/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-09-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Sep 22 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:22] <Hixie> anyone got a video i could use to demo <video>?
  7. # [00:23] <Hixie> i tried using something from my media library but i can't get it to work, even in safari
  8. # [00:25] <hendry> Hixie: i have lots of video OGGs on http://video.natalian.org/ you're welcome to take
  9. # [00:26] <hendry> Hixie: though the test one I use http://video.natalian.org/test/sample.ogg is pretty boring
  10. # [00:27] <roc> Chris's page has some
  11. # [00:29] <Hixie> cool
  12. # [00:31] <roc> http://www.double.co.nz/video_test/
  13. # [00:42] <annevk2> http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/new-computer
  14. # [00:43] <annevk2> (stole from howcome, not sure where the original is)
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  16. # [00:45] <annevk2> Hixie, btw, will you reinstate those demos once the presentation has been given?
  17. # [00:59] <Hixie> my plan is to write them as i'm giving the presentation
  18. # [01:00] <takkaria> where is the presentation?
  19. # [01:01] <Hixie> it's an internal google thing
  20. # [01:01] <Hixie> annevk2: is <video> in any released version of opera?
  21. # [01:03] <annevk2> just experimental builds so far: http://labs.opera.com/downloads/
  22. # [01:04] <annevk2> Hixie, well, I meant the one you removed earlier today (regarding <canvas>)
  23. # [01:05] <Hixie> right
  24. # [01:05] <Hixie> my plan is to write it during the presentation
  25. # [01:05] <annevk2> doh
  26. # [01:05] <Hixie> the presentation is in less than 24 hours, so they'll be up soon :-P
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  36. # [01:09] * Hixie tries getting ogg working in safari
  37. # [01:10] <nessy> using xiphqt?
  38. # [01:10] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  39. # [01:11] <Hixie> yeah
  40. # [01:11] <Hixie> actually i'm having trouble getting safari to play video of any kind
  41. # [01:11] <Hixie> i wonder if my quicktime is broken or something
  42. # [01:11] <Hixie> it doesn't even work on apple.com
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  47. # [01:30] <nessy> hmm
  48. # [01:33] <nessy> http://www.double.co.nz/video_test/test3.html works in my safari
  49. # [01:35] <nessy> running safari 3.1.2 on OS X 10.5.4 with XiphQT 0.1.8
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  51. # [01:49] <Hixie> my quicktime is clearly borked
  52. # [01:54] <Hixie> well
  53. # [01:54] <Hixie> <video> in firefox has interesting bugs
  54. # [01:54] <Hixie> such as not stopping when you reload :-
  55. # [01:54] <Hixie> |
  56. # [01:55] <gavin> known issue!
  57. # [01:55] <gavin> (449096)
  58. # [01:58] <Hixie> good to know :-)
  59. # [02:02] <Hixie> hmm
  60. # [02:02] <Hixie> no ontimeupdate?
  61. # [02:03] <Hixie> oh well
  62. # [02:03] <gavin> yeah looks like it isn't implemented
  63. # [02:03] <gavin> don't see any bugs filed
  64. # [02:04] <gavin> ah, looks like 449154 coers it
  65. # [02:04] <gavin> or part of it, at least
  66. # [02:05] <gavin> along with 449159
  67. # [02:05] <Hixie> timeupdate should fire basically continuously
  68. # [02:05] <Hixie> doesn't seem to be a bug about that
  69. # [02:05] <Hixie> basically timeupdate fires whenever the clock should change
  70. # [02:05] <gavin> oh...
  71. # [02:05] <Hixie> playback, seeking, pausing, etc
  72. # [02:05] <gavin> those bugs only do it for seeking
  73. # [02:05] <Hixie> yeah
  74. # [02:06] <Hixie> we really need to start making a test suite for html5
  75. # [02:10] <doublec> Hixie, why does timeupdate get fired continuously?
  76. # [02:10] <doublec> "The current playback position changed in an interesting way, for example discontinuously. "
  77. # [02:10] <doublec> that doesn't read continuously to me
  78. # [02:11] <doublec> is the intent to really fire it when the clock changes for any reason, including playback?
