/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-09-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 18 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:08] <Hixie> can anyone think of anything I should add to http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#text2 other than stuff specific to the attributes listed in the penultimate paragraph of that section?
  4. # [00:09] <annevk> shouldn't it remove more line characters?
  5. # [00:11] <Hixie> like what?
  6. # [00:11] <annevk> CR?
  7. # [00:11] <Hixie> CR isn't a line break character in html5 is it?
  8. # [00:11] <annevk> you can insert it through the DOM
  9. # [00:12] <Hixie> sure but i mean it's no different than inserting a U+000\1
  10. # [00:12] <Hixie> U+0001 even
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  12. # [00:12] <annevk> it's counted as a space character
  13. # [00:12] <annevk> FF too btw
  14. # [00:14] <Lachy> Hixie, "If the input element is not dirty then set...", can you link the word dirty to the definition of the dirty state
  15. # [00:14] <Lachy> dirty flag*
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  17. # [00:17] <annevk> "The autocomplete attribute is an enumerated attribute." enumerated attribute is not a pointer
  18. # [00:17] <annevk> prolly because the dfn is plural
  19. # [00:19] <annevk> that's not it
  20. # [00:19] <jgraham> gsnedders: Switching the phy/comp sci around might help
  21. # [00:19] <annevk> it simply misses <span>
  22. # [00:19] * jgraham wonders if gsnedders is actually around atm
  23. # [00:20] <Hixie> annevk: fixed the dirty flag and enumerated attribute xref problems
  24. # [00:20] <Hixie> looks like IE strips \n and \r and leaves everything else
  25. # [00:20] <Hixie> so i'll do that
  26. # [00:21] <annevk> I expected as much :)
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  28. # [00:35] <annevk> Hixie, having a normative table that says which attributes can be specified on <input> depending on the state would be much better than two paragraphs at the end of each state
  29. # [00:36] <annevk> as you did in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#summary
  30. # [00:36] <Hixie> yeah, i was thinking of having both
  31. # [00:37] <Hixie> the paragraph is useful because then it's right there
  32. # [00:37] <Hixie> with the rest of the state's definition
  33. # [00:37] <annevk> I suppose
  34. # [00:37] <annevk> if you can keep it all in sync :)
  35. # [00:37] <Hixie> wf2 had two too
  36. # [00:38] <Hixie> it had the table in the appendix and a paragraph for each atribute
  37. # [00:39] <annevk> so is each attribute also getting a paragraph stating for what states it can be used?
  38. # [00:39] <Hixie> no
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  40. # [00:41] <Hixie> you can find out who autocomplete is applicable to by clicking teh definition of the attribute
  41. # [00:42] <annevk> fair enough, I suppose
  42. # [00:42] <Hixie> gotta go
  43. # [00:42] <Hixie> bbiab
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  48. # [01:15] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Sep/att-0037/2008-09-17.html#topic5
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  55. # [01:49] <Hixie> i wonder where they got the idea that we dropped the repetition model
  56. # [01:50] <Hixie> i mean, we will, but i hadn't planned to do it until later
  57. # [01:50] <Hixie> i suppose i have already removed move-up and so forth
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  59. # [01:56] <hober> Is anyone planning on observing any of the tag's 1.5 days of html5 discussion while @ tpac?
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  61. # [02:03] <Hixie> oh these are tpac agenda items?
  62. # [02:03] <Hixie> i thought it was for their meeting next week
  63. # [02:03] <hober> oh
  64. # [02:03] <hober> yeah, didn't notice they had a separate f2f
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  66. # [02:11] <Hixie> annevk: ok, made a table for you
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  93. # [05:46] <Hixie> Lachy: i can't find any news about requiem for itunes 8
  94. # [05:46] <Hixie> heard anything?
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  100. # [06:47] * Hixie installs freeenode just so he can see if there's an update
  101. # [06:47] <Hixie> apparently the guy is working on it
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  111. # [07:51] <Hixie> wow
  112. # [07:51] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/c9e12660809172229u79084b7dv5d57e18e2834e5f6@mail.gmail.com
  113. # [07:51] <Hixie> some people have issues
  114. # [07:52] <Hixie> and then there's this guy
  115. # [07:57] * weinig boggles
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  117. # [08:06] <othermaciej> Hixie: I actually replied to that - perhaps somewhat foolishly
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  123. # [08:24] <Hixie> othermaciej: nice reply
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  127. # [08:39] <Lachy> Hixie, no news about requiem yet, the project page on freenet says he's working on it.
  128. # [08:40] <Hixie> yeah i installed freenet to find that out
  129. # [08:40] <Hixie> :-)
  130. # [08:40] <Hixie> freenet is somewhat simpler to set up than it was four years ago
  131. # [08:40] <Hixie> but it's still a giant pain in the ass
  132. # [08:41] <Hixie> felt much faster though
  133. # [08:44] <othermaciej> what's requiem?
  134. # [08:44] <Lachy> there's a possibility that backing up the iTunes 7 key files, changing the path in the requiem source to use the backup instead and recompiling may work, however, I've been unable to test it because the free songs of the week have been iTunes Plus songs
  135. # [08:44] <Lachy> othermaciej, a utility for stripping FairPlay DRM from iTunes purchases
  136. # [08:45] * othermaciej covers his ears lest hearing of such things leads him into sin
  137. # [08:46] <othermaciej> I generally avoid buying songs with DRM on them
  138. # [08:46] <Lachy> so do I, but videos aren't available with DRM yet
  139. # [08:46] <othermaciej> but the fact that non-iTunes stores can offer them now but not iTMS due to the labels being jerks kind of annoys me
  140. # [08:47] <Hixie> music isn't the problem, i'm happy to buy music at amazon
  141. # [08:47] <othermaciej> to the degree that it has reduced my level of music purchasing
  142. # [08:47] <Hixie> (though i do always check itunes first since it's so much easier)
  143. # [08:48] <Hixie> (and my girlfriend's reaction to hearing about requiem put me in a quandry -- "so... does that mean it's ok to buy songs from itunes that aren't tunes plus again?"
