/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-09-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 25 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [01:04] <weinig> Hixie: ping?
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  19. # [01:37] <MikeSmith> anybody else from #whatwg at Web Directions South this week?
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  21. # [01:43] <Hixie> weinig: here
  22. # [01:44] <weinig> Hixie: hey, have Adam Barth or Collin Jackson (or others) talked to you about specing sending the Origin header for non-XMLHttpRequest requests?
  23. # [01:45] <weinig> ie. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=446344 and https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=20792
  24. # [01:55] <Hixie> it's a topic that has come up in conversation
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  26. # [01:58] <Hixie> i agree with maciej's comment on the webkit bug
  27. # [01:58] <Hixie> i'm happy to spec it in html5 for form submission and the like, but http seems like a place to define the header, if not the value
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  29. # [02:00] * weinig nods
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  43. # [04:24] <gsnedders> Hixie: Nobody is working on a new version of HTTP, though: 2616bis is just revising the spec, and can't make any normative changes to it.
  44. # [04:24] <gsnedders> Hixie: Which is kinda problematic if that's the place to define the header.
  45. # [04:25] <gsnedders> (and yeah, I really am up at 3:19am)
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  48. # [04:40] <gsnedders> This draft of the personal statement is absolutely shite.
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  53. # [05:18] * Lachy finally met MikeSmith in person at Web Directions
  54. # [05:19] <gsnedders> So MikeSmith is indeed a person?
  55. # [05:20] <Lachy> gsnedders, either that, or a really life-like robot.
  56. # [05:20] <gsnedders> I still suspect the latter.
  57. # [05:20] <Lachy> considering his name is a trademark, yeah, me too :-)
  58. # [05:21] <Lachy> he's probably made by some company in Japan
  59. # [05:21] <gsnedders> Mike™ Smith Robots, Inc.?
  60. # [05:22] <Lachy> heh
  61. # [05:22] <Lachy> gotta go, cya
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  63. # [05:22] <gsnedders> Have fun
  64. # [05:23] <gsnedders> But he left before I could say even that :'(
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  76. # [06:02] <gsnedders> I HATE THIS.
  77. # [06:02] * gsnedders sighs
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  79. # [06:18] <gsnedders> Philip`: ping
  80. # [06:19] <gsnedders> (though I expect I'll be at school when you pong me)
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  98. # [07:23] <gsnedders> I really dislike writing a personal statement.
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  100. # [07:33] <gsnedders> The first and last sentences are the hardest to write, certainly.
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  111. # [08:25] <hsivonen> yay. the server handling my email got electricity back
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  114. # [08:35] <krijnh> hsivonen: do you have an article online somewhere about "[10:53] <hsivonen> CSS positioning is much worse than tables" ? :)
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  116. # [08:45] <hsivonen> krijnh: I don't, but dbaron had a presentation touching on the matter at XTech 2006.
  117. # [08:45] * hsivonen looks up the presentation paper
  118. # [08:45] <hsivonen> (though that was about floats, iirc)
  119. # [08:45] <krijnh> Ah, yeah, I think I've read that
  120. # [08:46] <zcorpan_> hasn't dbaron whined on his blog about the matter too?
  121. # [08:46] <krijnh> Yep
  122. # [08:46] <krijnh> Re the One True Layout thing
  123. # [08:46] <zcorpan_> http://dbaron.org/log/2005-12#e20051228a
  124. # [08:47] <krijnh> And now the anti-positioning thing :)
  125. # [08:48] <hsivonen> the paper is http://xtech06.usefulinc.com/schedule/paper/146 but the paper doesn't really contain the point I imagine to recall from the presentation
  126. # [08:48] <hsivonen> krijnh: anyway, my own experience with positioning is that people who go with positioning in order to avoid tables end up having their boxes overlap on narrow viewports
  127. # [08:49] <hsivonen> krijnh: with tables at least the formatter takes care of cells not overlapping
  128. # [08:50] <krijnh> Our government advises http://www.webrichtlijnen.nl/english/manual/development/production/page-structure/body/#r-pd-6-2 - which would almost require position: absolute in all of the cases
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  130. # [08:52] <krijnh> (If a main navigation which should be on top of the page visually is considered less important and put below the main body)
  131. # [08:53] <krijnh> Dunno if that would count as using positioning in order to avoid tables
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  139. # [09:19] <Hixie> heycam: any news on the issue of changing the way we do getters and setters to be just exposed properties?
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  142. # [09:31] <heycam> hi Hixie, no i haven't fixed that up yet
  143. # [09:31] <heycam> (that's the issue garrett raised, yes?)
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  145. # [09:32] <heycam> i haven't had any time for webidl lately, unfortunately, with conferences and other work taking up my time
  146. # [09:32] <heycam> perhaps soon...
  147. # [09:32] * heycam heads home and will be back online in an hour
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  150. # [09:40] <Philip`> gsnedders: Pong
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  155. # [10:16] <Hixie> am i missing something?
  156. # [10:16] <Hixie> headers/id IS in the spec
  157. # [10:19] <zcorpan_> Hixie: it can't point to <td>
  158. # [10:19] <Hixie> that doesn't seem to be what hsivonen was talking about in his last e-mail
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  160. # [10:19] <annevk2> (maybe he was confused with Laura, who wasn't very precise)
  161. # [10:19] <Hixie> headers="" can't point to a <td> because we flipped the "cells that are both data and headers should be <td>" to "should be <th>" to improve accessibility
  162. # [10:21] <Hixie> headers="" isn't allowed on <th> because it hadn't been shown that it was necessary, though maybe data since then has changed that, i haven't checked
  163. # [10:21] <Hixie> (i'm doing studies to see what the Web can tell us on the matter as we speak)
  164. # [10:24] <annevk2> btw, did you see sicking's message that the Web Workers demos spell data as message?
  165. # [10:24] <Hixie> yeah
  166. # [10:24] <Hixie> someone should remind me of that when i work on that part of the spec, if i forget :-)
  167. # [10:24] <Hixie> i wish aa and sicking would make their mind up about workers though
  168. # [10:27] * Hixie wonders where to put the <dfn> for min/max/step given that those attributes are different in each case they apply
  169. # [10:28] <Hixie> where's mike
  170. # [10:28] <annevk2> in Australia
  171. # [10:29] * annevk2 is reminded of TR/ publication
  172. # [10:32] <hsivonen> whoa. I should have checked the status of headers in spec before replying.
  173. # [10:33] <hsivonen> what is the argument about then? chains?
  174. # [10:33] <Hixie> they want headers="" on <th> so they can point to other <th>s (and maybe <td>s?)
  175. # [10:33] <Hixie> and they might well be right
  176. # [10:33] <Hixie> i haven't actually gone through their feedback yet
  177. # [10:34] <Hixie> there are 70 e-mails on the subject waiting in my folder
  178. # [10:34] <Hixie> 70!
