/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-09-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Sep 19 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  4. # [00:01] <jgraham> gsnedders: I doubt I can :)
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  9. # [00:25] <virtuelv> this is, in every respect, somewhat depressing http://my.opera.com/operaqa/blog/2008/08/04/alexa-global-top-500-validation-research
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  18. # [01:14] <jruderman> what is the difference between 'error' and 'failure' on http://files.myopera.com/blooberry/alexa/alexavalidation.htm
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  20. # [01:17] <Philip`> I wish file.myopera.com would let me actually see the files, when I have Opera's referrer blocking switched on
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  22. # [01:18] <jgraham> jruderman: It looks like errors might be fatal problems e.g. due to character encoding issues
  23. # [01:18] <Philip`> jruderman: Looks like 'failure' means like http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mop.com
  24. # [01:19] <jruderman> ahh, that's pretty sad
  25. # [01:19] <jgraham> html5.validator.nu seems to cope fine :)
  26. # [01:21] <Hixie> did hsivonen ever release the numbers from his study?
  27. # [01:21] <Hixie> i forget
  28. # [01:21] <Hixie> i think he did
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  30. # [01:39] <gsnedders> Hixie: yes
  31. # [01:40] <Hixie> do you remember where?
  32. # [01:40] <gsnedders> Nah
  33. # [01:40] <gsnedders> That would be useful.
  34. # [01:40] <gsnedders> public-html, I _think_.
  35. # [01:41] <Philip`> That's a little vague
  36. # [01:42] * Philip` fails to remember whether he has or hasn't seen such numbers released
  37. # [01:42] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0923.html
  38. # [01:43] <Hixie> 0.87% valid pages
  39. # [01:43] <Hixie> that's what i was looking for
  40. # [01:44] <Hixie> (that's treating transitional stuff as invalid)
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  42. # [01:54] <gsnedders> Now, I want sane IDs
  43. # [01:59] <Hixie> the validation errors are stopping me from migrating right now
  44. # [02:07] <Hixie> some reporter just e-mailed me a question about html5
  45. # [02:08] <Hixie> which i replied to in detail, with links to various pages with more background information
  46. # [02:08] <Hixie> he replied back with "FWIW, I am hurrying a story and don't have time to read background materials. I want to know if this is a W3C technology."
  47. # [02:08] <Hixie> to which i felt like replying "well fuck you too"
  48. # [02:09] <othermaciej> Hixie: you need a PR agency
  49. # [02:09] <Hixie> i have one
  50. # [02:09] <Hixie> i'm sure google would be happy to do the PR for me if i let them
  51. # [02:18] <Hixie> same reporter just asked me if there was some sort of editor's draft released today
  52. # [02:18] <Hixie> i explained that the there have been eight so far today
  53. # [02:18] <Hixie> i think whatever article ends up coming out of this is going to be very confused
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  62. # [03:14] * Hixie ponders whether to bother keeping inputmode=""
  63. # [03:14] <Hixie> xforms is apparently not a stable reference point
  64. # [03:14] <Hixie> given that it changed since wf2 came out
  65. # [03:14] <Hixie> so much for persistent urls at the w3.org/TR/ space
  66. # [03:16] <Hixie> othermaciej: has there been any desire for inputmode in iPhone Safari?
  67. # [03:16] <othermaciej> what's inputmode?
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  69. # [03:18] <billyjack> othermaciej: a means to specify what input mode to put the IME into when the user is in a particular input field
  70. # [03:18] <billyjack> e.g., kanji input, or numeric input
  71. # [03:18] <othermaciej> I see
  72. # [03:18] <othermaciej> I'll ask
  73. # [03:18] <billyjack> seems like it's really only useful on handsets that don't have a full keyboard
  74. # [03:20] <billyjack> there are a couple few non-standard markup ways now for doing the same thing which are in pretty wide use
  75. # [03:20] <billyjack> as far as I know, there are no production browsers that support inputmode
  76. # [03:21] <Hixie> yeah i don't know of any either
  77. # [03:21] <Hixie> do you have any pointers for the non-standard ways?