  144. # [08:48] <Hixie> i wasn't sure what to answer.)
  145. # [08:48] <Lachy> Hixie, another possibility is to just keep iTunes 7 on one machine, or even in a virtual machne, specifically for stripping DRM, and putting iTunes 8 on your other machines
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  147. # [08:48] <othermaciej> I only check iTunes because I don't want to be party to the labels trying to blackmail it so they can reduce its market power and then reimpose DRM and add crappy pricing policies
  148. # [08:48] * hsivonen notes that "international later this year" meant approximately two English-speaking countries
  149. # [08:48] <hsivonen> (for movie rentals)
  150. # [08:49] <hsivonen> I wonder if the unavailability of TV shows and movies over here is contractual stupidity or if Apple feels it couldn't sell untranslated content
  151. # [08:49] <Hixie> Lachy: right now i have a cron job that automatically decrypts videos each morning
  152. # [08:50] <Lachy> do you buy videos that frequently?
  153. # [08:50] <Hixie> Lachy: it would be way harder to do that if said job had to find encrypted data, move it to another partition, etc
  154. # [08:50] <Hixie> yes
  155. # [08:50] <Hixie> i watch stargate every week, and buy a couple of daily shows a week at laest
  156. # [08:51] <Hixie> and my girlfriend buys more for herself
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  158. # [08:51] <Hixie> we have 718 tv shows on our main library
  159. # [08:51] <Hixie> and that doesn't include her latest stuf
  160. # [08:51] <Hixie> f
  161. # [08:51] <Hixie> (all bought from itunes)
  162. # [08:52] <Hixie> speaking of which i really should move her stuff to the main library
  163. # [08:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: I guess from daily show we can calculate the negative value you put on the ads of the free'online versions
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  165. # [08:53] <Hixie> there are four things that make me get the (paid) itunes version over the (free) web version
  166. # [08:54] <Hixie> 1. the paid version is a standalone MPEG, and thus can be viewed offline, viewed on my ipod, viewed over a network on a remote itunes install, etc.
  167. # [08:54] <Hixie> (whereas the free version is stuck in a browser in a flash container)
  168. # [08:54] <Hixie> 2. the free version has ads.
  169. # [08:55] <Hixie> 3. the free version has unskippable content.
  170. # [08:56] <Hixie> 4. the paid version is much easier to obtain (the itunes store is easier to navigate than the web site, possibly because when i want to watch tv i'm usually already in itunes, and not looking at a web site)
  171. # [08:57] <hsivonen> #4 doesn't look good for the open web :-)
  172. # [08:57] <Hixie> if itunes had a free version with ads embedded, but otherwise was the same as now (ads skippable, no restriction on use, etc) i would probably watch that instead of the paid one
  173. # [08:57] <Hixie> 4 is not a technology issue
  174. # [08:57] <Hixie> someone could make a web version of the itunes store
  175. # [08:58] <Hixie> sadly the state of ui design on the web is generally horrific
  176. # [08:58] <Lachy> for that to happen, you would have to convince the marketing dept. that allowing users to skip ads won't reduce the number of people that pay attention to them anyway
  177. # [08:59] <othermaciej> eventually the ads will have to be embedded as an intrinsic part of the content
  178. # [08:59] <othermaciej> so that you cannot skip them even mentally
  179. # [08:59] <othermaciej> (i.e. product placement)
  180. # [08:59] <othermaciej> some of the best Apple ads are seeing flashes of brushed aluminum cases on the teevee
  181. # [09:00] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-202-234.bredband.comhem.se) (Remote closed the connection)
  182. # [09:00] <hsivonen> Lachy: you really can't miss the ads in the free version. they are so repetitive.
  183. # [09:00] <Lachy> I'm don't even know what the daily show is
  184. # [09:01] <Lachy> is this the one? http://www.thedailyshow.com/
  185. # [09:01] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes
  186. # [09:02] <Lachy> ok, I've seen a few clips of that on youtube before
  187. # [09:07] <othermaciej> Hixie: see, I knew I shouldn't have replied
  188. # [09:07] <Hixie> the daily show is arguably the best (and one of only a few) political satire shows in the US
  189. # [09:08] <othermaciej> it's a satire?
  190. # [09:08] <Hixie> well, maybe satire is wrong
  191. # [09:08] <Hixie> colbert is satire
  192. # [09:08] <Hixie> daily show is probably just straight comedy
  193. # [09:09] <Hixie> it is very tame compared to european political comedy (e.g. have i got news for you, john bird and john fortune, etc)
  194. # [09:09] <Hixie> but sadly it's all we've got really
  195. # [09:09] <Lachy> if it's mostly political stuff, I'll avoid it. I have no interest in US politics, even though I hear about it from so many places already
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  197. # [09:10] <Hixie> yeah if you don't care about US politics the daily show (and colbert) isn't for you
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  200. # [09:11] <Lachy> I don't care about politics in general, regardless of what country it is.
