apple conspiracy isn't resulting in Flash-killer GWT features within a couple of years?
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  163. # [10:51] <Hixie> i'm suggesting IE won't support SVG in a couple of years
  164. # [10:52] <Lachy> http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/Douglas-Crockford-I-Want-a-Browser-War/?kc=EWKNLINF09102008STR1
  165. # [10:52] <othermaciej> the rumors of a Google/Apple conspiracy are gratly exaggerated
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  182. # [11:29] <annevk> what is the %%%% business?
  183. # [11:30] <annevk> new feature?
  184. # [11:30] <annevk> (for data: POST)
  185. # [11:30] <annevk> lol: http://ishtml5readyyet.com/
  186. # [11:30] <Hixie> annevk: no, just porting wf2 over
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  188. # [11:31] <annevk> oh ok
  189. # [11:31] <Hixie> http://ishtml5readyyet.com/ misses the point pretty spectacularily :-)
  190. # [11:31] <Hixie> by that definition, the Web isn't ready yet
  191. # [11:31] <annevk> hehe
  192. # [11:31] * Dashiva goes to register isthewebreadyyet.com
  193. # [11:33] <othermaciej> doihaveevenasemblanceofaclue.com
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  202. # [12:01] <Philip`> http://bholley.wordpress.com/2008/09/12/so-many-colors/ - I'm much more comfortable when the world is just RGB 0-255 and you can fiddle with your monitor's gamma settings until it looks right - things are getting too complicated now :-(
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  204. # [12:06] <zcorpan_> http://micycle.wordpress.com/2008/09/11/why-ian-hickson-is-wrong-about-br-and-p-tags/
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  206. # [12:08] * Philip` presumes that person is also in favour of editors inserting <i> instead of <em> when users hit the 'italics' button
  207. # [12:09] <Philip`> so at least HTML5 goes most of the way towards what they want
  208. # [12:11] <zcorpan_> considering that wysiwygs insert <br>s for linebreaks and users type generally type two line breaks when they want a paragraph break, should html5 define two or more subsequent <br>s as meaning a paragraph break?
  209. # [12:11] <Philip`> Seems better for editors to translate two <br>s into <p>
  210. # [12:11] <Lachy> zcorpan_, no. Two <br>s for a paragraph is a bad practice that should be discouraged
  211. # [12:11] <Hixie> i think i hate forms.
  212. # [12:11] <zcorpan_> but that's really hard when you have lists too and you're not working with html syntax
  213. # [12:12] <zcorpan_> and you're implementation is regexp
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  215. # [12:12] <zcorpan_> Lachy: that wasn't my question though
  216. # [12:12] <Philip`> s/<br>\s*<br>/<p>/ - that wasn't hard :-p
  217. # [12:12] <Hixie> i guess tomorrow i get to specify accept-charset
  218. # [12:12] <Lachy> inserting a <p> for Enter, and <br> for Shift+Enter is acceptable, and is what MS Word does by default
  219. # [12:13] <Lachy> (although MS Word also sets the default paragraph margins to 0, so the effect not very noticable by default(
  220. # [12:13] <zcorpan_> Philip`: i guess it would work with the new rules where <ul><li>foo<p>bar</li> is allowed
  221. # [12:14] <Lachy> oh, yeah, defining that <br><br> should be treated as a paragraph break is acceptable, but shouldn't be considered conforming
  222. # [12:14] * Quits: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Client Quit)
  223. # [12:14] * Philip` remembers originally learning that <p> was a paragraph break (like how <br> is a line break), rather than a paragraph wrapper (like <div>)
  224. # [12:15] <Hixie> that was originally true
  225. # [12:15] <Philip`> I don't think it was true when I was learning HTML, but maybe the books were just old rather than wrong
  226. # [12:16] <zcorpan_> Lachy: do you think it's useful to replace two linebreaks with <p> in wysiwyg editors?
  227. # [12:16] <Lachy> yes
  228. # [12:16] <zcorpan_> Lachy: why?
  229. # [12:17] <Lachy> because most of the time when people type 2 line breaks, they mean a new paragraph
  230. # [12:17] <zcorpan_> Lachy: so if <br><br> is defined equivalent to <p>, why bother?
