/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-09-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Sep 16 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Lachy> s/windows up/windows app/
  4. # [00:00] <jgraham> Which integration problems in particular?
  5. # [00:00] <Lachy> Expose doesn't work
  6. # [00:01] <Lachy> scrolling is bad
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  8. # [00:02] <jgraham> Yeah the scrolling is abysmal. Oh well, I guess that's a wine bug.
  9. # [00:03] <Lachy> when you drag tabs off the tab bar, it's quite slow and the transparency is buggered up
  10. # [00:04] <Lachy> if I didn't have Windows in a Virtual machine to run it in, it would be ok, but it's not really worth it, especially since I already have webkit available
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  24. # [00:31] <annevk> yay http://blog.whatwg.org/this-week-in-html-5-episode-5
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  26. # [00:39] <annevk> http://twitter.com/brunsvold/statuses/922129928
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  55. # [03:07] <Lachy> Firefox seems to have some strange behaviour with document.write in this case:
  56. # [03:08] <Lachy> <script>document.write("<\meta charset=UTF-8>");</script> doesn't detect has UTF-8, but
  57. # [03:08] <Lachy> <script>document.write("<\meta charset=UTF-8");</script>> does.
  58. # [03:09] <Hixie> good times
  59. # [03:10] <Lachy> AFAICT, according to the spec, both should be treated as UTF-8, since document.write just injects directly into the input stream
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  61. # [03:10] <Hixie> yup
  62. # [03:11] <Philip`> What about <script>unknownfunction("<\meta charset=UTF-8>");</script> ?
  63. # [03:11] <Philip`> Oh, wait, I read you the wrong way around
  64. # [03:12] <Philip`> Sounds like it only does the charset processing if the meta element is created through the normal non-document.write parser, or something?
  65. # [03:13] <Lachy> this works too: <script>document.write("<");</script>meta charset=UTF-8>
  66. # [03:14] <Lachy> looks like you can split it anywhere inside the string, and it only fails if the whole element is written with .write()
  67. # [03:16] <Lachy> my next challenge is to detect the current encoding the browser is using, using document.write() to output a conflicting encoding, trigger a reparse, and then detect and output a different one :-)
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  75. # [03:42] <Hixie> i added relative checkin activity to the issues graph
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  108. # [09:17] <Hixie> man, coming up with a good description of what a <label> element represents is non-trivial
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  113. # [09:52] <annevk> <label> represents a form control label
  114. # [10:00] <Hixie> So what is the form control in <label>Foo</label> ?
  115. # [10:01] <annevk> there's none because it's not associated with any?
  116. # [10:02] <Hixie> well then it's not a form control label
  117. # [10:02] <annevk> <label> represents a label that is to be associated with a form control
  118. # [10:03] <annevk> using either an explicit reference (for="") or indirect (nesting
  119. # [10:03] <annevk> )
  120. # [10:03] <Hixie> there you're using the name of the element to define the element, which is poor form since it reads badly (repetition) and doesn't help the author who didn't know what "label" meant in the first place :-)
  121. # [10:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: but the string "label" in the element name is an opaque string and the word "label" in the defining prose has a meaning in English
  122. # [10:06] <annevk> hmm, those authors can look at the examples
  123. # [10:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: surely it is ok to use the word "title" to define <title>
  124. # [10:06] <Hixie> you'll note that i also use another name
  125. # [10:06] <Hixie> er, another word
  126. # [10:06] <Hixie> namely "name"
  127. # [10:06] <Hixie> to define <title>
  128. # [10:06] <Hixie> similarly <caption> is defined using the word "title"
  129. # [10:07] <Hixie> and <label> using the word "caption"...
  130. # [10:07] <annevk> maybe that will confuse authors
  131. # [10:07] <Hixie> i doubt it. i posit that many authors who are looking up an element definition are looking it up because the name of the element wasn't clear to them, so i try to avoid reusing the name of the element in its definition.
  132. # [10:07] <annevk> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=whatwg :)
  133. # [10:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: if guessing from the name is ok, expect problems with <dialog> and <details>
  134. # [10:08] <Hixie> whether it's ok or not, people will do it
  135. # [10:09] <Hixie> thankfully for <dialog> and <details>, the problem is mitigated
  136. # [10:09] <Hixie> for <dialog> because of the content model, so that authors will usually come across it in the right usage
  137. # [10:09] <Hixie> and for <details> because if its default rendering
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  139. # [10:12] <Hixie> ah well
  140. # [10:12] <Hixie> <input> is next
  141. # [10:12] <Hixie> better go to bed!
  142. # [10:12] <Hixie> nn
  143. # [10:12] <annevk> :) nn
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  160. # [11:16] <hsivonen> it annoys me that tweets with tiny urls don't show where the URLs lead
  161. # [11:17] <annevk> search.twitter has an (expand) function
  162. # [11:21] <hsivonen> can I subscribe to an expanded version of any twitter feed?
  163. # [11:22] <annevk> dunno
  164. # [11:23] <jgraham> It would be nice if twitter allowed hyperlinks and didn't count the characters in the tag
  165. # [11:24] <jgraham> like <a href="http://example.com/my/long/url/">name</a> being 4 characters
  166. # [11:25] <Dashiva> I'm not sure SMS operators would allow you free bytes like that ;)
  167. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> on the plus side, twitter has helped to create a better market for URL-shortening services
  168. # [11:26] <Philip`> How about (revolutionary idea) not applying silly SMS limits to web-based entry?
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  170. # [11:26] <jgraham> Hmm I guess SMS would be a problem
  171. # [11:26] <Philip`> (Does anyone even use Twitter over SMS?)
  172. # [11:26] <annevk> I believe so
  173. # [11:26] <annevk> not me though
  174. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> twitter over SMS doesn't work any more
  175. # [11:26] <annevk> oh
  176. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> they shut it down temporarily
  177. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> many months ago
  178. # [11:26] <jgraham> MikeSmith: They still all obscufate the destination though
  179. # [11:26] <Lachy> MikeSmith, in all countries?
  180. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> temporarily
  181. # [11:26] <jgraham> by necessity
  182. # [11:27] <jgraham> (the URL shortening services)
  183. # [11:27] <Lachy> I thought twitter SMS was still working in Aus
  184. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> Lachy: don't work for me at least.. but I don't actually use SMS, I use the XMPP thing
  185. # [11:28] <Lachy> http://blog.twitter.com/2008/08/changes-for-some-sms-usersgood-and-bad.html
  186. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> but I thought they use they same backend for both
  187. # [11:28] <Lachy> says they stopped in some European places
  188. # [11:29] <annevk> anyway, placing a limit prevents people from writing essays
  189. # [11:29] <Lachy> I wish they would restore Jabber support, that's been gone for ages and I need it
  190. # [11:29] <annevk> counting < as four characters and such however is something they should probably stop with now
  191. # [11:30] * jgraham is still amazed by the use of the word need in relation to twitter
  192. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> Lachy: yeah, the Jabber interface is what I had been using, over a bitlbee gateway so that it just shows up in my IRC client
  193. # [11:31] <Philip`> Twitter wouldn't be Twitter if it didn't limit you to very short messages, but limiting URL length too is just a technical limitation that makes things awkward for readers and writers, rather than a useful social limitation that defines the service
  194. # [11:31] <Lachy> MikeSmith, does it still work for you?
  195. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> Lachy: nope
  196. # [11:31] <Lachy> what do you use now?
  197. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> for posting, I use Vim with a pipe to a python script that posts to both twitter and identi.ca
  198. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> for reading, I use the web
  199. # [11:32] <Lachy> I think the 140 character limit for twitter is the most annoying thing about twitter
  200. # [11:33] <Lachy> I understand why they have the limit for SMS reasons, but even for other clients, they restrict the output, which is totally unnecessary
  201. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> I agree with Philip` and annevk about the limit. Yeah, it's arbitrary but having some limit it fundamental to the whole idea of the service
  202. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> but they really should have a better way of handling URLs
  203. # [11:35] <Lachy> yeah, but 140 characters isn't enough. They should double it, and the whole SMS system needs to be upgraded to remove the 160 char limit
  204. # [11:35] <zcorpan_> they could use their own url-shortener when sending sms
  205. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> well, SMS sucks massively anyway and should just be abandoned and replaced by SMTP/MIME e-mail
  206. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> SMS is a technology that never should have existed to begin with
  207. # [11:36] <Philip`> Maybe the danger is that if they started allowing arbitrary-length URLs, they couldn't claim technical reasons for the 140-character limit, and everyone would moan about how restrictive it is, and the Twitter people couldn't say "that's because you don't understand what's good for you, and if we let you write much longer posts then readers would need a longer attention span and the service would collapse"
  208. # [11:37] <zcorpan_> or people would write their messages as URLs
  209. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> heh
  210. # [11:37] <Dashiva> Philip`: Alas, you might be onto something
  211. # [11:38] <Dashiva> I started becoming suspicious when I saw they say they count characters and not bytes
  212. # [11:38] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Would that be a problem if they didn't display the URL, only a short text link, and counted the length of the link text (not the URL) towards the 140 character limit?