  179. # [10:34] <annevk2> people are using html5lib: http://simonwillison.net/2008/Sep/24/htmlwhitelist/
  180. # [10:34] * annevk2 is surprised
  181. # [10:35] <Hixie> apparently though they think that somehow their pet issue, which affects a tiny, tiny fraction of the web (so few pages that when i do studies of this subject matter i have to use larger-than-usual samples from google's index), deserves some sort of fast-track treatment
  182. # [10:36] <Hixie> i haven't worked out on what grounds, given that what they're asking for is already implemented (that's one of the reasons they use to argue for it)
  183. # [10:37] <Hixie> and given the utter disdain i got from them when i fast-tracked their last pet issue (img alt), i am not at all inclined to put them ahead of the people who actually politely work on far more important and more pressing issues
  184. # [10:39] * Hixie receives another e-mail on the subject (from hsivonen) -- 71 e-mails...
  185. # [10:39] <hsivonen> oops. I cited the whatwg URL on public-html
  186. # [10:40] <Hixie> annevk2: dewitt works with me, i was probably the one who brought it to his attention
  187. # [10:40] <BenMillard> Hixie, it's fair to describe data table header association as being one of my pet issues. :)
  188. # [10:41] <BenMillard> Hixie, although I'm well aware it's not a pressing issue in the context of HTML5, so I'm fine with it having a longer cycle of review
  189. # [10:41] <Hixie> having pet issues is fine, it's the crazies who want it prioritised above all else that get to me
  190. # [10:41] <Hixie> i mean i have plenty of pet issues, e.g. Web Socket, but I don't bring them to the front of the queue
  191. # [10:41] <Hixie> I mean, Web Socket probably had the longest delay of anything in the spec so far
  192. # [10:42] * Hixie gets off his soapbox and goes back to working out wtf <input type=datetime min/max/step> do
  193. # [10:44] <BenMillard> Hixie, yeah a couple of website jobs and another pet project are ahead of any HTML5 in my personal queue atm
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  196. # [10:50] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: i always cite the whatwg url on public-html :)
  197. # [10:50] <zcorpan_> if i am to cite the spec
  198. # [10:50] * Hixie too
  199. # [10:50] <Hixie> the whatwg spec has far more features
  200. # [10:50] <Hixie> like click-on-dfn
  201. # [10:50] <Hixie> which i use all the time now
  202. # [10:51] <annevk2> that's seriously useful
  203. # [10:51] <hsivonen> I always read the whatwg spec, but as a courtesy, I try to remember to substitute the W3C url before hitting send
  204. # [10:52] <Philip`> You can click on dfns? I never knew that :-/
  205. # [10:53] <Hixie> it's very recently added
  206. # [10:53] <Hixie> a week or so
  207. # [10:53] <Philip`> Ah
  208. # [10:53] <Hixie> i use it all the time now though
  209. # [10:53] <Hixie> it's really useful in the wf2 section
  210. # [10:53] <Hixie> or for finding out which elements are flow-level, etc
  211. # [10:53] <Philip`> I guess it doesn't work so well in the multipage version
  212. # [10:54] <Hixie> indeed not
  213. # [10:54] <BenMillard> I expect clickable navigation things to use <a href>.
  214. # [10:54] <BenMillard> <dfn><a href>...</a></dfn> perhaps
  215. # [10:55] <Philip`> (and the single-page version has awful performance and freezes for tens of seconds after loading, presumably while it's computing all these cross-references)
  216. # [10:55] <Hixie> actually no
  217. # [10:55] <Hixie> the freezing is caused by the status boxes being spawned
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  219. # [10:55] <Hixie> the dfn links are calculated asynchronously in small batches
  220. # [10:56] <Hixie> and shouldn't cause slowness
  221. # [10:56] <Hixie> i should rewrite the status thing to be async too
  222. # [10:57] <BenMillard> <dfn><a href> could happen while the spec is being generated? that would reduce the amount of work every UA must do when it visits
  223. # [10:58] <BenMillard> and it could support the multi-page version quite easily
  224. # [10:59] <hsivonen> was the change that allowed headers not marked as conformance-checker-sensitive?
  225. # [10:59] <annevk2> BenMillard, that doesn't give the same feature at all, did you try it?
  226. # [10:59] <hsivonen> I'm trying to track how I managed to miss it
  227. # [10:59] <Hixie> BenMillard: yeah, i was going to ask gsnedders to do something along these lines when we were transferred over to his script
  228. # [10:59] <Hixie> hsivonen: not sure
  229. # [10:59] <Hixie> hsivonen: if so, i apologise
  230. # [10:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: np. I just wanted to check my script wasn't broken
  231. # [11:00] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  232. # [11:00] <Hixie> i was looking at my table headers implementation earlier
  233. # [11:00] <Hixie> and noticed i wrote it in june 2007 or so
  234. # [11:00] <Hixie> and realised in great sadness that that meant i had over a year of updates to apply
  235. # [11:00] <Hixie> and decided it wasn't worth it
  236. # [11:00] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  237. # [11:01] <Philip`> Hixie: I don't remember it being so slow when it was just doing status boxes; now it spends about 70 seconds at 100% CPU load with the browser (Opera 9.5) being almost entirely unresponsive
  238. # [11:01] <Hixie> but anyway it does i mean i narrowed it down and it happened sometime in the last year and a half!
  239. # [11:01] <Hixie> hope that helps!
  240. # [11:01] <Hixie> Philip`: woah
  241. # [11:01] <Hixie> Philip`: sounds like a bug
  242. # [11:01] <Hixie> Philip`: i don't notice anything more than a second or so of slowness in webkit
  243. # [11:02] <Philip`> In Firefox 2 it's more like 5 seconds
  244. # [11:02] <Philip`> so I suppose something's interacting badly with Opera
  245. # [11:03] <Hixie> and firefox 2 is slow on html5
  246. # [11:03] <BenMillard> annevk2, I was guessing based on Hixie's description of it...trying Fx2 on the HTML5 single-page spec now
  247. # [11:03] <BenMillard> Hixie, yeah it's been running 4 minutes for me...now
  248. # [11:03] <Hixie> woah
  249. # [11:03] <Hixie> y'all should start using webkit, apparently
  250. # [11:03] <Hixie> i didn't realise html5 was so slow in other browsers
  251. # [11:03] <Hixie> that's insane
  252. # [11:04] <Hixie> it's really snappy in webkit builds
  253. # [11:04] <Philip`> Nobody makes WebKit work nicely on Linux
  254. # [11:04] <Hixie> browsers on linux suck
  255. # [11:04] <BenMillard> Hixie, I've dragged a window across Firefox 2 and it's not repainting and there's no "A script is stuck" message box, so I guess it's still doing stuff and hasn't died
  256. # [11:04] <Hixie> (maybe chrome for linux will help that)
  257. # [11:04] <Philip`> and even if they did, I'd still use Opera, because changing would be far too traumatic
  258. # [11:04] <Hixie> heh
  259. # [11:04] <Philip`> Hixie: I'd prefer a browser that has features, i.e. not Chrome
  260. # [11:05] <Hixie> ah well can't help you there
  261. # [11:05] <roc> Fx3 (and trunk) takes a while to load the HTML5 page for me, but it doesn't lock up
  262. # [11:05] <Hixie> Philip`: (like what features?)