  231. # [12:17] <Lachy> and typographically, the spacing between 2 paragraphs separated by 2 <br> is too much
  232. # [12:17] <Philip`> Even HTML 2.0 says <p> is non-void
  233. # [12:18] <Philip`> (but draft-ietf-iiir-html-01 say it's void, or empty or whatever the term is)
  234. # [12:19] <Lachy> Philip`, that's because HTML2 was made more compatible with the SGML approach. It's the non-specced HTML1 that TBL originally created which used <p> like a break
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  237. # [12:21] <Philip`> Hmm, my earliest site just used <br> everywhere
  238. # [12:21] <Philip`> I think I didn't use <p> because I just didn't understand the point, when it was like <br> but wasted more screen space
  239. # [12:23] <Hixie> nn
  240. # [12:26] <BenMillard> zcorpan_, inferring paragraph semantics from <br><br> is something I've considered.
  241. # [12:27] <BenMillard> as Lachy points out, Return, Return doesn't always produce <br> in editing tools throughout the desktop
  242. # [12:28] <BenMillard> <p> elements allow better control of styling with CSS
  243. # [12:28] <BenMillard> I've worked with sites where the content had <br><br> and they wanted to redesign their content styles but found it hard because they weren't using <p>
  244. # [12:29] <BenMillard> AFAIK, the larger screenreaders already infer that two line breaks = a paragraph
  245. # [12:30] <Philip`> Do they do anything to indicate the presence of single line breaks?
  246. # [12:30] <Lachy> personally, I find reading blogs on blogger generally quite difficult because they insist on using only, when the WYSIWYG editor is used. It's really quite irritating having too much spacing between paragraphs
  247. # [12:30] <Lachy> *only <br>
  248. # [12:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: at least the old Gecko behavior of inserting br for return and paragraph break for two return sucked really, really badly
  249. # [12:31] <BenMillard> Philip`, I don't know. I've heard of them having a "next line" command but I don't know how that works.
  250. # [12:32] <BenMillard> hsivonen, that actually sounds reasonable to me...what made it so bad?
  251. # [12:32] <roc> WYSIWYG editing of structured documents is Hard
  252. # [12:33] <hsivonen> BenMillard: it was counter-intuitive, non-obvious, unreliable and incompatible with IE
  253. # [12:33] <roc> a basic problem is that when the user pressed a character key, the rendering must change. anything else is a bug
  254. # [12:34] <hsivonen> If we want to have a format that has paragraphs on the format level, we need to rub this fact in the faces of users by making return break a paragraph *and* by having non-zero paragraph margins by default
  255. # [12:34] <BenMillard> hsivonen, I know my dad uses a single return in e-mails when he starts a new paragraph.
  256. # [12:34] <BenMillard> my mum used to do the same thing but now she's been on internet forums for a while, she uses two line breaks everywhere.
  257. # [12:35] <roc> figuring out what the right or minimal thing to insert into the DOM to achieve an appropriate rendering change, in all possible situations, is really tough
  258. # [12:35] <BenMillard> having said that, an ex-girlfriend used to put song lyrics on her blog without <blockquote> and used single return between lines and 2 returns between versus...
  259. # [12:35] <roc> and even if you achieve it, it leads to unpredictable behaviour
  260. # [12:35] * virtuelv really just wishes everyone could write Markdown instead
  261. # [12:36] <virtuelv> (In markdown, two trailing spaces+enter = <br> and enter = <p>
  262. # [12:36] * Philip` wishes everyone just wrote text/plain
  263. # [12:36] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.122.182) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  264. # [12:36] <virtuelv> Philip`: markdown is mostly text/plain
  265. # [12:36] <Philip`> Eww, trailing spaces?
  266. # [12:37] * Philip` tends to automatically delete trailing spaces whenever he sees them, because they're ugly
  267. # [12:37] <doublec> Hixie: in the audio portion of the spec, at the end of 4.7.8.0 it mentions "If the src argument is present..." but the example given calls it the argument 'url'
  268. # [12:37] <virtuelv> Philip`: yes, because the assumption is that even though you, for writing purposes, might wish to hard-wrap your plaintext file, you don't wish to get <br> in your transform to HTML
  269. # [12:37] <BenMillard> roc, I think you're right in saying it's a difficult problem. :)
  270. # [12:38] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  271. # [12:39] <BenMillard> zcorpan_, I think it's useful for WYSIWYG to produce <p> given the styling problems I've seen when websites redesigned...quite how it gets there is hard. and it's probably sensible to infer paragraph semantics from <br><br>
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  301. # [14:41] <hsivonen> show source fixed on http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.co.jp%2FHollywood-Spotlight%2F2135%2F&showsource=yes#cl3c41 thanks
  302. # [14:41] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-283888eac6d2310a)
  303. # [14:41] <hsivonen> (whew that one has hard to track down although trivial at the end)
  304. # [14:43] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: what was the problem?