  213. # [11:38] <Lachy> MikeSmith, no, SMS is a good thing. MMS, however, is stupid and should be abandoned everywhere
  214. # [11:38] <Philip`> You could still mouse-over the link to read the URL in your browser's status bar, but that's a bit rubbish
  215. # [11:38] <Philip`> so I assume people wouldn't do tht
  216. # [11:38] <Philip`> s//a/
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  221. # [12:01] <hsivonen> Lachy: MMS is like circuit-switched 3G video calls: people figure out pretty quickly that the same device does the "same" thing in the best-effort packet-switched mode much more cheaply and well enough
  222. # [12:02] * hsivonen tries to resist starting his broken record about Skype on EDGE/HSDPA
  223. # [12:04] <hsivonen> btw, how's the geolocation stuff going? when should I expect Fennec on N800+GPS to work as a real-time mapping client to Google Maps?
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  226. # [12:29] <othermaciej> wow I didn't notice that @headers thing when it first came up
  227. # [12:30] <annevk> hsivonen, there's a draft for geolocation but no Working Group to publish it
  228. # [12:30] <othermaciej> in case anyone is curious, I can state for the record that the Decision Policy was specifically designed with the intent of preventing technical decisions from being made in telecons
  229. # [12:30] <othermaciej> can't tell from latest email if the supposed Chair decision has been withdrawn or not, but it had better be
  230. # [12:31] <annevk> othermaciej, I believe some kind of further clarification was forthcoming after more study from the chairs
  231. # [12:32] <othermaciej> I hope the clarification includes "we're sorry for not following the Decision Policy in the charter and will do so in the future"
  232. # [12:33] * zcorpan_ wonders how <script defer> is specced in html5... http://www.stevesouders.com/blog/2008/09/11/delayed-script-execution-in-opera/
  233. # [12:33] <othermaciej> I believe HTML5 requires you to wait for the document to be loaded on <script defer>, but also includes <script async>
  234. # [12:34] <othermaciej> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#script
  235. # [12:34] <zcorpan_> how does document.write interact with those?
  236. # [12:36] <othermaciej> you mean if you document.write from a script loaded using one of those mechanisms?
  237. # [12:36] <othermaciej> or if you document.write such a script?
  238. # [12:36] <othermaciej> or if you document.write before or after starting the load, or what?
  239. # [12:36] <Philip`> "A feature of Opera’s “Delayed Script Execution” option is that, even though scripts are deferred, document.write still works correctly. Opera remembers the script’s location in the page and inserts the document.write output appropriately." - is that really true, or does it just reparse the document (and the initial scriptless parse is just to prefetch the scripts and images without blocking)?
  240. # [12:36] <zcorpan_> if you document.write from a script loaded using one of those mechanisms
  241. # [12:36] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  242. # [12:37] * zcorpan_ doesn't know exactly how dse works
  243. # [12:37] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  244. # [12:38] <Philip`> (I'm fairly sure I've heard that IE8 does speculative parsing past synchronous scripts, to prefetch the later included scripts)
  245. # [12:38] <Philip`> (but I have no idea which other browsers do similar things)
  246. # [12:38] <zcorpan_> like webkit
  247. # [12:39] <othermaciej> webkit does speculative preload
  248. # [12:39] <othermaciej> but we won't parse or display while blocked on actually running a script
  249. # [12:39] <othermaciej> doing so would cause bad results unless you reparse after running the script, I expect (which means you couldn't run any further scripts in the speculative rendering, even if inline)
  250. # [12:41] <othermaciej> anyway I think per html5 spec, <script async> document.write would write to a random place, and <script defer> document.write would clobber the document
  251. # [12:41] <othermaciej> ah, I see, that page even explains Delayed Script Execution
  252. # [12:42] <othermaciej> WebKit has sort of the equivalent of that feature too, "low-bandiwidth rendering"
  253. # [12:42] <othermaciej> it does a quick render w/o waiting for scripts or styles
  254. # [12:42] <othermaciej> and then reparses for real
  255. # [12:42] <othermaciej> but that's not even compiled in by default
  256. # [12:46] <annevk> document.write() would just do what it normally does
  257. # [12:46] <annevk> in html5
  258. # [12:46] <othermaciej> what do you mean "what it normally does"
  259. # [12:47] <othermaciej> <script async> is a newly invented feature so at least in that case there is no pre-existing "what it normally does"
  260. # [12:47] <annevk> it would be the same as executing a script at the point <script async> would be executed
  261. # [12:48] <annevk> (that is, document.write() does not suddenly throw or something because it runs from <script async> or <script defer>)
  262. # [12:48] <othermaciej> yeah, but from <script async> I think it would insert characters at a completely unpredictable place in the document
  263. # [12:49] <othermaciej> and thus should never be used from <script async>
  264. # [12:49] <annevk> oh, I agree
  265. # [12:49] <othermaciej> I think what (some) people want is for document.write to magically write after the point where the <script> tag occurs
  266. # [12:49] <othermaciej> not realizing that you can't consistently both do that and not block the parser, short of reparsing later
  267. # [12:50] <annevk> for the <script src> case you can do some magic
  268. # [12:51] <othermaciej> seems to me there is no way to get guaranteed identical results without reparsing the rest of the document after the script
  269. # [12:52] <othermaciej> (which is what it sounds like the Opera feature does, though maybe it optimizes some cases where it can prove reparsing is not necessary; I wouldn't know)
  270. # [12:52] <zcorpan_> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6057 is a dup of http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5979
  271. # [12:59] <zcorpan_> http://www.w3.org/mid/830059.6331.qm@web45703.mail.sp1.yahoo.com -- hmm, perhaps someone should point him to whatwg@whatwg.org
  272. # [12:59] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  275. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you have problems with Skype on HSDPA?
  276. # [13:13] <zcorpan_> Philip`: perhaps the spec splitter should put the forms stuff on its own page?
  277. # [13:16] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the problem I have is that I don't have an S60 app
  278. # [13:17] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: but my point is that Skype from N800 works across the packet data feature of my phone
  279. # [13:17] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so it's kinda pointless to try to sell the features as circuit switched to me
  280. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> ah
  281. # [13:18] <hsivonen> circuit switched is overrated
  282. # [13:22] <MikeSmith> most innovations in telecom technologies are overrated
  283. # [13:23] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  284. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> some are literally overrated
  285. # [13:24] <hsivonen> I've had a video call enabled phone for a year, and I haven't used it for video call even a single time
  286. # [13:26] <MikeSmith> I think the main use that video calls on mobiles is being put to is for interactive porn services
  287. # [13:26] <zcorpan_> Hixie: <body background> is supposed to be defined to contain an URL as far as reflecting attributes go, right?
  288. # [13:26] <zcorpan_> s/an/a/
  289. # [13:48] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
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  292. # [13:59] <Philip`> zcorpan_: That sounds sensible, and should be easy to do
  293. # [14:00] <Philip`> (but I'm busy with other things at the moment, so I won't fix it now)
  294. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> http://www.stevesouders.com/blog/2008/09/11/delayed-script-execution-in-opera/
  295. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> "If browsers supported an implementation of SCRIPT DEFER that behaved similar to Opera’s “Delayed Script Execution” feature, we’d all be better off."
  296. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: doesn't Webkit already have something like delayed script execution?
  297. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> I remember the Android announcement mentioning something that they had added
  298. # [14:14] * MikeSmith finds WTF_USE_LOW_BANDWIDTH_DISPLAY
  299. # [14:20] * MikeSmith finds https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2008-February/003341.html
  300. # [14:21] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: check the logs from 2h back :)
  301. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> "-DWTF_USE_LOW_BANDWIDTH_DISPLAY=1 is not so good. The loader in current builds is significantly faster and better at scheduling than those in other mobile browsers so I don't think we need hacks like this."