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  202. # [09:46] <annevk> colbert is awesome
  203. # [09:52] <Hixie> colbert is ok
  204. # [09:52] <Hixie> but he gets repetitive
  205. # [09:52] <Hixie> and shouts a lot
  206. # [09:52] <annevk> i haven't seen too much of him
  207. # [09:52] <annevk> mostly the white house thingy and that's great
  208. # [09:52] <othermaciej> he is personally funnier than John Stewart
  209. # [09:52] <othermaciej> but his show can be uneven
  210. # [09:52] <othermaciej> IMO
  211. # [09:52] <Hixie> annevk: i've got 22.4 horus of him in my itunes library :-)
  212. # [09:53] <Hixie> othermaciej: agreed
  213. # [09:53] <Hixie> hours
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  215. # [10:03] <annevk> wow, garrett smith lost it again
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  217. # [10:09] <othermaciej> annevk: I don't think he ever found it
  218. # [10:09] <annevk> hmm, is Mozilla gaining a second XHR? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=450452 :/
  219. # [10:10] * annevk wonders what happened to the days when they tried to follow standards
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  221. # [10:25] <hsivonen> annevk: isn't XHR without the DOM what was the plan for workers?
  222. # [10:25] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  223. # [10:26] <othermaciej> we're going to do the same for workers
  224. # [10:26] <othermaciej> I think most would agree it is the right thing to do
  225. # [10:27] <hsivonen> is everyone going to call it XMLHttpRequest for compatibility, though?
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  227. # [10:30] <annevk> hsivonen, Web Workers has a nicer solution for that
  228. # [10:31] <hsivonen> annevk: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-workers/current-work/#interface
  229. # [10:31] <hsivonen> annevk: what am I missing?
  230. # [10:32] <annevk> hmm ok, Mozilla does seem to call it XMLHttpRequest as seen from code
  231. # [10:32] <annevk> maybe I'm missing something
  232. # [10:33] <annevk> hsivonen, it seemed to me that doing what Web Workers defined was simpler than having a second XHR impl
  233. # [10:34] <annevk> lots of duplicate code now
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  235. # [10:34] <annevk> which basically means you have to run the testsuite in both contexts I suppose in some way
  236. # [10:35] <othermaciej> should not be hard to make a Workers version
  237. # [10:36] <hsivonen> annevk: wasn't it the expectation that C++-based browsers would have to duplicate some code?
  238. # [10:36] <annevk> I missed that discussion I'm afraid
  239. # [10:40] <annevk> in somewhat related news, this, together with native JSON support in XHR and postMessage in due course, will kill XML even more
  240. # [10:42] <hsivonen> it seems to me that the document-oriented stuff is gravitating back towards HTML and the data oriented stuff is going to JSON
  241. # [10:43] <hsivonen> however, doing document fragments over JSON sucks
  242. # [10:43] <hsivonen> it's like RSS all over again
  243. # [10:43] <aboodman> having a DOMParser and XMLSerializer in workeres seems useful to me
  244. # [10:43] <aboodman> but everyone said it was hard
  245. # [10:44] <hsivonen> I renew my prediction that someone will create a pure-JS DOMParser and DOM for workers
  246. # [10:45] <annevk> people have already created complete DOM wrappers without workers :)
  247. # [10:45] * Joins: Mau`werk (n=ano@a80-100-71-209.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  248. # [10:46] <othermaciej> it would not be as hard if one were willing to make every single worker a separate process
  249. # [10:46] <hsivonen> annevk: has anyone written a conforming XML parser (not regexp hack) in JS yet?
  250. # [10:46] <othermaciej> but I think that is kind of expensive
  251. # [10:46] * Joins: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@AMontsouris-108-1-3-171.w80-11.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  252. # [10:46] <hsivonen> othermaciej: or if one were willing to develop a second DOM impl in C++
  253. # [10:47] <othermaciej> well but that's a lot of work
  254. # [10:47] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@AMontsouris-108-1-1-233.w80-11.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Nick collision from services.)
  255. # [10:47] * aboodman2 is now known as aboodman
  256. # [10:47] <Hixie> i don't understand why dom implementations have to require locking to be thread safe
  257. # [10:47] <othermaciej> probably even more than making the DOM threadsafe at least at the separate document level
  258. # [10:47] <Hixie> what global state is there?
  259. # [10:47] <roc> caches
  260. # [10:47] <othermaciej> the global state is not intrinsic in the spec
  261. # [10:47] <Hixie> so long as you can never pass a dom node to another thread, what's the concern?
  262. # [10:47] <othermaciej> caches, global resource pools
  263. # [10:47] <roc> atomized strings and other objects
  264. # [10:47] <othermaciej> that kind of thing
  265. # [10:47] <othermaciej> I bet the set of things is similar in Gecko and WebKit
  266. # [10:48] <Hixie> atomised strings seem like they'd be trivial to make threadsafe, given that they're readonly
  267. # [10:48] <othermaciej> I bet furthermore that most people know the likely suspects but not all of them
  268. # [10:48] <Hixie> though i guess you need locking to create them
  269. # [10:48] <othermaciej> the hashtable used to atomize is not read-only
  270. # [10:48] <othermaciej> or are the refcounts read-only
  271. # [10:48] <hsivonen> roc: aren't nsIAtoms thread safe already?
  272. # [10:48] <Hixie> ah, if they have bound lifetimes, sure
  273. # [10:48] <aboodman> roc: how much of xhr impl is going to be shared between the worker and nonworker variants?
  274. # [10:48] <Hixie> though ref counting atoms seems like an unnecessary cost
  275. # [10:48] <Hixie> but what do i know
  276. # [10:49] <othermaciej> you'd also have to make sure the Worker DOM can never ever load external resources
  277. # [10:49] <roc> aboodman: no idea!
  278. # [10:49] <othermaciej> or you just pulled the cache in
  279. # [10:49] <aboodman> seems like an opp for bugs.