  305. # [14:44] <hsivonen> the first problem was that the byte level counted lines and columns according to SAX tradition
  306. # [14:44] * Quits: annevk22 (n=annevk@csp8.waag.org) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  307. # [14:44] <hsivonen> the second problem was that it started from the whole offset when there were more than one bad byte per buffer
  308. # [14:45] <hsivonen> the third problem was that I was trying to sync these using standard SAX line/col getters instead of specilized internal getters
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  311. # [15:01] <hsivonen> I turned heuristic sniffing on in the validation facet
  312. # [15:03] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: what's heuristic sniffing?
  313. # [15:05] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: it tries to user jchardet and ICU4J heuristic sniffer to detect the character encoding statistically if there is no encoding decl on the HTTP layer on inside the first 512 bytes
  314. # [15:06] <Philip`> Do browers ever look at the domain name as an extra hint to their heuristics?
  315. # [15:07] <hsivonen> never heard of them doing it
  316. # [15:07] * Joins: webben_ (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-727c5da049b1220b)
  317. # [15:08] <hsivonen> anyway, the sniffer should reduce noise when validating badly authored CJK pages
  318. # [15:08] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: can it be sniffed to be something ascii-incompatible?
  319. # [15:08] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: no
  320. # [15:08] <hsivonen> all the previous problems with mislabeled UTF-16 remain
  321. # [15:09] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: ok. what happens if you find a real <meta> after the sniffer has decided on a particular encoding?
  322. # [15:09] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: or is that fatal anyway?
  323. # [15:09] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: if the later meta declares a different encoding, the result is still fatal
  324. # [15:10] <zcorpan_> the sniffer only looks at the first 512 bytes?
  325. # [15:10] <hsivonen> right
  326. # [15:10] <hsivonen> surprisingly, that seems to be quite enough
  327. # [15:14] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g228085193.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  328. # [15:17] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: do you have a URL handy where the sniffer makes a difference?
  329. # [15:19] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.co.jp%2FHollywood-Spotlight%2F2135%2F&showsource=yes
  330. # [15:21] <Philip`> hsivonen: Error 65 ("Element font not allowed as child of element html in this context") says
  331. # [15:21] <Philip`> At line 139, column 8
  332. # [15:21] <Philip`> r>↩</body>↩</html
  333. # [15:22] <Philip`> but clicking the location marker doesn't work
  334. # [15:22] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-283888eac6d2310a) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  337. # [15:23] <Philip`> (Also I don't see a font element there)
  338. # [15:27] <hsivonen> Philip`: whoa! that's crazy
  339. # [15:27] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  340. # [15:28] <hsivonen> real-world fuzzing strikes again
  341. # [15:28] <hsivonen> how can I get Google Groups to pick up my non-@gmail.com From address from Gmail?
  342. # [15:29] <Philip`> It's not really fuzzing, it's just basic testing :-p
  343. # [15:29] <Philip`> If someone generated millions of random pages and checked for errors, that'd be fuzzing; but I'm just picking a random URL and trying it and finding all these errors ;-)
  344. # [15:29] * Quits: svl (n=me@csp8.waag.org) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  345. # [15:30] <hsivonen> Philip`: the set of URLs you are picking from does have random weird stuff though
  346. # [15:32] <hallvors> Philip`: I think Opera uses TLD as one of the factors for charset detection, but it's not a topic I know much about and I haven't checked if I'm right. UI language is also used.
  347. # [15:40] <Philip`> hsivonen: The set of URLs I'm picking from is basically just the web :-)
  348. # [15:41] <Philip`> so I expect it does have much more random weird stuff than the subset of the web controlled by people who run validators on their own pages
  349. # [15:41] * Joins: itpastorn (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net)
  350. # [15:41] <Philip`> hallvors: Okay, thanks
  351. # [15:43] * Quits: itpastorn (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net) (Client Quit)
  352. # [15:43] <hsivonen> I want to know why the line break between </body> and </html> causes formatting elements to be reopened
  353. # [15:44] <hsivonen> I don't know yet if it is an implementation bug or a spec bug
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  357. # [16:05] <hsivonen> hah. I have // XXX bug? on the relevant line asking if this is a spec bug
  358. # [16:07] <hsivonen> I wonder if I've email Hixie about this a year ago
  359. # [16:08] <hsivonen> hmm. http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html is not looking good
  360. # [16:08] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: how does the spec ever insert anything after the body element?