  302. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: OK
  303. # [14:27] <Lachy> I disagree with the conclusion of that delayed script execution article.
  304. # [14:27] <Lachy> If people would stop using document.write at all, we'd all be better off
  305. # [14:28] <Lachy> besides, innerHTML provides all the benefits of using string manipuation to populate the DOM, without the constraints of document.write
  306. # [14:29] <virtuelv> Lachy: expecting that is like pissing upwind
  307. # [14:29] <virtuelv> futile, and likely to cause a mess
  308. # [14:31] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g228024180.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406]")
  309. # [14:34] * Quits: Thezilch (n=fuz007@cpe-76-171-111-7.socal.res.rr.com) (Connection timed out)
  310. # [14:35] <Lachy> virtuelv, I'm not saying we should drop support for it, but encourage authors that want to improve script loading times to avoid it
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  313. # [15:00] <zcorpan_> hmm. should DOMParser and XMLSerializer be specced in dom core?
  314. # [15:02] <annevk> might make sense
  315. # [15:17] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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  321. # [15:22] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: yes, I believe I mentioned the low bandiwdth display, though I got the name wrong
  322. # [15:22] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: yeah, I just re-read through the channel logs on the webkit-dev e-mail thread
  323. # [15:23] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I think with our speculative pre-parsing and speed in general it is probably not so good even for mobile, but you can certainly get long delays before seeing anything on mobile WebKit browsers/devices that don't use it (like iPhone)
  324. # [15:25] * Quits: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@h123-176-107-050.catv01.catv-yokohama.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  325. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: what Alp says about displaying a throbber sounds like something worth considering
  326. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> [[
  327. # [15:26] <othermaciej> MobileSafari UI ideas are something I am not really free to discuss publicly but I'll take that comment under advisement
  328. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> I actually think a throbber or other load notification system is much
  329. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> more effective. When users see unstyled content (HTML without CSS), they
  330. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> immediately consider it a bug in the browser. Not good.
  331. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> ]]
  332. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> understood
  333. # [15:41] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote closed the connection)
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  335. # [15:43] <zcorpan_> <input type=password name=pw> <input type=password confirm=pw name=cpw>
  336. # [15:44] <hsivonen> http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2008/09/cross-platform-apis-to-be-in-t.html
  337. # [15:46] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I love when people who almost understand how technology works try to give advice to those actually creating the technology
  338. # [15:46] <hsivonen> does "WTF" in the WebKit define carry its usual meaning or is WTF a special technical term in WebKit?
  339. # [15:46] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@80.76.201.52)
  340. # [15:47] <othermaciej> WTF stands for Web Template Framework
  341. # [15:47] <othermaciej> has a sort of similar layer in our stack to NSPR for Mozilla
  342. # [15:47] <othermaciej> *similar role
  343. # [15:48] <hsivonen> ok
  344. # [15:48] <othermaciej> but among other things it is where platform conditional macros get defined
  345. # [15:48] <othermaciej> (however, if you read some of the code you may choose to take WTF in a somewhat different sense, since it does make very liberal use of C++ templates...)
  346. # [15:48] <wilhelm> That would be Widget Test Framework at the Opera HQ. (c;
  347. # [15:48] * Philip` assumes the choice of a term that acronymises to "WTF" was not purely accidental
  348. # [15:50] <virtuelv> probably not
  349. # [15:53] <othermaciej> I actually wanted to call it WebKit Template Library
  350. # [15:53] <othermaciej> but WTL was taken, by Microsoft
  351. # [16:03] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@62-50-197-9.client.stsn.net) ("The computer fell asleep")
  352. # [16:06] * Quits: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva)
  353. # [16:06] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-185-61.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  354. # [16:10] <hsivonen> so if CodeWeavers can get Chromium run on OS X with Wine, they have to have somme solution for multiple processes sharing a window
  355. # [16:10] * Quits: timblair (n=timblair@82.108.232.226)
  356. # [16:11] <Philip`> Does it run multiple OS X processes, or does Wine emulate Win32 processes within a single host process?
  357. # [16:20] <hsivonen> at least the wine initialization takes a long, long time
  358. # [16:20] <hsivonen> I wonder what it does during all that time
  359. # [16:23] <hsivonen> Philip`: there are multiple processes called 'wineloader'
  360. # [16:23] <Philip`> Perhaps it connects with rdesktop to an online Windows server that is executing Chrome
  361. # [16:23] <hsivonen> one process called CrossOver Chromium
  362. # [16:23] <hsivonen> and one wineserver
  363. # [16:25] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip75.unival.com)
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  367. # [16:32] <hsivonen> perhaps the CrossOver Chromium process runs an X server and the wineloader processes are X11 clients
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  374. # [17:03] <annevk> jgraham, so did you manage to get lxml running on DreamHost?
  375. # [17:05] * Joins: aaronlev_ (n=chatzill@e180227210.adsl.alicedsl.de)
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  381. # [17:20] * gsnedders wonders whether he can regen HTML 5 without dupe dfn errors after all the work
  382. # [17:20] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
  383. # [17:20] <gsnedders> Answer: yes.
  384. # [17:23] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-72ea5c60fc49eea3)
  385. # [17:26] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g228024180.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  386. # [17:28] <kangax> Does anyone know of a publicly available performance test suite for canvas?
  387. # [17:36] <Philip`> kangax: No
  388. # [17:37] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  389. # [17:37] * Philip` would be interested in one, but isn't aware of anything testing more than a couple of functions
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  393. # [17:44] <kangax> Philip`: I see
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  399. # [17:57] <annevk> Philip`, when you installed Python on philip.html5.org did it take a long time?
  400. # [17:57] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  401. # [17:59] <Philip`> annevk: I don't believe I've ever installed Python there
  402. # [17:59] <annevk> ah ok
  403. # [17:59] * annevk is trying it out now
  404. # [18:00] * annevk wants to build this Anolis Web service
  405. # [18:03] <hsivonen> hmm. the downside of gandi.net being French is that France doesn't have the most Internet business friendly laws around
  406. # [18:04] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-100-71-209.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  407. # [18:05] <Philip`> The advantage is that if you do something illegal and they want to arrest you, it's fine as long you don't go to France
  408. # [18:06] <hsivonen> France is one of the places I like to go
  409. # [18:06] <gsnedders> Philip`: Ever heard of extradition?
  410. # [18:09] <annevk> yay, python 2.5.1 installed
  411. # [18:10] <annevk> gsnedders, for lxml I also libxml and such right?
  412. # [18:11] <gsnedders> annevk: yeah
  413. # [18:13] <hsivonen> I think I might try putting html5.validator.nu in France while keeping most of my sites in Finland
  414. # [18:14] <hsivonen> but seriously, this virtualized data center thing needs to have better protections for tenant to make counterclaims of legality instead of someone just flipping off a switch
  415. # [18:15] <hsivonen> well, I suppose those better protections cost more money
  416. # [18:18] <annevk> christ, which version of libxml2 to pick?
  417. # [18:19] * gsnedders just used the version with his computer :P
  418. # [18:20] <gsnedders> annevk: How about the latest of both libxml2 and libxslt
  419. # [18:21] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  420. # [18:21] <annevk> yes, but platform etc.
  421. # [18:22] <annevk> anyway, I found some easy to follow guidelines
  422. # [18:24] <annevk> ok, so libxml and libxslt seem to be working out, great
  423. # [18:25] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  424. # [18:26] <annevk> heh, html5.org uses twice as much bandwidth as annevankesteren.nl
  425. # [18:35] <annevk> gettin this "xml toolchain" to run takes ages
  426. # [18:35] <annevk> s/gettin/getting/
  427. # [18:37] <Hixie> document.write() with <script async> doesn't insert data in the stream at random
  428. # [18:37] <Hixie> i went to extreme lengths to make it always work deterministically
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  430. # [18:53] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
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  433. # [19:05] <Philip`> annevk: If you had sensible (root) access and a sensible Linux distribution then lxml would be trivial to install :-)
  434. # [19:10] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@71.198.176.23)
  435. # [19:11] <annevk> well, easy_install works now, but now I get a bunch of errors like this "src/lxml/lxml.etree.c: In function `__pyx_pf_4lxml_5etree_14_ParserContext___dealloc__'"
  436. # [19:11] <annevk> when trying to easy_install lxml
  437. # [19:11] <annevk> and things like "src/lxml/lxml.etree.c:102485: error: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type"
  438. # [19:12] <annevk> import libxml2 and import libxslt both work
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  441. # [19:13] <Philip`> annevk: The "In function ..." line is not the error message - it's just before or after or something
  442. # [19:13] <Philip`> Probably the first actual error is the important one, and the rest might just be consequences of that
  443. # [19:14] <annevk> k, starts with "src/lxml/lxml.etree.c:150:31: libxml/schematron.h: No such file or directory"
  444. # [19:14] <Philip`> Ah, that sounds like the problem
  445. # [19:14] <Philip`> Where did you install libxml to?