  280. # [10:50] * Joins: met_ (n=Hassman@rb5dr234.net.upc.cz)
  281. # [10:52] <roc> hsivonen: I don't believe so
  282. # [10:53] <roc> you could make all the global storage for DOM optimizations thread-local. No idea what the performance hit would be
  283. # [10:53] <aboodman> we could add the x later
  284. # [10:53] <aboodman> it just seems silly to call it xhr initially, when there is no x involved :)
  285. # [10:53] <hsivonen> roc: ok. I thought they were thread safe and someone suggested making them not thread safe for perf
  286. # [10:53] <aboodman> maybe we should add the api now, and just have it throw not implemented?
  287. # [10:54] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-247-207.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  288. # [10:55] <roc> hsivonen: it looks like that suggestion was implemented last year :-) https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387445
  289. # [10:55] <annevk> aboodman, the name is just an historical artifact
  290. # [10:55] <hsivonen> which process are Gears workers in when a Chrome WebKit process spawns one?
  291. # [10:55] <aboodman> all plugins (including gears) run in their own process
  292. # [10:56] <hsivonen> roc: ok. so my memory isn't completely broken but I'm behind the times
  293. # [10:56] <aboodman> annevk: i know, but now it is getting even sillier.
  294. # [10:56] <hsivonen> aboodman: per-plugin instance process or a shared plug-in host process?
  295. # [10:57] <roc> aboodman: is it true that V8 can only instantiate one single-thread JS runtime per process?
  296. # [10:57] <annevk> aboodman, just think of it as "URLRequest"
  297. # [10:57] <aboodman> annevk: heh, ok.
  298. # [10:57] <roc> hsivonen: I had to look it up --- my memory *is* completely broken
  299. # [10:57] <roc> well not really. It's just full.
  300. # [10:58] <aboodman> roc: not really, i mean, workers all run in threads in one process.
  301. # [10:58] <aboodman> but, the locking is rather coarse.
  302. # [10:58] <aboodman> i think they are working on making it finer.
  303. # [10:59] <roc> so no concurrent JS execution?
  304. # [10:59] <aboodman> i don't think so. i'm not super familiar with it.
  305. # [10:59] <aboodman> i believe right now it only yields at io.
  306. # [11:00] <roc> ok, that's what I heard. It seemed strange given that Workers have been on the radar for a while
  307. # [11:00] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  308. # [11:01] <aboodman> yeah, maybe something that just hasn't been tackled yet.
  309. # [11:01] <aboodman> i mean, workers aren't 'on the radar' for us
  310. # [11:01] <aboodman> they actually exist
  311. # [11:02] * roc wonders how long it will be before JS engines are competing on scalability across stupidly-large numbers of processor cores
  312. # [11:02] <roc> yeah, exactyl
  313. # [11:02] <roc> which is why I was suprise
  314. # [11:02] <roc> d
  315. # [11:03] <annevk> it would be nice if the <canvas> API worked in a thread
  316. # [11:03] * Joins: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@AMontsouris-108-1-6-193.w80-15.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  317. # [11:03] <annevk> so you can create fractals and then pass them over when they're done :)
  318. # [11:03] <hsivonen> is there a document that explains the interfaces between Gears and the host browsers and what Gears reimplments and what it reuses?
  319. # [11:03] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@AMontsouris-108-1-3-171.w80-11.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Nick collision from services.)
  320. # [11:03] * aboodman2 is now known as aboodman
  321. # [11:03] <aboodman> freaking france.
  322. # [11:04] <aboodman> so i just did a quick test on chrome and i got concurrent js execution
  323. # [11:04] <roc> annevk: you can fill up a string with encoded values
  324. # [11:04] <Philip`> V8 does look like it supports multithreading, since it's got a load of references to the word "thread" and mutexes and things
  325. # [11:04] <aboodman> so i'm not sure, maybe they have already improved it
  326. # [11:04] <aboodman> or maybe they interleave the pumps of the message queue
  327. # [11:05] <othermaciej> last I heard, V8 only supports semi multithreading with one thread running at a time but the potential to ield around I/O
  328. # [11:05] <othermaciej> aboodman: how does Gears take over the network layer in Chrome btw?
  329. # [11:06] <aboodman> there is an extension to npapi
  330. # [11:06] <aboodman> called cpapi
  331. # [11:06] <annevk> roc, true, though having something like, canvas = new DOMCanvas(w, h) that supports the same as <canvas> might be nice
  332. # [11:06] <othermaciej> annevk: then you'd need a threadsafe way to pass over the image data
  333. # [11:06] <othermaciej> so it would have to be either full copy or copy in write
  334. # [11:06] <annevk> othermaciej, data URLs
  335. # [11:06] <Philip`> Most of the non-pointless computation-intensive worker uses (e.g. computing fractals) seem to involve quite large amounts of IO between the worker and main thread, which doesn't sound exactly great for performance
  336. # [11:07] <aboodman> hsivonen: i don't understand the question
  337. # [11:07] <othermaciej> annevk: encoding and decoding data URLs is weak sauce for large images
  338. # [11:08] <roc> aboodman: hmm, see http://groups.google.com/group/v8-users/browse_thread/thread/482575a1186e8cba/855fef2fa7de58b8?lnk=gst&q=thread#855fef2fa7de58b8
  339. # [11:08] <othermaciej> Philip`: you just need an efficient way to transfer a large buffer when the worker is done
  340. # [11:08] <othermaciej> probably some sort of ByteArray w/ underlying threadsafe copy-on-write when transferred
  341. # [11:08] <Hixie> othermaciej: if we wanted to design for this, we could define a way for an object to be transferred, just like we do with message ports
  342. # [11:08] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@rb5dr234.net.upc.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  343. # [11:09] <Hixie> othermaciej: i don't think off-thread image construction is a critical case though
  344. # [11:09] <othermaciej> there's no good way to represent generic binary data right now anyway
  345. # [11:09] <othermaciej> something to think about as we try to add binary data to the platform
  346. # [11:09] <hsivonen> aboodman: is there a document that explains the integration to the host browser, like APIs used, etc.?
