/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-09-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Sep 23 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:05] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@203-158-36-226.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  4. # [00:06] <Hixie> well, my talk will apparently be on youtube in due course
  5. # [00:06] <Hixie> so you can all laugh at my horrible talk :-P
  6. # [00:07] <Dashiva> Did you add a funny accent?
  7. # [00:09] <annevk2> I found http://twitter.com/jaguarjaws/statuses/930818392 and http://twitter.com/tjohns/statuses/930869517 which I believe are directly related to your talk
  8. # [00:09] <Hixie> the biggest "wow" was for type=date which i thought was funny
  9. # [00:10] <annevk2> heh, maybe everyone made a date widget at one point? :)
  10. # [00:12] <Hixie> probably :-)
  11. # [00:12] <Hixie> yeah, those twitters are almost certainly from people who saw the talk
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  13. # [00:16] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/demos/2008-sept/ has the demos btw
  14. # [00:19] <roc> your DnD demo has interesting behaviour when you drag across browser windows
  15. # [00:20] <Hixie> heh, didn't try that
  16. # [00:20] <Hixie> what does it do?
  17. # [00:20] <Hixie> oh i guess it gets the local one
  18. # [00:20] <Hixie> heh
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  20. # [00:23] <roc> Hixie: MS only took a 3-year break in the development of IE
  21. # [00:24] <Hixie> i ended up not even mentioning that, i should just remove it from the notes
  22. # [00:25] <roc> aw, no offline apps demo
  23. # [00:27] <Hixie> it's fricking hard to demo offline stuff
  24. # [00:27] <Hixie> i considered it, but i was over time anyway, so i stuck with what i had
  25. # [00:27] <roc> yes it is
  26. # [00:28] * Hixie updated the widgets/ directory to have all the various demos he did in different files
  27. # [00:28] <roc> we've done it. "Look the app's working. <disconnect network> Look, the app's still working!!!" somehow it's hard to make that exciting
  28. # [00:29] <Hixie> i believe one of my lines was "and now the most surprising thing about this particular demo... (loads the demo in IE, shows that it works) it works in IE! (silence) well I thought it was surprising. Moving on..."
  29. # [00:29] <annevk2> I do mention offline in talks, which is enough to excite people it seems
  30. # [00:30] <roc> it totally lacks the "oooh, shiny" effect
  31. # [00:30] <annevk2> Hixie, hehe
  32. # [00:30] <Hixie> someone asked what the status of xhtml was
  33. # [00:30] <Hixie> i tried to be politically correct
  34. # [00:30] <Hixie> but i'm sure i'll get flamed when the video is seen by people in the xhtml2wg
  35. # [00:31] <annevk2> how long did your talk take?
  36. # [00:31] <Hixie> an hour or so
  37. # [00:31] <Hixie> plus questions
  38. # [00:31] * Hixie gave a talk a year or so ago where he said he didn't even want a google-internal video to exist, and in that talk he was highly politically incorrect
  39. # [00:31] <Hixie> that was fun
  40. # [00:32] <Hixie> i think this is my first to-be-publicly-seen talk
  41. # [00:32] <annevk2> that was indeed a fun talk
  42. # [00:32] * annevk2 remembers reading the slides in Boston
  43. # [00:32] <Hixie> oh right, i showed you the slides
  44. # [00:32] <Hixie> teehee
  45. # [00:33] <Hixie> i had no slides for my talk today
  46. # [00:33] <Hixie> also a first for me i believe
  47. # [00:33] <annevk2> you just sat there with a laptop?
  48. # [00:33] <Hixie> yup
  49. # [00:33] <Hixie> projected my emacs and showed things in five browsers
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  59. # [01:07] <blooberry> hixie: what was the type="date" result that was so "ooooh" worthy?
  60. # [01:07] <Hixie> that it existed at all
  61. # [01:08] <Dashiva> I wish people would ooooh over type="email" too
  62. # [01:10] <Dashiva> Hopefully it will save us from the plague of broken regular expressions
  63. # [01:11] * Dashiva wonders if there's a corrolary to Godwin's Law for cheating by naming Mussolini and fascists instead
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  65. # [01:13] <Philip`> You are assuming browsers won't implement type="email" with broken regular expressions
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  67. # [01:14] <Hixie> and that the servers won't continue to do the checking in a broken way
  68. # [01:17] <Dashiva> Philip`: Luckily I know regular expressions, so I could make my own build ;)
  69. # [01:18] <Dashiva> Hixie: I suspect a good deal of people in the group making broken regexpes are also in the group thinking clientside validation is sufficient
  70. # [01:19] <blooberry> dashiva: I immediately think of http://xkcd.com/208/ when I see that. ;-}
  71. # [01:20] <Hixie> Dashiva: :-/
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  73. # [01:21] <Dashiva> Email validation is such a joke anyway. If the domain and mailbox don't actually exist, it doesn't matter how well-formed the address is.