  361. # [16:08] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: it doesn't. that part is my bug
  362. # [16:08] <Philip`> I thought there wasn't any outstanding feedback on the parser
  363. # [16:09] <Philip`> (and I can't see any in the issues list)
  364. # [16:09] <hsivonen> ok. then I'll file a bug
  365. # [16:09] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: probably because Hixie started to work with wf2 instead of dealing with feedback
  366. # [16:09] * Joins: svl (n=me@csp8.waag.org)
  367. # [16:10] <takkaria> hsivonen: when WF is done, I imagine it'll drop by a good few hundred
  368. # [16:10] <hsivonen> anyway, the spec bug is that space characters in 'after body' reconstruct the list of formatting elements
  369. # [16:12] * Joins: annevk22 (n=annevk@csp8.waag.org)
  370. # [16:14] <annevk22> http://jeffcroft.com/blog/2008/sep/11/two-thousand-twenty-two/ is part of the reason for the twitter messages
  371. # [16:15] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.124.222) ("Konversation terminated!")
  372. # [16:16] <hsivonen> hmm. it might not be a spec bug after all...
  373. # [16:17] <zcorpan_> what jeff writes makes sense if you're an author
  374. # [16:19] <zcorpan_> Lachy: perhaps the web developer guide to html5 shouldn't mention stuff that's not widely implemented
  375. # [16:19] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.127.225)
  376. # [16:19] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  377. # [16:19] <Philip`> To a reasonable margin of error, everyone is an author, so it makes sense to make sense to authors
  378. # [16:20] <hsivonen> aargh. the spec is not in error
  379. # [16:20] <hsivonen> IE8, Opera and WebKit actually behave like that
  380. # [16:20] <hsivonen> Gecko doesn't
  381. # [16:20] <annevk22> seems adactio explained it already
  382. # [16:21] <annevk22> (re: jeffcroft.com post)
  383. # [16:21] <hsivonen> in Opera and WebKit, </body> splits the text node, though
  384. # [16:21] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip75.unival.com)
  385. # [16:24] <hsivonen> looks like in the streaming mode, the Validator.nu HTML Parser gets the infoset wrong if there are space characters after </body>
  386. # [16:24] <hsivonen> I'll probably call it a feature
  387. # [16:24] <hsivonen> since fixing it would make the messages really annoying
  388. # [16:24] <Philip`> That's cheating :-p
  389. # [16:25] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  390. # [16:25] <hsivonen> Philip`: is it useful to throw a fatal error because the parser couldn't move an additional space inside the last <font>?
  391. # [16:26] <zcorpan_> in 2022, HTML5 will be what CSS1 is now, but CSS1 was still worth it
  392. # [16:26] <annevk22> seems I already blogged about the HTML5 timeline last december
  393. # [16:26] <annevk22> zcorpan_, nice line, might use that
  394. # [16:28] <Philip`> hsivonen: The informative message is the "End tag for body seen but there were unclosed elements" one (or at least it would be informative if it said what elements were unclosed), and then it's just quite confusing for it complain about a new font element after that point
  395. # [16:29] <Philip`> so if there was a fatal error, it'd still give the informative message, and wouldn't give the confusing message, so maybe that'd be good
  396. # [16:29] <Philip`> (but I might be missing lots of issues here)
  397. # [16:29] <hsivonen> Philip`: oh, there's definitely a bug to fix here
  398. # [16:29] <hsivonen> Philip`: I'm unsure about whether making the placement of endgame spaces just right is worthwhile, though
  399. # [16:30] <Philip`> Ah
  400. # [16:30] * Philip` doesn't really care much about spaces :-)
  401. # [16:30] * zcorpan_ thinks it's not worthwhile and would also like whitespace after head to just be inserted in head
  402. # [16:31] * annevk22 agrees
  403. # [16:31] <hsivonen> Jeff Croft seems to miss the point between Hixie writing stuff down and not having to maintain separate site code bases for different browsers
  404. # [16:32] <annevk22> well, he also misses the point of reading beyond the point of disagreement
  405. # [16:37] <Lachy> zcorpan_, since the guide is meant to be a complete guide to HTML5, it doesn't make sense to omit stuff just because it's not implemented yet. Besides, everything will be implemented or dropped by the time HTML5 is done
  406. # [16:38] <virtuelv> zcorpan_: I'd prefer such a document to be live, and to reflect stuff people can actually test on their own
  407. # [16:38] <zcorpan_> Lachy: well you can't write everything at once anyway and the guide could be a living document evolving along with html5 and implementations
  408. # [16:38] <hsivonen> bad. I guess I'll just fix the endgame spaces
  409. # [16:38] <hsivonen> s/bad/bah/
  410. # [16:38] <annevk22> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2008JulSep/0469.html "I was only saying that if you want this document to be consistent with the direction HTML is headed, you should rely upon the definitions in RDFa."