  78. # [03:21] <billyjack> Hixie: yeah, I'll try to get the URLs now
  79. # [03:21] <Hixie> seems like the iphone would be able to use it, since it has a fully programmable keyboard
  80. # [03:21] <Hixie> cool, thanks
  81. # [03:22] <billyjack> one way is the Docomo "istyle" attribute, another is a WAP/WML thing that's used everywhere else
  82. # [03:22] <billyjack> http://www.nttdocomo.co.jp/english/service/imode/make/content/html/tag/istyle.html
  83. # [03:24] <billyjack> http://blog.trasatti.it/2005/06/formatting-input-fields-in-xhtml-mp.html
  84. # [03:25] <billyjack> http://www.developershome.com/wap/wcss/wcss_tutorial.asp?page=inputExtension2
  85. # [03:25] <billyjack> <input type="text" style="-wap-input-format: 'N'"/>
  86. # [03:26] <Hixie> cool, thanks
  87. # [03:30] <Hixie> ok i guess i'll tell people to use -wap-input-format
  88. # [03:31] <billyjack> Hixie: fwiw, the actual spec of -wap-input-format is here: http://www.wapforum.org/tech/documents/WAP-239-WCSS-20011026-a.pdf
  89. # [03:31] <billyjack> only seems to be available in PDF
  90. # [03:31] <billyjack> Opera supports that
  91. # [03:32] <Hixie> cool
  92. # [03:32] <billyjack> I think most all mobile browsers support it.
  93. # [03:32] <Hixie> yeah, definitely no point us defining our own things then
  94. # [03:33] <billyjack> yeah, mobile developers seem to be pretty happy with it
  95. # [03:33] <billyjack> though it seems overengineered to me in that it's both a way of specifying the input mode and also the microsyntax of the input
  96. # [03:35] <Hixie> i love removing things
  97. # [03:36] <Hixie> readonly="" was suspiciously easy to define when i got around to it
  98. # [03:36] <Hixie> the entire spec's discussion of "readonly" is "The readonly attribute is a boolean attribute. When specified, the element is immutable."
  99. # [03:36] <Hixie> granted, "boolean attribute" and "immutable" are both terms with underlying definitions
  100. # [03:36] <Hixie> but still
  101. # [03:36] <Hixie> ok dinner
  102. # [03:37] <Hixie> bbl
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  113. # [04:39] <billyjack> dglazkov|home: hei
  114. # [04:39] * billyjack is now known as MikeSmith
  115. # [04:39] <dglazkov|home> hey MikeSmith
  116. # [04:39] <dglazkov|home> how's W3 treating ya?
  117. # [04:40] <MikeSmith> dglazkov|home: swimmingly
  118. # [04:40] <dglazkov|home> that's good
  119. # [04:40] <MikeSmith> dglazkov|home: big congrats on your move and new job
  120. # [04:40] <dglazkov|home> MikeSmith: thanks!
  121. # [04:40] <dglazkov|home> the job is great!
  122. # [04:41] <dglazkov|home> still reeling from the move
  123. # [04:41] * dglazkov|home never in his dreams imagined he'd be hacking on WebKit full time
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  125. # [04:41] <MikeSmith> dglazkov|home: what city were you in before the move?
  126. # [04:42] <dglazkov|home> Birmingham, AL
  127. # [04:42] <MikeSmith> ah
  128. # [04:43] <MikeSmith> I lived in Montgomery when I was young. I had some second cousins in Birmingham. Do they still have the stinking paper mill place outside the city?
  129. # [04:43] * MikeSmith wonders if Hixie is subscribed to webkit-dev or knows Michael Nordman
  130. # [04:44] <MikeSmith> re: https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2008-September/004954.html
  131. # [04:47] <dglazkov|home> I know Michael Nordman
  132. # [04:47] <dglazkov|home> :)
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  134. # [04:57] <dglazkov|home> MikeSmith: cool, Montgomery, wow!
