/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-09-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 13 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:05] * Joins: GregHouston (n=ghouston@adsl-65-65-225-218.dsl.spfdmo.swbell.net)
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  9. # [00:24] <annevk22> markp++
  10. # [00:25] <annevk22> we should have a bot that keeps track of what like in #webkit
  11. # [00:25] * annevk22 is now known as annevk
  12. # [00:25] <csarven> http://ishtml5readyyet.com/
  13. # [00:26] <gsnedders> Hmmm. I wonder whether I should do that as XHTML.
  14. # [00:26] * gsnedders waits to be killed
  15. # [00:26] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  16. # [00:26] <jgraham> gsnedders: What? Is XHTML ready yet?
  17. # [00:27] <gsnedders> jgraham: Why wait for things to be ready?
  18. # [00:27] * annevk places a comment
  19. # [00:27] * jgraham feels he is missing something
  20. # [00:27] <annevk> and I make a typo, nice
  21. # [00:28] * Parts: kangax (n=kangax@ool-182f8118.dyn.optonline.net)
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  23. # [00:29] <Lachy> according to WHOIS, this is the guy that set up that site http://jcornelius.com/
  24. # [00:29] <jgraham> annevk: What did markp say/do?
  25. # [00:30] * Hixie tries to come up with a description of what the form element is
  26. # [00:30] <csarven> annevk No wonder HTML5 is taking so long with all the typoZ. :)
  27. # [00:30] <Hixie> <p>The <code>form</code> element represents a collection of <span
  28. # [00:30] <Hixie> title="category-field">data entry fields</span> that can be
  29. # [00:30] <Hixie> submitted to a server for processing.</p>
  30. # [00:31] <jgraham> Hixie: Sounds reasonable, no?
  31. # [00:31] <Hixie> good.
  32. # [00:31] <Hixie> thnks.
  33. # [00:31] <csarven> Not necessarily "data entry fields", unless type=hidden stuff is classified as such.
  34. # [00:32] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-155-4.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  35. # [00:32] <Hixie> just data fields maybe?
  36. # [00:32] <Hixie> now, wtf is accept-charset and what does it do.
  37. # [00:32] * Hixie cracks open html4
  38. # [00:32] <csarven> I suppose "entry" comes off as if the user physically taking an action on the form.
  39. # [00:32] <jgraham> data fields is arguably more precise but I think either is good enough
  40. # [00:33] <annevk> http://jeffcroft.com/blog/2008/sep/11/two-thousand-twenty-two/#c147306 well, there's that
  41. # [00:33] <annevk> csarven, hah
  42. # [00:33] <csarven> annevk That's where I came across it. I didn't get to reading the comments yet.
  43. # [00:33] <annevk> jgraham, he made a snarky remark on my blog
  44. # [00:33] <nessy> isn't accept-charset http ?
  45. # [00:34] <annevk> (that comment says, Jeff Croft: "If, in 2022, I’m still writing HTML, CSS, and Javascript, I will probably shoot myself. :)")
  46. # [00:34] <othermaciej> yeah! and if in 2008 we're still using TCP and ASCII, we should kill ourselves
  47. # [00:35] <Hixie> "The value is a space- and/or comma-delimited list of charset values."
  48. # [00:35] <Hixie> ffs
  49. # [00:35] <othermaciej> or, god forbid, coding in C
  50. # [00:35] <jgraham> annevk: Oh I see. Yeah it's unny how Jeff said all that stuff and then denied that he meant it was a negative thing. I guess he needs to work on his writing skills ;)
  51. # [00:35] <Hixie> it's like the html4 wg went OUT OF IT'S WAY to make design decisions that were as vague and annoying as possible
  52. # [00:35] <jgraham> s/unny/funny/
  53. # [00:35] <annevk> I guess the good thing is that the smarter cookies out there get better informed because of this madness
  54. # [00:36] <Hixie> i wonder if any browsers support accept-charset and how to test it
  55. # [00:36] <jgraham> othermaciej: No need we have the LHC for that :)
  56. # [00:36] <annevk> Hixie, they do
  57. # [00:36] <annevk> Hixie, isn't that the charset that ends up being used by the browser for submission?
  58. # [00:37] <Hixie> yeah
  59. # [00:37] <jgraham> I thought browsers did something vaugely surprising with accept-charset
  60. # [00:37] <annevk> you can probably test it by using different encodings for the page and accept-charset
  61. # [00:37] <annevk> not sure how to test the multiple values thing accurately
  62. # [00:37] <Hixie> jgraham: implementing it per spec would be vaugely surprising
  63. # [00:37] <annevk> maybe with unsupported encodings
  64. # [00:37] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@adsl-66-127-210-245.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) ("The computer fell asleep")
  65. # [00:37] <jgraham> Hixie: That would be midblowing ;)
  66. # [00:37] <jgraham> mindblowing even
  67. # [00:37] <annevk> you mean not possible
  68. # [00:41] * Lachy starts work on an article to explain the exactly what spec timeline means for web developers
  69. # [00:43] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@163.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  70. # [00:44] <jgraham> Lachy: For the WHATWG blog or for your own blog?
  71. # [00:44] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.245)
  72. # [00:45] <Lachy> haven't decided yet. There are a few other options I could try too
  73. # [00:45] <Lachy> depends how much visibility I want to give the article
  74. # [00:46] <jgraham> I can happily write a 1 paragraph entry for the WHATWG blog
  75. # [00:46] <annevk> go for it
  76. # [00:46] <jgraham> Something that woughly reads 2022: This number is irrelevant
  77. # [00:46] <jgraham> roughly
  78. # [00:47] <annevk> sounds good
  79. # [00:47] * jgraham must try hitting the right keys in the right order
  80. # [00:47] <annevk> that's how I ended up with mesaure
  81. # [00:48] <annevk> (well, correct keys, wrong order)
  82. # [00:49] <annevk> and "charset values" implies the weird matching rules?
  83. # [00:49] <Lachy> I was intending to write something a little longer that explains the spec process and outlines what each milestone means to each of the stake holders, including web devs, browser vendors and spec writers
  84. # [00:49] <annevk> oops
  85. # [00:49] <annevk> yeah, no reason we can't have both though
  86. # [00:49] <jgraham> Lachy: Sure. I think longer is good.
  87. # [00:50] <jgraham> I'll only bother if also having something short adds value
  88. # [00:50] <Lachy> I could submit it to ALA, that would give it a lot of visibility, or perhaps get it published on WaSP
  89. # [00:50] * Quits: roc (n=chatzill@121-72-162-122.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  90. # [00:50] <Hixie> the 2022 date is when the spec becomes mostly irrelevant, ironically :-)
  91. # [00:51] <GregHouston> 2022 is about around the time NASA is suppose to have astronauts living on the moon. Maybe that can be worked into the blog. ;)
  92. # [00:51] <Hixie> at least, assuming that we've moved on to html6 and co by then, at least on the spec side of things
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  95. # [00:53] <Hixie> ok well
  96. # [00:53] <Hixie> accept-charset interoperability result:
  97. # [00:53] <Hixie> 0.
  98. # [00:55] <Lachy> by 2022, the interplanetary internet should be working too, so that astronauts living on the moon will be able to use the internet
  99. # [00:55] <jgraham> The ping time will be horrendous
  100. # [00:55] <Lachy> http://www.sstl.co.uk/News_and_Events/Latest_News/?story=1254
  101. # [00:55] <GregHouston> Haha. Yeah, there was a post about that on slashdot yesterday.
  102. # [00:55] <Lachy> yeah, that's where I saw it
  103. # [00:56] <Hixie> forget ping times, iirc TCP congestion control doesn't even work right with the kind of latency you'll get on the interplanatory net
  104. # [00:56] <jgraham> Well the distance to the moon / the speed of light is about 1.3 seconds which isn't too bad
  105. # [00:57] <Lachy> hopefully by then, physicists will have worked out how to make use of quantum entanglement of particles to transmit messages instantly over any distance
  106. # [00:57] <hdh> "Note that 120 sec is defined in the protocol as the maximum * possible RTT." from /usr/src/linux/net/inet/tcp.c
  107. # [00:57] <jgraham> Lachy: Only if the laws of physics as we know them are fundamentally wrong
  108. # [00:57] <annevk> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=455043 is sort of an interesting historical artifact :)
  109. # [00:58] <Lachy> jgraham, of course they're wrong. That's why they're *only* a theory!