  411. # [16:39] <zcorpan_> virtuelv: my point exactly
  412. # [16:39] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@87.102.18.38) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  413. # [16:39] <hsivonen> virtuelv: we should have HTML snapshots like CSS Beijing
  414. # [16:39] <Lachy> was there anything in particular that it mentions, but shouldn't right now?
  415. # [16:39] <zcorpan_> Lachy: dunno
  416. # [16:42] <Lachy> that post from Jeff Croft pretty much sums up the reasons why I stopped telling people that time line directly, and instead focussing on their ability to use the new stuff that's becoming available
  417. # [16:45] <annevk22> i managed to explain it at fronteers by talking about CSS2
  418. # [16:45] <annevk22> people using the features, and the amount of time getting complete interop takes
  419. # [16:47] <zcorpan_> annevk22: s/got/get/ (fronteers-html5-video)
  420. # [16:49] <hsivonen> perhaps it would be better PR to pretend not to have a guess about how long it will take to get *everything* implemented in an interoperable way
  421. # [16:49] <hsivonen> "when it's ready"
  422. # [16:50] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: yeah
  423. # [16:51] <annevk22> zcorpan_, euh, where exactly?
  424. # [16:51] <zcorpan_> annevk22: "How did we got here?"
  425. # [16:51] <zcorpan_> annevk22: in the presentation, that is
  426. # [16:55] <hsivonen> http://twitter.com/riddle/statuses/918917836
  427. # [16:55] <virtuelv> hsivonen: :)
  428. # [16:57] <hsivonen> on missing the point: http://twitter.com/singpolyma/statuses/918912066
  429. # [16:57] <annevk22> zcorpan_, ouch
  430. # [16:57] <Lachy> wow, I think we need to improve our PR a bit. Those reactions are a bit surprising
  431. # [16:58] <zcorpan_> Hixie: don't mention 2022 in interviews :P
  432. # [16:58] <hsivonen> Lachy: not really surprising
  433. # [16:59] * Quits: hallvors (n=hallvord@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  434. # [16:59] <annevk22> zcorpan_, fixed, damage already done though
  435. # [17:01] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  436. # [17:02] <hsivonen> annevk22: our education and outreach party line should probably say "XHTML 1.0" instead of "XHTML 1.x", since we aren't trying to be compatible with the stuff the XHTML2 WG does under the XHTML 1.1 name
  437. # [17:02] <Lachy> hsivonen, the fact that they don't really understand the timeline isn't surprising, but their hostility towards the spec is
  438. # [17:04] <hsivonen> when they put together CSS Eleven, I wonder what their expected commitment span was...
  439. # [17:04] * hsivonen notes that Jeff Croft was on CSS Eleven
  440. # [17:04] * hsivonen also notes that CSS3 is taking its time
  441. # [17:04] <annevk22> hsivonen, yeah, good point
  442. # [17:04] * Joins: aaronlev_ (n=chatzill@g226145023.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  443. # [17:05] * annevk22 fixes that while he's still connected
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  445. # [17:05] * aaronlev_ is now known as aaronlev
  446. # [17:06] <hsivonen> the aspect ratio of the demo video is wrong in Minefield
  447. # [17:07] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: i think that's a known bug in minefield
  448. # [17:07] * Parts: annevk22 (n=annevk@csp8.waag.org)
  449. # [17:07] * zcorpan_ remembers someone commenting on the spec because of that bug
  450. # [17:08] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  451. # [17:11] * Quits: svl (n=me@csp8.waag.org) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
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  454. # [17:31] <takkaria> is anyone else finding it hard to follow the privacy/disability thread?