  347. # [11:09] <aboodman> roc: watching the behavior (not looking at the code), my guess is that there is a lock around every message queue dispatch on any thread.
  348. # [11:10] <aboodman> so only one thread is running at a time
  349. # [11:10] <aboodman> does not take advantage of multicore :(
  350. # [11:10] <othermaciej> JavaScriptCore can actually run JS code on multiple threads in parallel
  351. # [11:10] <aboodman> i think this will eventually improve
  352. # [11:10] <othermaciej> and our Worker implementation in WebKit will do so
  353. # [11:10] <roc> so does Spidermonkey/TM
  354. # [11:10] <aboodman> othermaciej: what can i say, you guys rox
  355. # [11:10] <othermaciej> presumably the V8 likely reimplementation will have to back that out and add locking and stuff
  356. # [11:11] <aboodman> othermaciej: why?
  357. # [11:11] <hsivonen> roc: is the name of the whole engine going to stay as spidermonkey or is tracing so big a deal that the name of the engine is changing to tracemonkey?
  358. # [11:11] <roc> no idea
  359. # [11:11] <othermaciej> aboodman: well unless V8 is able to run JS code on multiple threads concurrently for real by then
  360. # [11:11] <aboodman> hsivonen: no, sorry
  361. # [11:11] <othermaciej> though I did not get the impression that this was in any way planned
  362. # [11:11] <hsivonen> aboodman: ok. :-(
  363. # [11:11] <aboodman> hsivonen: did you have a specific question?
  364. # [11:12] <roc> Spidermonkey can actually share arbitary JS objects between threads, which as far as I can tell is pretty stupid
  365. # [11:12] <othermaciej> that is kind of stupid
  366. # [11:12] <othermaciej> JSC can't
  367. # [11:12] <othermaciej> our threading is designed for full concurrency in the shared-nothing message-passing style case
  368. # [11:12] <hsivonen> aboodman: I have two: Does Gears reuse the host JS engine. And why does Gears show up on the list of NPAPI plug-ins if it's not one (or is it)?
  369. # [11:12] <aboodman> othermaciej: can't we just add a #if USE(V8) or something that waits for a lock before pumping messages?
  370. # [11:12] <aboodman> to webcore
  371. # [11:12] * Philip` uses SpiderMonkey in multiple threads but has a completely separate runtime in each
  372. # [11:13] <aboodman> it seems like a pretty minor change
  373. # [11:13] <roc> I think I heard that there are certain Spidermonkey embedders that depend on that feature :-(
  374. # [11:13] <aboodman> hsivonen: let's take this into private chat to avoid annoying people
  375. # [11:14] <othermaciej> aboodman: I do not get what you mean
  376. # [11:14] <othermaciej> what I was trying to say is that WebKit
  377. # [11:14] <othermaciej> 's workers will support execution of JS on multiple threads concurrently for real
  378. # [11:14] <roc> BTW, the best way to compute fractals I've seen is to run them on the GPU with Vlad's Canvas3D :-)
  379. # [11:14] <othermaciej> but likely not the V8 version when/if Google reimplements it using V8
  380. # [11:15] <roc> Mandelbrot and other per-pixel iterators, anyway
  381. # [11:15] <othermaciej> since V8 can't support actually running actual code in parallel, it only does coop threads effectively
  382. # [11:15] <Philip`> roc: Only if by "best" you don't mind being incompatible with most people's GPU hardware :-)
  383. # [11:16] <roc> yeah yeah
  384. # [11:17] <othermaciej> shader languages are a good way to do it
  385. # [11:17] <othermaciej> most modern machines can support them
  386. # [11:17] <othermaciej> but
  387. # [11:17] <othermaciej> I don't think there is a safe way to expose that capability to untrusted code from the Web
  388. # [11:17] <othermaciej> (other than as canned effects)
  389. # [11:17] * Philip` 's first attempt at Canvas3D code only worked on NVIDIA on Windows, and failed on OS X because the drivers lacked a GLSL bug
  390. # [11:17] * Joins: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@AMontsouris-108-1-9-78.w80-11.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  391. # [11:18] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@AMontsouris-108-1-6-193.w80-15.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Nick collision from services.)
  392. # [11:18] * aboodman2 is now known as aboodman
  393. # [11:18] <aboodman> sorry, i am at a conference and the network sucks here.
  394. # [11:18] <roc> I think in principle, untrusted shaders should be OK
  395. # [11:18] <roc> in practice, drivers probably suck and crash in exploitable ways
  396. # [11:19] * roc hasn't been able to find someone with the cycles to do that testing
  397. # [11:19] <Philip`> The current Canvas3D implementation seems to basically ignore the whole exploitability protection thing
  398. # [11:20] <roc> yep
  399. # [11:20] <roc> well
  400. # [11:20] <roc> it "makes optimistic assumptions"
  401. # [11:20] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-05fe98f5be05fe53)
  402. # [11:20] <Philip`> Like it assumes the content is not hostile? :-)
  403. # [11:21] <roc> again, in principle shaders can't read or write to system memory and errors should be trapped by the driver
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  409. # [11:21] <Philip`> Some of my non-hostile content ended up getting random bytes of stack data from a function call :-(
  410. # [11:21] <roc> but we sure aren't enabling it for Web content by default without a lot more analysis
  411. # [11:21] * Quits: malde_ (n=chatzill@p5098a50c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  412. # [11:22] <aboodman> othermaciej: yes, workers in chrome won't support true js concurrency until v8 does.