  110. # [00:58] <Hixie> hdh: right
  111. # [00:58] <Lachy> ;-)
  112. # [00:58] <hdh> that comment mentioned Mars
  113. # [00:59] <jgraham> hdh: That might just be enough to communicate with Venus at the right time of year
  114. # [01:00] <jgraham> Mars is too far, I think
  115. # [01:00] <Hixie> hdh: can you find any evidence that tcp.c ever actually contained that?
  116. # [01:02] <hdh> http://www.linuxhq.com/kernel/v1.1/83/net/inet/tcp.c
  117. # [01:03] <hdh> I hope the part just cut out of the diff is the same as the fortune
  118. # [01:03] <annevk> Moz is doing Storage.clear() too?
  119. # [01:04] <Hixie> hdh: hm, your searching skills are better than mine
  120. # [01:04] <hdh> linux/net/inet/tcp.c mars -fortune
  121. # [01:04] <othermaciej> annevk: is their stuff still based on the old storage spec?
  122. # [01:05] <annevk> this is about implementing localStorage: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=422526
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  124. # [01:06] <othermaciej> I guess you could ask
  125. # [01:06] <annevk> petele from MS told me IE8B2 either has both async and sync or just sync btw (they did change something versus IE8B1)
  126. # [01:08] <annevk> also, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=455070
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  129. # [01:12] <Hixie> IE doesn't seem to support accept-charset at all.
  130. # [01:13] <Hixie> webkit doesn't seem to support _charset_
  131. # [01:13] <Hixie> which makes testing this a pain for webkit
  132. # [01:14] <Hixie> Mozilla supports it, only splits on spaces, and takes the first one
  133. # [01:14] <othermaciej> the charset mime parameter?
  134. # [01:14] <annevk> How is this: "There be dragons. Use UTF-8."
  135. # [01:14] <Hixie> (that it supports)
  136. # [01:14] <othermaciej> in what context?
  137. # [01:14] <Hixie> othermaciej: the magical <input type=hidden name=_charset_> value
  138. # [01:14] <othermaciej> oh
  139. # [01:14] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@207.210.52.200) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  140. # [01:15] <Hixie> opera supports both spaces and commas and picks the first one
  141. # [01:15] <Hixie> (that it supports, i assume, untested)
  142. # [01:17] <Hixie> hey, the tag has come across the vagueness of the html specs: http://www.w3.org/mid/OF08D6A3D0.C2A54890-ON852574C2.00793300-852574C2.007A5D9B@lotus.com
  143. # [01:20] <jgraham> What happened to the guy who was going to redesign the WHATWG blog?
  144. # [01:20] <jgraham> Because the current theme makes me want to poke my eyes out...
  145. # [01:21] <annevk> oh, don't do that
  146. # [01:21] <jgraham> :)
  147. # [01:23] <annevk> here is that post: http://www.brandonfrohs.com/2008/08/whatwg-they-know-html-dont-they/
  148. # [01:23] <annevk> seems he's been back for a few weeks
  149. # [01:23] <annevk> maybe we should chase him
  150. # [01:30] <Hixie> don't chase him :-) but do feel free to remind him politely :-)
  151. # [01:30] <Lachy> I'll contact him, if no-one else is
  152. # [01:32] <Lachy> I can't find an email or contact form for him, I'll just have to leave a comment
  153. # [01:36] <Lachy> done http://www.brandonfrohs.com/2008/08/whatwg-they-know-html-dont-they/#comment-38
  154. # [01:43] <Lachy> oh crap, there must be something wrong with the .htaccess on the blog
  155. # [01:43] <Lachy> http://blog.whatwg.org/2022 returns 404
  156. # [01:43] <Dashiva> You mean it's not 2022 yet?
  157. # [01:45] <Lachy> well, it can't be anything wrong with .htaccess, it must be a bug in the wordpress code
  158. # [01:46] <Lachy> probably because it thinks it's a year, not an article
  159. # [01:46] <Lachy> we'll have to move it
  160. # [01:47] <annevk> use two-thousand-twenty-two
  161. # [01:47] <jgraham> I must remmber this as a reason to make /2022/ and /2022 different
  162. # [01:47] <Dashiva> "Is it 2022 yet?"
  163. # [01:48] <Lachy> any suggestions for a new post slug?
  164. # [01:48] <jgraham> Dashiva: You've been asking that every five minutes since we left
  165. # [01:48] <annevk> Lachy, see above
  166. # [01:48] <Dashiva> See mine too
  167. # [01:48] <jgraham> Party like it's 2022
  168. # [01:50] <Lachy> http://blog.whatwg.org/two-thousand-twenty-two
  169. # [01:50] <Lachy> I'll set up a redirect for /2022 so we don't break links from RSS feeds
  170. # [01:50] <Dashiva> But Lachy, then the blog won't be consistent in 2022!
  171. # [01:51] <Dashiva> Think of the children (somewhat literally ;)
  172. # [01:51] <Lachy> done
  173. # [01:52] <Lachy> I made it a temporary redirect
  174. # [01:52] <Lachy> so we can remove it by then
  175. # [01:52] <annevk> better make it permanent then
  176. # [01:52] <annevk> 302 means you should keep the old URI around as it might redirect to something else later
  177. # [01:52] <annevk> 301 means the old URI should not be used or cached
  178. # [01:52] <Lachy> in 14 years, it will
  179. # [01:53] <annevk> fair enough, I suppose
  180. # [01:53] <Dashiva> Interesting point, though
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  182. # [01:54] <Dashiva> If the URLs current meaning has been permanently redirected, but you would like to put the URL into use again later, with a different meaning.... what redirect do you use?
  183. # [01:54] <Lachy> we should file a bug with wordpress so that they prevent post slugs like that which clash
  184. # [01:56] <hdh> I think 301 is better; in 2022 it will be 200, and there will be no record that it was redirection once
  185. # [01:57] <Lachy> hdh, you're assuming there aren't any tools or caches or whatever out there that keep permanent records of these things
  186. # [01:57] <Lachy> although, it's probably quite impractical to do so if people are careles and don't keep permanent redirects forever
  187. # [01:58] <Dashiva> It's not like people keep records of 410 URLs...
  188. # [01:59] <Lachy> 410 is different though
  189. # [01:59] <Dashiva> It's the same thing, just from the server's perspective
  190. # [01:59] <Lachy> browsers do keep records of 301's until the history is cleared
  191. # [01:59] <Lachy> so if someone never cleared their history, then it would affect them
  192. # [02:00] <Lachy> it's not the same thing. 410 means it's just gone, 301 means it's moved permanently elsewhere
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  194. # [02:01] <hdh> ok, I got the cachable part wrong
  195. # [02:01] <Dashiva> Both require one of them to remember "There's nothing at this here URL."
  196. # [02:02] <hdh> so my whole sentence is backward, 302 is correct
  197. # [02:03] <Dashiva> What if we modify the scenario: Redirect for a few years, then 404/410 for a few years, then a new page is added at the same URL.
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  202. # [02:19] <Hixie> how do i define form.reset()... hmm...
  203. # [02:20] <Dashiva> Along the line of this? for each input element in form.elements element.value = element.defaultValue
  204. # [02:25] <Hixie> the problem is <select> elements make this different
  205. # [02:25] <Hixie> and input checkbox and radio buttons too
  206. # [02:25] <Hixie> also i don't think it affects buttons
  207. # [02:25] <Hixie> lots of complications
  208. # [02:25] <Hixie> and i have to make sure i don't affect fieldsets
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  210. # [02:25] <Hixie> but i do have to affect <output> elements...
  211. # [02:25] <Dashiva> Yeah, I bet there'll be a lot of interesting edge cases to explore :)
  212. # [02:26] <Hixie> i might just define an algorithm for each element and just invoke that for each one
  213. # [02:26] <Hixie> oop for specs
  214. # [02:26] <Hixie> polymorphic english
  215. # [02:26] <Hixie> bbiab
  216. # [02:27] <Dashiva> Hmm... might be able to get away with less
  217. # [02:29] <Dashiva> Oh wait, you have to do the selects recursively to get options, right. Then it gets messy anyway.