  263. # [11:06] <BenMillard> roc, the titlebar of Firefox 2 now says (Not Responding)
  264. # [11:06] <BenMillard> roc, after nearly 7 minutes
  265. # [11:06] <roc> try 3
  266. # [11:06] <BenMillard> roc, I can't stand the UI of 3, sorry
  267. # [11:06] <Hixie> what os?
  268. # [11:06] <BenMillard> Hixie, XP SP3
  269. # [11:07] <zcorpan_> BenMillard: isnt't here a firefox 2 skin for firefox 3?
  270. # [11:07] <Hixie> yeah i was going to say, try a skin :-)
  271. # [11:07] <BenMillard> zcorpan_ & Hixie, I expected there to be one but couldn't find it when I looked the other month
  272. # [11:08] <BenMillard> I currently use Winestripe and that over-engineered tabs extension to make it sort of fit in with XP
  273. # [11:08] <Hixie> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/6898
  274. # [11:09] <Philip`> Hixie: (Ad blocking, mouse gestures, feed reading, the ability to quickly disable all stylesheets, etc)
  275. # [11:09] <BenMillard> Hixie, I found that one before. it doesn't fit in with XP...look at the tabs! :P
  276. # [11:10] <Philip`> Hixie: (where "etc" means I can't think of any more things, though I'd probably notice if they were missing :-) )
  277. # [11:10] <Hixie> BenMillard: i've no idea what xp looks like, the only xp i have access to is in a VM and has all the fancy UI disabled :-)
  278. # [11:10] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah i like access over style sheets, and chrome is missing that. the other features, can't say i like them or use them :-)
  279. # [11:13] <BenMillard> Hixie, I've used (and adored) the "Royale" theme that ships as the default with XP Media Centre Edition for a few years: http://projectcerbera.com/ui/windows/royale/royale.png (1,6000x1,200)
  280. # [11:13] <BenMillard> *1,600
  281. # [11:13] * Philip` can't survive without the left-click-right-click mouse gesture for 'back'
  282. # [11:13] <Hixie> BenMillard: i don't know how you can stand xp :-)
  283. # [11:13] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@72.14.224.1)
  284. # [11:14] <BenMillard> Hixie, I live in hope that one day things will get better. :)
  285. # [11:14] <Philip`> BenMillard: Needs more padding in Explorer :-p
  286. # [11:14] <Hixie> BenMillard: let me know how that turns out :-)
  287. # [11:15] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  288. # [11:16] <Philip`> Sadly Vista makes the Windows Classic theme (i.e. the one that's like Win95) unusable, because it has crazy toolbars that look awful if you're not using the Aero themes instead :-(
  289. # [11:18] <annevk2> zcorpan_, the security check is still there for adoptNode()
  290. # [11:21] <BenMillard> Hixie, after 21 minutes and 30 seconds, I think it's safe to conclude that Firefox 2.0.0.17 on XP has crashed on the single-page HTML5 spec (although multipage worked fine beforehand)
  291. # [11:22] <Hixie> weird
  292. # [11:24] <BenMillard> sent error report...but the "More information" link doesn't work even though the error message that pops up shows the URL and that URL does work...I guess Hixie's right about XP :P
  293. # [11:25] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  294. # [11:25] <Philip`> Browser bugs are meant to be exposed by HTML5 test suites, not by the spec document itself :-)
  295. # [11:27] <zcorpan_> annevk2: thanks
  296. # [11:27] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@c-24-130-13-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  297. # [11:28] <Dashiva> Philip`: You could combine the features, though. Make the spec text only appear properly in the correct rendering
  298. # [11:28] <BenMillard> Dashiva, that's basically what I experienced just now
  299. # [11:28] <annevk2> aah, "access control check" is already written in such a way that HTML5 can easily use it for <img>
  300. # [11:29] <annevk2> and the CSS Fonts Module for @font-face, etc.
  301. # [11:29] * annevk2 is pleased
  302. # [11:30] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl)
  303. # [11:39] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/55687cf80809250152o796d6b74n57ce73e01eccf110@mail.gmail.com is incredible
  304. # [11:40] <annevk2> he only ever flames on public-html
  305. # [11:40] <Hixie> i just love the fact that he says he can't find any way for headers="" to be useful without chaining
  306. # [11:43] <Hixie> BenMillard: i just loaded html5 in a VMWare XP box with Firefox2, and it didn't even stall, loaded in a few seconds.
  307. # [11:44] <Hixie> this is on a quite old mac book pro, with the VMWare instance having at most one CPU and not much memory.
  308. # [11:45] <nessy> Hixie: you mentioned your talk being published through YouTube - is that up yet?
  309. # [11:47] <Hixie> seems not
  310. # [11:48] <annevk2> will it be on googletechtalks?
  311. # [11:48] <BenMillard> Hixie, meh. Steve is wrong, specifically because irregular data tables can use <th> for one layer of header cells and associate the relevant <td>s with them using headers+id (which I imagine is the use case you had for adding that ability)
  312. # [11:49] <BenMillard> along with using headers+id as a "patch" for largely regular cases which include an irregularity which Smart Headers, scope and other features aren't able to fill
  313. # [11:49] <Hixie> annevk2: i assume so
  314. # [11:50] <Hixie> BenMillard: there are bazillions of examples where headers="" can be used without chaining, absolutely
  315. # [11:50] * Joins: abarth (n=abarth@c-67-188-43-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  316. # [11:50] <annevk2> hey abarth
  317. # [11:50] <abarth> hi annevk2 !
  318. # [11:51] <abarth> i read that you've been having fun registering HTTP headers :)
  319. # [11:51] <annevk2> they should move it to a wiki :)
  320. # [11:52] <annevk2> "expert review" is a silly concept anyway, it's in a spec that gets review from experts already
  321. # [11:52] <abarth> i think you're an expert, you should review it
  322. # [11:52] <Hixie> BenMillard: (many of them -- at least two thirds of tables that use headers="" today according to a study i did last year -- can be done with scope="" too, but still)
  323. # [11:52] <annevk2> hehe
  324. # [11:53] <Hixie> annevk2: more review is always good :-)
  325. # [11:53] <annevk2> not if it doesn't happen
  326. # [11:53] <Hixie> then it's not more review :-)
  327. # [11:53] <annevk2> and if it's the only way to get some header names on a page
  328. # [11:53] <annevk2> Hixie, :p
  329. # [11:53] <hsivonen> is there only one resident expert for a given registry at IANA?