  135. # [04:57] <dglazkov|home> I don't think the paper mill is there
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  137. # [05:12] <MikeSmith> dglazkov|home: seems like Michael might find it worthwhile to come on #whatwg to talk about the appcache stuff
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  139. # [05:13] <MikeSmith> Though dunno of course if he's a IRC-liker or not
  140. # [05:14] <MikeSmith> oh
  141. # [05:14] * MikeSmith sees michaeln on the channel
  142. # [05:14] <MikeSmith> geez, I'll shutup now and quit being such goddamn busybody
  143. # [05:15] * MikeSmith kicks himself
  144. # [05:19] * MikeSmith writes 937th note to himself to mind his own business
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  159. # [06:36] <Hixie> so the article that the guy who was e-mailing earlier was writing is out now
  160. # [06:36] <Hixie> http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/09/18/Canvas_set_to_boost_AJAX_1.html
  161. # [06:36] <Hixie> it has fewer mistakes than i would have expected given the rush the guy was apparently in
  162. # [06:37] <Hixie> but it still gets one of the key points completely backwards
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  174. # [07:15] * MikeSmith reads http://webkit.org/blog/214/introducing-squirrelfish-extreme/
  175. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> polymorphic inline caching
  176. # [07:18] <MikeSmith> that sounds pretty useful, whatever that is
  177. # [07:18] <othermaciej> it is :-)
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  179. # [07:19] <MikeSmith> JS learning from Self
  180. # [07:19] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: great writeup
  181. # [07:20] <roc> a text editor written in canvas???
  182. # [07:20] <othermaciej> roc: what you say?
  183. # [07:20] <roc> sorry, reading Hixie's URL above
  184. # [07:20] <roc> "Galbraith touted a responsive text editor he co-developed that was implemented in JavaScript entirely in Canvas and features syntax highlighting."
  185. # [07:22] <roc> Hixie: actually ... technically, "retained image" is kinda accurate for canvas
  186. # [07:22] <MikeSmith> ah, Paul Krill
  187. # [07:22] <roc> I could see that being a reasonable way to describe the idea that the canvas remembers its contents, as opposed to WM_PAINT-style event-driven application painting
  188. # [07:23] <othermaciej> roc: wow, that's crazy
  189. # [07:23] <MikeSmith> the Paul Krill byline maybe explains a lot about Hixie's earlier comments
  190. # [07:23] <roc> I hope something was lost in translation
  191. # [07:24] <MikeSmith> roc: I very much suspect it was
  192. # [07:25] <roc> since you can't get text metrics from canvas, I think writing an editor using it is completely impossible
  193. # [07:25] <othermaciej> maybe he draws the text by hand
  194. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> heh.. WREC is a nice acronym
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  196. # [07:33] <Hixie> MikeSmith: howcome likes to talk about "w3c wreck-ommendation stage"
  197. # [07:34] <othermaciej> I hope one day HTML5 can be a full W3C WREC
  198. # [07:34] <Hixie> 2022
  199. # [07:34] <Hixie> :-)
  200. # [07:39] * BenMillard is reminded of Hixie's "SVG Tiny 1.2 in Candidate Wreckommendation stage": http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1155235213&count=1
  201. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> Hixie: :p
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  210. # [08:02] <hsivonen> for better PR engagements, we need a Scott McCloud comic about HTML5
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  218. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> I think we need Ralph Steadman for HTML5
  219. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ↑
  220. # [08:33] * hsivonen googles
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  226. # [08:52] <zcorpan_> Hixie: from http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/#html
  227. # [08:52] <zcorpan_> The inputmode attribute is supported; however,
  228. # [08:52] <zcorpan_> its implementation is platform-dependant
  229. # [08:52] <zcorpan_> it is not enabled by default
  230. # [08:52] <zcorpan_> it is not in the Opera 9.5 Desktop version
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  232. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: do you know if inputmode support in Opera actually implemented on any particular devices?
  233. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> maybe on some S60 devices in Opera 9.5?
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  235. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> it seems like it would be trivial to enable support for it on any browser/device combination that already supports -wap-input-format
  236. # [09:09] * hsivonen wonders if Opera 9.5 for S60 is still coming or canceled
  237. # [09:09] * MikeSmith thought it had already been released
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  239. # [09:09] <hsivonen> wow
  240. # [09:10] * hsivonen goes check
  241. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://www.opera.com/products/mobile/
  242. # [09:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: as far as I can tell, S60 is stuck at Opera 8.65
  243. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> ah
  244. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> I see the 9.5 beta is Windows Mobile only
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  246. # [09:13] <hsivonen> the browser situation on S60 sucks ATM
  247. # [09:13] <hsivonen> both Nokia and Opera haven't updated their offerings in a long time
  248. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> yeah, no public word of any progress at all on an updated Webkit browser for S60
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  250. # [09:14] <hsivonen> someone seems to be working on Gecko for S60, but it's going to be a long, long road for one guy to port it over
  251. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> the Fennec product-dev team is not targeting S60 at all?