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  250. # [07:54] <GregHouston> It's just a quick proof of concept, but for anyone interested I created a hack for using canvas/vml in a page viewed with IE8 beta 2 with the document mode set to IE8 Standards. http://greghoustondesign.com/examples/canvas-ie8/
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  252. # [08:51] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-155-4.dyn.iinet.net.au)
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  254. # [09:36] <annevk> GregHouston, hmm, I thought IE8B2 fixed VML
  255. # [09:39] <GregHouston> With excanvas it works in browser mode IE7 with document mode in quirks mode. With moocanvas it works in all 6 of the 8 modes. VML does not work in the IE8 standards mode at all however. So without a workaround you either get VML or the new CSS features.
  256. # [09:40] <GregHouston> *6 of the 8 modes, not all 6 of the 8 modes
  257. # [09:42] <othermaciej> 8 modes?
  258. # [09:45] <Hixie> wait what? they removed VML?
  259. # [09:45] <annevk> I hope it's a known bug
  260. # [09:45] <GregHouston> Haha, yeah: So you have combinations of browser modes and document modes. Fun stuff.
  261. # [09:46] <GregHouston> Sorry, this is long:
  262. # [09:46] <GregHouston> - Browser Mode: IE7, Document Mode: Quirks Mode
  263. # [09:46] <GregHouston> - Browser Mode: IE7, Document Mode: IE7 Standards Mode
  264. # [09:46] <GregHouston> - Browser Mode: IE8, Document Mode: Quirks Mode
  265. # [09:46] <GregHouston> - Browser Mode: IE8, Document Mode: IE7 Standards Mode
  266. # [09:46] <GregHouston> - Browser Mode: IE8, Document Mode: IE8 Standards Mode
  267. # [09:46] <annevk> Hixie, Option is a NamedConstructor
  268. # [09:46] <GregHouston> - Browser Mode: IE8 Compatibility View, Document Mode: Quirks Mode
  269. # [09:46] <GregHouston> - Browser Mode: IE8 Compatibility View, Document Mode: IE7 Standards Mode
  270. # [09:46] <GregHouston> - Browser Mode: IE8 Compatibility View, Document Mode: IE8 Standards Mode
  271. # [09:46] <GregHouston> No, they closed the ticket on VML the same day IE8 beta 2 came out. It just says: Closed by design.
  272. # [09:47] <annevk> sigh
  273. # [09:47] <Hixie> wow, good times
  274. # [09:47] <Hixie> competing with IE is gonna be easy if they just shoot themselvs in the foot the whole time
  275. # [09:48] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  276. # [09:49] <hsivonen> what will devs do? not support IE8? switch to IE 7 mode? use silverlight? Use flash? use Renesis? Use vlad's canvas control?
  277. # [09:49] <Hixie> GregHouston: so what is Browser Mode: IE7?
  278. # [09:50] <annevk> Hixie, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=444222 is relevant for Window.name
  279. # [09:50] <Hixie> hsivonen: VML was never a serious solution for canvas anyway
  280. # [09:50] * Joins: itpastorn (n=itpastor@139.57.227.87.static.th.siw.siwnet.net)
  281. # [09:50] <Hixie> annevk: please send feedback by e-mail or bug report, i am not in a position to take notes right now
  282. # [09:50] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  283. # [09:51] <hsivonen> what's MS's refusal to implement canvas about? Apple's patents before HTML5 is a REC? Silverlight team? something else?
  284. # [09:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: they haven't refused to implement it have they?
  285. # [09:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: oops. s/refusal/failure to prioritize to coincide with VML removal/
  286. # [09:53] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  287. # [09:53] <annevk> I heard Apple patents again yesterday when petele replied to a question regarding <canvas>
  288. # [09:54] <GregHouston> Hixie, truthfully, it is still all rather confusing to me. With the developer bar in IE8 you can see what modes a page defaults to. How the browser mode is set is still unclear to me. You can set a page to quirks supposedly by not using a doctype. You can set it to IE7 Standars with the X-UA-Compatible meta tag.
  289. # [09:54] <GregHouston> With the toolbar you can test pages in all 8 modes to see what works. :D
  290. # [09:56] <GregHouston> Here is the first VML example I get on Google. It defaults to browser mode IE8, and document Quirks Mode. If you try to view it in IE8 Standards the VML dissappears. http://web.syr.edu/~prai/
  291. # [09:58] <hsivonen> isn't VML more standard than canvas or SVG now that VML is in an ISO standard?
  292. # [09:58] * weinig is now known as weinig|zZz
  293. # [10:01] <Hixie> hsivonen: i doubt it is anything but lack of resources
  294. # [10:06] <Hixie> VML is an ISO standard?
  295. # [10:06] <Hixie> i really shouldn't ask these questions
  296. # [10:06] <GregHouston> hsivonen: How do I parse this: s/refusal/failure to prioritize to coincide with VML removal/
  297. # [10:09] <annevk> Hixie, part of OOXML iirc
  298. # [10:09] <hsivonen> GregHouston: substitute "refusal" with "/failure to prioritize to coincide with VML removal
  299. # [10:09] <hsivonen> "
  300. # [10:09] <GregHouston> Thanks.
  301. # [10:10] <annevk> dfn.js is nice
  302. # [10:12] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  303. # [10:15] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  304. # [10:20] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@87.102.18.38)
  305. # [10:21] <GregHouston> Just one last comment on this subject. I created a ticket for canvas in IE8 back in March. It was originally set to "Closed by design". At some point however they changed it to Closed (Postponed). So that is somewhat encouraging. https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=334060
  306. # [10:25] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/chats/transcripts/08_0515_ez_ie8.mspx says of <canvas>, "In part because the specification still is in flux, this will not be in the IE8 product."
  307. # [10:25] <othermaciej> what kind of a crazy bug state is Closed (Postponed)
  308. # [10:26] <othermaciej> either the bug is invalid or it isn't
  309. # [10:26] <GregHouston> Haha
  310. # [10:27] <Philip`> GregHouston: That http://web.syr.edu/~prai/ page breaks because it uses non-standard CSS, which IE8 doesn't support since it tries to do CSS properly - see https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=333905
  311. # [10:28] <Philip`> It should still work if you use <?import ...?> instead, as far as I'm aware
  312. # [10:28] <hsivonen> othermaciej: "REMIND and LATER considered harmful"
  313. # [10:29] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I never understood how REMIND or LATER were valid resolutions
  314. # [10:29] <othermaciej> those are maybe milestones, not bug states
  315. # [10:33] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  316. # [10:34] <GregHouston> Philip: interesting.
  317. # [10:37] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  318. # [10:38] <Philip`> This isn't a bug tracker that Microsoft uses to track bugs and feature requests - it's just telling customers that Microsoft has acknowledged their issue but is not going to fix it in this release
  319. # [10:38] <Philip`> I would assume their internal bug tracker is better at handling not-going-to-fix-it-yet-but-maybe-in-the-future issues
  320. # [10:41] * Joins: epeus (n=KevinMar@72.14.224.1)
  321. # [10:41] * hsivonen wonders if Chrome is going to silently autoupgrade to major releases--not just security patches...
  322. # [10:43] * Philip` wonders if there will ever be a major release, or if will always be 0.2 Beta
  323. # [10:43] <othermaciej> I believe their position is they will upgrade you when they feel like it
  324. # [10:43] <othermaciej> you don't get a version, you get a "channel"
  325. # [10:43] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@ool-182f8118.dyn.optonline.net)
  326. # [10:44] <othermaciej> they want to update it "as often as a Web app" which to me sounds a little naiive but maybe they are smarter
  327. # [10:44] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  328. # [10:45] <hsivonen> ok. It'll be interesting to see the competitive effect of that kind of "channel"
  329. # [10:47] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  330. # [10:50] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  331. # [10:51] * Joins: ronny (n=ronny@ronny.uberhost.de)
  332. # [10:51] <ronny> hi
  333. # [10:53] <annevk> hi
  334. # [10:53] <ronny> what are the reasons for inventing an own format for event streams instead of using an xml event stream?
  335. # [10:53] <annevk> simpler
  336. # [10:54] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl)
  337. # [10:55] <ronny> annevk: from my point of view its more complex, basically all browsers already got some kind of sax parser, and it allows to just drop strucutred data to the client, while the new thing is some weird obscure text format that needs a new parser
  338. # [10:56] <othermaciej> as a browser engine implementer, I'd rather write a parser for a trivial custom format than to use an XML format
  339. # [10:57] <Hixie> ronny: XML streaming doesn't make sense really (XMPP notwithstanding)
  340. # [10:58] <ronny> Hixie: hu?