  413. # [11:24] <Philip`> There are enough differences in shader implementations between drivers that even if it was perfectly secure, it seems a really bad idea for interoperability - I don't want sites to require NVIDIA hardware, and I don't want to write sites myself that I can only test on NVIDIA and that totally break on other hardware
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  422. # [11:26] <roc> I presuppose a future where drivers are less buggy
  423. # [11:26] * Joins: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@AMontsouris-108-1-8-82.w80-11.abo.wanadoo.fr)
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  425. # [11:26] * aboodman2 is now known as aboodman
  426. # [11:26] * Joins: annevk_m (i=4da3f3cb@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5a0622b6027a7de6)
  427. # [11:26] <roc> but maybe "shaders" are a dead end and we'll just have different kinds of "cores" to run C code on
  428. # [11:26] <hsivonen> Philip`: Apple had some OpenGL extensions that were supposed to abstract away nvidia/ati/intel difference. do those extensions really work so that the user won't notice?
  429. # [11:27] <annevk_m> Hixie, should Password allow list=""?
  430. # [11:27] <roc> GL doesn't need extensions to abstract away differences
  431. # [11:27] <othermaciej> I would guess to the extent drivers consider security, it is in terms of protecting the kernel and privileged processes from normal apps
  432. # [11:27] <roc> there's already a common shader langauge
  433. # [11:27] <roc> it's just implemented poorly
  434. # [11:27] <othermaciej> not protecting normal apps from programs they run on the GPU
  435. # [11:27] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@203-158-36-226.dyn.iinet.net.au)
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  437. # [11:27] * Joins: jmb^ (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk)
  438. # [11:28] <othermaciej> that being said many drivers have bugs whereby doing certain things could take the system down
  439. # [11:30] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  440. # [11:30] <hsivonen> has anyone tried to come up with a canvas 3d abstraction that was in between the Opera and Mozilla levels of closeness to OpenGL?
  441. # [11:31] <Philip`> roc: Have you seen Larrabee? (which is Intel's idea of sticking a load of fast Pentium cores with 512-bit SIMD onto a chip, and then just writing graphics rendering software in C (or whatever language you want) and running it on there)
  442. # [11:31] <roc> I haven't actually seen one no
  443. # [11:31] <roc> I know about it
  444. # [11:32] <roc> hsivonen: if you want to support GPU programming then you need a language to write those programs in
  445. # [11:32] <roc> it's unclear why you'd want to create a new language rather than choose an existing one
  446. # [11:33] <hsivonen> roc: ideally, one wouldn't want a new language, but there seems to be a need for sandboxing capabilities
  447. # [11:33] <roc> there isn't really
  448. # [11:34] <roc> GLSL doesn't provide any facilities to access system memory or execute arbitrary code
  449. # [11:34] <hsivonen> though I admit I don't really know anything about modern OpenGL shaders
  450. # [11:34] <hsivonen> I haven't programmed anything with OpenGL in 6 years
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  454. # [11:35] <hsivonen> would it be feasible for a browser to sanitize shaders? or are the bugs underneath too crazy?
  455. # [11:36] <roc> if the problems are all driver bugs, it's not clear how you sanitize against that
  456. # [11:36] <roc> maybe you can parse the code and re-emit it in some clean format to protect against driver parser issues
  457. # [11:37] <roc> maybe add some simple resource limits
  458. # [11:37] <roc> I dunno
  459. # [11:37] <Philip`> When you've parsed the code you can also check that e.g. all the external function calls are valid standard ones
  460. # [11:38] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  461. # [11:39] <roc> I guess so
  462. # [11:39] <roc> I don't know what kind of dangerous external function calls there might be
  463. # [11:39] <roc> you obviously can't call regular functions
  464. # [11:42] <Philip`> I'm just thinking about interoperability again, e.g. if someone calls the function "clamp" then complain because it shouldn't exist even if the GL driver accepts it
  465. # [11:43] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  466. # [11:43] * jmb^ is now known as jmb
  467. # [11:43] <roc> good point
  468. # [11:43] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  469. # [11:44] <Philip`> There's also the issue that not all implementors want to use GL (because e.g. on Windows the DirectX drivers are better, and on some devices (like consoles) there isn't quite an OpenGL implementation at all)
  470. # [11:44] <roc> yeah
  471. # [11:44] <Philip`> and translating GLSL programs into HLSL is not the most desirable of things to do
  472. # [11:45] <roc> but that gets back to the issue where if you're going to have a language, what do you do?
  473. # [11:45] <roc> implementing GLSL on D3D may suck, but does it suck more than implementing a new language on every stack?
  474. # [11:45] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  475. # [11:45] <Philip`> (and using something unstandardised like Cg is probably not a good idea either)
  476. # [11:46] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  477. # [11:46] <othermaciej> OpenCL!
  478. # [11:46] <Philip`> I don't really want OpenCL in a browser :-p
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  480. # [11:48] <hsivonen> is there a sound techincal reason for D3D to exist or is it just a strategy thing?
  481. # [11:48] * Philip` isn't sure how to nicely do anything except not have programmable shaders, which would be quite annoying
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  483. # [11:48] <othermaciej> hsivonen: OpenGL is not sufficiently technically capable of excluding Microsoft's competition
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  485. # [11:49] <Philip`> hsivonen: OpenGL has too much legacy cruft and too many users who don't want it to make their 15-year-old CAD programs stop working, so it's poorly suited to modern hardware and very hard to fix
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  487. # [11:50] <othermaciej> same kind of technical reasons as there are behind C#, VC-1, Managed C++, Silverlight, and other such sterling Microsoft technical initiatives
  488. # [11:50] <Philip`> or at least that's what people were saying when OpenGL 3.0 turned out to be really boring
  489. # [11:50] <aaronlev> hsivonen: have you thought about integrating validator.nu into tools like Komodo or Eclipse, for source-level error highlighting as you type?