  79. # [02:11] <Hixie> it
  80. # [02:11] <Hixie> er
  81. # [02:11] <Hixie> it's step 4 of "When the current playback position of a media element changes (e.g. due to playback or seeking)"
  82. # [02:11] <doublec> ie, at the framerate?
  83. # [02:11] <Hixie> which i just noticed is in the wrong section
  84. # [02:12] <Hixie> the idea is that you can update the clock accurately using just one event
  85. # [02:12] <Hixie> so it is precise when seeking, paused, etc, and also updates while playing
  86. # [02:13] <doublec> oh, it's in cue ranges
  87. # [02:13] <doublec> I've ignored that section since apple have been wanting changes
  88. # [02:15] <doublec> (by 'ignore' i mean not made it a priority)
  89. # [02:16] <Hixie> yeah, feedback is building up. I have requests to look at video, offline caching, messageports, and notifications "asap"
  90. # [02:17] <Hixie> need to get this forms thing done
  91. # [02:17] <doublec> might want to change the description of the timeupdate event since it really gets fired whenever the playback position changes
  92. # [02:17] <doublec> rather than just in interesting ways
  93. # [02:17] <Hixie> good idea
  94. # [02:17] <doublec> heh, I don't know how you keep up - everyone wants everything asap :)
  95. # [02:18] <Hixie> though arguably the video itself playing is interesting :-P
  96. # [02:18] <doublec> haha, true
  97. # [02:18] <doublec> depends on the video
  98. # [02:18] <Hixie> re feedback -- eh, usually it's not so bad. it's just that the forms stuff is a long-term project, so things build up.
  99. # [02:18] <Hixie> and pretty much every browser vendor is in the part of their cycle where they're implementing stuff, so they're all interested in getting things changed
  100. # [02:19] <Hixie> s/they/you/ :-)
  101. # [02:19] <doublec> :)
  102. # [02:25] <Hixie> is playbackRate implemented?
  103. # [02:25] <Hixie> hmm
  104. # [02:25] <Hixie> can i ask you a favour?
  105. # [02:25] <Hixie> any chance you could remove the unimplemented items from the idl before you ship?
  106. # [02:26] <Hixie> that way people can do things like if ('totalBytes' in video) { ... } to work around limitations in each implementation
  107. # [02:30] <doublec> Hixie, yes, good idea
  108. # [02:30] <doublec> playbackRate is not implemented in the Ogg backend
  109. # [02:30] <doublec> it is in the gstreamer one
  110. # [02:30] * Hixie discovers the looping attributes k
  111. # [02:30] <Hixie> er
  112. # [02:30] <Hixie> what's the syntax you used for the looping attributes?
  113. # [02:31] <doublec> loopend, loopstart, etc
  114. # [02:31] <doublec> not implemented though
  115. # [02:31] <Hixie> ah ok
  116. # [02:31] <Hixie> i meant the value syntax
  117. # [02:31] <Hixie> but if they're not implemented, n/a :-)
  118. # [02:31] <doublec> What does apple do for the value syntax?
  119. # [02:31] <Hixie> no idea
  120. # [02:31] <Hixie> can't get quicktime to work in safari at all
  121. # [02:31] <Hixie> even on apple.com with the quicktime plugin
  122. # [02:32] <doublec> I was just going for a value in seconds for now
  123. # [02:32] <Hixie> something's borked with my install
  124. # [02:32] <Hixie> yeah, a floating point number seems reasonable
  125. # [02:32] <Hixie> i expect i'll make the following be allowed: 7.24 7.24s 4m7.24s 1h4m7.24s
  126. # [02:33] <Hixie> i need to define the parsing model soon though before we end up with a legacy to deal with
  127. # [02:33] <doublec> sounds reasonable
  128. # [02:34] <Hixie> found another bug for you -- if you pause video, go to another page, and go back, it starts playing
  129. # [02:35] <doublec> thanks, I'll add it to the list
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  131. # [02:38] <doublec> bug 456316
  132. # [02:39] <Hixie> is there a way to seek implemented? currentTime = 0 doesn't seem to work
  133. # [02:40] <doublec> bug 449159 fixes that. It's just got a couple of review comments to get fixed up and it'll be in.