  252. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> seems like a decent business opportunity from any third-party company that wanted to come in a provide a better browser for S60
  253. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> A Webkit-based browser to displace the Nokia one, I mean
  254. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> or really anything
  255. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> kind of surprised that Opera has exploited that more
  256. # [09:18] <hsivonen> even though S60 is behind the times, I find I'm using my phone more often than my N800
  257. # [09:19] <hsivonen> the reason is that Fennec is so far unusable on N800 (no release with soft keyboard support)
  258. # [09:19] <hsivonen> and MicroB gives a bogus YSoD on Planet Intertwingly
  259. # [09:19] <hsivonen> and Planet Intertwingly is one of my favorite mobile destinations
  260. # [09:20] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g230225084.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  261. # [09:20] <hsivonen> it works in Opera 8.65 on S60. The Nokia browser gets the character encoding wrong
  262. # [09:20] <virtuelv> hsivonen: and you can't live with Opera Mini in the meantime?
  263. # [09:21] <hsivonen> what sucks about Opera 8.65 on Planet Intertwingly is the lack of domcontentloaded event
  264. # [09:21] <hsivonen> virtuelv: it doesn't let me switch between SSR and desktop mode with one button without reload
  265. # [09:21] <hsivonen> virtuelv: so no
  266. # [09:21] <hsivonen> virtuelv: Mini requires crawling through menus and reloading
  267. # [09:22] <virtuelv> I come to never ever use desktop mode
  268. # [09:23] <hsivonen> virtuelv: the few tables that are actually data tables instead of layout tables look better in the desktop mode
  269. # [09:24] * hsivonen notices that Opera has 7 builds for Windows Mobile
  270. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> virtuelv: doesn't Opera 9.5 mobile have adaptive zooming in desktop mode?
  271. # [09:27] <hsivonen> the banner advertising Opera Mobile 9 coming soon was pulled about a year ago, it seems
  272. # [09:28] <virtuelv> MikeSmith: afaik, yes, http://www.opera.com/products/mobile/features/
  273. # [09:29] <virtuelv> I detest smartphones for a number of reasons, and windows mobile even more for a bunch of different reasons, so I haven't actually tested 9.5 mobile much yet
  274. # [09:29] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-195-166.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  275. # [09:33] * Joins: Mau`werk (n=ano@a80-100-71-209.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  276. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> virtuelv: I think you might kinda like some of the HTC devices at least
  277. # [09:41] <virtuelv> MikeSmith: I have seen the devices, and although their outward physical appearance is nice I can't stand the horrid slowness, subpar usability, sucky battery life and the abomination that is WM
  278. # [09:43] <virtuelv> the usability problems being a consequence of windows
  279. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> yeah
  280. # [09:44] <virtuelv> besides, any phone that uses more than five seconds to boot == fail
  281. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> well, we will soon have another OS running on an HTC device that we can use for comparison purposes
  282. # [09:45] <virtuelv> MikeSmith: I'm not sure the Linux on phone situation is much better
  283. # [09:46] <virtuelv> nor do I believe that Android will save us all
  284. # [09:47] <hsivonen> on Android, all apps are equal but all rendering engines aren't
  285. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> Android will at least add some competition and help raise the bar on user expectations about what's possible/usable on a mobile handset
  286. # [09:48] <virtuelv> the failing here is a far bigger one than the browser engine
  287. # [09:48] <virtuelv> in their insane rush to make the phone a general-purpose computing design, everyone seems to have forgotten the primary objective of a phone: the ability to make phone calls
  288. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> nope
  289. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> that's not the primary purpose for me at all
  290. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> the primary purpose of my handset for me is mobile data services
  291. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> by a longshot
  292. # [09:49] <virtuelv> for me, it still is, together with the ability to send text messages
  293. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> well, I'm blessed to live in a part of the world where we have real SMTP/MIME e-mail clients on handsets
  294. # [09:50] <hsivonen> hmm. I need some kind of Jetty thread pools for dummies guide...