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  491. # [11:52] <hsivonen> aaronlev: It has occurred to me that it could be done, but I don't have concrete plans of doing it myself
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  496. # [11:58] <roc> ah, the solution is staring us in the face
  497. # [11:58] <roc> we should write Web shaders in JS
  498. # [12:01] <Hixie> annevk2: no, but i've already fixed the spec
  499. # [12:02] <Hixie> i wonder what julian had in mind (re his latest e-mail)
  500. # [12:03] <othermaciej> I would love to have validator.nu support in the WebKit Web inspector
  501. # [12:03] <othermaciej> wonder if xenon can be convinced
  502. # [12:03] <othermaciej> but we might need error messages in a good machine-parsable format to display them nicely, if we want to do more than just send you to the results page
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  504. # [12:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: resolving issues according to calendar?
  505. # [12:13] <hsivonen> othermaciej: does out=xml, out=gnu or out=json count as a good machine-parseable format?
  506. # [12:14] <othermaciej> hsivonen: dunno, have not studied any of those, but they might well be
  507. # [12:14] <Philip`> roc: I'm not entirely sure how you'd implement e.g. eval() on a GPU
  508. # [12:14] <hsivonen> the validator.nu vim integration uses out=gnu, AFAIK
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  510. # [12:14] <Philip`> and I don't think we'll convince the GPU manufacturers to design a hardware implementation of a JS interpreter
  511. # [12:15] <Philip`> although it'd be pretty cool if we did
  512. # [12:16] <Philip`> It'd be the obvious evolution of the current JS performance increases
  513. # [12:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: wouldn't their HW impl have the same expected level of bugs as the current shader lang impl?
  514. # [12:18] <Philip`> hsivonen: No, since they would be designing it to be used by JS programmers (who are often incompetent or malicious), whereas current shader languages are designed to be used (indirectly) by C programmers (who are also often incompetent or malicious but already have complete user-space access to the machine so it doesn't matter if you give them a few more ways to crash)
  515. # [12:19] * Philip` wants a JS engine that JITs to Verilog
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  520. # [12:23] <Hixie> hsivonen: resolving how?
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  522. # [12:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: forcing a decision maybe. I don't know.
  523. # [12:24] * Philip` notes that someone already suggested allowing something like ctx2d.globalCompositeOperation = function (src,dest) { ... }
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  525. # [12:28] <Hixie> hsivonen: if he has something that he thinks is high priority, why doesn't he just tell me what it is?
  526. # [12:29] <annevk2> seems hard for hsivonen to answer that question
  527. # [12:29] <Hixie> yeah
  528. # [12:29] <Hixie> it was mostly rhetorical
  529. # [12:30] <annevk2> as for DanC, I think he believes certain issues have been discussed in enough detail and can be closed after the WG has made a decision
  530. # [12:31] <annevk2> at least, that's the impression I get from telcons
  531. # [12:35] <othermaciej> I didn't read Chris's response to my flamage because I am worried it will piss me off more and I am close to my monthly stress quota
  532. # [12:35] <othermaciej> (about deciding things in telecons)
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  534. # [12:39] <Hixie> i don't recall it being worthy of such worry
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  536. # [12:45] <annevk2> ah, http://dev.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/dns-prefetching explains the <meta name=dns> feature
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  538. # [12:47] <annevk2> (which was killed in http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1538&to=1539 fwiw)
  539. # [12:47] <Hixie> actually the two are unrelated
  540. # [12:48] <Hixie> well, they're both caused by content teams within google lamenting the slow speed of dns
  541. # [12:49] <othermaciej> you mean "unrelated" as in they do different things, or unrelated as in you had a similar idea totally by coincidence?
  542. # [12:49] <Hixie> but the feature that was in html5 and the feature in chrome weren't developed in tandem
  543. # [12:49] <Hixie> othermaciej: so neither, in answer to your question
  544. # [12:50] <Hixie> othermaciej: the idea was had due to the same impetus, and they do similar things, but they weren't caused by each other
  545. # [12:50] <othermaciej> mmmkay
  546. # [12:50] <Philip`> Web servers should parse the HTML they're serving, and pre-resolve all the DNS names into IPs before sending it to the browser
  547. # [12:50] <Hixie> (though i did advise the chrome team on their dns prefetching feature)
  548. # [12:50] <othermaciej> I think dns prefetch will be merged to mainline WebKit at some point but the initial patch had some implementation issues
  549. # [12:50] <annevk2> the <meta> hack on that page looks terrible
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  551. # [12:51] <othermaciej> in that it hooked DNS prefetch into the style system
  552. # [12:51] <Hixie> annevk2: how so? it's just doing the same thing as the http header
  553. # [12:52] <Hixie> oh wow, the example suggests you can interleave <meta> and <a>, that's crazy
  554. # [12:52] <Hixie> i wonder who came up with that
  555. # [12:52] <annevk2> Hixie, are those four separate examples or one example were the <meta> affects the preceding link?
  556. # [12:52] <othermaciej> ah, looks like it is being rewritten
  557. # [12:52] <Hixie> aboodman2: dude, we should fix that
  558. # [12:52] <Hixie> and by "we" i mean "you" :-P
  559. # [12:52] <othermaciej> <https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=20690> for those playing along at home
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  561. # [12:53] <annevk2> if we're going to have this feature can't we drop the x from the start?
  562. # [12:54] <Hixie> i told them to put the x- in so that people wouldn't think google was trying to take over http or anything
  563. # [12:55] <Hixie> i also told them they should bring it up in the httpwg
  564. # [12:55] <Hixie> dunno if they have done that yet
  565. # [12:55] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: doesn't http://c.validator.nu/all/ include http://c.validator.nu/usemap/ ?