  74. # [01:22] <Philip`> But it can help detect unintentional typos
  75. # [01:23] <Dashiva> I can't think of any common cases a regexp would detect, apart from forgetting the @
  76. # [01:25] <Dashiva> (which is incidentally the regexp I usually recommend, .+@.+)
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  86. # [02:01] <Hixie> <input type=file accept> seems problematic
  87. # [02:03] <Hixie> there don't seem to be any use cases that limit the type without also limiting other things, like image size, framerate, audio codec, or whatever
  88. # [02:03] <Hixie> so it seems pointless to keep it
  89. # [02:04] <Hixie> the main use case was to enable on-the-fly video/audio/photo upload, but maybe we're better off providing direct access to the camera/mic
  90. # [02:05] <shepazu> that seems like that should be part of the file-upload spec
  91. # [02:05] <Hixie> yeah, i was about to say that it seems like something to punt to the binary data work
  92. # [02:05] <shepazu> which arun will be editing, it seems
  93. # [02:06] <shepazu> I do agree we need to allow (controlled) access to camera & mic
  94. # [02:06] <Hixie> yeah that's been requested a lot from cutting-edge app authors
  95. # [02:07] <shepazu> well, Flash has had it for many years
  96. # [02:07] <Hixie> yup
  97. # [02:07] <shepazu> and I'm sure Silverlight has it (or will)
  98. # [02:08] <shepazu> hmmm... wonder how that plays into uploading RAW files from a USB camera/memory card? or would that just be a normal file upload?
  99. # [02:08] <Hixie> dunno
  100. # [02:09] <othermaciej> Hixie: accept is more useful as a hint than a limit
  101. # [02:09] <othermaciej> Hixie: so the UA can show a specialized media browser for audio, video or image types for example
  102. # [02:09] <othermaciej> instead of generic file open dialog
  103. # [02:09] <shepazu> those files are huge... but photo-editing webapps would do well to allow them
  104. # [02:09] <Hixie> othermaciej: does anyone do that? or have any plans to?
  105. # [02:10] <othermaciej> Apple does not comment on future product releases
  106. # [02:11] <othermaciej> but I think it would be a swell idea, given that both Mac OS X and the iPhone have specific media picker UIs
  107. # [02:11] <Hixie> hypothetically, should someone want this to remain in the spec, would they want it to just be image|video|audio|mime-type ? or just image|audio|video ? or just mime-type? or something more elaborate?
  108. # [02:11] <Hixie> comma separated list, any mime supertype? parameters?
  109. # [02:11] <othermaciej> I don't know if any of the other base MIME types are particularly useful
  110. # [02:11] <othermaciej> text and application don't tell you much
  111. # [02:12] <othermaciej> I guess font is a root type though?
  112. # [02:12] <Hixie> multipart either
  113. # [02:12] <Hixie> application audio example image message model multipart text video
  114. # [02:12] <othermaciej> anyway the semantics I describe are not really exactly what would be implied by "accept"
  115. # [02:13] <Hixie> html4 has accept="mime/type" iirc
  116. # [02:14] <Hixie> wf2 has accept="mime/type,mime/type,mime/type" (comma-separated list) where any of the mime/type entries can be mime/* or */* as well
  117. # [02:14] <othermaciej> single instance of mime/* (or just the base part) is the use case I would be most interested in
  118. # [02:16] <Hixie> HTML4 has a comma-separated list
  119. # [02:16] <Hixie> so i propose making it a comma-separated list _or_ one of "image", "video", "audio"
  120. # [02:17] <Hixie> and the selected file(s) must either have the given types or be of the given category
  121. # [02:17] <Hixie> sound good?
  122. # [02:24] <blooberry> would there be any use in allowing multiple types at once for the latter?
  123. # [02:25] <blooberry> say, "image,audio"?
  124. # [02:30] <Hixie> what's the use case?