  134. # [02:41] <doublec> Ogg and seeking aren't made for each other
  135. # [02:41] <Hixie> heh
  136. # [02:41] <Hixie> k
  137. # [02:41] <doublec> Neither is doing stuff like finding the duration
  138. # [02:42] <doublec> Ogg supports 'chained' files. You can concatenate ogg files together and they play as if it was one
  139. # [02:42] <doublec> which means framerate, size, etc can change during playback
  140. # [02:42] <doublec> And duration has to be computed
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  143. # [02:47] <Hixie> that sounds... painful
  144. # [02:47] <doublec> computing duration is, it's crazy
  145. # [02:48] <doublec> the library I'm using doesn't support chained oggs at the moment so I at least don't have to worry about framerate, codec changes, etc midstream
  146. # [02:48] <doublec> but it's needed for things like icecast to work
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  148. # [03:00] <Hixie> hey will you look at that i totally forgot to check for cross-domain access in the media features
  149. # [03:04] <Hixie> and new Audio() doesn't work in firefox, it seems
  150. # [03:04] <Hixie> and Opera loads the MP3 but doesn't play it...
  151. # [03:04] <Hixie> maybe I shouldn't demo new Audio().
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  153. # [03:07] <doublec> bug 454971 is new Audio()
  154. # [03:07] <doublec> it's all ready to land
  155. # [03:07] <doublec> I'll use it in my 8080 emulator when it lands
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  160. # [04:25] <doublec> If media file is currently in the midst of a seek operation, and a 'play' or 'pause' or another 'seek' is requested, what should happen?
  161. # [04:26] <othermaciej> it should be as if the play, pause or seek had been done after the first completed
  162. # [04:26] <othermaciej> IMO
  163. # [04:26] <othermaciej> (not sure if the spec says that)
  164. # [04:27] <doublec> What if they choose to seek, the seek is in operation ,they then choose to seek again, and again, then play, then pause, then seek, etc
  165. # [04:27] <doublec> should it stack them up?
  166. # [04:28] <othermaciej> it should be as if each completed in order, but since seek is absolute, not relative, right?
  167. # [04:28] <othermaciej> so it makes no difference whether you cancel the pending seek or not
  168. # [04:28] <othermaciej> though obviously play/pause should not cancel seek, just affect the play state once the seek completes
  169. # [04:29] <othermaciej> Hixie: so I am curious why you are preparing all these demos of HTML5 features working in browsers
  170. # [04:29] <othermaciej> Hixie: presentation coming up?
  171. # [04:32] <roc> I think he said it was a Google presentation
  172. # [04:32] <roc> i.e. within Google
  173. # [04:33] <othermaciej> I would go if it is one of the open-to-the-public kind
  174. # [04:33] * othermaciej <3s HTML5
  175. # [04:34] <Hixie> yeah, giving a demo on monday
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  177. # [04:35] <roc> doublec: I think that the last seek request and the last play/pause request should be remembered and applied
  178. # [04:35] <othermaciej> Hixie: would it be OK if I borrowed your demos for a presentation I am supposed to give on HTML5 at Apple?
  179. # [04:35] <Hixie> sure
  180. # [04:37] <Hixie> doublec: send mail, and i'll fix the spec to handle the case where you start seeking while seeking is true
  181. # [04:37] <othermaciej> Hixie: we have some demos from WWDC that maybe I could share
  182. # [04:37] <doublec> roc: so v.seek(1); v.seek(2); v.seek(3); will have different hehaviour depending on timing?