  295. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> so I couldn't care less about text messages
  296. # [09:50] <doublec> email is too slow, text is instant. that's the attraction.
  297. # [09:50] <virtuelv> MikeSmith: so you never feel the need to send just "Ok", or "I'm there in fifteen minutes"?
  298. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> doublec: email on handsets in Japanese is instant
  299. # [09:51] <virtuelv> last phone I bought was a non-smartphone from Sony Ericsson
  300. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> we use email the same way most people use text messages
  301. # [09:51] <virtuelv> except that it tries to be a smartphone-in-disguise
  302. # [09:51] <doublec> interesting
  303. # [09:51] <virtuelv> booting it takes 20 seconds
  304. # [09:51] <doublec> do they have some non-polling method of getting it?
  305. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> virtuelv: yeah, I send email
  306. # [09:51] <virtuelv> MikeSmith: so basically empty e-mails with a subject?
  307. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> empty subject with a body usually
  308. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> and I use it when I want to say, I'll be there in 2 minutes
  309. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> or 1 minute
  310. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> or when I want to send somebody a URL with my exact GPS location
  311. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> so they know where to meet me
  312. # [09:53] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: what's the spam situation with received email?
  313. # [09:53] <hsivonen> my IMAP inbox is too big and spammy for Nokia's S60 email client
  314. # [09:54] <hsivonen> so my only mobile email use case is sending photos as attachments to an IRC bot
  315. # [09:54] <hsivonen> SMS still going strong
  316. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> I used to get very little spam on my handset e-mail
  317. # [09:54] <hsivonen> MMS: FAIL
  318. # [09:54] <doublec> same here, my s60 device can't handle my imap at all
  319. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> I'm getting more lately
  320. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> but I'm sure in general spam will become as big a problem with mobile e-mail as it everywhere else
  321. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> doublec: yeah, non-polling
  322. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> carries push out notifications based on mailbox events
  323. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> to set the "message waiting" indicator on the handset
  324. # [09:56] <virtuelv> and with SMS spam is an almost inexistent problem
  325. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> anyway, the real important this as far as user experience on handsets is integration among the apps
  326. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> e.g., the ability to open a browser while you're in the messaging client
  327. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> or the ability to invoke an app to get your lat/lon location and turn it into a URL and automatically put it in a message and send it to somebody
  328. # [10:01] <hsivonen> having a Chrome-like process per browser view thing going on mobile would be good too
  329. # [10:01] <hsivonen> the browsers are unstable
  330. # [10:01] <hsivonen> and Google turns to Java for stuff like GMM
  331. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> in general apps on handsets are unstable
  332. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> often, if one app crashes the whole handset has to reset
  333. # [10:04] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  334. # [10:04] <hsivonen> at least S60 is pretty good at recoving from browser OOM crashes
  335. # [10:04] <hsivonen> recovering
  336. # [10:09] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote closed the connection)
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  338. # [10:18] <hendry> hsivonen: are you just using the regular 3 year old S60 browser on your device?
  339. # [10:18] <hsivonen> hendry: yes.
  340. # [10:19] <hsivonen> hendry: are there alternatives?
  341. # [10:19] <hendry> hsivonen: opera :)
  342. # [10:19] <hsivonen> hendry: oh, I thought you asked what "S60 Browser" I used.
  343. # [10:20] <hsivonen> hendry: yeah, I use Opera for stuff other than the logs of this channel
  344. # [10:21] <hsivonen> (Nokia's S60 Browser has an annoyingly generic name)
  345. # [10:21] <hsivonen> probably on purpose
  346. # [10:22] <hendry> hsivonen: you use opera mini?