  341. # [10:59] <ronny> xmpp is basically just an evetn-stream, i dont see why browsers shouldnt get something semilar
  342. # [10:59] <Hixie> XML doesn't define where a well-formedness error occurs exactly, so it's unclear where a stream should halt if there is a well-formedness error, for instance
  343. # [10:59] <Hixie> XMPP is not a good design, imho
  344. # [11:00] <Hixie> also, XML isn't really appropriate here. What we have is a streaming series of name/value pair dictionaries
  345. # [11:00] <Hixie> XML describes a single tree structure
  346. # [11:01] <Hixie> mapping a streaming series of name/value pair dictionaries onto a tree structure is an unnatural mapping
  347. # [11:02] <ronny> how is that so much different to something like <name>value</name>
  348. # [11:02] * Joins: roc (n=chatzill@121-72-162-122.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  349. # [11:03] <Hixie> "value" can contain other elements, and can contain attributes
  350. # [11:03] <Hixie> er, and "name" can contain attributes
  351. # [11:03] <Hixie> XML describes an annotated tree
  352. # [11:03] <ronny> yeah, and how is that currently relevant?
  353. # [11:03] <othermaciej> ooh yeah I forgot about the streaming aspect
  354. # [11:04] <Hixie> annotated trees are a very different data structure than name/value pair dictionary streams
  355. # [11:04] <othermaciej> streaming xml is nuts
  356. # [11:05] <ronny> why?
  357. # [11:05] <ronny> its basically just a series of annotated events
  358. # [11:05] <othermaciej> because it requires draconian error handling, but you can't tell whether an error occurred for sure until you get to the end of the document
  359. # [11:05] <othermaciej> so streaming it violates a fundamental premise of XML
  360. # [11:06] <ronny> brb, called away
  361. # [11:06] <othermaciej> (unless you send whole separate well-formed documents, but I don't think anyone considers that wise)
  362. # [11:06] <othermaciej> XMPP is a dancing bear trick
  363. # [11:08] <Philip`> It's fun making ejabberd send namespace-ill-formed output to arbitrary clients and causing them to drop their connection
  364. # [11:12] * epeus is now known as KevinMarks
  365. # [11:18] <hsivonen> othermaciej: you can do useful things without ever reaching the end of an XML document
  366. # [11:19] <hsivonen> in practice, streaming XML is tacitly well-defined except for the exact error byte within a tag
  367. # [11:19] <othermaciej> hsivonen: it just seems sloppy to me
  368. # [11:20] <othermaciej> maybe a notion of "well defined fragment" and then sending a series of those would somehow make me feel better
  369. # [11:20] <othermaciej> but ideally you want error recovery so a single ill-formed fragment doesn't poison your connection
  370. # [11:20] <othermaciej> but also XML is a poor format for simple key-value pair data
  371. # [11:20] <hsivonen> sure
  372. # [11:23] <Philip`> XMPP says "An XML stanza exists at the direct child level of the root <stream/> element and is said to be well-balanced if it matches the production [43] content of [XML].", which sounds like that notion
  373. # [11:23] <Philip`> s/XMPP/RFC 3920 (as used by XMPP)/
  374. # [11:24] <Hixie> if i have a cd in a mac, and it somehow got unmounted, how do i remount it again without ejecting it and reinserting it?
  375. # [11:24] <Hixie> i am ssh'ed into the machine and have remote desktop but i don't want to have to walk over to the living room to reinsert the disk...
  376. # [11:26] <Lachy> Hixie, try Disk Utility
  377. # [11:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: using remote desktop, you should be able to mount it with Disk Utility
  378. # [11:33] * Hixie tries
  379. # [11:33] <Hixie> sweet that worked
  380. # [11:33] <Hixie> i wonder what the equivalent command line command would be
  381. # [11:34] <Hixie> thanks, btw
  382. # [11:43] <Lachy> Hixie, it's probably the mount command, but I don't know how to use it
  383. # [11:43] <ronny> re
  384. # [11:44] <ronny> othermaciej: since the stream is supposed to be valid i dont see whats wrong in considering a invalid fragment a critical error
  385. # [11:44] * Quits: jmb (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  386. # [11:45] <othermaciej> ronny: it's a needlessly brittle way to design a high-level protocol IMO
  387. # [11:45] <ronny> othermaciej: these days generating invalid xml has only 2 causes - being malicious or being incompetent
  388. # [11:45] <Hixie> hah
  389. # [11:45] <othermaciej> it is silly to have the inefficiency of a text-based protocol and the brittleness of a binary protocol
  390. # [11:45] <othermaciej> ronny: saying that in this channel will earn you derisive laughter
  391. # [11:45] <Hixie> ronny: do you have any software that generates xml?
  392. # [11:45] * hsivonen laughs
  393. # [11:46] * Hixie prepares the Philip` Gun (tm)
  394. # [11:46] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Remote closed the connection)
  395. # [11:46] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  396. # [11:46] <ronny> Hixie: yeah, im very keen on keeping it valid, i dont want to be as incompetent as the other oart of the 80:20 rule
  397. # [11:47] <othermaciej> ronny: sorry for being blunt, but experience seems to show that even world-class XML experts cannot avoid generating invalid XML with their software
  398. # [11:47] <othermaciej> there has been much discussion of that phenomenon in these circles and it is part of why we think the HTML classic syntax of HTML5, and the well-defined error handling, is important
  399. # [11:48] <Hixie> ronny: as far as i am aware Philip` has never found any XML generating software that can't be tricked into outputting non-wellformed XML, so if you have a candidate for his testing skills, i'm certainly interested in a URL to give him :-)
  400. # [11:48] <othermaciej> it's not just a legacy thing, it is a feature to have a relatively error-tolerant delivery format when dealing with heterogenous producers and consumers
  401. # [11:48] <Hixie> "be tolerant in what you receive", as the saying goes, though tolerant in the very specific way defined in the spec, as i say
  402. # [11:49] <othermaciej> and it seems to me that chat is a case where the same benefits could accrue
  403. # [11:49] <ronny> hmm
  404. # [11:49] <othermaciej> it's just not mission-critical enough for anything that serious people want to get in there and redesign the protocols
  405. # [11:49] <ronny> ok
  406. # [11:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: Philip` hasn't found holes in validator.nu XML output since I got rid of third-party XML serialization code
  407. # [11:50] <Hixie> hsivonen: it hardly counts if you consider software that has reaped the benefits of his testing already
  408. # [11:51] <ronny> i yet have to dig something up that requires disasterous testing
  409. # [11:52] <othermaciej> ronny: anyway, I hope that even if you still disagree, that you can at least see that the custom event stream protocol was not random or thoughtless but actually based on giving the issues a fair amount of consideration
  410. # [11:52] <ronny> well, i dont have to like it
  411. # [11:52] <Hixie> the event stream protocol was in fact designed to make it impossible to output invalid streams
  412. # [11:53] <Hixie> (at the syntax level)
  413. # [11:53] <othermaciej> I am merely asking you to understand at this point, not to like :-)
  414. # [11:53] <ronny> bit given your input it seems much more nice
  415. # [11:53] <Hixie> i believe there isn't a single byte combination that can't be unambiguously parsed without error
  416. # [11:53] <Hixie> in that format
  417. # [11:53] <ronny> hmm
  418. # [11:53] <Hixie> so in a way it does have draconian error handling like xml... there just aren't any possible errors :-)
  419. # [11:54] <othermaciej> gotta quit for some testing, I'll be back
  420. # [11:54] <othermaciej> Hixie: that does sort of finesse the issue
  421. # [11:54] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  422. # [11:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: in a way, yyeah, ut the new code is independent of the Apache/Lotus-originating code
  423. # [11:54] <hsivonen> but
  424. # [11:54] <ronny> btw, i think its wrong to give programmers any silent error-tolerant savety net for their own errors
  425. # [11:55] <ronny> they arent users, they should know better, and they should be punished for not knowing
  426. # [11:55] <Hixie> ronny: i agree that programmers shouldn't get their errors ignored, but the users shouldn't be exposed to the errors if errors slip through
  427. # [11:55] <ronny> Hixie: well, will browsers have a way to disable html5 error recovery?