  455. # [17:32] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-100-71-209.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
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  457. # [17:33] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-d0eb82f5f66f3c6e)
  458. # [17:38] <hsivonen> takkaria: I got the impression that everyone but David Dailey says "Not a Problem" and I have trouble following what David Dailey said
  459. # [17:39] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
  460. # [17:43] <Lachy> oh, Safari and Firefox incorrectly parse <meta =charset="UTF-8">, at least according to the current spec, for their encoding detection
  461. # [17:44] <Lachy> ah, but IE gets it right
  462. # [17:44] <Lachy> and Opear
  463. # [17:44] <Lachy> Opera*
  464. # [17:46] <gsnedders> takkaria: No, I just use the mark all as read feature of my mail client
  465. # [17:51] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-1f709bf1ebfeb7fb)
  466. # [18:05] <Lachy> some character encoding detection tests are available here http://lachy.id.au/dev/markup/tests/html5/encoding/
  467. # [18:08] <Philip`> Could you make it determine pass/fail automatically, and then have a tool which runs all the tests at once, for lazy people?
  468. # [18:09] <Lachy> yeah, eventually, I can do that
  469. # [18:09] * Joins: itpastorn1 (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net)
  470. # [18:09] <Lachy> I still have a few hundred more tests to make
  471. # [18:09] <Lachy> and then I can make a test harness
  472. # [18:10] <Philip`> Isn't it easier if you have a harness before you write the tests, so you can more easily run and test the tests?
  473. # [18:11] <takkaria> I was going to suggest doing them as data: urls, but I forgot IE didn't support them
  474. # [18:13] <Lachy> yeah, maybe
  475. # [18:14] <Lachy> if I can work out how. But I also have to make them capable of being integrated into Opera's testing system
  476. # [18:15] * Quits: dotjay (n=dotjay@nov5th.plus.com) ("/me ⏏")
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  478. # [18:15] <Lachy> I should be able to write some javascript to check the textContent of the element to make sure it contains the right character, and then have that report to the test harness
  479. # [18:19] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@17.244.16.253)
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  481. # [18:22] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  482. # [18:27] <Philip`> Lachy: Presumably something like <script>'Å' == '\xc5' ? pass() : fail()</script> would work for most of the tests
  483. # [18:27] * Quits: itpastorn (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  484. # [18:27] <Lachy> Philip`, yeah, that's what I did
  485. # [18:28] <Philip`> takkaria: That's possibly a bad idea since data: URLs specify their own encoding
  486. # [18:28] <Philip`> so I guess you can't put a raw uninterpreted byte in them
  487. # [18:35] <Lachy> Philip`, if you want to create a test harness for them, that would be helpful. Just make use of the top.opener.rr(passed) function that gets called in them for obtaining the result. That's how Opera's system works
  488. # [18:35] <Philip`> Making framerate counters in SVG by having each digit represented by an object containing the text "0\n1\n2\n..." (converted to path form so that it doesn't depend on fonts or dodgy text renderers) which is dynamically moved upwards/downwards so the right sequence of digit values is visible, is a stupid idea
  489. # [18:36] * Joins: aroben__ (n=adamrobe@17.244.16.253)
  490. # [18:37] <Philip`> (I only allowed for two digits, and now Chrome goes at >100fps, and I can't be bothered to go and update all my SVG and JS to make it work again :-( )
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  494. # [18:38] <hsivonen> it's weird how comments and space characters go to different places after </body>
  495. # [18:38] * Philip` decides to not bother fixing it, until he rewrites Canvex in the distant future
  496. # [18:41] <takkaria> oo, Chrome does canvex that fast?
  497. # [18:41] <Philip`> Yes, at 320x240
  498. # [18:41] <Philip`> and around 30fps at 640x480
  499. # [18:41] <gsnedders> Philip`: So the advice is to use a higher res.?
  500. # [18:42] <Philip`> Sadly it inherits WebKit's total failure to render table layouts
  501. # [18:43] <Philip`> which makes the page take twice as much vertical space as it should, so at high resolutions it's larger than the screen, and the up/down movement keys cause the browser to scroll up and down the page, which is highly irritating
  502. # [18:43] <hsivonen> Philip`: why am I not seeing a huge fps difference with tracemonkey?