  183. # [04:37] <othermaciej> Hixie: though only tested in Safari I think
  184. # [04:37] <othermaciej> like a calendar app that uses both Database storage and LocalStorage
  185. # [04:37] <Hixie> doublec: as far as i can tell, play() and pause() are already well-defined (they're orthogonal to seeking)
  186. # [04:37] <othermaciej> though I guess it's probably too late for me to get them to you for a Monday preso
  187. # [04:38] <Hixie> othermaciej: my plan is to write all the demos on the fly during the presentation
  188. # [04:38] <othermaciej> also have some sexy video demos that include compositing and transforms
  189. # [04:38] <Hixie> othermaciej: (i have no slides)
  190. # [04:38] <Hixie> othermaciej: so they're all pretty small and self-contained
  191. # [04:38] <othermaciej> Hixie: very cool
  192. # [04:39] <othermaciej> ours are fancy
  193. # [04:39] <othermaciej> you know how Apple gets
  194. # [04:39] <Hixie> hehe
  195. # [04:39] <doublec> 'write all the demos on the fly' that's brave :)
  196. # [04:39] <Hixie> well
  197. # [04:39] <Hixie> i'm writing them first
  198. # [04:39] <Hixie> and will print them out :-)
  199. # [04:39] <Hixie> and type them in on the fly :-)
  200. # [04:39] <Hixie> they're all pre-debugged, hence all this work today :-)
  201. # [04:39] <roc> just prerecord your editing session
  202. # [04:40] <roc> then do like lip-syncing, but with your keybaord
  203. # [04:40] <gavin> heh
  204. # [04:40] <Hixie> i think that's what this presentation is going to be -- me recording my editing session :-)
  205. # [04:43] <roc> doublec: yeah I guess, but not really very different behaviour. At some point the video will seek to time 3 and then play from there
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  213. # [05:08] <Hixie> i think microsoft broke drag-and-drop with IE8beta23
  214. # [05:09] <Hixie> 2
  215. # [05:09] <Hixie> can someone with an older version of IE test http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/samples/author/dhtml/refs/obj_dataTransferEX.htm to see if it still works?
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  217. # [05:35] <Hixie> christ, IE crashes at the drop of the hat when you do drag-and-drop stuff
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  235. # [08:29] <heycam> Hixie, garrett's name in the comments of acid3 is misspelled (missing the second 't'), assuming it's the same garrett who posts to public-html etc.
  236. # [08:30] <Hixie> ah
  237. # [08:30] <Hixie> (thanks)
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  243. # [09:36] <Hixie> hsivonen: the warning on http://html5.validator.nu/?=&doc=http%3A%2F%2Fgoogle.com%2Fprivacy%2F is bogus as far as i can tell
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  245. # [10:06] <Hixie> ok i'm ready for my talk in 11 hours.
  246. # [10:08] <krijnh> Hixie: what talk?
  247. # [10:08] <Hixie> i'm giving a demo of html5 features at google
  248. # [10:09] <krijnh> Ah
  249. # [10:09] <Hixie> i have no slides, my goal is to just sit in front of an editor and write up 9 demo files on the fly
  250. # [10:09] <krijnh> Do you also talk on conferences? :)
  251. # [10:09] <Hixie> (which i have cunningly prepared and debugged already)
  252. # [10:09] <Hixie> not if i can help it!
  253. # [10:09] <krijnh> Heh
  254. # [10:13] * krijnh <strike>s Hixie as a possible speaker for next year :)
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  257. # [10:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: are you suggesting removing the warning on "</" inside CDATA?
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  259. # [10:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: will the demos be public after the talk?
  260. # [10:20] <hsivonen> or might the whole presentation end up on YouTube/Google Video?
  261. # [10:21] <annevk2> the demos will be public
  262. # [10:22] * hsivonen didn't know that historically "deprecate" meant "to pray against evil"
  263. # [10:23] <Hixie> demos are already public, though not in usable form: http://whatwg.org/demos/2008-sept/
  264. # [10:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks
  265. # [10:28] <annevk2> why should <video> and <audio> not work cross origin by default?
  266. # [10:29] <hsivonen> annevk2: is there something saying they should not?
  267. # [10:30] <hsivonen> I suppose I could just zap the warning...