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  127. # [02:43] <roc> shepazu: Silverlight doesn't have it
  128. # [02:45] <othermaciej> flickr might want an "image,video" uploader
  129. # [02:45] <othermaciej> (if this results in a media browser with only image and video categories, say)
  130. # [02:46] <Hixie> hm, true
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  133. # [03:11] <blooberry> othermaciej: yeah, that was my thought. A restriction to "sighted media" would encompass both image and video. I can't think of an easy case for mixing audio with the others.
  134. # [03:11] <othermaciej> I could imagine a site where you could post audio or video
  135. # [03:12] <othermaciej> or any of audio, video or image but not other kinds of files
  136. # [03:12] <blooberry> hmm.
  137. # [03:12] <blooberry> itunes now is currently sellers->consumers. It does both audio and video. If in the future such a service allowed posting of same...
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  163. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> Hixie: wondering if I might steal some of your demos for my presentation at Web Directions South later this week
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  191. # [09:18] <annevk2> Work on an HTML5 parser in Perl: http://suika.fam.cx/www/markup/html/whatpm/readme
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  195. # [09:42] <Hixie> MikeSmith: go for it
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  197. # [09:46] <ginger> MikeSmith: I see you're speaking at Sydney this week - are you from AU?
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  209. # [11:18] <zcorpan_> am i missing something with dir="rtl" and the table header algorithm?
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  214. # [11:35] <Hixie> zcorpan_: like what?
  215. # [11:38] <zcorpan_> Hixie: "HTML 5's proposed smart scope algorithm pretty much does this, except it overlooks dir="rtl"." -- http://www.w3.org/mid/e2a28a920809230152p707fb0ccoc4edc9c3947d9bf5@mail.gmail.com
  216. # [11:39] <zcorpan_> i thought it would work exactly the same for rtl tables so i'm not sure what the algorithm is overlooking
  217. # [11:40] <Hixie> dunno
  218. # [11:40] <Hixie> maybe i forgot to swap it around for rtl?
  219. # [11:40] <Hixie> though i thought i handled it
  220. # [11:41] <zcorpan_> rtl tables are just mirrored in the rendering
  221. # [11:41] <Hixie> yeah the algorithms looks to be direction agnostic
  222. # [11:42] <Hixie> algorithm. or look. one of the two.
  223. # [11:42] <Hixie> oh well
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  231. # [12:31] <zcorpan_> why is window[0].document undefined in webkit?
  232. # [12:32] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Ciframe%20src%3Ddata%3Atext%2Fhtml%2Cx%20onload%3Dw(window%5B0%5D.document)%3E
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  235. # [12:36] <zcorpan_> is there a difference between importNode and cloneNode?
  236. # [12:36] <zcorpan_> in browsers i.e.
  237. # [12:39] <zcorpan_> i don't understand why people have been working so hard on replacing html with something "saner"
  238. # [12:39] <zcorpan_> when no-one has pushed for browsers do replace the dom
  239. # [12:47] <zcorpan_> seems the difference is only in setting ownerDocument
  240. # [13:04] <zcorpan_> hmm wonder how i should define cloning
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  242. # [13:14] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: the DOM and HTML are not part of the W3C's Techology Stack...
  243. # [13:15] <hsivonen> I started writing a blog post about the technology stack yesterday but didn't have enough hours in a day to finish
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  246. # [13:20] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: i don't follow but i guess i'll read your blog post WIR
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  248. # [13:22] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I mean: the W3C has not only dropped HTML but has also dropped the DOM from its powerpointware
  249. # [13:23] <hsivonen> so presumably the DOM doesn't count as "saner", either
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  251. # [13:24] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: but does the w3c have a replacement for the dom?
  252. # [13:24] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: the SVG WG has a uDOM, but other than that, not that I'm aware
  253. # [13:27] <Philip`> Just use XPath and declarative expressions
  254. # [13:28] <hsivonen> oops. I take that back. DOM is in the stack but not where I expected to see it. Sorry.
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  263. # [14:30] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: i need automatic xrefs to html5 for web dom core :)
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  269. # [14:36] <zcorpan_> ok i've specced importNode and cloneNode, except i've not covered attributes yes http://simon.html5.org/specs/web-dom-core
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  271. # [14:40] <zcorpan_> s/yes/yet/
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  292. # [15:39] <hsivonen> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/webstandards2008
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  299. # [16:06] <csarven> Ahh, is there a way to use unicode values in input[type=value] ?