  330. # [11:54] <annevk2> I think it's just whoever signs up to the mailing list
  331. # [11:54] * Quits: Thezilch (n=fuz007@cpe-76-171-111-7.socal.res.rr.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  332. # [11:54] <hsivonen> oh. I thought there were appointed guardians of IANA registries
  333. # [11:57] * Quits: annevk2 (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  334. # [11:57] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  335. # [11:57] * jgraham complains that the Tokyo subway map is hard to understand
  336. # [11:57] * Quits: annevk2 (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  337. # [11:58] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  338. # [12:01] <annevk2> test
  339. # [12:02] <abarth> test succeeds
  340. # [12:02] <hsivonen> hmm. It seems that I have noticed the headers/scope spec change, implemented it, and forgotten about it
  341. # [12:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: so probably not a problem with the spec annotations...
  342. # [12:02] <Hixie> ok i have some stats on tables
  343. # [12:03] <Hixie> out of about 8 billion pages, guess how many had a <th> element with a headers="" attribute
  344. # [12:03] <hsivonen> 200?
  345. # [12:04] <annevk2> 10000?
  346. # [12:04] <annevk2> (billion is 1E9 here right?)
  347. # [12:04] <Hixie> and then guess how many of those pages had no cells with duplicate IDs, no headers="" pointing to non-cells, no headers="" pointing to cells in other tables, no headers="" pointing to themselves, and no cycles.
  348. # [12:05] <annevk2> 2%
  349. # [12:05] <Hixie> (yes, on the order of 8e9 pages)
  350. # [12:05] <hsivonen> 5?
  351. # [12:05] * jgraham thought html4 didn't really encourage headers on th
  352. # [12:06] <Hixie> i found 350,000 pages with <th headers=""> (<0.005%), and about 150,000 had none of the above errors (less than half)
  353. # [12:06] * annevk2 is less and less confusing short scale and long scale
  354. # [12:07] <annevk2> that's a whole lot better than longdesc, but that's not saying much
  355. # [12:07] <hsivonen> looks like I was too pessimistic ;-)
  356. # [12:07] * annevk2 too
  357. # [12:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: aren't the errors trivially recoverable, though, except for the case where there are duplicate ids across tables and the other-table-id comes in document order first, so that smart recovery couldn't use gEBI
  358. # [12:10] <Hixie> they're recoverable, sure
  359. # [12:10] <Hixie> but that doesn't mean the tables will be accessible
  360. # [12:10] <Hixie> which is the whole point here
  361. # [12:10] <hsivonen> Hixie: but are the 150000 tables accessible?
  362. # [12:10] <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/344 has a sample of the pages that the script found <th headers=""> on with no obvious problems
  363. # [12:11] <Hixie> so you can find out :-)
  364. # [12:11] * Hixie starts looking at them
  365. # [12:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: and the does headers/id after recovery make the remaining 200000 worse?
  366. # [12:12] <Hixie> no idea
  367. # [12:12] <Hixie> http://webopac.gosford.nsw.gov.au/libero/WebopacOpenURL.cls?DATA=GCL&ACTION=DISPLAY&RSN=4363
  368. # [12:13] <annevk2> headers="" was not needed on http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/FiveStrongDividendPayingStocks.aspx
  369. # [12:13] <Hixie> on the above one, headers="" is redundant in the first table and points to a header called "Field Name" in the second
  370. # [12:13] <Hixie> which is about as pointless a header as you can get
  371. # [12:14] <Hixie> http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/PovertyNowComesWithAColorTV.aspx misuses <th>
  372. # [12:14] <Philip`> 0.005% <th headers> is far more than I found :-(
  373. # [12:14] <Philip`> (I see it on one out of 130K pages)
  374. # [12:15] <Hixie> based on the sample urls, they're all on very "deep" pages
  375. # [12:15] <jgraham> http://www.maastricht.nl/maastricht/show/id=93271/notextonly=42282 almost certainly doesn't need @headers
  376. # [12:15] <Hixie> so likely not those you'd find in your sample source
  377. # [12:16] <Hixie> http://library.woollahra.nsw.gov.au/libero/WebOpac.cls?VERSION=2&ACTION=DISPLAY&RSN=74818&DATA=DWO&TOKEN=Y8uUcWNA859284&Z=1&SET=13 apparently has changed since my script looked at it
  378. # [12:16] <Hixie> since i can't find headers="" on it
  379. # [12:16] <Philip`> (I see http://www.skydebanegaard.dk/ which seems to be referring to a cell in a different table)
  380. # [12:17] <Philip`> (though I'm not sure why it's necessarily a problem for headers to point to a different table)
  381. # [12:17] <Hixie> because it's not accessible to users who don't have TAs
  382. # [12:18] <Hixie> http://webopac.slub-dresden.de/libero/WebOpac.cls?LANG=DE&RSN=14195675&ACTION=DISPLAY&TOKEN=y7QBaahcVB3613 should just lose its <thead> altogether and not use headers="" at all
  383. # [12:19] * Joins: dotjay (n=dotjay@nov5th.plus.com)
  384. # [12:19] <Hixie> http://www.hildesheim.de/hildesheim/buergerservice/rathaus/soziales.shtml points to <th>s that are empty!
  385. # [12:20] <BenMillard> dotjay, hi you've joined us during an accessibility research session :)
  386. # [12:20] <dotjay> BenMillard: Marvellous. :)
  387. # [12:21] <Hixie> i don't understand the language on http://www.kiesbeter.nl/patientenorganisaties/detail/tno-preventie-en-zorg/ to determine if it's useful or not
  388. # [12:21] <BenMillard> dotjay, http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080925#l-343 onwards
  389. # [12:21] <dotjay> BenMillard: Thanks. Will have a read in a moment.
  390. # [12:22] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@james-baillie-pc083-137.student-halls.leeds.ac.uk) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406]")
  391. # [12:22] <BenMillard> Hixie, looks like a profile for a company
  392. # [12:23] <Hixie> yeah i mean i don't understand the words in the headers to work out if they're useful or not
  393. # [12:23] <annevk2> Hixie, the kiesbeter.nl duplicates a lot
  394. # [12:23] <Hixie> (in the way that "field name" is blatently not useful)
  395. # [12:23] <annevk2> "Naam" means "Name"
  396. # [12:24] <BenMillard> Hixie, seems to be a regular layout which could use a blank top-left cell
  397. # [12:24] <annevk2> not sure why the table has the header "TNO, Preventie en Zorg" as that just duplicates information
  398. # [12:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: it may not be useful, but it's a case of chained headers :-)
  399. # [12:24] <annevk2> BenMillard, actually, the first row could be removed and it would be useful, but maybe the CMS software doesn't support that
  400. # [12:24] <Hixie> http://www4.mdr.de/www3/sport/ergebnisse/inhalt_e_del_m_08.shtml is the first one i've seen that'd arguably useful, but even there i'd argue that the user doesn't need to know that "Eisbären Berlin" is a "Mannschaft" since those reading the subject matter will almost certainly know that anyway
  401. # [12:24] <BenMillard> annevk2, yeah that's a good point. I guess it doesn't need column headers at all
  402. # [12:25] <Hixie> hsivonen: hm?