  446. # [19:15] <annevk> to $HOME/opt
  447. # [19:15] <annevk> Python is in there too
  448. # [19:16] <annevk> I have this copy of libxml2: ftp://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/libxml2/2.6/libxml2-2.6.16.tar.gz
  449. # [19:16] <Philip`> You probably need to somehow tell easy_install (or whatever is doing the compiling of lxml) about that location, else it won't find the installed libraries
  450. # [19:17] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  451. # [19:20] <annevk> that's not the problem
  452. # [19:20] <annevk> my copy of libxml does not have schematron.h
  453. # [19:20] <Philip`> Oh, okay
  454. # [19:21] <annevk> at least, in opt/include/libxml2/libxml/ I can't find it
  455. # [19:22] <annevk> sigh
  456. # [19:22] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  457. # [19:30] <gsnedders> annevk: Did you install libxslt?
  458. # [19:31] <annevk> yes
  459. # [19:31] <annevk> this version of libxslt: ftp://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/libxslt/1.1/libxslt-1.1.12.tar.gz
  460. # [19:31] <annevk> maybe both are too old?
  461. # [19:32] * annevk copied the URIs from somewhere
  462. # [19:33] <Philip`> ftp://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/libxml2/2.6/libxml2-2.6.30.tar.bz2 has schematron.h
  463. # [19:34] <annevk> thanks, I was just trying to download a newer version
  464. # [19:34] * Philip` isn't sure why that's the latest version there, when he has 2.6.32 installed
  465. # [19:35] <Philip`> 2.6.16 is four years old
  466. # [19:35] <Philip`> so it seems reasonable for that to not work
  467. # [19:39] <annevk> still, it's a minor point release
  468. # [19:39] <annevk> oh well, lesson learned
  469. # [19:39] <gsnedders> Heck, 2.7.1 is katest
  470. # [19:39] <Philip`> I guess the policy might be that minor point releases can add API, they just can't remove or incompatibly change existing API
  471. # [19:40] <gsnedders> *latest
  472. # [19:40] <annevk> gsnedders, hmm, I hope mine is ok
  473. # [19:45] * Joins: aaronlev__ (n=chatzill@e180227210.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  474. # [19:45] * aaronlev__ is now known as aaronlev
  475. # [19:48] <annevk> painful how long all this takes
  476. # [19:51] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  477. # [19:52] * Joins: starjive (i=beos@213-66-217-32-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  478. # [20:00] <jgraham> annevk: The answer is "Yes I got it working"
  479. # [20:00] <jgraham> So it's not impossible :)
  480. # [20:01] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-6593a2afe71928ff)
  481. # [20:01] <annevk> hah
  482. # [20:02] <annevk> did it take long?
  483. # [20:02] <annevk> seems to take ages here
  484. # [20:02] <Hixie> anything interesting going on in the space of web standards?
  485. # [20:02] <jgraham> I seems to have used libxml2-2.6.30
  486. # [20:03] <jgraham> libxslt-1.1.22
  487. # [20:03] * Joins: roc (n=chatzill@121-72-177-254.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  488. # [20:04] <annevk> Hixie, apparently this one standard won't be finished until 2022, caused a lot commotion
  489. # [20:04] <gsnedders> Hixie: Umm, well, I haven't died yet.
  490. # [20:04] * jgraham has found that installing stuff on webfactional was relatively easy compared to dreamhost
  491. # [20:05] <gsnedders> What needs optimizing:
  492. # [20:05] <gsnedders> sub.py:88(stringSubstitutions)
  493. # [20:05] <gsnedders> xref.py:65(addReferences)
  494. # [20:05] <gsnedders> outliner.py:56(build)
  495. # [20:05] <gsnedders> xref.py:101(getTerm)
  496. # [20:05] <gsnedders> Everything else within Anolis is quick enough
  497. # [20:06] <jgraham> gsnedders: Whilst that is indubitably a good thing I question whether it is strictly "in the space of web standards"
  498. # [20:06] <gsnedders> jgraham: Well, this is a space of web standards, and I'm here.
  499. # [20:07] * Joins: tzafrir_laptop (n=tzafrir@local.xorcom.com)
  500. # [20:08] <annevk> I guess I'm having more success with lxml now, as it's simply taking a long time to do something rather than reporting an error
  501. # [20:08] <annevk> though maybe it will fail in the end anyways...
  502. # [20:08] * jgraham wishes he understood how latex worked so he didn't have to try random things untill one gave the right result
  503. # [20:08] <jgraham> s/latex/LaTeX/
  504. # [20:09] <annevk> jgraham, do you remember lxml just running for a while without giving feedback?
  505. # [20:09] <annevk> (while installing)
  506. # [20:10] <jgraham> annevk: Don't remember. It might well take a non-trivial amount of time to compile though
  507. # [20:10] <jgraham> Have you tried seeting what's running using top or something
  508. # [20:11] <annevk> win win win import lxml works!
  509. # [20:11] <annevk> (just took a while)
  510. # [20:12] <jgraham> Now you just need to get mercurial running so that you can hg clone gsnedder's repo
  511. # [20:12] <jgraham> :)
  512. # [20:12] <gsnedders> :P
  513. # [20:12] * annevk classifies that answer under "obvious fail"
  514. # [20:13] <annevk> s/answer/remark/ duh
  515. # [20:14] <annevk> jgraham, what is the best way to install html5lib ?
  516. # [20:14] <gsnedders> annevk: By doing a double backflip.
  517. # [20:15] <annevk> *sigh*
  518. # [20:15] * Joins: syp (n=syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch)
  519. # [20:16] * Parts: tzafrir_laptop (n=tzafrir@local.xorcom.com) ("Leaving")
  520. # [20:16] <annevk> say I want to install it under opt/ as well
  521. # [20:17] <jgraham> annevk: svn co http://code.google.com/html5lib/whatver and then python setup.py install in the html5lib directory
  522. # [20:17] * Quits: syp_ (n=syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch) ("leaving")
  523. # [20:18] <annevk> jgraham, it will automatically move it around to the correct place?
  524. # [20:18] * annevk never had an installed copy of html5lib
  525. # [20:19] * annevk assumes it will be ok
  526. # [20:19] <jgraham> annevk: No. If you do python setup.py install --prefix=~ (might be --home) then it will put it somewhere in your home directory that is also on your sys.path. If you really want to install it somewhere different, look at the options under python setup.py --help
  527. # [20:19] <jgraham> as in it might be python setup.py --home=~
  528. # [20:20] <jgraham> but prefix sounds more likely
  529. # [20:20] <jgraham> (it is likely to be put under ~/lib/python2.5/)
  530. # [20:23] <annevk> python runtests.py within anolis works
  531. # [20:23] <annevk> now I need some example Anolis code
  532. # [20:24] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.119.110.142)
  533. # [20:25] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  534. # [20:26] * annevk finds out that part of Anolis has no documentation
  535. # [20:28] <annevk> gsnedders, in generator.py.process(), is **kwargs the commandline arguments you document elsewhere or something?
  536. # [20:30] * Joins: met_ (n=Hassman@rb5dr234.net.upc.cz)
  537. # [20:31] <met_> figure microformat aka html5 figure http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2008-September/001807.html
  538. # [20:33] <annevk> it would be better to just use HTML5...
  539. # [20:33] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  540. # [20:33] <annevk> but then browsers fail on <legend> :/
  541. # [20:34] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  542. # [20:34] <annevk> gsnedders, if you can give me some sample code to work with that'd be great
  543. # [20:34] * annevk off to buy some food
  544. # [20:38] <met_> annevk, for todays use it's ok, I wander why mf community doesn't prepare steps for future, like legend here, time instead of abbr there etc.