  428. # [11:56] <ronny> (i mean a well defined way that allows to dump my own stupid erros just into my face)
  429. # [11:56] <Hixie> most already do, just open the error console in e.g. firefox, safari, chrome, or opera
  430. # [11:58] <Hixie> i suppose browsers could have a way to just abort as soon as an error is output on the error console, but that would make debugging hard since you couldn't do anything until you'd fixed all the errors before the one you were debugging
  431. # [11:59] <annevk> CSS extensions would make that really annoying
  432. # [11:59] * hsivonen wonders what dumping HTML5 parse errors to console would do to Firefox perf
  433. # [11:59] <hsivonen> or browser perf in general
  434. # [12:01] <ronny> browsers should indicate how incappable the creator of the site is (ie show how stupid he is at making valid html5 that doesnt need any recovery)
  435. # [12:01] <jgraham> indicate to whom?
  436. # [12:01] <jgraham> And why?
  437. # [12:02] <annevk> someone requested a Web Workers diff, lots of people have requested html5 diffs meanwhile
  438. # [12:02] <ronny> well, people would care to fix if the browsers shows every lillle stupid thing they did
  439. # [12:02] <ronny> after all it is bad for reputation
  440. # [12:02] <annevk> based on the little amount of != 10 context diffs I suspect hsivonen to use context 50
  441. # [12:04] <hsivonen> annevk: IIRC, I've used 200
  442. # [12:04] <annevk> ronny, it would just be annoying for end users and they would switch to some browser that was simpler
  443. # [12:04] <jgraham> You mean like an icon that was end-user visible? Since that would show up on >90% of web sites people wouldn't really associate it with badness in the site
  444. # [12:04] <annevk> hsivonen, really? that's not in my cache list, hmm
  445. # [12:04] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  446. # [12:04] <hsivonen> annevk: I haven't diffed in a recent days, though
  447. # [12:04] <Hixie> ronny: based on studies we've done looking at literally billions of pages on the Web, somewhere in the region of more than 90% of Web sites have at least one error, so users would just see the indicator on most of hte Web and it would lose meaning
  448. # [12:05] <annevk> hsivonen, ok
  449. # [12:05] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  450. # [12:06] <ronny> Hixie: well, one error isnt really stupid, it should be an icon that indicates the error rate, ie the more errors, the more incappable is the site-creator
  451. # [12:06] <annevk> seems rather rude to me
  452. # [12:07] <Hixie> ronny: there are hundreds of errors on common sites like cnn.com, i don't think most users care and i doubt cnn.com cares whether a browser says they're any good or not
  453. # [12:07] <ronny> annevk: thats the point, 1 error is most likely just overlooking something, but when it goes into the hundreds its bah
  454. # [12:07] <Hixie> ronny: but feel free to ask browser vendors to do it :-) (i hear iCab does it, you might want to use that)
  455. # [12:08] <annevk> ronny, doesn't mean we should bother end users with silly icons
  456. # [12:08] <ronny> annevk: well, how else would one spread awareness?
  457. # [12:09] <jgraham> ronny: If the browser displays "500 errors" (or whatever) on cnn.com it makes the browser, nt the site look worse
  458. # [12:09] <takkaria> someone needs to tell John Foliot to stop the +1 posts
  459. # [12:09] <annevk> ronny, education, advocatism, Web Standards Project, etc.
  460. # [12:09] <jgraham> ronny: Why do you care about spreading awareness?
  461. # [12:09] <othermaciej> I think browser developer tools should include built-in support for validation
  462. # [12:09] <jgraham> takkaria: +1
  463. # [12:10] <ronny> annevk: that doesnt make normal users aware
  464. # [12:10] <othermaciej> I think it would be cool if Safari's Web Inspector let you validate your CSS and HTML
  465. # [12:10] <annevk> ronny, my mom will never care
  466. # [12:10] <othermaciej> maybe even lint your JavaScript using someone's tool
  467. # [12:10] <GregHouston> The Opera error console already shows errors for html, as well as an assortment of other things, xml, css, javascript, svg. Plus you can filter them.
  468. # [12:10] <othermaciej> normal users don't care and shouldn't have to
  469. # [12:10] <annevk> ronny, normal users shouldn't be bothered with mistakes of others, would just annoy them
  470. # [12:11] <othermaciej> imagine if your television pointed out every continuity error or instance of poor writing in the TV shows you watch
  471. # [12:11] <othermaciej> that would be pretty annoying
  472. # [12:11] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@La51a.l.pppool.de)
  473. # [12:11] <othermaciej> most of us here are Web technology geeks and care about things like content conformance and what the errors are
  474. # [12:12] <othermaciej> but normal people just don't care
  475. # [12:12] <othermaciej> any more than we care to hear about awkward camera angles or bad lighting when watching tv
  476. # [12:12] <othermaciej> or poor quality paper or ink when reading a magazine
  477. # [12:12] * hsivonen points to the bookmarklets on http://about.validator.nu
  478. # [12:13] <othermaciej> most people use the Web for the content, not the technical details of the medium
  479. # [12:13] <othermaciej> and we have to be humble enough to realize that
  480. # [12:14] <othermaciej> to draw a more technical analogy, what if your iPhone or Mac or PC or whatever told you about every compiler warning each time you launch an app
  481. # [12:15] <othermaciej> when I run Firefox I don't really care that "warning: enumeration value ‘LIR64’ not handled in switch"
  482. # [12:15] <othermaciej> I would guess you do not either
  483. # [12:15] <GregHouston> If I had to click through error messages for every fault in my home I would never make it through the front door.
  484. # [12:16] <othermaciej> even I as a well versed C++ hacker would have no idea what to do with the knowledge that on line 1050, "warning: pointer targets in passing argument 2 of ‘strcmp’ differ in signedness"
  485. # [12:17] <othermaciej> (these are real error messages from building the JS parts of Gecko, btw, and I am sure they are useful to the developers of Gecko, but would not be to a Firefox user)
  486. # [12:17] <othermaciej> (but to most normal people html validation errors would sound about as comprehensible as those C++ warnings)
  487. # [12:17] <othermaciej> sorry for ranting
  488. # [12:17] <Hixie> it would be more like your TV reporting every teletext formatting error, every cable programme guide data syntax error, every tuning error
  489. # [12:17] <othermaciej> it's just such a pet peeve of mine
  490. # [12:18] <roc> every time the browser detects a conformance error, the site operator is taxed 1c
  491. # [12:18] <othermaciej> oh man if I could get a penny for every warning my compiler finds while building mozilla...
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  494. # [12:18] <jgraham> ronny: As you may have noticed you are not the first person to suggest such a thing :)
  495. # [12:19] <ronny> yeah
  496. # [12:19] <ronny> well, it should be irelevant what errors there are
  497. # [12:19] <ronny> just tell the user the people making the site are incappable of doing it right
  498. # [12:19] <othermaciej> would you like to be told what native apps on your OS of choice had compiler warnings every time you launch?
  499. # [12:19] <Lachy> http://www.brandonfrohs.com/2008/08/whatwg-they-know-html-dont-they/#comment-39
  500. # [12:20] <othermaciej> "warning, Adium was written by silly people who left in 52 compiler warnings!"
  501. # [12:20] <othermaciej> (no offense to any Adium developers present and I am sure it is in fact a wonderful piece of software)
  502. # [12:20] <ronny> othermaciej: that would be nice, cause im pretty sure that would get fixed
  503. # [12:20] <Lachy> Adium certainly is buggy
  504. # [12:21] <othermaciej> it would get whatever OS is doing it uninstalled
  505. # [12:21] <othermaciej> users hate useless warnings and error messages and such
  506. # [12:21] <othermaciej> for a lot of people, it just makes them fearful of using the computer
  507. # [12:22] <othermaciej> you should never display an error message to the user when you have successfully recovered and there is no choice the user needs to make
  508. # [12:22] <othermaciej> that's human interface design 101
  509. # [12:22] <ronny> othermaciej: uh, wouldnt that got vista uninstalled like AGES ago?
