/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-09-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Sep 14 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  15. # [01:34] <Lachy> Hixie, yt?
  16. # [01:37] <Lachy> Hixie, in your live dom viewer script, within the update() function, what's the purpose of using a timeout for this: setTimeout(updateDOM, 100); instead of just calling updateDOM(); directly?
  17. # [01:41] <Philip`> Is that the one that prevents the thing updating at more than 10Hz, to avoid thrashing your CPU if you're typing fast?
  18. # [01:42] <Lachy> no, there's a timeout within the updateInput() function for that purpose
  19. # [01:45] <Lachy> this timeout gets called after the parsing has already been done, and updateDOM() just updates the various outputs, such as the innerHTML and DOM tree views
  20. # [01:46] <Lachy> so it seems there is little to gain from using a timeout here, at least as far as I can tell
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  28. # [03:37] <Lachy> hsivonen, yt?
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  32. # [03:47] <Lachy> hsivonen, nevermind
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  34. # [04:03] <Lachy> I got my local copy of the HTML Tools beta working with both browser based and HTML5 based parsing using hsivonen's parser. Now I just need to implement the UI for switching between them
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  67. # [10:53] <Hixie> Lachy: so that any timeouts in onload handlers in the subdocument get processed before showing the dom
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  69. # [11:09] * hsivonen fishes the draft TAG finding on versioning did more to highlight how CSS has it right
  70. # [11:09] <hsivonen> s/fishes/wishes/
  71. # [11:10] <hsivonen> weird typos
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  74. # [11:45] <Hixie> hsivonen: unfortunately people on the tag like versioning
  75. # [11:46] <Hixie> hsivonen: so they are unlikely to pay too much attention to what are the actual success stories (css, dom) and failures (js, html, xml)
  76. # [11:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think I'll take the time to comment anyway
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  78. # [12:02] <hsivonen> Comparing CSS and HTML, the big problem with distibuted extensibility in HTML is that instead of an element having a set of properties/attributes on equal footing, one property--the element name--is special
  79. # [12:03] <hsivonen> so an element can't be -webkit-canvas, -moz-canvas, -o-canvasw -ms-canvas and canvas at the same time
  80. # [12:04] <hsivonen> also,the canvasness is less optional than rounded corners
  81. # [12:11] <hsivonen> I wonder how thing would be different if the element name was just another boolean attribute
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  83. # [12:11] <hsivonen> so that <p> was syntactic sugar for <p="">
  84. # [12:16] <Lachy> hsivonen, there's a bug in livedom.validator.nu, it doesn't fire onload events
  85. # [12:16] <Lachy> http://livedom.validator.nu/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cscript%3E%0Afunction%20init()%20{%0A%20%20w(%22init%22)%3B%0A}%3C%2Fscript%3E%0A%3Cbody%20onload%3D%22init()%22%3E
  86. # [12:17] <hsivonen> Lachy: yeah, known bug
  87. # [12:17] <Lachy> ok
  88. # [12:18] <hsivonen> Lachy: I think putting time into full emulation like that wouldn't be justified by the reason why I made the parser work in GWT
  89. # [12:19] <hsivonen> Lachy: however, I want to expand it to cover other purposes, but I can't justify speding time on those things right now
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  94. # [13:38] <Lachy> hsivonen, I may have an easy way to implement it without too much trouble
  95. # [13:39] <Lachy> I also have a way to make it dynamically set quirks and standards mode
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  97. # [13:43] <Lachy> hmm, it may only work in Firefox. I'll investigate it more
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  110. # [15:27] <Lachy> damn, I hate working with IE8. It's painfully slow, incredibly unstable and throwing up bogus security warnings! :-(
  111. # [15:28] <Lachy> and every time it crashes, it clears my clipboard! wtf?
  112. # [15:32] <Lachy> hmm, it's not actually clearing the clipboard, but after it crashes, it has trouble pasting until I recopy.
  113. # [15:32] <Lachy> maybe that has something to do with running it in VMWare ThinApp inside VMWare Fusion
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  118. # [15:48] <Lachy> ok, I found and diagnosed a crash bug in IE8. Is anyone here able to file a bug? Here's a test case http://lachy.id.au/dev/2008/ie8b2-crash.html
  119. # [15:49] <Philip`> Can't you file a bug?
  120. # [15:51] <Lachy> no, I never got given the ability.
  121. # [15:51] <Lachy> but I need to fix the TC, I just realised the pass condition is wrong, and revealed another bug in Firefox
  122. # [15:52] <Philip`> I think I still have invitation codes, if you want one :-)
  123. # [15:53] <Lachy> sure
  124. # [15:54] <Lachy> this is annoying. Thanks to IE8 continually trying to reopen a crashed page, it gets into a continuous crash and relaunch cycle :-)
  125. # [16:05] <hsivonen> does bug filing access come with some bad NDA stuff?