  545. # [20:39] * jgraham still thinks that <legend> might be a deal breaker for <figure>
  546. # [20:40] <hsivonen> what's the problem that the figure microformat tries to solve?
  547. # [20:40] <hsivonen> that is, what's blocking prospective users from upgrading to HTML5?
  548. # [20:40] <met_> hsivonen, most probably the same problem as figure in HTML5
  549. # [20:42] <gsnedders> annevk: See http://hg.gsnedders.com/anolis/file/cf4770338aa0/anolis and the dest arguments in the parser.add_option() calls
  550. # [20:43] <met_> hsivonen, users are ok, they can upgrade, but tools designed today shoud be ready for HTML5 already (tools can have long life), I wonder why microformats doesnt' say "this html5 syntax is 100% compatible with our syntax", so the tools can be ready for it
  551. # [20:43] <Hixie> jgraham: yeah, maybe. for <details>, too. i just really really don't want to have to introduce a 12th or 15th or whatever it is element for marking up headers/titles/captions/names
  552. # [20:44] <jgraham> Hixie: I know, but practicallity beats purity. There's no point in introducing the elements if no one can use them afterall.
  553. # [20:44] <hsivonen> met_: I also don't understand the motivation of asking for HTML4+ARIA validation
  554. # [20:45] <hsivonen> (a recent feature request for Validator.nu)
  555. # [20:45] <Hixie> jgraham: yeah. hopefully parsers can be fixed.
  556. # [20:47] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@e180227210.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406]")
  557. # [20:47] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@e180227210.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  558. # [20:49] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Connection timed out)
  559. # [20:50] <jgraham> Hixie: The problem with relying on fixing parsers is that the reptillian part of browser dev's brains which deals with their natural survival instincts tells them that changing parsers can break web compat. and so is bad ;)
  560. # [20:50] <gsnedders> hdh: http://hg.gsnedders.com/anolis/rev/bf926a2e75ab
  561. # [20:51] <jgraham> Hence parsers seem to have longer regeneration cycles than many aspects of browser code
  562. # [20:51] <gsnedders> hdh: (I think it was you who I said to bully me to do that if I forgot to, but you didn't so it took a while)
  563. # [20:51] <Hixie> jgraham: we're already relying on them changing the parser anyway
  564. # [20:51] <Hixie> jgraham: i'm happy to delay <figure> and <details> deployment until after the parser is deployed
  565. # [20:51] <Hixie> jgraham: they're not critical features
  566. # [20:54] <jgraham> Maybe not critical but <figure> is certianly something that various people have said to me "oh I've wanted that for a long time", so it is a bit annoying to have to go "oh well actually it won't work for the forseeable future because it's not backwards compatible"
  567. # [20:54] <Hixie> it's backwards compatible if people are willing to do tricks like have <span> elements around the place
  568. # [20:54] <jgraham> Especially if you've just been talking about how HTML 5 tries to preserve backwards compatibility
  569. # [20:55] * gsnedders gives Hixie a hypocrite sticker
  570. # [20:55] <Hixie> backwards compatibility doesn't mean everything Just Works
  571. # [20:55] <hdh> gsnedders: it was me; thanks
  572. # [20:55] <gsnedders> then I run.
  573. # [20:55] <Hixie> i mean it's like saying the SQL database stuff "isn't backwards compatible"
  574. # [20:55] <gsnedders> It so is!
  575. # [20:56] <jgraham> Yeah, but stuff that is really new features is easier to explain than stuff that is just markup
  576. # [20:56] <Hixie> *shrug*
  577. # [20:57] <jgraham> Also, how can you sprinkle span to get FF to have the <legend> element in the DOM but no <fieldset>?
  578. # [20:57] <Hixie> <datalist> is no less of a new feature than <details>
  579. # [20:57] <Hixie> FF's <fieldset> thing is a bug and should be fixed regardless of any of this.
  580. # [20:58] <gsnedders> Oh, and can I bully anyone here into giving me comments on my personal statement at short notice?
  581. # [21:00] <jgraham> gsnedders: I can look this evening. By which I mean "in an hour or two"
  582. # [21:00] <gsnedders> jgraham: In an hour or two will do seeming I need to finish it first.
  583. # [21:00] <gsnedders> (Really, any time in the next 26 hours will do)
  584. # [21:02] <jgraham> gsnedders: OK, I can read it then
  585. # [21:02] <Hixie> ok. lunch time. then i'll find something else to delay working on <input>.
  586. # [21:02] <annevk> gsnedders, yeah, that sort of helps, but not really
  587. # [21:04] <gsnedders> annevk: What else do you want?
  588. # [21:05] <annevk> I would like a python API rather than a commandline API
  589. # [21:05] <gsnedders> It's basically the same
  590. # [21:06] <annevk> ok
  591. # [21:07] <gsnedders> annevk: See generator.fromFile and .fromToFile()
  592. # [21:07] <gsnedders> annevk: They take as keyword args those things
  593. # [21:08] <annevk> and how do I specify "those things" from Python?
  594. # [21:08] <gsnedders> generator.fromFile(StringIO(), lxml_html=True)
  595. # [21:09] <annevk> ok, so lxml_html=True, omit_optional_tags=False, ...
  596. # [21:09] <annevk> ?
  597. # [21:09] <gsnedders> yeah
  598. # [21:09] <gsnedders> w3c_compat_xref_a_placement=True
  599. # [21:09] <gsnedders> (HTML 5 needs that)
  600. # [21:12] <annevk> my generator file does not include fromFile btw
  601. # [21:13] <gsnedders> annevk: Get a later copy
  602. # [21:13] <gsnedders> :P
  603. # [21:13] <annevk> grmbl
  604. # [21:14] <gsnedders> http://hg.gsnedders.com/anolis/archive/tip.zip — or install mercurial and clone the repo
  605. # [21:15] * Philip` installed Mercurial on Dreamhost, and it seemed to work alright
  606. # [21:15] <Philip`> (but it's easier to not do so)
  607. # [21:15] * jgraham seems to have mercurial on DH also
  608. # [21:15] * gsnedders has it on DH too
  609. # [21:15] <jgraham> I think I may have just tried my luck with easy_install mercurial
  610. # [21:19] <annevk> alright, that's slightly better
  611. # [21:20] <annevk> so I use fromFile and serialize the output as document which is then rendered in the browser
  612. # [21:20] <annevk> so to prevent xss it should be run on a separate domain
  613. # [21:20] <gsnedders> annevk: No, that doesn't help
  614. # [21:21] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@rb5dr234.net.upc.cz) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  615. # [21:21] <annevk> what doesn't help?
  616. # [21:21] * Joins: met_ (n=Hassman@rb5dr234.net.upc.cz)
  617. # [21:21] <gsnedders> annevk: They can put a URL in it that processes another doc in the spec gen
  618. # [21:21] <gsnedders> Actually, if you use POST, that's irrelevant
  619. # [21:21] <gsnedders> Hixie: But didn't you want GET?
  620. # [21:21] <Philip`> To prevent XSS, send it as text/plain with content-type-options:nosniff
  621. # [21:22] <gsnedders> How about application/octet+stream?
  622. # [21:22] <annevk> why not just use a separate domain?
  623. # [21:22] <annevk> i want to see the output the tool generates so i just need to hit refresh
  624. # [21:22] <gsnedders> annevk: Using POST or GET?
  625. # [21:22] <annevk> I don't see how that matters
  626. # [21:23] <gsnedders> annevk: If you use GET, I can use a URL that processes another document within it
  627. # [21:23] <annevk> that's not a XSS attack afaict
  628. # [21:24] <annevk> though it will probably use POST, as that makes the most sense for this
  629. # [21:25] <annevk> actually, ?url=http://www... would be a useful service too
  630. # [21:25] <annevk> guess both will be done
  631. # [21:26] <Hixie> gsnedders: i don't mind, i can do post from wget too iirc
  632. # [21:28] <Hixie> hsivonen: uri to "gez's table"?
  633. # [21:31] <gsnedders> Hixie: Was it you trying to run Anolis on Py2.3?
  634. # [21:31] <Hixie> yes
  635. # [21:31] <gsnedders> Hixie: Can you get http://hg.gsnedders.com/anolis/archive/tip.tar.bz2 and try again?