  510. # [12:22] <Hixie> vista isn't exactly having a roaring success
  511. # [12:22] <Lachy> as a real example, I really hate how VLC reports error messages almost every time I watch a DVD with it
  512. # [12:22] <ronny> well, its stil around
  513. # [12:22] <Hixie> it may in fact be the best example of othermaciej's point yet raised in this discussion
  514. # [12:22] <jgraham> Vista displays all he compile time warnings on startup?
  515. # [12:23] <jgraham> I guess the security stuff?
  516. # [12:23] <Lachy> every time, the errors are meaningless to me, yet there's no way I've found to disable them completely
  517. # [12:23] <ronny> hmm, if the error notification is modal, there is something wrong
  518. # [12:23] <othermaciej> ronny: I hate to break it to you, but: <http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/archives/130626.asp>
  519. # [12:24] <Hixie> <form> is nearly done!
  520. # [12:24] <othermaciej> getting vista uninstalled is a service many people want to pay for
  521. # [12:24] * jgraham actually has no idea what warnings vista does display having almost entirely avoided it
  522. # [12:24] <Hixie> right, bed time
  523. # [12:24] <Hixie> nn
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  527. # [12:25] <ronny> othermaciej: well, if those messages are modal dialogs, its done wrong from the beginnings
  528. # [12:26] <ronny> it should be more like the "oh, i blocked populs" notifications of firefox that appears, then disappears without much hassle and without blocking anything
  529. # [12:27] <jgraham> ronny: Most warnings may as well read "Two Jabberwockys have been froobed". There is no point in displaying that ever
  530. # [12:29] <ronny> k
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  540. # [14:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: I take it that the XML submission format got killed?
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  542. # [14:45] <annevk> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%40whatwg
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  550. # [15:23] * gsnedders smacks .ac.uk sites for needing www.
  551. # [15:27] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
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  553. # [15:28] <jgraham> gsnedders: That annoys me _so_ much
  554. # [15:29] <jgraham> cam.ac.uk has/had a policy that all public facing webserver subdomains need to start with www leading to craziness like www-xray.ast.cam.ac.uk
  555. # [15:29] * gsnedders facedesks
  556. # [15:31] * hsivonen finds http://openandclosed.org/topics/fileformats/
  557. # [15:31] * Parts: ronny (n=ronny@ronny.uberhost.de)
  558. # [15:34] <hsivonen> aaronlev: Do you know what Joe Clark's non-profit is up to with file formats?
  559. # [15:35] <aaronlev> no
  560. # [15:35] <webben> hsivonen: JC has some proposals as to what the file format should do.
  561. # [15:35] <webben> I don't think he's gotten the funds to actually spec it though.
  562. # [15:37] <webben> oh, I think that page used to have more details
  563. # [15:37] <webben> ah ha
  564. # [15:37] <webben> hsivonen: http://openandclosed.org/docs/AccessibilityExchange.html
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  566. # [15:37] <hsivonen> webben: tanks
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  572. # [16:06] <jgraham> Argh. I have exactly one bibtex entry amongst several hundred that is not working and I have no idea why
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  577. # [16:38] <annevk> zcorpan, http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-minutes.html#item06
  578. # [16:39] <annevk> http://www.windowsfordevices.com/news/NS6599416217.html o_O
  579. # [16:42] <hsivonen> annevk: interesting how the first lines are about 'obligation' and 'simply thanking him'
  580. # [16:43] <takkaria> looks like they didn't really want feedback at all
  581. # [16:43] <annevk> yeah
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  583. # [16:48] <takkaria> an interesting link from earlier up in the minutes:
  584. # [16:48] <takkaria> http://www.dev-archive.net/articles/xhtml.html#recommendations
  585. # [16:48] <hsivonen> "even had to disabuse TBL of XHTML as failure canard"
  586. # [16:48] <takkaria> someone in the XHTML WG is working on that, and seems to basically recommend not serving XHTML
  587. # [16:49] <annevk> hehe, that presenter was me I think, though I believe I was clear on the text/html thing
  588. # [16:50] <takkaria> unless you want to use MathML or Ruby, in which case you should use XHTML
  589. # [16:51] <annevk> well, not anymore :)
  590. # [16:51] * Joins: epeus (n=KevinMar@c-98-207-134-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  591. # [16:51] <takkaria> quite
  592. # [16:52] <takkaria> I wish the XHTML people would stop pretending XHTML served as text/html is XHTML
  593. # [16:54] <hsivonen> takkaria: at least the document has an HTML 4.01 doctype
  594. # [16:54] <hsivonen> and <meta name="keywords" content="$keywords">
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  596. # [16:55] <takkaria> good times
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  599. # [16:57] <hsivonen> also, talks about "XHTML WG"
  600. # [17:00] <annevk> I'm somewhat displeased by the HTML WG being referred to as HTML5 WG and the XHTML2 WG as XHTML WG
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  604. # [17:10] <hsivonen> otherwise, the content of the article is refreshingly accurate
  605. # [17:12] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Aug/0137.html
  606. # [17:20] <takkaria> all the words these RDF people use to talk about things confuse me
  607. # [17:28] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-236-33.range81-156.btcentralplus.com)
  608. # [17:30] <hsivonen> "an obvious next step will be to define HTML+RDFa." -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Sep/0028.html
  609. # [17:33] <deane> hsivonen: yeah, I saw that. As if they weren't already stepping over the mark. HTML+RDFa is our domain, surely. Not that anyone's interested in it.
  610. # [17:34] <takkaria> seems a bit lame to say "we're not using CURIEs since the spec isn't ready, we'll just define it ourselves"
  611. # [17:35] * annevk -> away
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  618. # [19:04] <hsivonen> where's the implementation report for XHTML 1.1?
  619. # [19:08] <webben> hsivonen: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/xhtml-m12n-11-implementation.html ?
  620. # [19:11] <hsivonen> webben: that's for Modularization--not for the XHTML 1.1 language
  621. # [19:11] <hsivonen> webben: that report doesn't cover implementations of the language in agents
  622. # [19:11] <webben> I see.
  623. # [19:12] <hsivonen> webben: it just says that their schemas worked with three validator engines
  624. # [19:12] <webben> Does someone say there is an implementation report?
  625. # [19:12] <hsivonen> webben: It's a REC and was edited recently
  626. # [19:13] <webben> I'm confused, how can an implementation report be a REC?
  627. # [19:13] <hsivonen> webben: XHTML 1.1 is a REC
  628. # [19:13] <webben> oh right
  629. # [19:14] <hsivonen> (unless new editions of old RECs are exempt of the implementation report requirement)
  630. # [19:15] * webben doesn't know what requirement that is. I probably dunno enough of the context of what you're asking for to be helpful, so I'll just shut up it. :)
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  635. # [19:52] <Hixie> "XHTML 1.1 doesn't need an implementation report, it's basically just HTML4 with XML, and both of those are in REC"
  636. # [19:54] <Dashiva> What could go wrong?
  637. # [19:54] * Joins: lbruno (n=lbruno@vs3-84-91-64-164.netvisao.pt)
  638. # [19:55] <webben> heh
  639. # [19:56] * lbruno says hi
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  644. # [20:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: is that an actual quote?
  645. # [20:07] * hsivonen can't detect sarcasm on this topic
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  648. # [20:19] <Lachy> hsivonen, in your html5 live dom viewer, I can't figure out what the last parameter of window.parseHtmlDocument() is supposed to do:
  649. # [20:19] <Lachy> window.parseHtmlDocument(textarea.value, iframe.contentWindow.document, afterParse, null);
  650. # [20:20] <Lachy> it doesn't look like it's actually used for anything in the function instelf, it just looks like an unused parameter
  651. # [20:20] <hsivonen> Lachy: it's an unimplemented error reporting callback
  652. # [20:21] <Lachy> ok
  653. # [20:21] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes, it is unused
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  658. # [20:23] <Lachy> does this whole function work by parsing the textarea, creating all the nodes using the DOM APIs, and then inserting them into iframe.contentWindow.document?
  659. # [20:23] <Lachy> effectively replacing the document.write() call in Hixie's dom viewer?
  660. # [20:25] <Lachy> I'm going to try and get both HTML5 and browser parsing integrated into my HTML5 Tools beta, side by side, with a UI to switch between them
  661. # [20:26] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes, and after it si done, it calls afterParse()
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  668. # [21:34] <gsnedders> What the derivative of \sin^2 3x?