  347. # [10:22] <hsivonen> hendry: I don't
  348. # [10:23] * Quits: starjive (i=beos@213-66-217-32-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  349. # [10:25] <hsivonen> ah. the paradox of choice with Jetty thread pools
  350. # [10:26] <hendry> hsivonen: we're running JS tests on mobiles over at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mwts/2008Sep/0003.html
  351. # [10:26] <hendry> http://flickr.com/photos/hendry/2867376431/ my Thinkpad is 10x faster than my 'ipod touch'
  352. # [10:31] * hsivonen finds http://www-sop.inria.fr/mimosa/scheme2js/
  353. # [10:51] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
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  359. # [11:17] * Hixie checks in r2222
  360. # [11:17] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@24.130.9.53) (Client Quit)
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  363. # [11:21] <annevk2> Hixie, does it have the <magic-fairy> tag?
  364. # [11:21] <annevk2> seems to be something more boring :)
  365. # [11:23] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  366. # [11:26] <Hixie> nn
  367. # [11:27] <zcorpan_> Hixie: we'd like to extend inputmode with e.g. "number"
  368. # [11:28] <zcorpan_> Hixie: so that on a mobile you can use the number input by default instead of tripletap
  369. # [11:28] <annevk2> Hixie, image should also be barred from contraint validation
  370. # [11:28] * Quits: Thezilch (n=fuz007@cpe-76-171-111-7.socal.res.rr.com) (Connection timed out)
  371. # [11:28] <annevk2> zcorpan_, doesn't it already have that?
  372. # [11:29] <zcorpan_> annevk2: does it?
  373. # [11:29] * annevk2 thought it did
  374. # [11:29] <zcorpan_> not afaict
  375. # [11:31] <annevk2> "latin digits"
  376. # [11:32] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  377. # [11:34] <zcorpan_> aha
  378. # [11:34] <zcorpan_> ok
  379. # [11:38] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  380. # [11:38] <hsivonen> I wonder if I'm just bad at googling or if Jetty thread pool configuration is a domain with no canned recipe
  381. # [11:39] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.121.246)
  382. # [11:39] <hsivonen> I'd expect there to be a function that yields to optimal max thread pool size given some measurable inputs
  383. # [11:40] <annevk2> zcorpan_, if nobody implements this though something like "number" might be better
  384. # [11:40] <annevk2> hsivonen, you could try asking questions on the thing from Joel Spolsky
  385. # [11:40] <hsivonen> annevk2: stack overflow?
  386. # [11:41] <virtuelv> hsivonen: yes
  387. # [11:41] <virtuelv> registration's a breeze, openid all the way
  388. # [11:42] <hsivonen> I like the idea of OpenID
  389. # [11:42] <hsivonen> the problem is the paradox of choice with providers
  390. # [11:42] <virtuelv> I am my own
  391. # [11:43] <hendry> openid2 perl implementation sucks too
  392. # [11:44] <hsivonen> I want to make http://hsivonen.iki.fi/ my OpenID, but I need to move it to a server that is better isolated from other users to feel secure about doing that
  393. # [11:47] * weinig is now known as weinig|zZz
  394. # [11:48] <annevk2> you won't do banking with it ;)
  395. # [11:54] <virtuelv> hsivonen: so delegate the ID to some other provider
  396. # [11:56] <hsivonen> virtuelv: the threat model is that another user manages to run some utterly broken PHP that allows a cross-user exploit to bootstrap and a blackhat changes hsivonen.iki.fi to delegate to a bogus provider
  397. # [11:56] <virtuelv> yeah, I see your point
  398. # [11:56] * Joins: eseidel_ (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  399. # [11:56] <virtuelv> slicehost has vps hosting
  400. # [11:57] <hsivonen> I already have a couple of VMs that are private to me
  401. # [11:57] <hsivonen> it's just that hsivonen.iki.fi has legacy scripts that are hard to move
  402. # [12:01] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@24.130.9.53) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  403. # [12:02] <hsivonen> as for using an external provider (regardless of delegation) bothers me, because I don't understand their business model
  404. # [12:02] <hsivonen> and the obvious business model is selling data obtained by observing user behavior
  405. # [12:03] <hsivonen> I wish iki.fi became an OpenID provider
  406. # [12:03] <hsivonen> (and an XMPP provider too)
  407. # [12:03] <hsivonen> in fact, becoming an OpenID provider would fit the mission of iki.fi perfectly
  408. # [12:04] <hsivonen> the trouble is getting someone to implement and maintain stuff
  409. # [12:04] <hsivonen> (the general trouble with associations without paid staff)
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  415. # [13:03] <annevk2> hsivonen, seems <input size> is conforming again?