  503. # [18:44] * hsivonen starts to suspect his Minefield doesn't really enable TraceMonkey
  504. # [18:44] <Philip`> hsivonen: Because it spends nearly all its time drawing nice bilinearly-scaled bitmaps to the screen, not running JS
  505. # [18:45] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  506. # [18:46] <Philip`> (Chrome uses the Skia library for graphics, which I presume it what makes it fast)
  507. # [18:47] <Philip`> s/it/is/
  508. # [18:47] <takkaria> I wonder if Cairo will get as good as Skia at some point
  509. # [18:48] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-d0eb82f5f66f3c6e)
  510. # [18:49] <Philip`> Skia is under the Apache License 2.0, so I presume Cairo can't copy any of its code
  511. # [18:50] <takkaria> yeah, someone was complaining about that on planet.mozilla.org
  512. # [18:50] <Philip`> Skia has some OpenGL code but I don't know if it actually uses that
  513. # [18:52] * Quits: aroben__ (n=adamrobe@unaffiliated/aroben) (Connection timed out)
  514. # [18:54] <Philip`> Hmm, the public Skia code doesn't even seem to really have any assembly or SSE or anything, so I don't see how it could be that much faster
  515. # [18:54] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L92c3.l.pppool.de)
  516. # [18:54] <Philip`> and I don't think it was particularly lower quality at scaling images downwards than other browsers
  517. # [18:55] * Philip` will have to look more closely when he gets home
  518. # [18:56] <hsivonen> would it be bad if in the streaming mode instead of detecting the non-streamability of trailing comments I just hoisted them into body
  519. # [18:56] <hsivonen> that is, if I simply deferred the endElement events for body and html without bookkeeping of whether there are trailing comments?
  520. # [18:57] <Philip`> hsivonen: Does the streaming code currently follow the spec precisely (except in cases where it aborts with a fatal error), so this would be the first divergence?
  521. # [18:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: well, not the divergence is that trailing whitespace goes outside the body
  522. # [18:58] <hsivonen> s/not/now/
  523. # [18:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: but yeah, until now I have imagined it followed the spec
  524. # [18:59] <hsivonen> I could still claim that it conforms if you don't set a LexicalHandler
  525. # [19:00] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  526. # [19:00] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  527. # [19:00] <hsivonen> it seems pointless to put in all the code to allow trailing comments to go into the right place but then throw a fatal error if there's a line feed after such comment
  528. # [19:03] * Philip` wouldn't complain if it was just a documented deviation from the spec
  529. # [19:07] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  530. # [19:09] * hsivonen zaps a lot of fatal errors
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  537. # [20:04] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
  538. # [20:09] <Lachy> the new Microsoft ad is even more boring than the one from last week, and it's 3 times longer
  539. # [20:09] <othermaciej> I didn't really get it
  540. # [20:10] <Lachy> I don't think anyone gets it
  541. # [20:10] <Lachy> for anyone who hasn't seen it, http://www.microsoft.com/windows/default.aspx?icid=winvan
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  549. # [20:25] * jgraham hasn't seen any of the Microsoft ads but maybe just getting people to talk about the ads is the idea
  550. # [20:29] <Lachy> jgraham, the problem is that the ads are backfiring because the ads suck so much, it makes Microsoft look bad
  551. # [20:29] <Lachy> it certainly doesn't want to make me buy any of their products
  552. # [20:30] <Philip`> Lachy: But you're a smelly Mac user, so you're really not the target audience for Microsoft ads :-p
  553. # [20:30] <othermaciej> I don't think they are supposed to sell product directly
  554. # [20:30] <othermaciej> they are supposed to "humanize" the company
  555. # [20:31] <othermaciej> I will admit the ads increased my estimate of Bill Gates's coolness by a small amount
  556. # [20:31] <othermaciej> but that estimate was already abysmally low
  557. # [20:31] <othermaciej> and in general the ads seem in bad taste and make both BG and Seinfeld look annoying and distant
  558. # [20:33] <Lachy> until Vista came out, I was a Windows user
  559. # [20:34] * Philip` discovers that where Vista's "(My) Computer" window shows system information (network name, CPU name, RAM, etc), if you click on the text with those details (as opposed to space between them, or the textual field labels, or anywhere else in the window), the window does not get focussed
  560. # [20:35] <Philip`> (Also the detail text isn't quite lined up with the associated label text)
  561. # [20:36] <Philip`> I assume there's some kind of security-related reason for that bug, but it doesn't make me particularly happy about Vista
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  573. # [21:23] <hsivonen> heh. the MS ad is Flash with a Silverlight download button on the page
  574. # [21:26] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@87.102.18.38)
  575. # [21:28] <Dashiva> I liked it!