  669. # [21:34] * gsnedders is sure he's doing something stupid
  670. # [21:36] <gsnedders> Hmm. Calculator online says I'm write and answer in textbook is wrong.
  671. # [21:37] <Philip`> I bet it's not 6 sin^2 3x cos 3x
  672. # [21:38] <gsnedders> Philip`: So do I :)
  673. # [21:38] <gsnedders> Philip`: I think 6\sin 3x\cos 3x
  674. # [21:39] <gsnedders> Philip`: Textbook thinks 6\sin 3x
  675. # [21:39] <Philip`> Maxima agrees with you
  676. # [21:39] <gsnedders> I learnt not to trust textbook given answers I while ago :)
  677. # [21:39] <gsnedders> *a
  678. # [21:39] <Philip`> Bah, I've forgotten how the chain rule works :-(
  679. # [21:39] <gsnedders> Philip`: n00b.
  680. # [21:40] <lbruno> I should know this too.
  681. # [21:40] <gsnedders> Times by the power, the bracket with the power reduced by one, and the derivative of the content of the bracket
  682. # [21:40] * lbruno is just a random passer by
  683. # [21:40] <gsnedders> s/Times by/Times the/
  684. # [21:41] <gsnedders> s/the the/the.
  685. # [21:41] <gsnedders> s/the the/the/
  686. # [21:41] <gsnedders> Hmm, that's not very good typing
  687. # [21:41] <lbruno> gsnedders: that's true! I was deriving to cos, as in (sin 3x)^2.
  688. # [21:41] <lbruno> dumb mistaek
  689. # [21:42] <gsnedders> lbruno: It is (sin 3x)^2
  690. # [21:42] <gsnedders> lbruno: It's just you need to keep (sin 3x)^1
  691. # [21:42] <Lachy> I hated finding derivatives, it never made any sense to me
  692. # [21:43] * gsnedders concludes this isn't a good place to ask about maths
  693. # [21:43] <lbruno> 2 * sin(3x) * cos(3x)?
  694. # [21:43] <gsnedders> ianloic: No, 3cos3x
  695. # [21:43] <gsnedders> lbruno: sin nx derives to ncos nx
  696. # [21:44] * Philip` works out where he got stupidly confused
  697. # [21:45] <lbruno> butbut... I failed Calculus I and II, don't listen to me anyway
  698. # [21:45] * Philip` uses the excuse that he's only exposed to discrete maths nowadays
  699. # [21:45] <lbruno> now I see where the 6* came from
  700. # [21:46] <Philip`> (and if I really need to differentiate, I can use Maxima :-) )
  701. # [21:46] <gsnedders> (This is homework due for last Thursday, BTW)
  702. # [21:46] <gsnedders> :D
  703. # [21:46] * lbruno appreciates the refresher
  704. # [21:46] <gsnedders> (That was one of the simple ones)
  705. # [21:46] <gsnedders> Most of the hard things I can do :P
  706. # [21:46] <Philip`> (although that is admittedly slower and more error-prone than calculating it by hand)
  707. # [21:47] * gsnedders doesn't claim to know anything about A-Level maths, on grounds he isn't doing it
  708. # [21:47] <gsnedders> so I have no idea what Philip` (once) knew
  709. # [21:48] <lbruno> I can only give my warmest encouragement to those who have to know this
  710. # [21:48] * Philip` did that and Further Maths and another three modules just for fun, but has forgotten most of it
  711. # [21:48] <lbruno> I wonder what A-level means
  712. # [21:48] * lbruno is from .pt
  713. # [21:49] <lbruno> s,vel ,vel maths,
  714. # [21:49] <gsnedders> .pt?
  715. # [21:50] <lbruno> Portugal
  716. # [21:50] <gsnedders> ah
  717. # [21:50] <Philip`> lbruno: They're the exams (and associated courses) for age ~16-18 (just before university) in sensible parts of the UK
  718. # [21:50] <jgraham> gsnedders: Now integrate sin^2 3x :)
  719. # [21:50] <gsnedders> jgraham: No :P
  720. # [21:51] <gsnedders> jgraham: I always forget how to integrate.
  721. # [21:51] <jgraham> gsnedders: It's much more fun than differentiating it :)
  722. # [21:51] <jgraham> gsnedders: The problem with integration is that in general nothing works. There are a few special cases where you can work things out
  723. # [21:52] <gsnedders> :P
  724. # [21:52] <Philip`> (3x-(sin 6x)/2)/2 - easy!
  725. # [21:52] <Philip`> Um
  726. # [21:52] <gsnedders> Philip`: Nope
  727. # [21:52] <Philip`> (3x-(sin 6x)/2)/6 - easy!
  728. # [21:52] <gsnedders> Philip`: wrong
  729. # [21:52] <Philip`> That's what Maxima says :-)
  730. # [21:52] <gsnedders> Philip`: + c :)
  731. # [21:52] <Philip`> That's just pointless pedantry :-p
  732. # [21:53] <lbruno> Philip`: education here lacks good sense too (generally)
  733. # [21:53] <gsnedders> Philip`: No, it's a requirement in the marking scheme :P
  734. # [21:53] <lbruno> gsnedders: same here. +C is "a very good habit"
  735. # [21:54] <lbruno> but then we all look the other way and proceed to ignore it, as it's too much work
  736. # [21:54] <gsnedders> Philip`: http://xkcd.com/385/
  737. # [21:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: how does Maxima compare to Mathematica?
  738. # [21:54] <Philip`> (Also, I forgot about the c)
  739. # [21:54] <Philip`> hsivonen: All I know is it's much cheaper
  740. # [21:55] <hsivonen> :-)
  741. # [21:55] <gsnedders> I've only done one more subquestion since this started!
  742. # [21:55] * jgraham has a hate/hate relationship with mathematica
  743. # [21:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: So a 1 relationship with mathematica?
  744. # [21:55] <hsivonen> Mathematica has rather dramatic price discrimination going on
  745. # [21:56] <jgraham> Every time I ever tried to use it, it was because the problem was too hard. Firing up Mathematica only gave me two problems
  746. # [21:56] <Philip`> gsnedders: Why do you assume hate is non-zero?
  747. # [21:56] <hsivonen> As a freshman, I was able to afford a student license of mathematica
  748. # [21:56] <gsnedders> Philip`: Because hate is something.
  749. # [21:56] <gsnedders> Philip`: It has to not be zero
  750. # [21:57] <Philip`> gsnedders: Maybe it's just an arbitrarily-ordered enumeration of emotions, and hate happens to be assigned value 0
  751. # [21:58] <Philip`> Hixie: Please note that I attempt to maintain "never found any XML generating software that can't be tricked into outputting non-wellformed XML" status by ignoring any software that can't be tricked, and claiming that's because it's too simple (e.g. doesn't accept enough user input) or just not saying anything and pretending I never saw it
  752. # [21:59] <gsnedders> Philip`: :D
  753. # [21:59] <gsnedders> I maintain it by not trying, and assuming it is broken
  754. # [22:02] <Philip`> (Also I often cheat and just find general XSS holes, which can be used to make XML ill-formed but are equally problematic in non-XML pages)
  755. # [22:02] <Philip`> ((at least in the context of XHTML-outputting web pages))
  756. # [22:02] <hsivonen> Philip`: have you tried the new Validator.nu XML serializer yet?
  757. # [22:03] * Joins: GregHouston (n=ghouston@adsl-65-65-225-218.dsl.spfdmo.swbell.net)
  758. # [22:04] <Philip`> hsivonen: I haven't
  759. # [22:05] <gsnedders> Hmm. I'm stuck. Again.
  760. # [22:05] <gsnedders> I won't try asking here.
  761. # [22:05] <gsnedders> :P
  762. # [22:05] <jgraham> Hey
  763. # [22:05] <jgraham> I remember A-level-level maths
  764. # [22:07] <lbruno> gsnedders: do try :)
  765. # [22:07] <Philip`> hsivonen: (Is it meant to be unbreakable by an API user, rather than just an indirect web user?)
  766. # [22:08] <gsnedders> It's a question of how you prove the derivative of e^{3x}
  767. # [22:08] <gsnedders> (actually, it isn't, but I know what the derivative is, and I want to understand it :P)
  768. # [22:08] <GregHouston> Philip: Thanks for pointing out the namespace change with VML last night. It doesn't see to work if the VML is appended to the page though, and thus not with Excanvas or Moocanvas.