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  302. # [16:07] <hsivonen> csarven: yes. UTF-8 of backslash escapes
  303. # [16:07] <csarven> Doh! Thanks.
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  305. # [16:08] <hsivonen> s/of/or/
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  308. # [16:09] <csarven> hsivonen Sorry, my mistake, I've meant the @value for input type submit.
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  310. # [16:10] <hsivonen> csarven: in HTML?
  311. # [16:10] <csarven> Yes.
  312. # [16:10] <hsivonen> csarven: doesn't Unicode Just Work there?
  313. # [16:11] <zcorpan_> it should...
  314. # [16:11] <csarven> Trying to show the heart character ? &#9829;
  315. # [16:11] <zcorpan_> wfm in opera
  316. # [16:11] <hsivonen> csarven: might be a font problem
  317. # [16:12] <csarven> Well the character does display if I use the symbol directly as opposed to the char value.
  318. # [16:13] <hsivonen> csarven: which browser and OS?
  319. # [16:13] <hsivonen> WFM in Firefox 3 and Opera 9.5 on Leopard
  320. # [16:13] <csarven> Firefox/Vista. I must be doing this wrong then.
  321. # [16:16] <csarven> Do I have to use the octal value?
  322. # [16:19] <Philip`> You can't use octal - you should use decimal (&#9829;) or hex (&#x2665;)
  323. # [16:20] <csarven> I swear that is not working for me.
  324. # [16:20] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cinput%20type%3D%22submit%22%20value%3D%22%26%239829%3B%20%26%23x2665%3B%22%3E%0D%0A
  325. # [16:21] <Philip`> shows me a hearty button
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  327. # [16:21] <csarven> I'm guessing that Firebug is fooling me.
  328. # [16:23] * aroben|away is now known as aroben
  329. # [16:24] <zcorpan_> csarven: are you testing with a data url?
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  331. # [16:27] <csarven> zcorpan_ No.
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  336. # [16:39] <hsivonen> sorry about html5.validator.nu being down...
  337. # [16:39] <hsivonen> fixing it...
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  354. # [18:18] * Philip` wonders how you could possibly do feature-sniffing of something like APNG, e.g. if you wanted to emulate it with scripts in less able browsers but didn't want to hardcode a list of UA strings
  355. # [18:19] <annevk2> with setTimeout and <canvas> or does it always draw the first frame?
  356. # [18:19] <Dashiva> You could use a APNG wih the dead frame showing "Click here to win a million dollars" and have onclick to do script animation
  357. # [18:19] <Philip`> <canvas> is defined (though not implemented) to always draw the poster frame or first frame
  358. # [18:20] <hsivonen> Philip`: spec bug
  359. # [18:20] <annevk2> can the first frame differ depending on APNG support?
  360. # [18:20] <Philip`> ("When the drawImage() method is passed, as its image argument, an animated image, the poster frame of the animation, or the first frame of the animation if there is no poster frame, must be used.")
  361. # [18:22] <Philip`> annevk2: The first frame can, but the poster-frame-or-else-first-frame can't
  362. # [18:22] <Philip`> (If an APNG has a poster frame, then that's what non-APNG implementations will show; otherwise the APNG only has a first frame, which is what non-APNG implementations will show)
  363. # [18:24] <Philip`> Opera doesn't appear to even bother animating images unless they're visible on the screen, so it'd be kind of hard to do any reliable timer-based testing anyway
  364. # [18:26] <Philip`> (See e.g. http://philip.html5.org/tests/apng/tests.html in Opera, like how the "dispose ops" images change colour briefly if you scroll them off then back on the screen, at least in my copies of Opera)
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  374. # [19:33] <csarven> What's more accessible: &#9829; or <img> with @alt.
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  378. # [20:46] <takkaria> I fear public-html
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  381. # [20:52] <gsnedders> csarven: Probably <img> with @alt.
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  383. # [21:00] <webben> csarven: I suspect gsnedders right (at least in terms of user-agent support - e.g. encodings, fonts, screen readers pronouncing things right)
  384. # [21:00] <webben> csarven: e.g. JAWS confuses mathematical comparison symbols.
  385. # [21:03] <csarven> gsnedders webben Thanks.
  386. # [21:03] <gsnedders> (I don't claim to be an accessibility expert, so maybe I'm right)
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  388. # [21:04] <csarven> They are both fairly close IMO.