  403. # [12:25] <annevk2> BenMillard, though even if it was kept, headers="" would not be needed there, and in fact it uses scope="row" too!
  404. # [12:26] <annevk2> (which with a smart enough algorithm also wouldn't be needed)
  405. # [12:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: Omschrijving is a heading and Naam is a heading for Omschrijving
  406. # [12:26] <BenMillard> annevk2, yeah it's a regular layout so it only needs plain <th> and a simple-as-mud algorithm
  407. # [12:26] <Hixie> http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/FiveStrongDividendPayingStocks.aspx makes the same mistake as the other moneycentral page
  408. # [12:26] <BenMillard> annevk2, what does "gezondheidsonderzoek" and the other entries in that cell mean? Is their use of lowercase significant or just lazy?
  409. # [12:26] <Hixie> hsivonen: sure, but we shouldn't add the feature if it doesn't actually help when used, so does it help?
  410. # [12:27] <annevk2> sicking, https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=20879 (also interesting for aboodman)
  411. # [12:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: I guess you'd have to ask an AT user whether it helps in that particular case
  412. # [12:28] <annevk2> BenMillard, it's a list of things they do, "gezondsheidsonderzoek" means "health research" or some such
  413. # [12:28] <annevk2> (without the s after gezond)
  414. # [12:28] <Hixie> http://www.afpa.fr/formations/derniere-minute/places-disponibles-en-formation.html?tri=date&domain=M has the same redundancy as the mdr.de one -- the heading is obvious given the contents of the cells, so doesn't have to be repeated each time
  415. # [12:29] <BenMillard> annevk2, cool I can guess what other languages say from context. :)
  416. # [12:29] <Hixie> same with http://sport.ard.de/sp/komponente/ergebnisse/tabellen/tennis.jsp?liga=WTA%7CTier+III%7CBali&runde=Damen%7CEinzel%7C1.+Runde
  417. # [12:30] <Hixie> http://neuerwerbungen.slub-dresden.de/cgi-bin/getrsn.pl?rsn=14223077 is the same as the earlier one on the same domain
  418. # [12:30] <Hixie> http://library.bankstown.nsw.gov.au/libero/WebopacOpenURL.cls?DATA=DBK&ACTION=DISPLAY&RSN=709279 too
  419. # [12:30] <annevk2> so I guess most add the complexity because browsers and screen readers are silly with respect to table headers
  420. # [12:31] <annevk2> not because it's actually needed by the tables
  421. # [12:31] <BenMillard> Hixie, I noticed tables tend to have consistent authoring throughout a website, but there are exceptions.
  422. # [12:31] <Hixie> yeah
  423. # [12:31] <Hixie> what does lang=nl Praktijknaam mean?
  424. # [12:32] <BenMillard> annevk2, there's also a sense among content providers (not HTML authors) I've worked with that a table isn't really a table unless it has a complete set of column headers, even if they are useless.
  425. # [12:32] <Hixie> looks like the thead in http://www.kiesbeter.nl/eerstelijnszorg/Dietist/detail/thuiszorg_het_friese_land_4/ is redundant, assuming "Praktijknaam" means "name" or some sort
  426. # [12:32] <annevk2> it means "name of the practice"
  427. # [12:33] <annevk2> which is "Thuiszorg het Friese Land" in that table
  428. # [12:34] <Hixie> oh
  429. # [12:34] <annevk2> this was also the case in the first kiesbeter.nl example
  430. # [12:34] <Hixie> then that's just wrong
  431. # [12:34] <Hixie> shouldn't be a <th> at all
  432. # [12:34] <annevk2> yes, both are actually completely wrong
  433. # [12:34] <BenMillard> I'd say they shouldn't even be tables, as the type of data in each cell is pretty clear from the data itself
  434. # [12:35] <Hixie> http://www.maastricht.nl/maastricht/show/id=93271/textonly=42282 is wrong too
  435. # [12:35] <annevk2> I'm guessing the CMS works in a way that the first row is mandatory and always headers
  436. # [12:35] <BenMillard> like an address is obviously an address as it follows the typographic conventions of an address and has place names and area codes in it
  437. # [12:36] <Hixie> and http://www.sestao.eu/agenda/agenda.asp?sestao_idioma=EU&nivelMenu=6&actualMenu=14&dia_seleccionado=24/5/2008&p=12 is a calendar, with the months pointing at the year
  438. # [12:36] <Hixie> which seems unnecessary, but is probably the closest to a valid use case in the set
  439. # [12:37] <BenMillard> summary="Egutegia"
  440. # [12:37] <Hixie> my conclusion is that the data doesn't support the assertion that headers="" is indispensable on <th>
  441. # [12:37] <Hixie> maybe, in some cases, it's marginally useful
  442. # [12:37] <annevk2> Hixie, maastricht.nl doesn't use headers="" or <td>; I think that page works fine probably if screen readers just read from LTR TTB
  443. # [12:37] <Hixie> but that's as much as this data suggests
  444. # [12:37] <annevk2> I meant, or <th>
  445. # [12:37] <Hixie> annevk2: be sure to look at the textonly version
  446. # [12:38] <annevk2> hmm
  447. # [12:38] <Hixie> anyway, that's enough time wasted on this for now, back to forms...
  448. # [12:39] <annevk2> oh yeah, when I use curl I get indeed something that's wrong
  449. # [12:39] <annevk2> may I ever fail at my current job, I can always start fixing random sites on the Web
  450. # [12:40] * hsivonen wonders if fixing random sites pays rent/mortgage
  451. # [12:42] <annevk2> ok, not so random then :)
  452. # [12:45] <annevk2> oh shit, lunch
  453. # [12:50] <BenMillard> hsivonen, fixing sites (usually CSS layout problems) is part of my day job and pays £25 per hour but work comes in at irregular intervals.
  454. # [12:50] <BenMillard> auditing government websites against web standards and writing a report pays the same and is a bit more regular
  455. # [12:51] <BenMillard> I know people who charge incredibly larger amounts for doing either type of work, though
  456. # [12:51] <hsivonen> BenMillard: not random, though, I presume. Do people with broken sites find you or do you find them?
  457. # [12:52] <BenMillard> hsivonen, it's a bit of both.