  636. # [21:32] <Hixie> i was just going to wait for anne or someone to set up a web service instead :-)
  637. # [21:32] <gsnedders> Hixie: I know, but I just want to see if it works on Py2.3 now :)
  638. # [21:33] <Hixie> give me a .sh file to run and i'll try it and give you the output
  639. # [21:33] <Hixie> include things like wget or whatever i need to fetch the file
  640. # [21:33] <gsnedders> Hixie: Just running python runtests.py
  641. # [21:33] <gsnedders> *run
  642. # [21:33] <gsnedders> :P
  643. # [21:34] <Hixie> wget http://hg.gsnedders.com/anolis/archive/tip.tar.bz2
  644. # [21:34] <Hixie> tar jxvf tip.tar.bz2
  645. # [21:34] <gsnedders> ah, you mean including getting it
  646. # [21:35] <Hixie> python anolis-eb6d50aa26f5/runtests.py
  647. # [21:35] <Hixie> Traceback (most recent call last):
  648. # [21:35] <Hixie> File "anolis-eb6d50aa26f5/runtests.py", line 27, in ?
  649. # [21:35] <Hixie> from anolislib import generator
  650. # [21:35] <Hixie> File "/home/.hardangervidda/ianh/temp/anolis/anolis-eb6d50aa26f5/anolislib/__init__.py", line 1, in ?
  651. # [21:35] <Hixie> from generator import *
  652. # [21:35] <Hixie> File "/home/.hardangervidda/ianh/temp/anolis/anolis-eb6d50aa26f5/anolislib/generator.py", line 22, in ?
  653. # [21:35] <Hixie> import html5lib
  654. # [21:35] <Hixie> ImportError: No module named html5lib
  655. # [21:35] <gsnedders> Hixie: Heh. At least I don't get a syntax error :)
  656. # [21:36] <jgraham> gsnedders: Trying to make it work on python 2.3 is a bad idea. Python 2.3 is missing some really nice things
  657. # [21:36] <annevk> either tonight or tomorrow i'll try to set it up
  658. # [21:36] <gsnedders> jgraham: reversed() was the only real thing missing
  659. # [21:36] <annevk> have to go now
  660. # [21:36] <Hixie> there's no rush
  661. # [21:36] <Hixie> i' deep in wf2 territory right now
  662. # [21:36] * gsnedders is listening to Force Ten by Rush from Hold Your Fire
  663. # [21:36] <gsnedders> obviously there is.
  664. # [21:36] <Hixie> and don't want to do the switchover in the middle of the wf2 work
  665. # [21:36] <gsnedders> (bad joke, I know)
  666. # [21:37] <jgraham> gsnedders: You never use generators, or the codecs package or anything?
  667. # [21:37] <gsnedders> jgraham: Generators don't exist at all in 2.3?
  668. # [21:37] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Labc8.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  669. # [21:37] <jgraham> gsnedders: Not afaik
  670. # [21:38] <gsnedders> jgraham: They seem to, just not generator expressions. I removed the only one of those, as it made absolutely no difference to perf.
  671. # [21:38] <jgraham> Oh they were introduced in 2.3
  672. # [21:39] * Quits: sbublava (n=stephan@77.119.110.142)
  673. # [21:39] <jgraham> Pre-2.3 only has a Python implementation of sets so html5lib may be significantly slower
  674. # [21:40] <Hixie> html5lib is too slow anyway :-)
  675. # [21:40] * jgraham blames python
  676. # [21:41] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-d988a2df66c9084a)
  677. # [21:41] <jgraham> Although clearly it is mainly my fault :)
  678. # [21:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: You chose the wrong language!
  679. # [21:41] <Hixie> pure python is just a really slow environment
  680. # [21:44] <jgraham> I wonder if mainstream python will get some of the dynamic speedup goodness that js is receiving
  681. # [21:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://juicystudio.com/wcag/tables/complexdatatable.html
  682. # [21:47] <Hixie> i already commented on that table and don't believe that nested headers would help it
  683. # [21:47] <Hixie> see the bugzilla bug
  684. # [21:48] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5822
  685. # [21:49] <jgraham> That table has been so overplayed.
  686. # [21:49] <jgraham> If there is one lesson we take from it, it should be taht requiring headers+id for such a simple layout reveals fundamental deisgn flaws
  687. # [21:50] * gsnedders wonders if there was anything else that he'd been bullied into putting into Anolis 1.0
  688. # [21:51] <jgraham> So, if we think it requires headers+id we would be better off fixing the fundamental problems rather than papering over the cracks
  689. # [21:52] <Hixie> gsnedders: cross-document cross-references? *puppy eyes*
  690. # [21:52] <gsnedders> Hixie: Even with puppy eyes, no.
  691. # [21:52] <Hixie> bummer
  692. # [21:52] <Hixie> see if i put it a <gsnedders> element now! :-P
  693. # [21:52] <Hixie> put in, even
  694. # [21:52] <gsnedders> :P
  695. # [21:53] <gsnedders> Hixie: What does that do? Make its content a hopeless romantic?
  696. # [21:53] <Hixie> it does nothing!
  697. # [21:53] <Hixie> :-P
  698. # [21:53] <Hixie> certainly doesn't add cross-references cross-document, anyway :-P
  699. # [21:53] <gsnedders> That's less than the sarcasm end tag does!
  700. # [21:53] <gsnedders> That at least makes you take a deep breath!
  701. # [21:54] <Hixie> hm on another note i guess i should get plane tickets to TPAC tonight
  702. # [21:54] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.121.192) (Remote closed the connection)
  703. # [21:54] * Joins: cmlenz (n=cmlenz@dslb-084-058-046-194.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  704. # [21:55] <cmlenz> hey folks
  705. # [21:55] <gsnedders> I ought to decide what I'm doing for the weekend before
  706. # [21:56] <gsnedders> I need to decide whether to stay with my uncle for a few more days, or whether to come down to the south coast
  707. # [21:56] <cmlenz> just read http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/09/02/ie8-security-part-vi-beta-2-update.aspx and am wondering whether the "Restricting document.domain" example is what was intended by the spec
  708. # [21:56] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@rb5dr234.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  709. # [21:56] <cmlenz> it's pretty weird that you can't reset document.domain to the original value
  710. # [21:57] <cmlenz> (note: I did not read through the comments, so I may have missed something :P )
  711. # [21:58] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#domain
  712. # [21:58] <hsivonen> jgraham: I don't think it should require headers/id. but visually, it does have chained header cells
  713. # [21:59] <Hixie> visually that table is a mess
  714. # [21:59] <cmlenz> Hixie: read that, and in makes sense in general, but not in that specific example ;)
  715. # [21:59] <cmlenz> s/in/it
  716. # [21:59] <Hixie> cmlenz: what's the specific example that doesn't make sense?
  717. # [21:59] <Hixie> and what doesn't make sense about it?
  718. # [21:59] <jgraham> hsivonen: I agree
  719. # [22:00] <jgraham> I think chained headers should work
  720. # [22:00] <cmlenz> the one in the IE blog post
  721. # [22:00] <cmlenz> document.domain = "app1.example.com"; document.domain = "example.com"; document.domain = "app1.example.com";
  722. # [22:00] <cmlenz> last one throws exception
  723. # [22:00] <Hixie> right
  724. # [22:00] <Hixie> is the spec unclear about this?
  725. # [22:00] <jgraham> At leat I think that untill someone shows me research that they are more confusing to end users than less information would be
  726. # [22:01] <Hixie> jgraham: that's backwards
  727. # [22:01] <Hixie> jgraham: i don't add features based on the absence of evidence that the features are harmful
  728. # [22:01] <Hixie> jgraham: i add them based on evidence that they are helpful
  729. # [22:01] <cmlenz> no, that follows the spec, I'm just saying it makes no sense that you can't set the property value back to the original, more restrictive, value
  730. # [22:01] <Hixie> cmlenz: aah
  731. # [22:01] * Hixie points cmlenz to the /topic :-)
  732. # [22:02] <cmlenz> hmm :P
  733. # [22:02] <Hixie> that's just how most browsers behave
  734. # [22:02] <Hixie> and there are some half-sensible security reasons for it
  735. # [22:02] <gsnedders> (but only half)
  736. # [22:02] <Hixie> like, you wouldn't want to go user1.example.com -> example.com -> user2.example.com
  737. # [22:03] <cmlenz> sure, that rule is 100% needed
  738. # [22:03] <cmlenz> oh well, no big deal anyway, I guess
  739. # [22:04] * gsnedders screams, "MY BROWSER! LET ME DECIDE HOW BIG I WANT THE WINDOW!"