  126. # [16:11] <Philip`> There's not a real one, like on paper with signatures or anything
  127. # [16:11] <Philip`> I don't remember whether there's a checkbox saying "I agree not to tell people about blah blah blah"
  128. # [16:12] <Philip`> (As far as I can tell, the aim is just to improve the signal-to-noise ratio, not to keep anything secret)
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  130. # [16:16] * jgraham resists the temptation to suggest whatwg@whatwg.org as the html5 non-accessibility list
  131. # [16:16] * hsivonen already resisted
  132. # [16:17] <takkaria> does that mean you're done with resisting and are now going to suggest that? :)
  133. # [16:18] <hsivonen> takkaria: no, I moved onto some more email
  134. # [16:18] <gsnedders> jgraham: According to my textbook, \frac{d\e^{3x}}{dx} = \e^{3x} * 3 per the chain rule — how does the power not decrease?
  135. # [16:18] * gsnedders doesn't get how you do it through the chain rule
  136. # [16:18] <Dashiva> jgraham: It's true, though
  137. # [16:19] <Dashiva> gsnedders: d(e^a) -> d(a) * e^a?
  138. # [16:19] <gsnedders> Dashiva: yeah
  139. # [16:20] <gsnedders> Dashiva: it says you do that per the chain rule, but that would involve decreasing the power by one
  140. # [16:20] <Dashiva> Why?
  141. # [16:21] <jcranmer> d [ f(g(x))]/dx = f'(g(x)) * g'(x).
  142. # [16:21] <gsnedders> Well, (x+y)^a would be d(x+y) * (x+y)^{a-1}
  143. # [16:21] <gsnedders> *a
  144. # [16:21] <jcranmer> since d[e^x]/dx = e^x
  145. # [16:22] <Dashiva> But you're not derivating with respect to e
  146. # [16:22] <gsnedders> True.
  147. # [16:22] * gsnedders headdesks
  148. # [16:22] <jcranmer> d[e^(3x)]/dx = f'(g(x)) * g'(x) = f(g(x))*g'(x)
  149. # [16:22] <Dashiva> It's more related to 3^x than x^3
  150. # [16:23] <Dashiva> And ln e = 1, so the log part cancels out
  151. # [16:23] <Dashiva> (or something, been some years since I did this)
  152. # [16:23] * gsnedders missed all the teaching on differentiating exponents and logarithms
  153. # [16:24] <Dashiva> That would explain things :)
  154. # [16:24] <gsnedders> :)
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  156. # [16:41] <hdh0> http://packages.ubuntu.com/intrepid/abrowser ubuntu debrands firefox
  157. # [16:44] <Philip`> hdh0: Am I right in understanding that the branded version of Firefox is still available, and abrowser is just an independent package for silly people to choose?
  158. # [16:46] <hdh0> yes, firefox-3.0-branding versus abrowser-3.0-branding
  159. # [16:54] <jgraham> Dashiva: Some people can't handle the truth
  160. # [16:57] <gsnedders> jgraham: What truth?
  161. # [16:58] <jgraham> gsnedders: see about 40 minutes ago
  162. # [16:58] <gsnedders> jgraham: Wrong. There is no spoon.
  163. # [17:04] <jgraham> gsnedders: Incidentailly "proving" the chain rule turns out to be not so hard, at least to my satisfaction
  164. # [17:14] <Philip`> "I'm Feeling Lucky" is reasonable text for a UI button, but it really doesn't seem appropriate for an API call (http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/images/imageclass.html#Image_im_feeling_lucky)
  165. # [17:15] * Philip` wonders why they didn't just call it auto_adjust or something
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  167. # [18:08] <gsnedders> Hmmmm.
  168. # [18:09] <gsnedders> \pi d-\frac{4000}{d^2} = 0 — solve for d.
  169. # [18:09] * gsnedders can't remember how to do that at all
  170. # [18:18] <Philip`> Multiply both sides by d^2?
  171. # [18:20] * gsnedders doesn't think this question should be so complex, and guesses his whole approach for solving it is wrong
  172. # [18:22] <Philip`> I'm not sure if I'm misreading or misunderstanding, but it seems trivial :-p
  173. # [18:24] <Dashiva> Is d a variable, or derivation?
  174. # [18:24] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Variable
  175. # [18:24] <Dashiva> looks like a regular quadratic
  176. # [18:25] <Philip`> Doesn't look like that to me
  177. # [18:25] <Philip`> Just multiply by d^2, add 4000, divide by pi, cube root, and maybe simplify a bit
  178. # [18:25] <gsnedders> I ought to start my physics homework, regardless of all this damned maths
  179. # [18:26] <Philip`> (Am I missing something obvious?)
  180. # [18:26] <gsnedders> Philip`: yes
  181. # [18:27] <gsnedders> Philip`: You end up with \frac{d^2+4000}{\pi} = d^3 when you say to take a cube root
  182. # [18:27] <Philip`> Are you thinking that 0*d^2 = d^2?