  458. # [12:52] <hsivonen> it's encouraging that there's business in fixing broken stuff on the Web
  459. # [12:52] <BenMillard> yeah, I think so :)
  460. # [12:53] <BenMillard> my boss (http://www.sdesign1.com) sometimes approaches places, other times people we've worked with before come back to us for more, sometimes other agencies subcontract us
  461. # [12:54] <BenMillard> there's definitely work to be had doing that kind of thing, but the site commissioner needs to care about it in the first place
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  466. # [13:12] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: the <ol><li></li> ...rest of page... case isn't the html parser though, is it? or maybe you could detect that in the parser
  467. # [13:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I was thinking of making the fatal check in the tree builder
  468. # [13:13] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: btw, could the bugmail include full URLs?
  469. # [13:13] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: ok
  470. # [13:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I'll try to find the configuration parameter
  471. # [13:15] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I have now set the urlbase bugzilla parameter
  472. # [13:15] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: thanks
  473. # [13:19] <zcorpan_> Hixie: perhaps <dfn>s should have tabindex=0
  474. # [13:20] <Hixie> on the long term, as i was telling BenMillard, my plan is to do all this statically with the spec gen tool
  475. # [13:20] * Quits: abarth (n=abarth@c-67-188-43-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("Leaving")
  476. # [13:21] <Hixie> at which point, we should consider this stuff
  477. # [13:21] <Hixie> until then, i'm happy to just wait
  478. # [13:22] <annevk2> by static you mean generating an awful lot of additional markup to be downloaded?
  479. # [13:22] <Hixie> yes
  480. # [13:22] <Hixie> it'll be offset by the removal of the data templates section :-P
  481. # [13:23] <annevk2> i'll make sure to measure that
  482. # [13:23] <Hixie> :-P
  483. # [13:23] <Hixie> anyway, the bonus is it'll then work in the static copy too
  484. # [13:23] <Hixie> multipage even
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  487. # [13:27] <annevk2> it's too bad Content-Location failed
  488. # [13:28] <annevk2> I was thinking of setting up an HTML5 archive service that would allow you to get a given SVN version
  489. # [13:28] <annevk2> would've been a lot easier with Content-Location
  490. # [13:37] <Philip`> Like using something like Trac, where you can view any revision of the repository?
  491. # [13:39] <annevk2> not all resources are in the repository
  492. # [13:46] <BenMillard> Hixie, another bonus is links are a more familiar UI for navigating between and within documents on the web.
  493. # [13:47] <Hixie> well, links are what i use to do the actual navigating
  494. # [13:47] <Hixie> but there has to be some way to show the links
  495. # [13:49] <zcorpan_> Hixie: what's a "value URL"?
  496. # [13:49] <Hixie> should be valid
  497. # [13:49] <Hixie> will fix
  498. # [13:52] <BenMillard> Hixie, I'm looking at the single-page version in Opera and see how it works now
  499. # [13:53] * Parts: kangax (n=kangax@ool-182f8118.dyn.optonline.net)
  500. # [13:55] * Quits: dotjay (n=dotjay@nov5th.plus.com) ("/me ⏏")
  501. # [13:57] <Hixie> ok bed time
  502. # [13:57] <Hixie> nn
  503. # [13:58] <BenMillard> Hixie & annevk2, so <a href title="Referenced by ..."><dfn>...</dfn></a> could work directly when there's only 1 reference, but for multiple references <a onclick title="View References"><dfn>...</dfn></a> would show the popup list of links?
  504. # [13:58] <BenMillard> (or something to that effect)
  505. # [13:59] <zcorpan_> BenMillard: what's wrong with <dfn onclick>?
  506. # [14:00] <annevk2> I don't think <a href="..."><dfn> makes sense, I'd rather have <dfn onclick> consistently
  507. # [14:01] * annevk2 grmbls at the access control cache stuff
  508. # [14:01] <BenMillard> zcorpan_, if it's "something to that effect" then I'd say it's fine
  509. # [14:02] <zcorpan_> i'd like to be able to open the popup with the keyboard
  510. # [14:05] <annevk2> krijnh, https links don't work and the link in http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20080816 is also wrong
  511. # [14:08] <BenMillard> zcorpan_, maybe <a onclick> should be focusable like <a href> is? would doing that for <dfn onclick> also make sense?
  512. # [14:09] <annevk2> yes
  513. # [14:09] <zcorpan_> BenMillard: not sure all onclicks should be focussable by default but you could set tabIndex = '0'
  514. # [14:10] <zcorpan_> e.g. i might want to set onclick on a container and do something with the target without wanting the container to be focusable
  515. # [14:11] <BenMillard> zcorpan_, how would a non-pointer user operate that feature?
  516. # [14:12] <zcorpan_> BenMillard: e.g. by activating links in the container
  517. # [14:12] <krijnh> annevk2: somebody smarter than me should fix the regex making those links
  518. # [14:12] <annevk2> krijnh, https should work by s? or something no?
  519. # [14:12] <BenMillard> zcorpan_, I thought <a href> was allowed more exotic content now, so you could wrap some (or all) of cases in <a href> ?
  520. # [14:12] <annevk2> or [s], hmm
  521. # [14:13] * annevk2 sighs
  522. # [14:13] <krijnh> The issue is bigger though
  523. # [14:13] <zcorpan_> BenMillard: you can't nest links
  524. # [14:13] <zcorpan_> BenMillard: consider a menu with expandable items
  525. # [14:13] <zcorpan_> BenMillard: without script you fall back to server side expansion
  526. # [14:13] <annevk2> maybe it should be an app-engine service
  527. # [14:14] <BenMillard> zcorpan_, oh, I see
  528. # [14:14] <annevk2> pass a string of text and it will linkify stuff
  529. # [14:14] <krijnh> annevk2: https links work now
  530. # [14:14] <annevk2> sweet
  531. # [14:14] <krijnh> Testing http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ testing
  532. # [14:14] <krijnh> Testing http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/' testing
  533. # [14:14] <krijnh> Hmm
  534. # [14:15] <annevk2> it shouldn't consider - to be special, except when it's followed by a space or EOL
  535. # [14:15] <BenMillard> zcorpan_, but if that expansion is useful to pointer users, it would also be useful to non-pointer users? so the onclick should still be focusable so they can activate it to expand/collapse that section, or just Tab past it to the next section of navigation?
  536. # [14:16] <annevk2> annevk2, well, and ., etc. :p
  537. # [14:16] <zcorpan_> BenMillard: it is available to non-pointer users
  538. # [14:16] <krijnh> Yah, teh win \o/
  539. # [14:16] <zcorpan_> BenMillard: activating a link with the keyboard sends a click event
  540. # [14:17] <zcorpan_> BenMillard: you wouldn't want to focus the *container*
  541. # [14:17] <annevk2> krijnh, maybe you should open source the log converter script so we can suggest improvements more easily
  542. # [14:17] <krijnh> First suggestion would be: "Rewrite this, you fool!"