  268. # [10:31] <annevk2> a bug report
  269. # [10:31] <hsivonen> annevk2: in Opera's bug tracker?
  270. # [10:31] <annevk2> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6104
  271. # [10:31] <hsivonen> whoa
  272. # [10:32] <hsivonen> that would pretty radically change the Web works compared to images and iframes
  273. # [10:32] <hsivonen> s/the/the way the/
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  275. # [10:33] <Hixie> hsivonen: er, yes, i was suggesting removing the warning
  276. # [10:34] <Hixie> hsivonen: the spec was changed to make it ok, since people put xml in <script> blocks, and all
  277. # [10:34] <Hixie> annevk2: when we expose metadata, it'll allow cross-origin data transfer
  278. # [10:34] <Hixie> annevk2: same reason we don't want xhr cross-domain, or svg accessible cross-domain
  279. # [10:34] <Hixie> or html
  280. # [10:35] <Hixie> anyway, bed time
  281. # [10:36] <annevk2> we could make the metadata depend on access control
  282. # [10:38] <hsivonen> annevk2: Does AC support a post-GET privilege upgrade check?
  283. # [10:38] <annevk2> you would do it during the GET request
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  285. # [10:38] <annevk2> in case of failure you wouldn't stop loading the resource, but you would disallow certain things
  286. # [10:39] <hsivonen> annevk2: ah
  287. # [10:39] <hsivonen> how does AC work with cross-origin images drawn on <canvas>?
  288. # [10:39] <hsivonen> (and trying to read back <canvas> data)
  289. # [10:39] <annevk2> it could enable that if defined by HTML5, yes
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  291. # [10:40] <annevk2> pretty much only such use case I could think of so far
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  293. # [10:40] <hsivonen> I wonder how far-fetched it would be for someone to put private stuff in glyphs in a font...
  294. # [10:41] <roc> I want to make all new kinds of resource loads to be same-origin by default with Access-Controls support for relaxing that
  295. # [10:41] <hsivonen> roc: why?
  296. # [10:41] <roc> simplicity
  297. # [10:42] <roc> consistency
  298. # [10:42] <roc> protection against unforseen security issues
  299. # [10:43] <annevk2> wow, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/83073/div-vs-table
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  303. # [10:46] <hsivonen> annevk2: "wow" at the question or at the answers?
  304. # [10:46] <annevk2> mostly question
  305. # [10:46] <hsivonen> annevk2: and is that a positive or negative "wow"?
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  307. # [10:47] <annevk2> mostly negative
  308. # [10:47] <annevk2> also just surprised
  309. # [10:48] <hsivonen> I tend to agree with him that the arguments usually presented against layout tables don't stand the kind of scrutiny we usually subject stuff to here :-)
  310. # [10:48] <roc> I have to confess I think the anti-table-layout sentiment is overblown. There are too many things that are easy to do with tables but hard to do with CSS
  311. # [10:49] <hsivonen> also, the worst layout breakages I've experienced on mobile devices (with proper browser engines!) have been cases where someone has tried to emulate table layouts in CSS
  312. # [10:50] <hsivonen> and things have gotten really badly messed up with thin view ports
  313. # [10:50] <hsivonen> (proper browser engines being Gecko and Presto as of Opera 8)
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  316. # [10:52] <annevk2> yeah, CSS is lacking something
  317. # [10:53] <annevk2> hopefully someone gets around publishing and updating flexbox soonish
  318. # [10:53] <hsivonen> CSS positioning is much worse than tables
  319. # [10:53] <hsivonen> and positioning was for a long time put forward as the righteous replacement for tables
  320. # [10:53] <hsivonen> (worse in the sense that stuff breaks on view ports that the author did not expect)
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  325. # [11:09] <hsivonen> yet another anecdote about broken longdesc: http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2008-September/000999.html
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  327. # [11:45] <hendry> anyone know if I can to test if a iframe is responsive? (didn't have JS crash)
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  329. # [11:46] <hsivonen> hendry: if you control the iframe, perhaps have a postMessage ping protocol?