  416. # [13:04] <annevk2> hsivonen, <input inputmode="latin digits x"> gives "Bad value latin digits x for attribute inputmode on element input: Not an absolute IRI."
  417. # [13:05] <hsivonen> annevk2: that's because x isn't an absolute IRI
  418. # [13:05] <hsivonen> and inputmode didn't seem to be worth optmizing UI for
  419. # [13:06] <zcorpan_> the pubnotes for the next WD will be interesting
  420. # [13:06] <hsivonen> in what way?
  421. # [13:06] <zcorpan_> i guess it'll list differences between wf2 and html5
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  424. # [13:19] <hsivonen> and inputmode didn't seem to be worth optmizing UI for
  425. # [13:22] <annevk2> hsivonen, inputmode doesn't take IRIs?
  426. # [13:22] <annevk2> or does it? hmm
  427. # [13:23] <annevk2> but yeah, don't bother with it
  428. # [13:23] <hsivonen> annevk2: it does (or did at least)
  429. # [13:24] <hsivonen> annevk2: it was defined by reference to XForms
  430. # [13:24] <hsivonen> annevk2: in XForms, if a token does not contain a colon, it is a built-in token
  431. # [13:24] <hsivonen> annevk2: if a token does contain a colon, it is an absolute IRI identifying a custom input method
  432. # [13:34] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  433. # [13:36] <hdh> hsivonen: using v.nu, how do I override the doctype like http://qa-dev.w3.org/wmvs/HEAD/ can?
  434. # [13:37] <zcorpan_> hdh: change the preset
  435. # [13:38] <hdh> it still report Error: Legacy doctype
  436. # [13:38] <hsivonen> hdh: use the parser pop-up on the generic facet
  437. # [13:39] <hdh> same
  438. # [13:39] <hsivonen> hdh: which doctype?
  439. # [13:39] <zcorpan_> what's your doctype?
  440. # [13:40] <hdh> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
  441. # [13:40] <hsivonen> hdh: it supports only HTML5, HTML 4.01 Strict and Transitional doctypes
  442. # [13:40] <hsivonen> hdh: that's not allowed in text/html
  443. # [13:40] <hdh> I want to replicate http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/09/top-500-html5-validity.html
  444. # [13:41] <hsivonen> hdh: the public validator.nu instance doesn't support legacy doctypes other than HTML 4.01 Strict/Transitional
  445. # [13:42] <hsivonen> hdh: however, the parser has a survey mode that suppresses doctype-related tree builder-level errors
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  465. # [16:23] <hsivonen> it tooks me quite a while to figure out that the spec now has two h4 elements saying "The body element"
  466. # [16:23] <hsivonen> which broke my spec scraper
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  468. # [16:27] <zcorpan_> the second heading is pretty confusing too
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  471. # [16:28] <zcorpan_> it suggests that the body element is obsolete
  472. # [16:30] <zcorpan_> Hixie: would be clearer if it said "Attributes on the body element"
  473. # [16:32] * Joins: eric (n=~eric@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
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  476. # [16:33] <hsivonen> Hixie: is there any chance of putting presence constraints of elements-specific attributes in parentheses after the attribute
  477. # [16:33] <hsivonen> ?
  478. # [16:34] * eric is now known as ericc
  479. # [16:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: there used to be "(required)"
  480. # [16:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: and then you took that out instead of putting the more complex requirements in
  481. # [16:37] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: how would that look for the input element?
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  483. # [16:38] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: good point. but for other elements it should be feasible
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  485. # [16:39] <hsivonen> in the case of input, it might be a good idea to have an element-level h4 for each input type=foo
  486. # [16:40] <zcorpan_> i guess that makes sense
  487. # [16:41] <annevk2> they are now h6
  488. # [16:42] * hsivonen files a spec RFE
  489. # [16:42] <zcorpan_> though it would look weird in the toc
  490. # [16:43] <Philip`> You could fix that in the TOC generator
  491. # [16:45] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  492. # [16:46] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: i think you should instead write code that figures out exactly which attributes are missing :P
  493. # [16:46] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I'm still waiting for oNVDL upstream to release that code
  494. # [16:47] <zcorpan_> ok
  495. # [16:48] <hsivonen> I wish oNVDL upstream had a publicly readable version control system so that I could go get code even when the maintainer is too busy to create a release
  496. # [16:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: seems pretty silly that they don't
  497. # [16:50] <MikeSmith> I'd wonder what version-control system they're using
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  501. # [17:13] <gsnedders> I'm sleepy.