  543. # [14:17] <krijnh> :)
  544. # [14:17] <krijnh> (from scratch, that is)
  545. # [14:18] <krijnh> Testin' http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/.
  546. # [14:19] <Philip`> krijnh: Put the live source code on a wiki, so we can insert backdoor security vulnerabili-- uh, I mean bug fixes
  547. # [14:19] <krijnh> Enough spam for today
  548. # [14:19] <annevk2> Testin' http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/,
  549. # [14:19] <krijnh> FU! :P
  550. # [14:19] <annevk2> win win win
  551. # [14:19] <krijnh> And fixed
  552. # [14:20] <krijnh> Although http://foobar.com/?p=this,sucks http://foobar.com/?p=this,sucks&this=aswell probably breaks now
  553. # [14:20] <krijnh> Ow wow
  554. # [14:20] <annevk2> you should patent this and sell the algorithm, it's better than Opera Mail and my IRC client at this point
  555. # [14:21] <annevk2> Testing http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/"
  556. # [14:21] <krijnh> Opera management: when reading this, you can hire m e;)
  557. # [14:21] <krijnh> me even
  558. # [14:21] * Philip` 's IRC client never makes mistakes in detecting URLs
  559. # [14:21] <Philip`> (since it doesn't try detecting them at all)
  560. # [14:22] <BenMillard> all those seem to work in Opera's IRC client (which is what I use)
  561. # [14:22] <Philip`> (Click-and-drag to select and then copy-and-paste works perfectly well)
  562. # [14:22] <zcorpan_> BenMillard: not the apostrophe test
  563. # [14:23] <zcorpan_> Testing http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)
  564. # [14:23] <BenMillard> oh yeah, it was stuck to the end of the / so I didn't see it :P
  565. # [14:23] <zcorpan_> Testing http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)x
  566. # [14:23] <BenMillard> there are URLs which end with (foo), such as the disambiguation at the end of of some Wikipedia URLs
  567. # [14:23] <zcorpan_> hey maybe it'll work for live dom viewer urls by now
  568. # [14:24] <krijnh> http://disambiguation.com/wiki(foo)
  569. # [14:24] <krijnh> Bleh
  570. # [14:24] <BenMillard> Opera IRC gets that wrong
  571. # [14:24] <annevk2> krijnh too :/
  572. # [14:24] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-137-162.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  573. # [14:24] <krijnh> Yeah
  574. # [14:24] <annevk2> I guess you need to do () matching and such :/
  575. # [14:24] <BenMillard> if there's a ( in the URL, I guess you should include one )
  576. # [14:25] <Philip`> It should work in most cases if you only match balanced parentheses, which is provably impossible in regular expressions but fortunately real regular expressions aren't regular
  577. # [14:25] <krijnh> Foo sucks (as seen on http://foo.com/)
  578. # [14:25] <krijnh> I think Philip` is the only one using ( and ) in this channel :)
  579. # [14:26] <krijnh> Oh well
  580. # [14:26] <krijnh> This is Good Enough(tm)
  581. # [14:26] <krijnh> You can continue your silly chattery stuff :)
  582. # [14:26] <BenMillard> it's certainly an invaluable service you provide
  583. # [14:26] <BenMillard> archiving our silly chattery stuff
  584. # [14:26] <BenMillard> the world thanks you!
  585. # [14:26] <krijnh> Nothing compared to what you guys are doing :)
  586. # [14:27] <krijnh> </slimeball>
  587. # [14:27] <BenMillard> :D
  588. # [14:27] <krijnh> I should ask some Mozilla funding for these logs ;)
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  590. # [14:28] <annevk2> a server with a bit more speed wouldn't hurt
  591. # [14:28] <krijnh> I think it's my internet connection, not my server
  592. # [14:33] <annevk2> I find http://juicystudio.com/wcag/tables/nestedheaders.html highly confusing
  593. # [14:34] <annevk2> oh well, back to access control
  594. # [14:35] * Philip` doesn't see why it's confusing
  595. # [14:35] <krijnh> If you want more feedback on that, rename it to accessibility control
  596. # [14:38] <annevk2> Philip`, maybe I'm bad with tables :)
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  598. # [14:49] <zcorpan_> the summary in that table seems useful for anyone
  599. # [14:50] <annevk2> hmm, you side tracked me again; looks like a <caption> to me
  600. # [14:50] * annevk2 back to caches
  601. # [15:17] <jgraham> That email from Gez was pretty useful, it actually identified a specific problem which could be good to consider
  602. # [15:18] <jgraham> since the solution in this case is pretty obvious and might well generalise
  603. # [15:22] <annevk2> i was thinking the same
  604. # [15:22] * annevk2 made some progress meanwhile
  605. # [15:31] <zcorpan_> jgraham: i thought the smart headers algorithm did the right thing in that case
  606. # [15:32] <zcorpan_> at least iirc it was a case ben and i were discussing when he was looking in to this first
  607. # [15:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: the example was contrived, so there's insufficient data regarding what the real-world Right Thing is here
  608. # [15:33] * hsivonen expects Ben to have better data
  609. # [15:33] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: yes we had actual tables with the same thing except for columns iirc
  610. # [15:36] <zcorpan_> or perhaps it was a colspan case we were discussing
  611. # [15:36] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Maybe it got lost in the great smart foo rewrite that I did
  612. # [15:37] <zcorpan_> jgraham: clearly we need regression tests :)
  613. # [15:37] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Does it make sense for columns also?
  614. # [15:37] <jgraham> zcorpan_: I had regression tests at one point but I don't know what I did with them
  615. # [15:37] * jgraham was sure he checked them in to svn
  616. # [15:38] <zcorpan_> jgraham: yeah in the tables we looked at it was columns
  617. # [15:39] <zcorpan_> but this was so long ago i don't remember the details
  618. # [15:40] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Should be fixed now
  619. # [15:41] <zcorpan_> jgraham: cool
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  621. # [15:46] <zcorpan_> hmm actually
  622. # [15:46] <zcorpan_> it doesn't work with http://projectcerbera.com/web/study/2007/tables/clark2006/06-gui/minimal
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  625. # [15:49] <zcorpan_> jgraham: btw, would it make sense to preserve dir="rtl"?