  330. # [11:48] <hendry> hsivonen: reference? will that work on crap browsers like pocket IE?
  331. # [11:48] <hsivonen> hendry: the HTML5 spec. and no, it won't work in crap browsers
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  333. # [11:49] <hsivonen> hendry: does your boss make you support pocket IE?
  334. # [11:49] <hendry> hsivonen: it's an example of an old browser
  335. # [11:49] <hendry> hsivonen: basically working on sunspider to make it work when JS crashes in an iframe in some older (mobile) browsers
  336. # [11:50] <annevk2> <iframe onload=...> or something?
  337. # [11:51] <hendry> annevk2: don't understand... how would i know JS has crashed/stopped processing? a timeout?
  338. # [11:52] <annevk2> oh, hmm
  339. # [11:52] <annevk2> maybe you could run some interval in the outer frame that updates or polls some information from the inner frame
  340. # [11:52] <hendry> http://perf.webvm.net/sunspider-0.9/sunspider-driver.html is what i am working on btw
  341. # [11:53] <hsivonen> hendry: why do you care about benchmarking browsers that are too broken to run sunspider
  342. # [11:53] <annevk2> (I wouldn't use setInterval, but rather setTimeout that itself sets setTimeout from its callback function to prevent it from stalling everything)
  343. # [11:55] <hendry> hsivonen: i find it interesting :) though seriously i would like to come up with a generic test driver that can proceed in cases where the JS crashes. It's probably need done somewhere?
  344. # [11:55] <hendry> s/need/been
  345. # [11:56] <hsivonen> hendry: if you are willing to edit the contents of the iframe, you could make the outer page set a function on the window object of the iframe and have the iframe send heartbeat by calling the function
  346. # [11:56] <hsivonen> (see Hixie's live dom viewer for how to set it up)
  347. # [11:59] <hendry> hsivonen: thanks, looks promising
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  350. # [12:04] <annevk2> o_O http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-forum/2008JulSep/0267.html (W3C Member-only)
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  353. # [12:22] <roc> someone should tell him that if you subscribe to whatwg and not public-html, it's no trouble at all to keep up
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  355. # [12:22] <roc> hmm, the message just before that is interesting
  356. # [12:23] <roc> the truth is, there was a flurry of activity, then I posted to the list (via dbaron) and all activity ceased
  357. # [12:23] <roc> FEAR ME
  358. # [12:29] <hendry> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070703#l-518 # testframe.onerror is not catching JS errors in FF3 :/
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  366. # [13:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: the warning is now gone
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  375. # [16:08] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks! -- gsnedders has green hair, photos coming really soon :-)'
  376. # [16:08] * Set by gsnedders on Sat Sep 06 19:58:04
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  414. # [19:26] <jgraham> Oh wow, we're going to have the whole "should browsers have one rendering engine per html mode" argument again. public-html is like the white hole episode of red dwarf only less funny
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  416. # [19:31] <jgraham> hsivonen: Are you aware of any discrepancies between the html5 spec and the html5lib test suite?
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  419. # [19:35] <Dashiva> jgraham: But it's still somewhat funny?
  420. # [19:36] <jgraham> Dashiva: Yes.
  421. # [19:37] <annevk2> public-html is becoming more and more useless :/
  422. # [19:38] <gsnedders> annevk2: It became that a long time ago.
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  425. # [19:39] <gsnedders> annevk2: Is <http://anolis.quuz.org/source> up-to-date?
  426. # [19:40] <hsivonen> jgraham: I haven't done a svn up for a while, but <option> in body stuff changed
  427. # [19:40] <hsivonen> might be fixed already in the repo.