  183. # [18:28] <gsnedders> Philip`: yes :)
  184. # [18:28] <Dashiva> Oh, I thought it was pi/d, my misreading
  185. # [18:28] <Philip`> Hint: 0 != 1
  186. # [18:28] <gsnedders> Philip`: NO WAI
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  189. # [18:44] <Philip`> (Unless I'm mistaken, I guess 0!=1 is true in general for any abstract algebra with more than one element, given the usual definitions of 0 and 1, or something, so it's not just a fluke of integer arithmetic)
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  195. # [19:29] * hsivonen wonders if Gandi is going to keep their pricing after beta
  196. # [19:30] <hsivonen> they seem to have globally the best RAM per euro deal
  197. # [19:31] <hsivonen> Dreamhost PS is actually pretty bad in terms of RAM per euro despite the exchange rate of the dollar
  198. # [19:40] <Philip`> Dreamhost PS doesn't even seem to give you root access, so you can't have fun compiling your own kernels and so on
  199. # [19:41] <hsivonen> Philip`: I haven't had a need to compile the kernel on my server. In general, I don't like becoming an accidental sysadmin
  200. # [19:42] <Philip`> That sounds quite sensible :-)
  201. # [19:42] <hsivonen> I compared prices on Xen hosting, and this is what I learned
  202. # [19:42] * Philip` finds it odd that Dreamhost advertises a $5.95/month rate, which only applies if you pay for ten years in advance, which is almost as long as the HTML5 timetable - who's going to know they're still going to want a web server that far in the future?
  203. # [19:43] <hsivonen> my current host (kotisivut.com in Finland) has competitive RAM per euro pricing compared to anything except Gandi and Amazon EC2
  204. # [19:43] <hsivonen> Amazon EC2 does not scale down
  205. # [19:43] <hsivonen> Gandi isn't quite ready yet
  206. # [19:43] <hsivonen> Bytemark hasn't been able to keep up with Xen-based competition
  207. # [19:43] <hsivonen> Dreamhost PS is surprisingly uncompetitive
  208. # [19:44] <hsivonen> companies in the Netherlands and in the UK have insane prices compared to Finland, France and the US
  209. # [19:44] <hsivonen> so my current host seems very good compared to anything but Gandi
  210. # [19:44] <hsivonen> and Gandi seems almost too good to be true
  211. # [19:45] <hsivonen> anyway, I sent email to Gandi requesting a beta invite
  212. # [19:45] <Philip`> Have you found anything about differences in reliability and support?
  213. # [19:45] <hsivonen> no
  214. # [19:46] <hsivonen> but my current host doesn't say anything about CPU shares
  215. # [19:46] <hsivonen> while Amazon and Gandi say what you get
  216. # [19:47] <hsivonen> oh, and Amazon has totally different disk persistence characteristics
  217. # [19:47] * Philip` presumes CPU is harder to advertise since it can be very bursty, whereas RAM can't
  218. # [19:47] <hsivonen> I'm also surprised that googling for Xen hosting didn't turn up any Swedish or Estonian offerings
  219. # [19:48] <hsivonen> perhaps they don't do business in English or something
  220. # [19:55] <hsivonen> I want to see this area of business evolve into a model where someone own the datacenters and provides Xen paravirtualization and block storage, then someone else provides as open source on top of that App Engine -like automatic scaling so that the system is commodity open source and you can move to a different service provider
  221. # [19:56] <hsivonen> I think Amazon SimpleDB and App Engine are services that should be there, but using that high-level software shouldn't lock me in to a particular data center owner
  222. # [19:58] <hsivonen> I wonder if there are some savings in Amazon running SimpleDB themselves instead of a third party running CouchDB on top of Amazon EBS and selling that service
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  232. # [22:11] * om_out is now known as othermaciej
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  237. # [22:29] <hsivonen> it's been over a month since the last standards suck episode
  238. # [22:31] <Dashiva> Maybe they stopped sucking
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  242. # [22:37] <Lachy> I uploaded the latest copy of the HTML5 Tools http://html5.lachy.id.au/beta/ - this one has both HTML5 and browser parsing in it
  243. # [22:38] <Lachy> but there's a bug I cannot figure out with the switching between the 2 modes
  244. # [22:38] <annevk> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%22html%205%22 is also worth tracking
  245. # [22:42] * Quits: roc (n=chatzill@121-72-162-122.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  246. # [22:51] <hsivonen> lots of people tweeting about one article...
  247. # [22:52] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-155-4.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  248. # [22:54] <Philip`> Are they tweeting because of the article, or tweeting because of other people tweeting about the article?
  249. # [22:56] <annevk> hsivonen, yeah, the last few are indeed not that useful
  250. # [22:56] <annevk> and arguably before that not too much either, but still, it's rather easy to follow
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  260. # Session Close: Mon Sep 15 00:00:00 2008

The end :)