  502. # [17:14] <gsnedders> But a bit less worried.
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  528. # [18:42] <takkaria> all I really want to know if when all these clever JS speedups will make it to other languages
  529. # [18:49] <hsivonen> takkaria: just compile your stuff into JS :-)
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  535. # [19:28] <Philip`> takkaria: Maybe it'll happen when those other languages have half a dozen competing implementations, each critically relied on by major software projects, with very little evolution of the language itself to take up the developers' time
  536. # [19:29] <Philip`> and when there's a billion users who are going to be directly affected by the language's performance
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  538. # [19:54] <jgraham> Philip`: I wonder if I can convince anyone that javascript is the new C on the basis that it is becoming fast (for a dynamic language) but requires difficult and not entirely effective hacks to get the class-based object model that mainstream programmers like
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  548. # [21:02] <Hixie> hsivonen: no, there's no chance because the constraints are far too complicated to put normatively into the summary
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  552. # [21:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: :-(
  553. # [21:18] <Hixie> there are very few attributes for which the requirements, if different than "optional", are anywhere near as simple as "required".
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  556. # [21:20] <hsivonen> in the machine-detectable cases the condition is rather simple, though
  557. # [21:23] <Hixie> do you have a list of the attributes whose requirement is not "optional"?
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  559. # [21:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: I can produce a list
  560. # [21:27] <Hixie> i'd be curious to see it, maybe i'm wrong about how easy it would be
  561. # [21:27] <Hixie> if you're producing a list, the ideal list would be a list of all attributes and their requirement constraint
  562. # [21:28] <hsivonen> do you mean listing optional attributes as well?
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  564. # [21:30] <Hixie> if that's easy
  565. # [21:30] <Hixie> otherwise don't worry
  566. # [21:30] <Hixie> whatever you can generate
  567. # [21:30] <Hixie> i'm just looking for an overview
  568. # [21:30] <Hixie> to get a feel of the place, as it were
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  570. # [21:48] <Hixie> hsivonen: if i move type="" attribute values up to the element level, what happens to the many commen attribute sections?
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  572. # [21:51] <Hixie> "Most specs get grossly outdated within a few days of publication on the TR page."
  573. # [21:51] <Hixie> some are outdated even before they get published
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  579. # [22:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: The common things aren't that common if you treat value/min/max as distinct when they differ in datatype
  580. # [22:04] <annevk2> shepazu, you're pointing to a member only thread on a public list
  581. # [22:14] <hsivonen> host html5.validator.nu
  582. # [22:14] <hsivonen> doh
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  584. # [22:16] <hsivonen> html5.validator.nu is now isolated from the complex interface and parse tree
  585. # [22:17] <hsivonen> It is now on a VM that can be scaled up and down
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  589. # [22:29] <hsivonen> I'm curious about the implementation of xen upflexing
  590. # [22:30] <hsivonen> one would think they need to be able to migrate live VMs across real servers
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  593. # [23:05] * hsivonen reads a paper about live Xen migration. cool stuff.
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  598. # [23:37] <Hixie> hsivonen: value/min/max?
  599. # [23:37] <Hixie> hsivonen: there's like a dozen common attributes. value is one of them (and is already defined as such)
  600. # [23:37] <Hixie> hsivonen: not to mention the DOM attributes most of which are only defined once
  601. # [23:39] <hsivonen> I suppose those could go into a common definition section
  602. # [23:40] <hsivonen> anyway, seeing the applicable attributes per type sate would be more readable than the table
  603. # [23:42] <Hixie> the applicable attributes are already listed per type state
  604. # [23:42] <Hixie> the table is non-normative
  605. # [23:42] <Hixie> i only added it to please anne
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  608. # Session Close: Sat Sep 20 00:00:00 2008

The end :)