  626. # [15:49] <zcorpan_> jgraham: in the inspector
  627. # [15:53] <zcorpan_> maybe it was this case i was thinking of http://projectcerbera.com/web/study/2007/tables/clark2006/11-controls/minimal
  628. # [15:54] <zcorpan_> where headers of the same width would be skipped after seeing a TD in between
  629. # [15:56] <zcorpan_> http://projectcerbera.com/web/study/2007/tables/clark2006/19-movies/minimal is another case where it fails
  630. # [15:57] <zcorpan_> dunno about http://projectcerbera.com/web/study/2007/tables/clark2006/23-watches/minimal
  631. # [15:57] <zcorpan_> http://projectcerbera.com/web/study/2007/tables/finance/01-wisc-rev/minimal another example of the case i was probably thinking of
  632. # [15:58] <zcorpan_> and http://projectcerbera.com/web/study/2007/tables/finance/02-wisc-alloc/minimal
  633. # [15:59] <zcorpan_> and http://projectcerbera.com/web/study/2007/tables/thatcher/01-water/minimal
  634. # [16:00] <zcorpan_> http://projectcerbera.com/web/study/2007/tables/thatcher/02-monitor/minimal might be a case of a "conceptual header data cell"
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  636. # [16:02] <annevk2> I'm a bit uncomfortable with the statement that intranet usage should be given as much weight as Web usage... They're quite different after all
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  641. # [16:06] <hsivonen> annevk2: they indeed are quite different. However, are Google's apps more like intranet apps or more like the Web?
  642. # [16:07] <hsivonen> I'd expect Web technology to be for the Web and intranets be an incidental spillover--not a design target.
  643. # [16:09] <hsivonen> in fact, so far it seems that bad design happens when intranets become the design target rather than the spillover
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  646. # [16:17] <annevk2> hsivonen, lots of intranets are a "design target"
  647. # [16:18] <annevk2> hsivonen, IE serves two different markets, the intranet and the Web, one of the issues the IE Team is having
  648. # [16:20] <smedero> Don
  649. # [16:20] <smedero> erm
  650. # [16:20] <smedero> (itchy trigger finger)
  651. # [16:20] <hsivonen> annevk2: isn't it exactly a problem that IE has two markets to serve?
  652. # [16:21] <hsivonen> annevk2: or more to the point: that their intranet market limits agility in the Web market
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  655. # [16:24] <hsivonen> interestingly, http://www.webaim.org/discussion/mail_message.php?id=10610 mentions axis
  656. # [16:25] <annevk2> hsivonen, yes, hence me being uncomfortable with it :)
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  661. # [16:53] <annevk2> reviews appreciated: http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/
  662. # [16:55] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  663. # [16:56] <Philip`> annevk2: s/JSRONRequest/JSONRequest/
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  667. # [17:06] <hsivonen> annevk2: is that version of the spec in Minefield nightlies?
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  670. # [17:10] <annevk2> hsivonen, sicking claims having it implemented, not sure it landed
  671. # [17:11] <hsivonen> annevk2: is now a sensible time to sync my server side impl, in your opinion?
  672. # [17:13] <annevk2> the author API should be stable (and I hope I'm right this time)
  673. # [17:14] <hsivonen> ok. I'll sync.
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  682. # [18:18] <BenMillard> Great Scot! My e-mail client just caught up with this thread: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Sep/thread.html#msg362
  683. # [18:18] * BenMillard is glad hsivonen wrote up that response for the list.
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  686. # [18:23] <BenMillard> LOL! http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/complexdatatable.html
  687. # [18:25] <annevk2> where you see LOL, I see more pain for implementors
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  689. # [18:30] <BenMillard> annevk2, I'm guessing any implementor would LOL at that table and therefore it won't get implemented.
  690. # [18:31] <annevk2> :p
  691. # [18:34] <BenMillard> like I said, I live in hope :)
  692. # [18:35] <annevk2> I'm not sure what the status of aria-labelledby is
  693. # [18:35] <annevk2> I do know people will misspell that attribute all the time
  694. # [18:36] <BenMillard> ...and use it to associate things which are right next to each other
  695. # [18:37] <annevk2> yeah, sometimes I suspect these WAI groups of making things intentionally complicated
  696. # [18:38] <annevk2> for instance, when ARIA was still full of namespaces
  697. # [18:38] <annevk2> (and ARIA itself is highly problematic too, of course, in terms of ease of usage etc., though some of that is mitigated by libraries)
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  699. # [18:40] <BenMillard> annevk2, I guess they haven't taken the red pill yet? (http://annevankesteren.nl/2007/04/html-red-pill)
  700. # [18:49] <annevk2> hmm, #html-wg discussing ownage of rel= values
  701. # [18:49] <annevk2> apparently the XHTML2 WG claims ownership
  702. # [18:49] <annevk2> fortunately none of it really impacts anything
  703. # [18:55] <smedero> annevk2: that would be this email in case you missed it: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Sep/0037.html
  704. # [18:57] <annevk2> hah
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  710. # [19:31] <BenMillard> I just checked the logs and saw the discussion about Smart Headers with spanned cells and suchlike
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  712. # [19:37] <BenMillard> Gez Lemon wrote: 'The table inspector reports "Budgeted", "Actual", and "Forecasted" as headers for the data in the columns "TCO", "ROI", and "NPV". That's not correct. The automatic association has assumed the headers run to the end of the row.' http://juicystudio.com/wcag/tables/nestedheaders.html
  713. # [19:38] <BenMillard> I think that is indeed a case zcorpan and I talked about way back last year
  714. # [19:39] <BenMillard> it was his idea to apply the same cleverness to rowspan that we had found useful for colspan, but based on observing real tables
  715. # [19:39] <BenMillard> s/but/both/
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  737. # [22:14] <gsnedders> Hixie: If you want me to do something, email me :P
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  744. # [22:40] <Hixie> gsnedders: i don't yet
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  748. # [23:41] <Hixie> 1e1 is scientific notation, 0.1e3 is engineering notation, what do we call "10" again?
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  750. # [23:45] <gsnedders> Hixie: Sanity.
  751. # [23:45] <Dashiva> Hixie: decimal notation?
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  753. # [23:46] <Hixie> Dashiva: aren't the other two also decimal notation?
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  755. # [23:47] <Dashiva> You could call it 'ordinary decimal notation' to be explicit
  756. # [23:47] <webben> Hixie: You could express it in a regex to be 100% specific maybe
  757. # [23:48] <Hixie> webben: oh it'll be expressed in detail, i just need a section title
  758. # [23:48] <Dashiva> decimal-digits-with-possible-minus-sign notation
  759. # [23:48] <webben> "Long decimal notation"?
  760. # [23:48] <Hixie> yeah see that becomes a bit verbose
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  762. # [23:48] <Hixie> "10" is shorter than both 1e1 and 0.1e3 :-P
  763. # [23:49] <Dashiva> Wikipedia article on scientific notation called it 'ordinary' when comparing
  764. # [23:49] <Hixie> hm ok
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  766. # [23:49] <Hixie> thanks
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  768. # [23:50] <webben> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22ordinary+decimal+notation%22&btnG=Search looks promising
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  770. # [23:51] <Hixie> hmm...
  771. # [23:51] <Hixie> looks like i can just do away with the ordinary form
  772. # [23:51] <Hixie> and support the scientific form
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  774. # [23:51] <Hixie> since i only use the ordinary form for new features in html5...
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  778. # Session Close: Fri Sep 26 00:00:00 2008

The end :)