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  567. # [12:56] <annevk2> Hixie, fair enough
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  573. # [13:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: according to code, it should. is there behavior that suggests otherwise?
  574. # [13:14] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: the about page says otherwise
  575. # [13:14] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: oops. thanks
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  577. # [13:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: fixed. thanks
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  593. # [13:48] <zcorpan_> http://www.w3.org/2007/09/19-xhtml-minutes.html#action09
  594. # [13:48] <zcorpan_> hmm, so parsing <script> as CDATA in text/html is a bug?
  595. # [13:49] <annevk2> haha
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  599. # [13:51] <Lachy_> zcorpan_, no, that doesn't appear to be what they're saying
  600. # [13:52] <Lachy_> since this mail that they're referring to is talking about XHTML http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0031
  601. # [13:52] <zcorpan_> Lachy_: "The example 'correct' code in sec. 4.8 does not work in either Firefox or IE" clearly means he tested text/html
  602. # [13:53] <Lachy_> yeah, but it's XHTML, so it shouldn't be using text/html, so that's irrelevant
  603. # [13:53] <Lachy_> it's correct without having to comment out the <![CDATA[ and ]]> markers
  604. # [13:53] <zcorpan_> so their reply should be "you're using text/html, the spec is talking about how to do it in xml", not "that's a bug in browsers that should be fixed and not documented in our spec"
  605. # [13:54] <Lachy_> yeah
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  607. # [14:01] <zcorpan_> grddl discussion a bit up is interesting -- profile isn't good enough for xhtml2
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  609. # [14:03] <hsivonen> Validator.nu shows bad-looking all-thread locking.
  610. # [14:04] * hsivonen goes investigate whether it's locking at shared IO points or something easily fixable
  611. # [14:12] <annevk2> zcorpan_, please complain when you get the reply as we consider it to be feature, not a bug
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  613. # [14:17] <zcorpan_> annevk2: i don't follow
  614. # [14:19] <hsivonen> I was a bit worried about today already being the 19th until I noticed that the minutes were a year old
  615. # [14:24] <annevk2> ooh
  616. # [14:24] <annevk2> I thought that was recent minutes discussing zcorpan_'s comments
  617. # [14:24] <annevk2> doh
  618. # [14:32] <zcorpan_> hmm i thought they were recent too
  619. # [14:33] <zcorpan_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Sep/0014.html
  620. # [14:34] <zcorpan_> (link at the bottom)
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  653. # [17:38] <zcorpan_> setAttributeNode(document.createAttribute('aB:c')) throws in webkit
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  655. # [17:40] <zcorpan_> "These methods (but not their namespaced counterparts) must compare the given argument in an ASCII case-insensitive manner when looking at HTML elements, and in a case-sensitive manner otherwise."
  656. # [17:41] <zcorpan_> hmm so getElementsByTagName('foo') should match createElementNS('http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml','FOO') ?
  657. # [17:42] <zcorpan_> doesn't it make more sense to lowercase the argument before checking
  658. # [17:42] * zcorpan_ files a bug
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  661. # [17:45] <zcorpan_> actually hmm
  662. # [17:47] <zcorpan_> webkit lowercases the argument
  663. # [17:47] <zcorpan_> which makes it impossible to look for svg camelcase elements
  664. # [17:48] <zcorpan_> i guess the specced behavior is better since it works as expected in the valid case
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  692. # [19:34] <gsnedders> jgraham: No, I wasn't actually around at that moment
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  695. # [19:41] <jgraham> gsnedders: I am not actually around at this moment
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  710. # [21:56] <gsnedders> smedero: I can say I will be arriving in Cannes at 15:02 on the Sunday
  711. # [21:57] * Joins: _ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-202-234.bredband.comhem.se)
  712. # [21:57] <smedero> gsnedders: I can say I'm still looking for help with picking up part of the tab on my flight. :-D
  713. # [21:57] * _ is now known as Guest61369
  714. # [21:58] <gsnedders> :P
  715. # [21:58] * Guest61369 is now known as zcorpan
  716. # [21:58] <gsnedders> smedero: Have you already paid for it, or not?
  717. # [21:58] <smedero> gsnedders: nope. :-/
  718. # [21:58] <smedero> sigh.
  719. # [21:59] <gsnedders> smedero: Get a train within France. Internal flights are crazily expensive.
  720. # [21:59] <smedero> hrm, okay
  721. # [21:59] <gsnedders> Also, don't go into Paris.
  722. # [21:59] <gsnedders> Get it straight from CDG, change in Lyon.
  723. # [22:00] <smedero> hrm, I had been thinking of doing something sorta like that....
  724. # [22:00] <smedero> I'll look into that route now though, thanks.
  725. # [22:02] <gsnedders> It'll take around 6 hours to do by train, but that isn't that much slower taking into account all the fun at airports
  726. # [22:03] <gsnedders> (I'm staying near Lyon for just over a week before)
  727. # [22:05] <gsnedders> So I'm just doing it in two goes
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  731. # [22:29] <gsnedders> Can anyone help me stop worrying?
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  742. # [23:10] * Lachy obviously didn't check the spec well enough
  743. # [23:11] <Lachy> re target=_blank and window.opener
  744. # [23:13] <Philip`> I looked in the part that talked about target=_blank, and the part that talked about window.opener, which was not a particularly obscure thing to think to do :-p
  745. # [23:14] <annevk2> Lachy, fun video
  746. # [23:18] <Lachy> I looked there too, but I somehow missed the bit about the opener
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  757. # Session Close: Fri Sep 19 00:00:00 2008

The end :)