  769. # [22:09] <hsivonen> Philip`: it's not meant to be unbreakable by the seralizer Java API user
  770. # [22:09] <hsivonen> Philip`: it is meant to be unbreakable by the Validator.nu Web service API user
  771. # [22:10] <hsivonen> Philip`: the Java API leaves NCNameness and correct nesting to the application for perf reasons
  772. # [22:10] <hsivonen> but it does sanitize character data and attribute values
  773. # [22:11] <hsivonen> and it generates ns declaration for the crazy cases
  774. # [22:11] <lbruno> gsnedders: How (or why) d(e^{ex})/dx == 3 * e^{3x}, IIRC?
  775. # [22:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: d(e^{3x})/dx == 3 * e^{3x}
  776. # [22:12] <gsnedders> (not e^{ex})
  777. # [22:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yeah. What's the question? How do you prove it?
  778. # [22:13] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yeah (it's my question, the question in the exercise is just what it is)
  779. # [22:13] <hsivonen> Philip`: and cutting the output stream by provoking Out Of Memory in a stream write operation does not count
  780. # [22:14] <jgraham> df/dx = lim dx->0 (f(x+dx) - f(x))/dx
  781. # [22:15] <jgraham> (exp(a(x+dx)) - exp(ax))/dx = exp(ax) * (exp(a dx) - 1) / dx
  782. # [22:15] <gsnedders> Ya
  783. # [22:16] <jgraham> = exp(ax)((1+a*dx) - 1)/dx in lim dx->0
  784. # [22:16] <jgraham> = a*exp(ax)
  785. # [22:16] <jgraham> But that's kind of cheating because you need to use the taylor series approximation for exp which is based on the derivative
  786. # [22:17] <Philip`> GregHouston: Have you tested whether it works if you use document.namespaces.add(prefix, uri, behaviour) to bind the behaviour?
  787. # [22:17] <gsnedders> jgraham: I can't really read maths written in text. Meh. :P
  788. # [22:18] <Philip`> GregHouston: Actually, you probably mean it doesn't work if the VML content itself is written dynamically, in which case that probably won't affect anything
  789. # [22:18] <GregHouston> Yeah, that is what I meant.
  790. # [22:19] * jgraham guesses you could define exp by its taylor series approximation and so circumvent the problem
  791. # [22:20] <gsnedders> jgraham: I don't quite see where the final = a*exp(ax) comes from
  792. # [22:20] * gsnedders is probably being silly
  793. # [22:20] * lbruno wrote e^{ex} by mistaek. sorry
  794. # [22:21] <GregHouston> Philip: in the ticket it says that tagUrn is not set when adding the VML dynamically. I don't know what tagUrn is. Do you know if it is something that can be manually set?
  795. # [22:21] <jgraham> gsnedders: (1+a dx)-1 = a dx ; a dx/dx = a
  796. # [22:21] <jgraham> gsnedders: It turns out that mathematicians are quite anal http://planetmath.org/encyclopedia/DerivativeOfExponentialFunction.html
  797. # [22:22] <gsnedders> jgraham: Is that unexpected?
  798. # [22:22] <gsnedders> :)
  799. # [22:22] <jgraham> gsnedders: Not at all :)
  800. # [22:23] * jgraham should go home
  801. # [22:23] <lbruno> I think I prefer the Wikipedia version. You are not asking why d(e^x)/dx == e^x
  802. # [22:23] <jgraham> Wikipedia version?
  803. # [22:24] <lbruno> the chain rule
  804. # [22:25] <lbruno> i'm not making any sense
  805. # [22:25] <gsnedders> lbruno: Link?
  806. # [22:25] <lbruno> just before this section: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_function#Formal_definition
  807. # [22:26] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.155)
  808. # [22:26] <lbruno> I think this is what you're asking about; if not... flames gladly accepted :)
  809. # [22:27] <lbruno> s/just before/just above/
  810. # [22:27] <gsnedders> lbruno: just before is fine
  811. # [22:27] <gsnedders> (so is above)
  812. # [22:28] <lbruno> thanks
  813. # [22:28] <Philip`> GregHouston: I don't know, but I would assume it can't be set, in the same way that tagName can't be set
  814. # [22:29] * lbruno is always doubting if the idioms he uses are correct
  815. # [22:29] * lbruno finds writing about himself in the 3rd person quite peculiar
  816. # [22:30] <jgraham> lbruno: Using the chain rule is cheating unless you prove the chain rule :)
  817. # [22:30] * jgraham has no idea how to do that
  818. # [22:31] <lbruno> jgraham: true, that was on my mind as well!
  819. # [22:31] <lbruno> but you've got to believe in something
  820. # [22:32] <lbruno> I mean, in some axiom
  821. # [22:32] <lbruno> this one looks useful
  822. # [22:33] <gsnedders> I am now sure I'm really being stupid
  823. # [22:33] * Philip` would assume you prove the chain rule by calculating limits, but you probably don't want to prove that calculating limits is valid
  824. # [22:34] <gsnedders> Can \frac{2x^2+6x}{4x^2+12x-9} be simplified?
  825. # [22:40] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@163.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
  826. # [22:41] <Philip`> Probably not, but you should factorise it first
  827. # [22:42] <gsnedders> How?
  828. # [22:42] <lbruno> by finding zeros, I think, and expressing it as (x-<zero1>)(x-<zero2>).
  829. # [22:43] <lbruno> .oO(is that what factorise meant?)
  830. # [22:45] <Philip`> lbruno: That's what I mean
  831. # [22:46] <lbruno> I'm having some seriously silly difficulty to use the Magic Formula on the bottom part of the fraction.
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  834. # [22:57] <lbruno> this is silly, I be able to do this from muscle memory by now. I sure flunked calculus enough times
  835. # [22:57] <lbruno> I cheated
  836. # [22:57] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  837. # [22:58] <lbruno> I found an online graphing calculator, plotted both parts of the fraction, and saw they didn't share common zeros.
  838. # [22:59] <lbruno> so I think the fraction can't be simplified that way.
  839. # [22:59] <hsivonen> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=436083
  840. # [23:03] * lbruno guesses it's enough OT for now
  841. # [23:07] <gsnedders> lbruno: you want to be on-topic? why?
  842. # [23:08] <lbruno> just that I find a bit peculiar thinking about calculus on #whatwg
  843. # [23:08] <lbruno> not complaining, though
  844. # [23:08] <lbruno> I sure need the exercise
  845. # [23:08] <gsnedders> We discuss everything here :P
  846. # [23:08] <lbruno> mathematical and physical :-)
  847. # [23:08] <gsnedders> Oh, and other things
  848. # [23:09] <lbruno> oy, it's IRC
  849. # [23:09] * gsnedders yawns
  850. # [23:09] * gsnedders is too tired to do this
  851. # [23:09] <lbruno> OT is bound to happen anyway
  852. # [23:09] <lbruno> it /is/ getting rather late to do math calisthenics
  853. # [23:10] <lbruno> gsnedders: why the interest in math?
  854. # [23:10] <gsnedders> lbruno: I have homework to do :P
  855. # [23:11] <gsnedders> lbruno: For last Thursday, no less
  856. # [23:12] <lbruno> can't say I envy you. homework always seemed to deflate my interest in math
  857. # [23:13] <gsnedders> lbruno: Love does not envy.
  858. # [23:13] <lbruno> ?
  859. # [23:13] * gsnedders shrugs
  860. # [23:13] * lbruno felt a bit of a draft overhead
  861. # [23:13] * gsnedders is feeling vaguely Biblical
  862. # [23:14] <gsnedders> (1 Corinthians 13)
  863. # [23:14] <lbruno> ah.
  864. # [23:14] <lbruno> never did get to that part of the bible
  865. # [23:14] <gsnedders> Somewhere between 4 and 7, IIRC
  866. # [23:14] * gsnedders has just read random bits
  867. # [23:15] <gsnedders> Quite a lot of random bits, but compared with the size of the Bible, next to nothing
  868. # [23:15] <lbruno> true, you can spend a lot of time around that book and read just an insignificant part
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  876. # [23:56] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  877. # Session Close: Sun Sep 14 00:00:00 2008

The end :)