  428. # [19:43] * hallvors wonders why building the old W3C test suites is so complicated.. :-p
  429. # [19:43] <jgraham> hsivonen: OK. I guess I can just look for the stuff in the tests that doesn't work as a reasonable approximation of all the brokenness
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  431. # [19:46] <hsivonen> jgraham: the option stuff is still broken
  432. # [19:46] <hsivonen> I just did an svn up
  433. # [19:46] <hsivonen> and it crashes my harness
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  438. # [20:04] <takkaria> well, I made a good-faith effort to reply, now I give up
  439. # [20:07] <takkaria> it looks to me lke Sam/Justin don't actually author much in the way of HTML
  440. # [20:08] <hsivonen> lock-in is in the legacy, so leaving the processing of legacy a mystery is bad
  441. # [20:17] <annevk2> gsnedders, yes, I believe it is
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  443. # [20:22] <annevk2> wow, I'm still amazed that people on public-html are actually considering the idea of having multiple browser code paths depending on the DOCTYPE
  444. # [20:24] <webben> maybe the whatwg faq needs to say explicitly that all doctypes' parsing will be specified by HTML5.
  445. # [20:26] <annevk2> yeah, that is, that HTML 4.01, XHTML 1.0, etc. as text/html will all be treated as per HTML 5
  446. # [20:26] <webben> yep
  447. # [20:28] <hsivonen> turned out my test harness needed a bigger mark limit when going back and forth in the test file stream
  448. # [20:30] <webben> I suppose the FAQ could also clarify that in so far as DOCTYPE will be used it would be to switch parsing modes and that HTML5 specifies both the switch and the parsing modes.
  449. # [20:31] <webben> but that these parsing differences are minimal
  450. # [20:31] <webben> (or alternately, expensive(?) but necessary for legacy content)
  451. # [20:32] <hsivonen> the spec doesn't cover quirks mode parsing properly yes
  452. # [20:32] <webben> isn't it going to?
  453. # [20:32] <hsivonen> it is going to
  454. # [20:32] <hsivonen> afaik
  455. # [20:33] <webben> *will specify then :)
  456. # [20:33] <hsivonen> s/yes/yet/
  457. # [20:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: is it intentional that <title> in 'in body' no longer gets hoisted to <head>?
  458. # [20:36] <hsivonen> jgraham: the test cases also test <title> to head hoisting
  459. # [20:36] <Philip`> A FAQ entry like that would have to explain why HTML5 works that way, rather than just stating that it does, otherwise people will still argue that it should work differently without being aware of the problems
  460. # [20:37] <Philip`> and then it's not really a FAQ entry, and it's more like design rationale documentation or something
  461. # [20:38] <annevk2> hsivonen, <title> shouldn't move
  462. # [20:38] <webben> well, the FAQ could always link to a design rationale note.
  463. # [20:38] <annevk2> can someone formulate a question?
  464. # [20:38] * annevk2 can try to fill in the rest
  465. # [20:38] <takkaria> "Why doesn't HTML 5 leave HTML 4 parsing to HTML 4?"
  466. # [20:38] <takkaria> or s/parsing/handling/
  467. # [20:39] <webben> or more generally: "How will pre-HTML5 be parsed?"
  468. # [20:39] <webben> *pre-HTML5 documents
  469. # [20:39] <webben> doesn't have the word doctype in though
  470. # [20:40] <annevk2> thx
  471. # [20:40] <hsivonen> annevk2: As far as I can tell, 'title' in 'in body' is no longer specified to push the head pointer onto the stack
  472. # [20:41] <annevk2> hsivonen, yes, <body><title>xxx</title></body> should not move <title>
  473. # [20:42] <hsivonen> annevk2: oops. sorry. I misread what you said
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  476. # [20:50] <annevk2> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#How_are_pre-HTML5_documents_parsed.3F
  477. # [20:52] <webben> annevk2: seems good to me :)
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  497. # [22:31] * Quits: starjive (i=beos@213-66-217-32-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  498. # [22:35] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
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  504. # [23:18] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@17.202.33.235)
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  506. # [23:19] * Joins: aroben_ (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  507. # [23:20] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Remote closed the connection)
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  510. # [23:31] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  511. # [23:35] * Quits: aroben|meeting (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  512. # Session Close: Tue Sep 23 00:00:00 2008

The end :)