  740. # [22:04] <cmlenz> just seems like something I'd be all WTF about when encountering it
  741. # [22:04] <gsnedders> cmlenz: Much of HTML is like that.
  742. # [22:04] <cmlenz> but then again, I probably never will
  743. # [22:05] <hsivonen> jgraham: what would you offer to authors who want to support legacy agents?
  744. # [22:05] * gsnedders needs to get train tickets
  745. # [22:05] <cmlenz> maybe the spec could at least allow user agents to behave sensibly? :P
  746. # [22:06] <jgraham> hsivonen: For authors who want to support legacy agents, I would specify that headers pointing to td has to work, not be conforming
  747. # [22:07] <jgraham> Hixie: In this case you're arguing that providing only some of the information that a visual user has access to is more useful so I would say that you are making the more extraordinary claim
  748. # [22:08] <gsnedders> £21.50 to get from Lyon to Cannes. Not bad.
  749. # [22:08] <jgraham> (note I am more concerned with the normal case of a table marked up with <th> and <td> but no @headers than the accessibility-consultant-tweaked case where @headers is used)
  750. # [22:10] <jgraham> Hixie: I also think that if using only the first header in a chain is easier on the user then it is possible to implement that as a UA feature without breaking the spec, whereas I suspect at the moment all AT will just break the spec
  751. # [22:11] <jgraham> Since presenting less information in a new version is unlikely to go down well with the users
  752. # [22:11] <gsnedders> How long should I leave between my flight arriving at CDG and my train leaving?
  753. # [22:13] * jgraham decides it is time to go home
  754. # [22:14] <Hixie> jgraham: the visual user has access to exactly the same information
  755. # [22:14] <Hixie> jgraham: if there are no headers and no scope attributes
  756. # [22:20] <jgraham> Hixie: Not really. If I have a table like <tr><th colspan="6">Sample numbers<tr><th>A<th>B[...]<tr><td>2.34<td>4.65 then the visual user can easilly see that the value 4.65 applies to "Sample number B", whereas the current headers scheme would iirc just show it applies to "B"
  757. # [22:20] <jgraham> Which is less information
  758. # [22:21] <jgraham> Now it may be that the UA wants to optimise away the display of that extra information
  759. # [22:22] <jgraham> By e.g. saying "Sample Number A 2.34, B 4.65" as the user moves across the table
  760. # [22:22] <jgraham> But it should still be associated by the algorithm so it is there if it is needed
  761. # [22:22] <Hixie> according to the spec as it stands today, unless i'm misreading it, 4.65 has two header cells associated with it
  762. # [22:23] <Hixie> Sample numbers and B
  763. # [22:23] <jgraham> Oh, wait a sec, the problem is that B doesn't have samle number as a header cell isn't it
  764. # [22:24] <Hixie> given what i've seen of users reading cells with screen readers, that doesn't seem like useful information
  765. # [22:24] <jgraham> OK, imagine a more complex example where a value could be from batch 1 or batch 2
  766. # [22:24] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  767. # [22:24] <Hixie> i'd rather focus on real examples
  768. # [22:24] <jgraham> so the headers would be "sample", batch number sample number
  769. # [22:25] <jgraham> Hixie: So would I but making them up is easier :)
  770. # [22:25] <Hixie> it's easy to construct hypothetical tables that are nigh-on-impossible to understand even visually
  771. # [22:25] <Hixie> and that would have many nested levels of headers
  772. # [22:25] <Hixie> and god knows what else
  773. # [22:25] <Hixie> but real tables like that suck
  774. # [22:25] <Hixie> and should not be encouraged
  775. # [22:25] <Hixie> and people who want to make things accessible shouldn't just slap on some headers="" attributes to those tables
  776. # [22:26] <Hixie> because all they're doing is making it harder to show that their tables aren't accessible (even to visual users)
  777. # [22:26] <jgraham> I'm not suggesting that they just slap on @headers
  778. # [22:26] <Hixie> you're not, no
  779. # [22:27] <jgraham> I think it's weird if, in my example above there is no way to find out that "A" is a sample number rather than anything else
  780. # [22:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: why pointing to td? why not pointing to th? (re: legacy clients)
  781. # [22:27] <jgraham> Since that information is trivially avaliable visually
  782. # [22:27] <Hixie> jgraham: hit the "up" key
  783. # [22:28] <jgraham> hsivonen: Presumably legacy clients will continue to support legacy tables so de-facto @headers pointing to <th> will work anyway
  784. # [22:28] <jgraham> s/<th>/<td>
  785. # [22:28] <jgraham> We may as well spec reality
  786. # [22:29] <Hixie> reality is that nobody really uses headers="" and we could drop it and the only people who would notice are on public-html
  787. # [22:29] <jgraham> Hixie: Maybe. Doesn't work in some situations where there are data cells between the two headers; I'm sure Ben had a few examples like that
  788. # [22:30] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  789. # [22:30] <jgraham> (that was re "up key")
  790. # [22:30] <Hixie> i'm still confused as to the concept of headers with headers, personally
  791. # [22:30] <jgraham> Hixie: UAs will continue to support it whatever we way
  792. # [22:30] <jgraham> say
  793. # [22:32] <jgraham> Hixie: It just means that in cases where the table algorithm says C is a B is an A, it also says B is an A
  794. # [22:32] * jgraham really is going home now
  795. # [22:33] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
  796. # [22:34] <Hixie> would you ever focus a <label> and ask what <label>s it had?
  797. # [22:36] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  798. # [22:36] * Quits: roc (n=chatzill@121-72-177-254.dsl.telstraclear.net) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070206]")
  799. # [22:40] <Philip`> <label for=q>Secret question</label> <label id=q for=a><input><label> <label for=a>Secret answer</label> <input id=a> - you might want to go from the last input to its first label, and from that to the label's label, although that's probably a bit contrived :-p
  800. # [22:42] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@e180227210.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406]")
  801. # [22:44] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@e180227210.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  802. # [22:48] <gsnedders> Hmmm…¬
  803. # [22:48] <gsnedders> s/¬//
  804. # [22:48] <gsnedders> I wonder if I could get anyone to pay me next summer to work on HTTP5
  805. # [22:51] <Hixie> good luck
  806. # [22:51] <Hixie> though actually the market for paying people to work on standards is slightly better now than it was five years ago
  807. # [22:54] <hsivonen> gsnedders: try to disguise it as documentation for a SoC project
  808. # [22:55] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  809. # [22:56] <gsnedders> Ergh. I need 22p more to get free shipping on Amazon. Sux.
  810. # [22:56] <Hixie> how much is the shipping?
  811. # [22:57] <Lachy> I found out last night that I'm going to be speaking at PubCon in November this year. http://www.pubcon.com/bios/lachlan_hunt.htm
  812. # [22:58] <Lachy> I finally get a chance to go to the US :-)
  813. # [22:59] <Hixie> you'll get over your enthusiasm as soon as you arrive in the US airport :-)
  814. # [22:59] <Hixie> and have to go through hell :-)
  815. # [22:59] <Hixie> s/hell/airport security/
  816. # [22:59] <Hixie> easy typo
  817. # [22:59] <gsnedders> What's the difference, again?
  818. # [23:00] <Hixie> hell doesn't lie about its intentions
  819. # [23:00] <gsnedders> Ah.
  820. # [23:00] <hsivonen> I think the enthusiasm stops before boarding the plane
  821. # [23:00] <Hixie> possible, depends where he's flying from
  822. # [23:01] <hsivonen> last year when going to TPAC, the first interrogation was in Amsterdam before boarding
  823. # [23:01] <Lachy> I will at least remain enthusiastic about temporarily leaving Norway
  824. # [23:01] <Hixie> amsterdam isn't the best place to leave from
  825. # [23:02] <Hixie> then again, if you're flying through amsterdam you'll be so distracted by the risk of losing your luggage in the changeover that you might not notice the interrogation
  826. # [23:02] <gsnedders> It's a better place to change than places like LHR and CDG
  827. # [23:02] <Hixie> oh well sure
  828. # [23:02] <Hixie> who would voluntarily fly through CDG
  829. # [23:02] <Hixie> jesus
  830. # [23:03] <gsnedders> I'm flying into CDG, but that's all right
  831. # [23:03] <gsnedders> Changing, however…
  832. # [23:03] * hsivonen flies through CDG to TPAC
  833. # [23:03] <Hixie> the key to these interogations is to answer every question curtly and precisely without volunteering extra information and absolutely without showing any sign of irritation or annoyance
  834. # [23:03] <gsnedders> (I get straight off plane and on to train right next to the terminal to Lyon)
  835. # [23:03] <Hixie> and to do everything they tell you
  836. # [23:03] <Lachy> what's CDG?