  389. # [21:04] <Dashiva> Having a list of symbol names is pretty simple, so it seems likely it wouldn't be supported :P
  390. # [21:07] <hsivonen> Dashiva: IIRC, VoiceOver (in English) can fall back onto the unicode character name
  391. # [21:07] <webben> I think all pop. screen readers allow users to customize their dictionaries too
  392. # [21:08] <webben> of course, they'd need to know to do that in advance.
  393. # [21:09] <webben> Perhaps worth thinking about whether the unicode char name is what you really _mean_ however. e.g. it might be "black heart". "I black heart HTML5" for example doesn't necessarily convey the sense well.
  394. # [21:09] * webben checks
  395. # [21:10] <webben> apparently the name is "BLACK HEART SUIT"
  396. # [21:14] <Dashiva> So you want text equivalents for text
  397. # [21:15] <hdh> just like smileys, abbr[title]
  398. # [21:17] <webben> Dashiva: is it text?
  399. # [21:17] <webben> (seems a bit inbetweeny)
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  401. # [21:20] <Dashiva> Well, is a metaphor text?
  402. # [21:24] <webben> Not necessarily.
  403. # [21:24] <webben> You can speak a metaphor, for starters :)
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  406. # [21:25] <webben> I'm not sure I (heart symbol) X is a strictly a metaphor anyways.
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  417. # [22:05] <Philip`> It seems less useful to ponder whether ♥ is text, than to ponder concrete use cases like how a non-visual UA could interpret that character
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  419. # [22:07] <gsnedders> e.g., I <abbr title="love">♥</abbr> Philip`.
  420. # [22:07] <gsnedders> As opposed to, I picked up a <abbr title="suite of hearts">♥</abbr> card.
  421. # [22:07] <Philip`> It'd be nice if AI could work out whether it's an abbreviation for the word "love" or is representing a card suit or is part of a manual for medical students or whatever
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  423. # [22:07] <gsnedders> How about &gt;3?
  424. # [22:08] <hsivonen> ☙
  425. # [22:08] <gsnedders> s/g/l/
  426. # [22:09] <Philip`> I wonder how well you could do by just determining whether ♥ is being used as a verb, in which case it probably means "love"
  427. # [22:09] <hsivonen> what about ❤
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  447. # [23:36] <Hixie> the criticism of whatwg in http://www.alistapart.com/articles/webstandards2008 misses the mark by a wide margin
  448. # [23:36] <Hixie> there are plenty of things to criticise the whatwg for
  449. # [23:36] <Hixie> those aren't it :-)
  450. # [23:37] <Hixie> e.g. we're anonymous??
  451. # [23:37] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  452. # [23:37] <Hixie> and lack of leadership?? i thought the whole problem was that my being a dictator.
  453. # [23:37] <Hixie> s/that//
  454. # [23:37] <Hixie> and "No economic support" is a con?
  455. # [23:39] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-4a6700ee4c58a577) (Connection timed out)
  456. # [23:40] <Dashiva> I like the repeated use of "Nothing demonstrates this more than..."
  457. # [23:48] <Hixie> the second one of those is wrong too (webkit is always careful to prefix their extensions)
  458. # [23:48] * Quits: psa (n=yomode@71.93.19.66) (Remote closed the connection)
  459. # [23:48] * Joins: psa1 (n=yomode@71.93.19.66)
  460. # [23:48] <Hixie> and "Nothing demonstrates this more than Mozilla’s and Opera’s inability to grow a user base beyond a certain point." is totaly wrong
  461. # [23:49] <Hixie> first of all firefox market share hasn't peaked
  462. # [23:49] <Hixie> and secondly, opera's market share being flat is clearly not anything to do with proprietary stuff since firefox's market share is bigger than opera's
  463. # [23:49] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl) ("Disconnected...")
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  466. # [23:53] <Hixie> wow
  467. # [23:54] <Hixie> the entirety of the "Is "breaking the Web" with HTML 5 a non issue" thread got caught in my "AAA-Productivity" folder
  468. # [23:54] <Hixie> my filters work remarkably well
  469. # [23:55] <roc> I think I'd better not read this or I will be unnecessarily enraged
  470. # [23:56] <roc> why is it so hard to resist the temptation
  471. # [23:56] <Dashiva> Rage, rage against the thread of the email
  472. # Session Close: Wed Sep 24 00:00:00 2008

The end :)