  576. # [21:32] * Joins: aboodman4 (n=aboodman@adsl-63-204-27-202.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  577. # [21:41] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
  578. # [21:44] <Hixie> the 2022 date is useful for getting rid of people who don't read -- the interview was pretty clear about what it meant
  579. # [21:44] <Hixie> and i'm happy for people to talk about html5 :-)
  580. # [21:44] <Hixie> regarding microsoft's ad, i thought it was quite reassuring
  581. # [21:45] <Hixie> i had thought that their $300bn campaign might give them their edge back
  582. # [21:45] <Hixie> but having seen the ads, i am no longer concerned
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  587. # [22:03] <Hixie> the comments on the various blogs about 2022 are encouraging
  588. # [22:03] <Hixie> people seem to be getting it
  589. # [22:03] <Hixie> i am, however, amused by the people who think in 14 years the web won't exist or will be radically different or whatever.
  590. # [22:03] <gavin> did something happen recently regarding 2022?
  591. # [22:03] <Hixie> i imagine those are the same people who thought we'd be driving flying cars...
  592. # [22:04] <Hixie> gavin: i mentioned it in an interview
  593. # [22:04] <Hixie> http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/programming-and-development/?p=718
  594. # [22:07] <gavin> that was a while ago though, wasn't it?
  595. # [22:07] <gavin> guess not that long ago
  596. # [22:07] * gavin has been meaning to read it
  597. # [22:08] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@17.203.15.235)
  598. # [22:10] <Lachy> Hixie, we are going to be driving flying cars and riding hover boards by 2015. Back To The Future showed us that.
  599. # [22:12] <gsnedders> Hixie: Hey! I didn't exist when the web began! Things can change!
  600. # [22:14] * bdash_ is now known as bdash
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  602. # [22:15] <Philip`> gavin: The recent happening is that someone read that interview
  603. # [22:15] <Philip`> (http://jeffcroft.com/blog/2008/sep/11/two-thousand-twenty-two/)
  604. # [22:16] <Lachy> gsnedders, are you saying that changes to the human population are relevant to to the internet, or just that your birth was a significant event in its history?
  605. # [22:16] <gsnedders> Lachy: That things can change over time.
  606. # [22:16] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@195.58.88.12)
  607. # [22:17] <Philip`> gsnedders: But you're saying that the web changes slower than human life
  608. # [22:18] <gsnedders> Philip`: I change very slowly
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  613. # [22:33] <hsivonen> yay for content negotiation: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/versioning-compatibility-strategies
  614. # [22:40] <gsnedders> Hmmm.
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  616. # [22:41] <gsnedders> I need more than normal on the front page of my LaTeX report :\
  617. # [22:43] <gsnedders> like, on the title page
  618. # [22:48] <Lachy> hsivonen, I don't anything about content negotiation in that document
  619. # [22:51] <Lachy> or were you referring to being sent the useless application/xml copy of it instead of the text/html version, due to content negitaion?
  620. # [22:54] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  621. # [23:00] <hsivonen> Lachy: I get an unstyled XML doc in Firefox
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  624. # [23:12] <Lachy> I don't. I get the HTML version in Firefox
  625. # [23:12] <Lachy> check what accept headers Firefox is sending
  626. # [23:13] <hsivonen> this is Firefox 2 on ubuntu 7.10
  627. # [23:14] <Lachy> I've got Firefox 3
  628. # [23:14] <hsivonen> Accept: text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=0.8,image/png,*/*;q=0.5
  629. # [23:15] <Lachy> FF3 must have changed them.
  630. # [23:15] <Lachy> Accept: text/html,application/xhtml+xml,application/xml;q=0.9,*/*;q=0.8
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  644. # [23:54] <Lachy> I added a couple more features to the beta and changed the layout a little. http://html5.lachy.id.au/beta/
  645. # [23:55] <Lachy> new features include the buttons to insert template markup
  646. # [23:56] <Lachy> and the small gap between the DOM tree panel and the toolbar below intentional, not a bug. It will have something added to the space later.
  647. # [23:57] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
  648. # Session Close: Sat Sep 13 00:00:00 2008

The end :)