  837. # [23:03] <Hixie> paris charles de gaule
  838. # [23:03] <gsnedders> Lachy: Aeroport de Charles de Gaulle
  839. # [23:03] <gsnedders> (près de Paris)
  840. # [23:04] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@80.76.201.52) ("http://www.csarven.ca")
  841. # [23:04] <Hixie> a crazy retro-futuristic airport and, as far as i can tell, something that was originally only intended as a joke.
  842. # [23:05] <hsivonen> gsnedders: it seemed to me that going from CDG to Nice by train would have required swithing trains in paris with metro in between tha stations
  843. # [23:05] <hsivonen> but I may be wrong
  844. # [23:05] <hsivonen> the SNCF site suck
  845. # [23:05] <hsivonen> sites suck
  846. # [23:05] <gsnedders> hsivonen: No, you can get a train straight from CDG
  847. # [23:05] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
  848. # [23:05] <gsnedders> If you have to change, it should be possible to do it somewhere sane like Lyon Part Dieu (where you'd just have to change platform)
  849. # [23:05] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  850. # [23:06] <gsnedders> Yeah, there are direct trains
  851. # [23:06] <gsnedders> Two per day
  852. # [23:06] <gsnedders> Certainly no need to go to Paris ever
  853. # [23:06] <gsnedders> (That's the one thing worse than changing planes at CDG)
  854. # [23:07] <Hixie> i was just thinking to myself that something was missing, and was trying to work out what it was. but i think i've worked it out. there hasn't been any crazy whining on public-html for days now. wtf.
  855. # [23:07] <gsnedders> Hixie: Want me to post something?
  856. # [23:07] <Hixie> no, no, i'm not complaining
  857. # [23:09] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1) (Client Quit)
  858. # [23:09] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  859. # [23:10] <gsnedders> hsivonen: In my experience flights within France are stupidly expensive
  860. # [23:10] * gsnedders hopes the airline he's coming back on from NCE to EDI doesn't go bust
  861. # [23:10] <gsnedders> (Air France, which I'm flying out on, will just be bailed out by the government almost certainly, so there's no risk there)
  862. # [23:10] <gsnedders> (flying by Air France was 9p cheaper than EasyJet, oddly)
  863. # [23:10] <gsnedders> Now, I meant to do something useful this evening. I don't seem to have done so.
  864. # [23:14] <hsivonen> for the sake of the environment, I hope SNCF gets their Internet act together
  865. # [23:15] <hsivonen> (for some reason, db.de is the place that actually works for searching train schedules between France and Italy)
  866. # [23:15] * Quits: bdash (n=bdash@fire/developer/bdash) ("Changing server")
  867. # [23:16] <gsnedders> hsivonen: DB just generally has a good website that works, though
  868. # [23:16] <gsnedders> Well, not good in terms of design, but perfectly usable
  869. # [23:17] <Hixie> cff has a pretty good site too
  870. # [23:17] <Hixie> don't know if it goes into france
  871. # [23:18] <gsnedders> DB covers all of Europe, which is _really_ useful
  872. # [23:18] <hsivonen> too bad that you can't actually buy tickets there
  873. # [23:19] <Hixie> christ i can't wait to start using a spec gen that doesn't renumber all the IDs every time i add a new <dfn>
  874. # [23:19] <gsnedders> You can… within DE
  875. # [23:19] <hsivonen> but if you go to a vr.fi brick&mortar office, the person there uses the db.de extranet to book tickets e.g. between Hungary and Romania
  876. # [23:19] <gsnedders> Fun :\
  877. # [23:21] <Hixie> <input> is coming along
  878. # [23:21] <Hixie> i wonder how long i can go without actually defining anything
  879. # [23:21] <gsnedders> Hixie: I'd guess at least the end of this month
  880. # [23:21] <gsnedders> Now, PRODUCTIVE TIME!
  881. # [23:23] <gsnedders> Hixie: Were you not born in Zürich?
  882. # [23:23] <gsnedders> Hixie: Which makes you calling it CFF interesting :)
  883. # [23:23] <Hixie> geneva
  884. # [23:23] <gsnedders> Ah, that makes more sense
  885. # [23:24] * Hixie has a dozen cff trains and dozens and dozens of cff rolling stock
  886. # [23:24] * Joins: bdash (n=bdash@fire/developer/bdash)
  887. # [23:24] <Hixie> swiss trains are so pretty
  888. # [23:24] * gsnedders looks over his shoulder not remembering if he did that that one or not
  889. # [23:25] <gsnedders> No, I seem not to
  890. # [23:26] * Quits: Maurice` (i=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  891. # [23:27] * Joins: roc (n=chatzill@202.0.36.64)
  892. # [23:28] <gsnedders> I should upload my photos from Switzerland some time
  893. # [23:28] * gsnedders notes he can't really label them because they're far too old
  894. # [23:28] <gsnedders> 2003, IIRC
  895. # [23:37] <gsnedders> I really suck at writing about why I want to do physics at uni
  896. # [23:38] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-185-61.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  897. # [23:40] <gsnedders> Meh.
  898. # [23:40] <gsnedders> I have around three times the amount about comp.sci.
  899. # [23:42] * gsnedders hits the magic 4000 character limit
  900. # [23:50] <annevk> back, lets see if I can get some Python to run
  901. # [23:52] <gsnedders> annevk: You have 15 minutes to question me.
  902. # [23:52] <gsnedders> I will most likely ignore you anyway, as I need to get this done :)
  903. # [23:52] <Hixie> man, my abilites to procrastrinate know no bounds
  904. # [23:53] <annevk> oh, no questions, it probably won't work
  905. # [23:53] <gsnedders> Hixie: I've done nothing since I got home at 15:40 (it is now 22:48)
  906. # [23:53] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@e180227210.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  907. # [23:53] <annevk> answers.com says that word is without the second r, Hixie
  908. # [23:53] <Hixie> wow, anne's pretty good at it too :-P
  909. # [23:53] <Hixie> (thanks)
  910. # [23:53] <annevk> :p
  911. # [23:54] <Hixie> gsnedders: the thing is i've done lots
  912. # [23:54] <gsnedders> Hixie: I've been trying to write personal statement for UCAS since then, with the exception of 15 mins for supper
  913. # [23:54] <Hixie> gsnedders: just not what i set out to do!
  914. # [23:54] <gsnedders> Oh, I've done plenty
  915. # [23:54] <Hixie> just look at the huge table in the <input> section
  916. # [23:54] <gsnedders> I've been looking up stuff for October, and photographic stuff
  917. # [23:54] <Hixie> yet still nothing is defined
  918. # [23:54] <gsnedders> Oh, and I've been keeping up with most email as it comes in
  919. # [23:54] <gsnedders> And been active in IRC the whole time
  920. # [23:54] <Hixie> sadly there has been so little e-mail
  921. # [23:54] <gsnedders> Not good when UCAS form needs to be done soon.
  922. # [23:55] <annevk> ah, finally, Hixie replaced abuse of <em> with <i>
  923. # [23:55] * annevk reads diffs first
  924. # [23:55] <Hixie> annevk: yet more example of my procrastination!
  925. # [23:56] * gsnedders reads diff too
  926. # [23:56] <gsnedders> MUST WORK.
  927. # [23:56] * gsnedders tweets about our ability to procrastinate
  928. # [23:57] <Hixie> i'd volunteer to ban you for 20 minutes at a time to help you work
  929. # [23:57] <Hixie> but we don't have ops :-)
  930. # [23:57] <gsnedders> hah.
  931. # [23:57] <gsnedders> Hixie: I'd just go to other channels.
  932. # [23:57] <Hixie> d'oh
  933. # [23:57] <gsnedders> http://twitter.com/gsnedders/statuses/923871883
  934. # [23:57] <annevk> file "A label and a button" could also be a "A text field and a button" ...
  935. # [23:58] <Hixie> annevk: i'd rather not encourage people to give a text field, for security reasons
  936. # [23:59] * gsnedders passes Hixie a text field
  937. # Session Close: Wed Sep 17 00:00:00 2008

The end :)